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View Full Version : Reenactment (short film) of Kyle Dinkheller shooting **GRAPHIC**



KeeFus
07-10-2014, 06:30 PM
I've watched both the in-car camera and this reenactment...not much difference.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiNWDB2pXxk&feature=share

For those that are not familiar.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6z8q4lOrDU

41magfan
07-10-2014, 08:28 PM
Hard to watch, ain't it?

TR675
07-10-2014, 08:39 PM
I really hate this video, but there are a lot of lessons here.

More than anything else, watching this video in Tom Givens' class for the first time made me understand the concept of "mindset." I've said this before, but Givens' training is invaluable for the average citizen.

GJM
07-10-2014, 08:54 PM
Looked like a terrible situation that went from uncontrolled to grave in seconds. Not being in LE, I would be interested in the lessons beyond have back-up.

ldunnmobile
07-10-2014, 09:18 PM
Never seen this before. No words to describe the feelings these induce.

Dos Cylindros
07-10-2014, 09:22 PM
Looked like a terrible situation that went from uncontrolled to grave in seconds. Not being in LE, I would be interested in the lessons beyond have back-up.

There are MANY lessons to this video, the most important is mindset. This video gives me the chills every time I see it, and every time I show it to guys during use of force training. Every cop, and non-cop needs to visualize these scenarios in their mind BEFORE they happen for real. Decide in your mind where to draw the line between verbal commands and the use of force (any force) based on your local laws, physical fitness, armament and your perception of what may happen to you if you do not act to stop the chain of events unfolding in front of you.

I can tell you, based on my personal experiences as a full time LEO (16 years now), my personal line was crossed very early on in the video. I suspect the same holds true for many other LEO's on this forum. I'm not Monday morning quarterbacking Deputy Dinkheller, I am learning from what happened to him and trying to pass it on to others. I was told by another trainer that days prior to this incident, Deputy Dinkheller was "counseled" by a supervisor about his recent uses of force. There is speculation that this, amongst other factors played a role in his hesitance to shoot much earlier. I don't know this to be fact, but it is certainly worth taking into consideration. If I am incorrect in this piece of info, I hope somebody here may have more of an insiders account and can set it straight.

41magfan
07-10-2014, 09:39 PM
A quote that's been attributed to Einstein goes something like this: "Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity."

The good Col. from Arizona used to comment quite often on the "willingness" dynamic. It's a mental exercise that has nothing to do with the shooting part, but the willingness to use DF with purpose.

I personally know of at least three officers that didn't have this nailed down and it almost cost them their lives. Two of the three finally pulled it out and got on the sights and trigger and killed their attackers, but not before being wounded first. In one of these incidents, one of them was taken out of action by a headshot and his wounded partner had to deal with the bad-guy by himself. In all three cases, they had every reasonable advantage and they failed to capitalize on it due to their indecisiveness.

Being able and not willing is a recipe for disaster. One of my training mantras was "take control or get out of there." Failing to do one or the other gets a lot of officers killed.

TR675
07-10-2014, 09:42 PM
I'm not LE and welcome their input, but I think for an LE, an uncontrolled situation like this is grave from the get-go. The officer in this case displayed a marked reluctance to engage his assailant who was demonstrating unmistakable hostile intent, either with his hands, baton, pepper spray or with a firearm. The assailant retreated to his vehicle where he spent a great deal of time making what can only be described as extremely furtive movements while spurning direct commands from the officer. When the assailant produced an M1 carbine, the officer emptied his weapon to no effect. The assailant shot the officer multiple times. Although the officer did manage, in extremis, to wound the assailant in the stomach after reloading, the injury inflicted was not sufficient to prevent the assailant from closing the distance and shooting the officer through the eye at point blank range, killing him.

Interestingly, according to Givens, the assailant, currently on death row, has never expressed any remorse for his actions. He feels justified in murdering the officer because he was not shown sufficient "respect" during their encounter.

The lessons here for LE are obvious and this video is used as a training tool in police academies, etc. For citizens the lessons are less obvious, but if you give it some thought they are apparent.

Imagine if you were involved in a fender bender with an insane or violent person - like I was not too long ago. At what point are you, as a citizen, ready to respond with a an appropriate response to overt, spoken threats to your life? At what point are you ready to respond to overt, unspoken threats like the one in the video? Failing either of those, at what point do you get in your car and leave immediately? And once you've made the decision to engage, are you capable of doing what you need to do with your chosen instrument at the range you find yourself at?

The officer in this case was not prepared to answer any of those questions before they were asked. And if we, as card carrying good guys, aren't ready to answer them at a moment not of our choosing, then we cannot expect a different result.

I personally, in a similar situation, was not ready to answer those questions. That prompted me to seek out training from Givens and Southnarc. More than anything, I think the lesson to be learned here is to understand "mindset" and to know your limitations in that area and seek out the means to overcome them.

ETA: glad to see more authoritative responses in the time it took me to type this out.

ldunnmobile
07-10-2014, 09:42 PM
According to the reenactment, seems like there was a breakdown in each section of the HiTS triad: Mindset, Marksmanship, and Gun Handling/Tactics. IMO...

MSparks909
07-10-2014, 11:03 PM
Hard to watch, ain't it?

The screams are what gets me. Feeling a little nauseous now. At what point was the "line" crossed for others on this board? When the suspect advanced in a hostile manner I would have drawn my sidearm. Hindsight is 20/20, and I'm not LE, but I don't think I would have allowed him to return to his vehicle. Skipping that though, as soon as I saw a weapon, based on the previous hostile acts and failure to heed demands, I would have shot him.

tanner
07-10-2014, 11:58 PM
Looked like a terrible situation that went from uncontrolled to grave in seconds. Not being in LE, I would be interested in the lessons beyond have back-up.

I took two major lessons from that video.

1. Control your scene. When dealing with people first I ask for compliance. If that doesn't work, they get told what to do with an explanation as to the consequences of further non compliance if necessary. I am usually laid back and will take the time to talk people down, but that only goes if I feel like the situation is improving and not escalating. If things are still not going the way I want it to after that then it is time to act and act decisively. I choose a course of action that I am 100% certain that I am justified in taking so there is no hesitation on my part.

The physical fight should have started, at a minimum, when the subject charged the officer. Using 20/20 hindsight, that would have prevented the rifle from coming into play, but also it would have helped take back the initiative, stopping the subject from dictating the course of action.

2. Commitment to the use of force. Once you make the realization that you are fighting against a deadly threat, respond with your own attack using overwhelming violence. Do not de-escalate until the situation calls for it (which would be when you are fully in control).

KeeFus
07-11-2014, 06:11 AM
My take aways since I viewed the original video many years ago:

1. Hands on should have occured at the moment the suspect charged him/got in his face.

2. The moment the butt stock became visible he should have shot the guy. Waiting some ~40 seconds giving commands whilst the suspect prepared for a battle was way too long. Suspect stated he was a combat vet and was aggressive. Justifying deadly force the moment the suspect displayed a firearm would not have been an issue.

3. As others have already mentioned, mindset. Its the one thing that I've seen and experienced that determines the outcomes not only in deadly force situations but physical confrontations.

JHC
07-11-2014, 07:01 AM
. For citizens the lessons are less obvious, but if you give it some thought they are apparent.

Imagine if you were involved in a fender bender with an insane or violent person - like I was not too long ago. At what point are you, as a citizen, ready to respond with a an appropriate response to overt, spoken threats to your life? At what point are you ready to respond to overt, unspoken threats like the one in the video? Failing either of those, at what point do you get in your car and leave immediately? And once you've made the decision to engage, are you capable of doing what you need to do with your chosen instrument at the range you find yourself at?

The officer in this case was not prepared to answer any of those questions before they were asked. And if we, as card carrying good guys, aren't ready to answer them at a moment not of our choosing, then we cannot expect a different result.

I personally, in a similar situation, was not ready to answer those questions. That prompted me to seek out training from Givens and Southnarc. More than anything, I think the lesson to be learned here is to understand "mindset" and to know your limitations in that area and seek out the means to overcome them.

ETA: glad to see more authoritative responses in the time it took me to type this out.

When I share this video with some folks (non-LE but some in the Mil) I will be using this quote to get them thinking. Thank you.

Chuck Haggard
07-11-2014, 07:35 AM
I use this video in recruit school to show the trend that we see in LE so very often; If you use the correct ammount of force early you can often avoid having to use more force later.

In the words of one of my mentors, if they buy the ticket they need to get the ride, no discounts, no two-for-ones.

Had the deputy done something like use OC and then go hands on to arrest, or Taser, or had baton skills that actually worked (really poor baton skills are epidemic in LE across the board) then this would have never turned into a shooting. Bad guy was arrestable the very second he charged at the deputy.

Agreed the deputy should have started shooting the minute dude reached behind the seat of the truck.

I understand, through the grapevine, that Deputy Dinkheller had been disciplined in the recent past, just before this incident, for "excessive force" or some such thing, and that he was likely a bit worried about "getting into trouble". If true then he wouldn't be the first LEO that worried himself into an early grave.


I will add that the deputy could have even jumped in the car and hit reverse and kept himself alive, which for a CCW person in the fender-bender scenario would have been a really good idea.

JHC
07-11-2014, 07:42 AM
I use this video in recruit school to show the trend that we see in LE so very often; If you use the correct ammount of force early you can often avoid having to use more force later.

In the words of one of my mentors, if they buy the ticket they need to get the ride, no discounts, no two-for-ones.

Had the deputy done something like use OC and then go hands on to arrest, or Taser, or had baton skills that actually worked (really poor baton skills are epidemic in LE across the board) then this would have never turned into a shooting. Bad guy was arrestable the very second he charged at the deputy.

Agreed the deputy should have started shooting the minute dude reached behind the seat of the truck.

I understand, through the grapevine, that Deputy Dinkheller had been disciplined in the recent past, just before this incident, for "excessive force" or some such thing, and that he was likely a bit worried about "getting into trouble". If true then he wouldn't be the first LEO that worried himself into an early grave.


I will add that the deputy could have even jumped in the car and hit reverse and kept himself alive, which for a CCW person in the fender-bender scenario would have been a really good idea.

I rile some friends by almost always taking the LEO's side in publicized incidents - especially those involving video that initially to the casual observer look "excessive". I include Rodney King in that.

I personally like the movie "Deep Blue" as ridiculous as it's portrayal of a certain LAPD unit may be. Got that. But the lunch break scene with the Kurt Russell character's rant about the trend of taking away tactics that did work; then hanging them for using the tactics that don't work; makes the whole movie.

Chuck Haggard
07-11-2014, 07:51 AM
Ironically, and I point this out in a couple of the classes that I do, the LAPD guys who beat the crap out of Rodney (and make no mistake, that was a botched use of force on so many levels) actually saved his life. The CHP officer who initated the car stop would likely have shot him dead due to having no other viable alternative and being caught up in a serious disparity of force situation.

JHC
07-11-2014, 07:55 AM
Ironically, and I point this out in a couple of the classes that I do, the LAPD guys who beat the crap out of Rodney (and make no mistake, that was a botched use of force on so many levels) actually saved his life. The CHP officer who initated the car stop would likely have shot him dead due to having no other viable alternative and being caught up in a serious disparity of force situation.

They saved her that pile of trouble and got ate up for it. IIRC she testified against them.

HCM
07-11-2014, 08:22 AM
All very good points re Lessons learned from Deputy Dinkheller's mindset and actions, however, there are also lessons to be learned by examining the mindset and actions of the perpetrator. It is a prime example of the effectiveness of mindset, willingness and violence of action, i.e. what Pat Rogers refers to as the "mean gene".

The perpetrator took the initiative early in the encounter leaving Deputy Dinkheller behind the curve the whole time. It's a classic example of " More force sooner = Less force later".

In the video, you can see the perpetrator was shot once in the abdomen but the hit was not effective ( i believe it was a .40 cal). The perpetrator merely pauses momentarily before continuing to bring the fight to Deputy Dinkheller. Again demonstrating the importance of mindset and shot placement.

Dont underestimate your opponents. I don't know for sure if its true or not, but in the video, you can hear the perpetrator state he is a Vietnam Veteran which may explain his mindset and tactics. He certaimly did an effective job of assaulting under fire, fixing Deputy Dinkheller in place and killing him via fire and maneuver.

Chuck Haggard
07-11-2014, 08:44 AM
In the LE version of the training video I saw there was bits on the interview later with the bad guy. He knew that an officer might be wearing a "flak vest" and so he shot for the extremities until Dinkheller was down, then ran up and shot him in the head and neck. I'd say that was a bad guy who had put some pre-planning into things.



They saved her that pile of trouble and got ate up for it. IIRC she testified against them.

Yeah, they did, but then they went full retard. I don't look at testimony as for or against, I look at it as the truth, it is what it is. For or against requires spin IMHO.



The Rodney King incident was also, among other things, a case of the law of unintended consequences. LAPD lost the neck restraint as a tactic before Rodney got stupid, because idiots don't know what they don't know and protested the use of such, didn't help that Chief Gates made some stupid decisions and siad some really stupid things ref that subject.
In earlier times Rodney would have been quickly submitted or rendered unconcious, cuffed and stuffed and taken to jail with zero to near zero injuries.

Totem Polar
07-11-2014, 02:15 PM
Not much to add that more expert people haven't already said, save for two thoughts: One, this vid was shown in one class I attended as an example of the serious need to "break the freeze"; the deputy was stuck in a loop.

Ultimately, though, the first thing I think each time I see the original clip (aside from steeling myself against the nausea mentioned elsewhere above) is the words attributed to Paul Gomez: "Most people don't get aggressive enough, fast enough". Sadly, that maxim applies in spades with officer D n this case.

GJM
07-11-2014, 02:28 PM
To try to make this more of a learning experience, play the same scenario except two citizens that had a fender bender, as opposed to a LE stop. How would folks handle that?

Chuck Haggard
07-11-2014, 02:32 PM
To try to make this more of a learning experience, play the same scenario except two citizens that had a fender bender, as opposed to a LE stop. How would folks handle that?

Get on 911, back down the street if the car still drives, stay on the line, be ready to shoot if dude comes after you.

TR675
07-11-2014, 02:41 PM
To try to make this more of a learning experience, play the same scenario except two citizens that had a fender bender, as opposed to a LE stop. How would folks handle that?

MUC and create distance. Retreat if at all possible and leave the scene at high speed; notify the authorities. CS spray, if needed, to counter naked, non-physical aggression and create deterrence. Be prepared to go hands on and, if necessary, use deadly force if you have a reasonable fear that you may be killed or grievously wounded.

Like Chuck said, in this particular situation after the bad guy had expressed malicious intent and returned to his vehicle the best option would be to get in and leave.

In my fender-bender experience, I was standing side by side with a large, angry young gentleman who, while I was giving him my insurance information, told me it was my lucky day, because normally he would have just shot me and rolled me into the bushes. I did not react well to that and he called for his baby to bring him his gun.

I had a gun on me at the time. He could have easily overpowered me. I did not create distance, did not return to my car to leave, and did not have a chance if he decided to get aggressive. I was lucky, I think, in that I recognized that he was trying, successfully, to scare me and did not really mean me any harm. I did talk him down and he returned to his vehicle to leave. I followed him to his vehicle and demanded his insurance and ID information as well. He got hostile, made a furtive move to grab *something* from behind his girlfriend's seat, and I went to draw. He froze, I froze and I backed away and we both left.

I froze in a loop much like I think the officer did; luckily my situation turned out differently. But as soon as those words - "normally I would just shoot you twice in the chest and roll you into the bushes" - left the young gentleman's mouth, I should have backed away, gotten into my car, left the scene and notified the authorities while being ready to react to additional aggression. Certainly I should not have escalated the situation by going after him and demanding his information when he was ready to end the encounter. But, pride, you know?

Sadmin
07-11-2014, 03:36 PM
Horrible, never seen this video before. Thankfully, it seems TTPs these days drill in something along the lines of respond to the intent rather than the action when the gun comes into play. I recall seeing a video recently where an officer stood on the hood of the car while firing into the windshield. Back in the 90s, was in uncommon to begin shooting when a gun was displayed? Or rather, did they have to wait until bad guy points to start firing? I'm not a leo obviously, so im curious.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TAZ
07-11-2014, 04:03 PM
God... Thats awfull.

Not a LEO and I'm probably one of those people who preaches the polite and professional approach to take, but when the guy starts acting squirrelly, dancing and shit my spidey senses would have lead to getting the taser or other non lethal ready for action. IMO the officer had full justification to zap, mace, or club the guy when he charged him. That's definitely aggressive behavior that is justification to do something other than talk. If he was counseled against using force guess that could have put him into the whole Hal2000 conflict of interest loop that cost him his life. SAD. Also IMO when the crazy appearing dude produces a weapon it's time to start shooting at him before he has the chance to deploy his own weapon.

Was there someone in the passenger seat of the truck as well?

From a civilian perspective if I have a fender bender and some guy acts goofy I would drive away while calling 911. A ding to my car ain't worth my life.

As has been stated mindset was the key here. The officer was for some reason stuck at verbal commands. Whether that was his own doing or a conflict cause by some "counseling" should be reviewed thoroughly by his department. If they think that the mode of counseling had any effect on this guys decision making they need to really re think how they go about their business before they put more of their officers at risk.

Wayne Dobbs
07-11-2014, 04:24 PM
There's another cop killing video out there that's just about as bad involving Texas DPS Trooper Randy Vetter in Kyle, TX (on IH-35 just south of Austin). He stops a nut case who exits his car with an AR-15 ordering the trooper to disarm. Instead of simply opening fire on this suspect, the trooper verbally challenges....and is shot dead on the spot. This is followed up by even more indecision and dithering about shooting an armed, non compliant suspect by the responding officers. I have the video saved on a flash drive, but am not aware of a 'Net link.

LittleLebowski
07-11-2014, 05:12 PM
There's another cop killing video out there that's just about as bad involving Texas DPS Trooper Randy Vetter in Kyle, TX (on IH-35 just south of Austin). He stops a nut case who exits his car with an AR-15 ordering the trooper to disarm. Instead of simply opening fire on this suspect, the trooper verbally challenges....and is shot dead on the spot. This is followed up by even more indecision and dithering about shooting an armed, non compliant suspect by the responding officers. I have the video saved on a flash drive, but am not aware of a 'Net link.


http://youtu.be/-GMCfxezdfE

Coyotesfan97
07-11-2014, 05:50 PM
I absolutely hate watching these three videos. I had to stop watching the reenactment when the family pictures came out. I'm fortunate in that I have a partner in my backseat. The Dinkheller suspect would have been wearing a dog after his charge at me. That's an easy one to justify with the crazy dance, the charge, the fighting stance etc. He never would have made it back to his truck.

LittleLebowski
07-11-2014, 05:58 PM
I absolutely hate watching these three videos.

Me too.

jlw
07-11-2014, 06:43 PM
I haven't read through all of the above posts; so, my apologies if some of this has been addressed.

This all took place in Laurens County, GA. Laurens County (Dublin) is on I-16 between Macon and Savannah. It's a little over an hour from where I primarily grew up.

This video comes up a lot in training circles. I have been in classes with people who knew Kyle and who responded to the scene. Some of them leave the room for the duration of the video.

At some point, someone made the claim that Kyle was disciplined for drawing his weapon on a stop a few days prior to this, and that story is often repeated. That story is also vehemently refuted by some of the aforementioned people that knew him and responded to the scene.

When back up responded, they did what they could for Kyle. By the time they got around to checking his video, the battery on his car was dead. They had to jump it off to power up the unit. They then removed the VHS cassette tape from the unit and took it to a nearby house to watch.

If you watch the actual dash came video, you will see movement in the perp's truck. That was his dog, and a visual of the dog actually played a part in the perp's discovery. They actually tracked him down through property records and found where he had purchased a track of land locally. He did not live in the county. He lived in Henry County just outside of Atlanta. If you watch the actual dash came video, you will see movement in the perp's truck. That was his dog, and a visual of the dog actually played a part in the perp's discovery.

TAZ
07-11-2014, 07:31 PM
After digesting the re-enactment and dash cam video during my commute home, I have a few questions. Being that I am NOT LEO they might be stupid so feel free to tell me so and I won't be offended. I am also in no way trying to lay blame on the officer; just trying to wrap my head around how one gets stuck in a deadly loop like he did.

How accurate is the re-enacment especially wrt to what the officer was doing prior to having to deal with the crazy man? Being that I firmly believe that mindset was the key factor in why the officer was killed and the perp lived, the thing that jumped out at me was that in the re-enacment he was chatting with the wife and looking at family pics just prior to having to go into a crazy situation. Is this accurate and does that kind of thing happen often during a shift? Is that something that is discouraged during training? I don't do deadly things often, but the times when I have had to do things that could lead to serious injury or death I've pretty much isolated myself from distractions. No calls from family... that sort of thing. FOR ME: Ive found over the years that getting into character so to speak is easier if its part of a routine. However, getting back into character after loosing focus is far more difficult. How much of a impact does thinking about playing with your kids or wife have on your mindset if you're immediately then faced with having to shoot someone?

Other question is, do radios and cars have GPS capability? Why the constant position request from dispatch? Seems like if my $99 iPhone can be used to track me to a meter of my position a squad car for the guy who is putting his life on the line should do the same.

BaiHu
07-11-2014, 08:16 PM
I am not a LEO (oddly, that's IANAL too), that being said, here are my thoughts.


I use this video in recruit school to show the trend that we see in LE so very often; If you use the correct ammount of force early you can often avoid having to use more force later.

In the words of one of my mentors, if they buy the ticket they need to get the ride, no discounts, no two-for-ones.....

I understand, through the grapevine, that Deputy Dinkheller had been disciplined in the recent past, just before this incident, for "excessive force" or some such thing, and that he was likely a bit worried about "getting into trouble". If true then he wouldn't be the first LEO that worried himself into an early grave.....

We no longer accept reality in our world. Whether it be LEO, MIL, foreign or domestic policy, we do not teach self-sufficiency and personal accountability anymore. Sadly, it's not just someone paid to be on the front lines of this kind of sad and stupid that worry themselves into an early grave. We've practically created a new genome of planned, taught and designed helplessness in our society these days.



http://youtu.be/-GMCfxezdfE

As for the Vetter video, and again IANAL, but what kind of clustery cluster-kittening was going the kitten on? Officer shot? Officer down? And you've got half the PD choking the chicken rather than controlling this situation? That was TX, right? Not East Hampton??

KeeFus
07-11-2014, 08:20 PM
Now a days our cars are GPS'd. Back in 1998 (the time of this incident) i didnt even have a computer in the car...just 2 way radio. When we would do something or get a call we would ALWAYS give our location. Looking back, I cant believe the numbers of vehicles I stopped in my learning years without ever calling it in.

As far as getting into character, I do but family intrusions/distractions happen. I talk to my wife and kids occasionally during shift...up until bed time. If something is going on at work I just send a text dont worry about it.

Dont know how accurate the beginning scene in the reenactment is...but it could likely happen just that fast, which is what I think was part of that message.

jlw
07-11-2014, 08:54 PM
I am not a LEO (oddly, that's IANAL too), that being said, here are my thoughts.



We no longer accept reality in our world. Whether it be LEO, MIL, foreign or domestic policy, we do not teach self-sufficiency and personal accountability anymore. Sadly, it's not just someone paid to be on the front lines of this kind of sad and stupid that worry themselves into an early grave. We've practically created a new genome of planned, taught and designed helplessness in our society these days.



As for the Vetter video, and again IANAL, but what kind of clustery cluster-kittening was going the kitten on? Officer shot? Officer down? And you've got half the PD choking the chicken rather than controlling this situation? That was TX, right? Not East Hampton??


That video screams admin that has destroyed any sort of decision making at the first line level.

When I showed it to the boss a few years ago, he immediately called all of our supervisors in to watch the video and reinforce that he expects them to be decision makers.

We do some non-conventional things at times, but it works, and works because our guys are not afraid to get creative.

BaiHu
07-11-2014, 10:00 PM
That video screams admin that has destroyed any sort of decision making at the first line level.

When I showed it to the boss a few years ago, he immediately called all of our supervisors in to watch the video and reinforce that he expects them to be decision makers.

We do some non-conventional things at times, but it works, and works because our guys are not afraid to get creative.
That's good to hear from you. It's sad when I hear you folks (and LEOs near me) talk about how sensitivity training trumps getting the job done and how clean shoot cops get desk mounted, rather than podium mounted to share their experience and skill. The world doesn't move because of second guessers, it moves due to educated risk takers. Second guessing is an AAR that helps future risk takers.

jlw
07-11-2014, 10:10 PM
That's good to hear from you. It's sad when I hear you folks (and LEOs near me) talk about how sensitivity training trumps getting the job done and how clean shoot cops get desk mounted, rather than podium mounted to share their experience and skill. The world doesn't move because of second guessers, it moves due to educated risk takers. Second guessing is an AAR that helps future risk takers.

As an example, my guys called me from South Carolina in the middle of the night. They got a tip that was where their suspect was and they went after him. They flagged down a SC Trooper to make the arrest.

BaiHu
07-11-2014, 10:30 PM
The world looks a little brighter to me right now.

TAZ
07-11-2014, 10:45 PM
Now a days our cars are GPS'd. Back in 1998 (the time of this incident) i didnt even have a computer in the car...just 2 way radio. When we would do something or get a call we would ALWAYS give our location. Looking back, I cant believe the numbers of vehicles I stopped in my learning years without ever calling it in.

As far as getting into character, I do but family intrusions/distractions happen. I talk to my wife and kids occasionally during shift...up until bed time. If something is going on at work I just send a text dont worry about it.

Dont know how accurate the beginning scene in the reenactment is...but it could likely happen just that fast, which is what I think was part of that message.

Thanks for the reply. Glad to know the cars are GPS enabled. Hope the handhelds end up that way as well so if you're separated from the cruiser getting help routed would be easier and faster. WRT midst, I'm not in a position where i risk life and limb regularly, so I have the luxury of simply telling folks to leave alone while I get my task completed. 8+ hrs a day for 30 yrs might be hard to eliminate the distractions. Understand about how quick things can go south, which is what lead me to wonder how mind set distractions can effect ones ability to regain focus and possibly lead to delays decision making.

I can understand the confusion wrt the DPS. Seems the guy shot the trooper and then called for help over the radio. I can see why responding officers would view him as a good samaritan rather than a threat. However, after the few seconds of interaction and his non compliance people should have shifted gears and viewed him as a threat to both themselves and the wounded officer. Hearing the officer gurgling in the back while his help was trying talk down the shooter made me want to throw up.

Anyone ever get a motive for the DPS shooter aside from being a sandwich or 6 short of a picnic?

Chuck Haggard
07-12-2014, 02:55 AM
After digesting the re-enactment and dash cam video during my commute home, I have a few questions. Being that I am NOT LEO they might be stupid so feel free to tell me so and I won't be offended. I am also in no way trying to lay blame on the officer; just trying to wrap my head around how one gets stuck in a deadly loop like he did.

How accurate is the re-enacment especially wrt to what the officer was doing prior to having to deal with the crazy man? Being that I firmly believe that mindset was the key factor in why the officer was killed and the perp lived, the thing that jumped out at me was that in the re-enacment he was chatting with the wife and looking at family pics just prior to having to go into a crazy situation. Is this accurate and does that kind of thing happen often during a shift? Is that something that is discouraged during training? I don't do deadly things often, but the times when I have had to do things that could lead to serious injury or death I've pretty much isolated myself from distractions. No calls from family... that sort of thing. FOR ME: Ive found over the years that getting into character so to speak is easier if its part of a routine. However, getting back into character after loosing focus is far more difficult. How much of a impact does thinking about playing with your kids or wife have on your mindset if you're immediately then faced with having to shoot someone?

Other question is, do radios and cars have GPS capability? Why the constant position request from dispatch? Seems like if my $99 iPhone can be used to track me to a meter of my position a squad car for the guy who is putting his life on the line should do the same.

Our cars still do not have GPS.

Ref "game face"; A good street cop has to be able to go from call to call and adjust according to the audience. I have gone from helping kids or little old ladies to rolling to a multiple victim down shooting call.
Regular people want Officer Friendly, and they frankly often don't care that you just cleared from four calls in a row of drunks screaming at you, or if you were handling a dead body call.

BaiHu
07-12-2014, 07:58 AM
I can understand the confusion wrt the DPS. Seems the guy shot the trooper and then called for help over the radio. I can see why responding officers would view him as a good samaritan rather than a threat. However, after the few seconds of interaction and his non compliance people should have shifted gears and viewed him as a threat to both themselves and the wounded officer. Hearing the officer gurgling in the back while his help was trying talk down the shooter made me want to throw up.

Good point TAZ. Still surprising how long that went down. Reminds me of the TSA shooting discussion. California, right?

trailrunner
07-12-2014, 08:27 AM
Good point TAZ. Still surprising how long that went down. Reminds me of the TSA shooting discussion. California, right?

The only thing I could think of is that they were afraid of shooting him because there was a freeway behind him, and they didn't want any stray shots hitting a motorists. At one point, someone on the radio says something about closing I-35. But I am not in LE and don't know what the ROEs are for knowing what's behind your target.

LSP552
07-12-2014, 10:28 AM
The single most important thing when you arrive on scene is to gain control. Things can get out of hand quickly when you don't. The first sign of physical aggression should result in an immediate use of greater force to gain control. A common thread of slain officers is their failure to use enough force quickly.

When it comes to mindset, most officers simply never really believe they will have to put round on target. As this is why they hesitate to pull the trigger early enough to effect the outcome. It really is OK to shoot people who need shooting. That message gets watered down quite a bit it todays society.

How many times have you heard some talking head say the goal during a hostage incident was to get EVERYONE out unhurt, even the perp? NO, your goal is for the innocents to get out unhurt. Anything else is just icing on the cake but not a primary goal. When you have conflicting goals, compromise is usually not a good thing.

Ken

jlw
07-12-2014, 11:02 AM
We have neither GPS nor MDT equipped cars although both are on an upcoming SPLOST vote.

A couple of years ago, we went live on a new 700mz digital radio system that is very clear and has good coverage. Prior to that, the radio was very spotty.

----

Last year I had an eerily similar experience on the side of Hwy 316 (major route between Athens and Atlanta). I got out on a guy who was hitchhiking and yelling at cars who wouldn't stop for him. As soon as I stepped out of my truck, he went nuts. He threw down a duffel bag he was carrying and started trying to open it. I immediately drew down on him, and he stopped. He stood up and raised his hands. When I holstered, he started towards me until I drew down again. He said, "You can't do this without your gun." I replied, "It's not going to be a fist fight." At that point he ran to the other side of my truck and tried to get in the cab. I didn't figure that would be a good thing for him to do, and I found a nice spot for him to rest upon on the ground until his ride arrived.

He had numerous blades in the duffel bag. I'm convinced his intent was to get one of those blades and use it on me.

What started out to be a "Sir, you need to move along" turned into darn near a shooting. That same scenario probably plays out hundreds of times a day around the country just like Kyle's traffic stop does. The result is dependent upon the decisiveness of the officer involved combined with the determination of the bad guy.

TAZ
07-12-2014, 11:47 AM
Our cars still do not have GPS.

Ref "game face"; A good street cop has to be able to go from call to call and adjust according to the audience. I have gone from helping kids or little old ladies to rolling to a multiple victim down shooting call.
Regular people want Officer Friendly, and they frankly often don't care that you just cleared from four calls in a row of drunks screaming at you, or if you were handling a dead body call.

That sux about the lack of GPS. IMO that is something that is inexcusable in this day and age. I mean for less than $100 I can buy a GPS unit to track teenage drivers and such. Why any department would not do something as simple as that is beyond irresponsible.

WRT the game face; at this stage I don't know what I don't know. You do make a good point that we want officer friendly when our kitten is stuck in a tree but a second later we want the Incredible Hulk who can face stomp the troop of gang bangers single handedly. Its a tough gig for sure. Wish there was a better way to quantify what distractions dont really have a huge impact vs those that could lead to death and then train around it. I'm sure I'm looking for a unicorn on that wish, but watching those guys die makes one think seriously. Even if it's grasping at straws.


The single most important thing when you arrive on scene is to gain control. Things can get out of hand quickly when you don't. The first sign of physical aggression should result in an immediate use of greater force to gain control. A common thread of slain officers is their failure to use enough force quickly.

When it comes to mindset, most officers simply never really believe they will have to put round on target. As this is why they hesitate to pull the trigger early enough to effect the outcome. It really is OK to shoot people who need shooting. That message gets watered down quite a bit it todays society.

How many times have you heard some talking head say the goal during a hostage incident was to get EVERYONE out unhurt, even the perp? NO, your goal is for the innocents to get out unhurt. Anything else is just icing on the cake but not a primary goal. When you have conflicting goals, compromise is usually not a good thing.

Ken

Good point on his we have let stupid people frame the requirements. Im with you on the whole save everyone loonacy. When in doubt about what is going on, one should err on the side of caution for sure, but here are many cases where many of the variables as known aka we saw the suspect shoot someone and then hide or run or what ever. In those I see very little reason to risk the life of another person to save the suspect. I guess I'd be fired pretty quick if I ever wore a badge.

LSP552
07-12-2014, 12:09 PM
What started out to be a "Sir, you need to move along" turned into darn near a shooting. That same scenario probably plays out hundreds of times a day around the country just like Kyle's traffic stop does. The result is dependent upon the decisiveness of the officer involved combined with the determination of the bad guy.



Truer words never spoken.

Ken

41magfan
07-12-2014, 12:12 PM
It's been my experience that communications and tracking technology hasn't really made officer's that much safer in general, as it tends to serve as a distraction and simply exist as a means to document what happened after the fact. When you watch dash-cam stuff, pay attention to all the radio talk by people in the absolute throws of defending themselves. It's like an umbilical cord for most COPS but sadly it isn't capable of providing you anything of much material value when you really need it. That frappin' radio has never saved anybody when the bullets are flying or about to fly.

KeeFus
07-12-2014, 02:35 PM
When it comes to mindset, most officers simply never really believe they will have to put round on target. As this is why they hesitate to pull the trigger early enough to effect the outcome.


This^^^

Chuck Haggard
07-12-2014, 02:38 PM
Tuco had it completely correct.

TR675
07-12-2014, 02:42 PM
http://youtu.be/DZXlhSgq7us

41magfan
07-12-2014, 03:00 PM
I’m convinced that the “willing” part has to be established mentally long before the need for application, and there are generally two issues to resolve; the moral dilemma and the legal implications. Questioning yourself and your capabilities should be done long before you get between a rock and a hard place.

While not a perfect analogy, most people would be surprised to know that many dogs that bite do so out of fear, not aggression. Actions arising out of fear can be fairly unpredictable but aggression can be molded into something expectable …. just ask any MIL/LE Canine Handler that has handled a "fear biter."

You must resolve in your own mind – by your own means – that protecting yourself is not only acceptable; it’s a fundamental human right. You might be stunned to know the number of armed citizens and LEO’s that have NOT resolved this issue to the point that force can be delivered without any hesitation. The culture has rounded the edges off of just about everything we view as “normal” and the willingness to protect yourself is not viewed as a personal strength in far too many circles.

The other component that I see just as often perverted is the legal question; when can you use force with a measure of protection afforded you by statue and the prevailing rule of law. Memorizing the wording in your State statues will no more prepare you to be decisive than will memorizing the Bill of Rights prepare you for the Bar Exam. You must understand what it MEANS, not just what it SAYS. Applying the law through an act of self-defense should be second nature and you can’t get comfortable doing that until you have a real understanding of what the law will allow.

The good Colonel from AZ put it like this: Problem One is surviving the encounter. Problem Two is convincing the legal system what you did was OK. Don’t let the issues related to Problem Two keep you from effectively dealing with Problem One. If Problem One isn’t handled well, Problem Two becomes irrelevant.

Out of all the various factors that play into an act of lawful self-defense, the dynamic that too many citizens (and LEO’s) have trouble discerning is the element of imminence. This glitch in awareness and understanding can cause you to act too quickly or too late, neither of which is to be desired. I mentioned this in an earlier post; learning to recognize when to “di di mau” when you lose control of a situation will allow you to fight another day.

GJM
07-12-2014, 03:25 PM
It's been my experience that communications and tracking technology hasn't really made officer's that much safer in general, as it tends to serve as a distraction and simply exist as a means to document what happened after the fact. When you watch dash-cam stuff, pay attention to all the radio talk by people in the absolute throws of defending themselves. It's like an umbilical cord for most COPS but sadly it isn't capable of providing you anything of much material value when you really need it. That frappin' radio has never saved anybody when the bullets are flying or about to fly.

In flying, the priority goes aviate (as in fly the plane), then navigate, and finally communicate.

41magfan
07-12-2014, 03:55 PM
In flying, the priority goes aviate (as in fly the plane), then navigate, and finally communicate.

I'll have to remember that analogy; it fits perfectly with the phenomenon I was talking about.

John Hearne
07-12-2014, 03:59 PM
I think that those videos are extremely useful because it potentially recalibrates the typical middle class bias and expectations in terms of violence. Most people have no idea what/who swims in the sea with them. Most folks live in denial and prefer to go about life as if people like this do not exist. Many folks assume that everyone else has the same hesitation and avoidance of violence that they do. Most folks do not appreciate that for some, violence (and a lot of it) is the default, preferred response for some.

The videos are useful if you don't rationalize your "odds" of coming across someone like this. It's not the odds, it's the stakes.

If you sit there and ask yourself "why" then you're missing the point. These people exist and while their violence does not seem logical to you, there is no benefit in trying to figure "why" they are doing what they are doing at the time. If you run across one, then you have to deal with it and "why" burns your most precious commodity - time. Trust me, these acts make perfect sense to the actor - unless they're insane, violence is a logical rational choice that is the most valid answer in their world view.

Regarding GPS (properly called AVL for automated vehicle location) in patrol cars, it isn't that easy. First, someone knowing where you are does not allow them to refine the transporter coordinates and get you instantaneous help. Unless your backup is in the car with you, then they aren't going to help you finish the fight. Second, the complexity of pushing AVL into a large fleet is not the same as tracking a single teen. Every radio transmission with a unit ID and GPS info (which includes location, heading, and speed) takes bandwidth and when you have scores of vehicle updating their location every few minutes, you quickly reach the point of needing a separate data channel in your radio system. The network backend for such a system is huge and expensive. For instance, the backend server to implement Motorola's AVL solution runs around $385,000.00.

The AVL is potentially useful when an officer starts screaming for help and nobody knows where they are. I can also see where it would help with pursuits as it pushes a lot of information to dispatch that officers would be broadcasting. The involved officers still need the info but if they're on the same road, it eliminates some work. I've seen where it might be useful when a vehicle pursuit quickly turns to a foot pursuit. Officers bailing out to start chasing often don't get out the location of the bailout.

wilco423
07-12-2014, 06:27 PM
In flying, the priority goes aviate (as in fly the plane), then navigate, and finally communicate.

Or, in MIL: shoot, move, communicate. We use the concept in our training to try to address this issue. Ask for back up early, because when the fight starts, FIGHT. Win, or at least try to get the upper hand before worrying about the radio. I've seen too many scenarios where the officer is trying to get on the radio during the initial attack, when they should be fighting for momentum swing and the advantage.

We show the Dinkheller video to our new cops, talking about the same things brought up above, particularly using the right amount of force early on. I hadn't seen the Trooper video in full before, but I'll definitely be adding the video to our initial training.

ETA: on the GPS issue, another obstacle can be cops themselves. Generally, concerns about being watched by admin and having to justify every movement, or lack thereof. It is a significant benefit to officer safety, however, that most naysayers eventually get onboard. It's also great for coordinating perimeters.

Wheeler
07-12-2014, 08:31 PM
Looking at it from another angle, I work with guys that remind me of the shooter. Many of those guys work long hours in professions or trades every bit as dangerous as road patrol. They have equally high levels of stress and a sense of accomplishment of a job well done under difficult circumstances. They also have a system of higher command that micromanages, critiques them and criticizes them with little to no understanding of the conditions they work under to complete a job that they take the credit for.
Deputy Dinkheller disrespected him (in his eyes) from the start. Then he started to bark orders. Then he showed fear. It didn't take much of a stretch of the imagination for Deputy Dinkheller to become the focus of his ire and frustration. In my mind the outcome was a forgone conclusion before he ever went back to his truck.

Before anyone starts to call me a cop hater, I don't condone his conduct or actions. I do understand the mindset having spent the last 21 years working with guys just like him. Much like gang bangers demand respect, so do these men. This was an extreme case of what 'disrespecting' them can result in. I also understand that cops have a job to do just like everyone else. There should be a middle ground somewhere I just don't quite know where it is.

John Hearne
07-12-2014, 08:38 PM
Deputy Dinkheller disrespected him (in his eyes) from the start. Then he started to bark orders. Then he showed fear. It didn't take much of a stretch of the imagination for Deputy Dinkheller to become the focus of his ire and frustration. In my mind the outcome was a forgone conclusion before he ever went back to his truck.

I think your analysis is correct. The decision to murder the Deputy was completely logical in the eyes of the POS. It may not make sense to most "normal" people but it made plenty of sense to him.

jlw
07-12-2014, 09:16 PM
Looking at it from another angle, I work with guys that remind me of the shooter. Many of those guys work long hours in professions or trades every bit as dangerous as road patrol. They have equally high levels of stress and a sense of accomplishment of a job well done under difficult circumstances. They also have a system of higher command that micromanages, critiques them and criticizes them with little to no understanding of the conditions they work under to complete a job that they take the credit for.
Deputy Dinkheller disrespected him (in his eyes) from the start. Then he started to bark orders. Then he showed fear. It didn't take much of a stretch of the imagination for Deputy Dinkheller to become the focus of his ire and frustration. In my mind the outcome was a forgone conclusion before he ever went back to his truck.

Before anyone starts to call me a cop hater, I don't condone his conduct or actions. I do understand the mindset having spent the last 21 years working with guys just like him. Much like gang bangers demand respect, so do these men. This was an extreme case of what 'disrespecting' them can result in. I also understand that cops have a job to do just like everyone else. There should be a middle ground somewhere I just don't quite know where it is.

In reference to the first paragraph, folks bringing up that other jobs are just as dangerous as road patrol fails to take into account that nobody sets out to kill people doing those other occupations simply due to their occupation.

Yes, I had a couple of close calls in an industrial setting prior to pinning on a badge. That setting was very dangerous in that one could easily be killed or seriously wounded. However, nobody ever stalked me or my family because I worked in a panelling factory. On a similar note, my forklift driving was never discussed at length on interweb forums either.

And I know you're not a cop hater, well, mostly... ;)

GJM
07-12-2014, 09:21 PM
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2013/08/22/americas-10-deadliest-jobs-2/

The 10 Deadliest Jobs:

1. Logging workers
2. Fishers and related fishing workers
3. Aircraft pilot and flight engineers
4. Roofers
5. Structural iron and steel workers
6. Refuse and recyclable material collectors
7. Electrical power-line installers and repairers
8. Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers
9. Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers
10. Construction laborers

Wheeler
07-12-2014, 09:35 PM
In reference to the first paragraph, folks bringing up that other jobs are just as dangerous as road patrol fails to take into account that nobody sets out to kill people doing those other occupations simply due to their occupation.

Yes, I had a couple of close calls in an industrial setting prior to pinning on a badge. That setting was very dangerous in that one could easily be killed or seriously wounded. However, nobody ever stalked me or my family because I worked in a panelling factory. On a similar note, my forklift driving was never discussed at length on interweb forums either.
I
And I know you're not a cop hater, well, mostly... ;)

I firmly believe that the shooter didn't set out to bait and kill a cop when he left his house that day. There might be more information that I'm not aware of that proves me wrong.
I've had a bullet tossed to me on a job site, been followed to my truck by a young man wearing colors, had a knife pulled on me twice. I've settled each of those issues without a gun or calling the cops. The kid that tossed me a bullet got a speedloader tossed back. The young man that followed me was confronted with a 3' piece of 500 MCM copper wire (about 1 1/4" thick and slightly over 1 1/2 pound per foot, it will crush bones, skulls and I'd frankly rather be shot than take a swing from a piece) and I had a conduit bender in my hands when the knives came out. A slight disparity of force there. :-)

Point is it's a rough and tumble world. Insurance companies, OSHA and contractors fearful of losing their bonds have gone a long way towards cleaning up the industry. The last time I pulled out a blade for something other than work related was to show it off. :-)
As far as hating cops goes. I don't really hate anyone. Some people are easier to dislike than others regardless of the clothes they wear to work. That's not directed at anyone here by the way. ;-)

I might add that as an electrician, when things go bad they usually go bad a slightly less than the speed of light. I think I'd rather try to take a bullet than get electrocuted again.

jlw
07-12-2014, 09:45 PM
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2013/08/22/americas-10-deadliest-jobs-2/

The 10 Deadliest Jobs:

1. Logging workers
2. Fishers and related fishing workers
3. Aircraft pilot and flight engineers
4. Roofers
5. Structural iron and steel workers
6. Refuse and recyclable material collectors
7. Electrical power-line installers and repairers
8. Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers
9. Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers
10. Construction laborers


Deadliest... okay. Do people murder roofers while they are performing their occupation of roofing. That's the difference.

jlw
07-12-2014, 09:47 PM
I firmly believe that the shooter didn't set out to bait and kill a cop when he left his house that day. There might be more information that I'm not aware of that proves me wrong.
I've had a bullet tossed to me on a job site, been followed to my truck by a young man wearing colors, had a knife pulled on me twice. I've settled each of those issues without a gun or calling the cops. The kid that tossed me a bullet got a speedloader tossed back. The young man that followed me was confronted with a 3' piece of 500 MCM copper wire (about 1 1/4" thick and slightly over 1 1/2 pound per foot, it will crush bones, skulls and I'd frankly rather be shot than take a swing from a piece) and I had a conduit bender in my hands when the knives came out. A slight disparity of force there. :-)

Point is it's a rough and tumble world. Insurance companies, OSHA and contractors fearful of losing their bonds have gone a long way towards cleaning up the industry. The last time I pulled out a blade for something other than work related was to show it off. :-)
As far as hating cops goes. I don't really hate anyone. Some people are easier to dislike than others regardless of the clothes they wear to work. That's not directed at anyone here by the way. ;-)

I might add that as an electrician, when things go bad they usually go bad a slightly less than the speed of light. I think I'd rather try to take a bullet than get electrocuted again.


Have random members of the public attacked you while you were twisting a wire nut?

GJM
07-12-2014, 09:56 PM
Deadliest... okay. Do people murder roofers while they are performing their occupation of roofing. That's the difference.

I get your point about intent and wasn't contesting it -- just pointing out, there are a bunch of dangerous jobs in terms of the statistics. Interestingly, plane crashes have killed more Alaska troopers than bad guys have.

jlw
07-12-2014, 10:11 PM
I get your point about intent and wasn't contesting it -- just pointing out, there are a bunch of dangerous jobs in terms of the statistics. Interestingly, plane crashes have killed more Alaska troopers than bad guys have.

More cops get killed in car crashes and from being hit while working wrecks than from actual assaults. There are lots of things we do on the job that are statistically more dangerous than our chances of getting shot, but the fact remains that there is an inherent danger that comes with the profession strictly from the profession, and by extension, it attaches to our families too.

I've personally experienced the dangers of an industrial setting. I've also personally experienced the dangers of toting a badge. The former didn't follow me home. The latter follows me everywhere. I had a stalker decide that I was personally responsible for executions in GA and that I had "blood on my hands". Nobody ever stalked me over panelling.

Nobody ever said, "If that millwright apprentice tries to weld those two pieces of steel together, I'm going to shoot him."

Wheeler
07-12-2014, 10:13 PM
Have random members of the public attacked you while you were twisting a wire nut?

Yes.

I've had a random member of the public repeatedly ram my extension ladder with a shopping cart because I was blocking their access to bread they had no intention of buying in the first place. Pretty sure that twenty foot fall would have at least made me wish I were dead. Fortunately I had the ladder tied off at the time. :-)

jlw
07-12-2014, 10:17 PM
Yes.

I've had a random member of the public repeatedly ram my extension ladder with a shopping cart because I was blocking their access to bread they had no intention of buying in the first place. Pretty sure that twenty foot fall would have at least made me wish I were dead. Fortunately I had the ladder tied off at the time. :-)

Were they intending to kill you?

Wheeler
07-12-2014, 10:18 PM
I might add that I have had terroristic threats made against me and my family although it was not through work. I do have an inkling as to the stress and frustration that situation can create. I might also add that I've held a very low opinion of the Hart County SO since then as they refused to address the threats even though two deputies were present when they were made. Fortunately nothing came of the situation.

Wheeler
07-12-2014, 10:19 PM
Were they intending to kill you?

Pretty sure they were intending to make me fall. Death would have been a bonus in their eyes.

Shellback
07-12-2014, 10:49 PM
A couple of quotes pulled from William Aprill's interview on Ballistic Radio that delve into the mindset of these types of individuals. I recommend reading the whole thing. (http://www.dsbscience.com/download/BR20130714_WilliamAprillDeselectYourself.pdf) Hope this helps.


William - But, you've got to remember, you can offend a certain kind of person with gestures that would seem perfectly normal to the average citizen. If we're at the mall, and we're in parking spots at right angles to each other and both backing out, we bump fenders. If you get out and smile, and say dog gone it, and have your cell phone and insurance card in your hand, we'd like to think that that would take care of everything.

But if that, let's say that driver, the other car's driver, is, you know, a violent criminal actor whose been through an extreme process of violentization we call it, well, you haven't just bumped into his car. You've ruthlessly assaulted and damaged his entire life's worth.

The money that he makes selling drugs pays for that car. The friends of his that were killed selling drugs, commiting crime, that's what the car symbolizes. And, you haven't just bumped into his car, you've assaulted his entire being. And, he will respond exactly as you would if someone assaulted your entire being. And, so, has he been given great offense, life changing offense? Not through my eyes, but the problem is he doesn't see it through my eyes. He sees it through his eyes.

And so you can be confrontational in a way that is completely unavailable to you, inaccessible to you.


William - Yeah, it was a death penalty mitigation case, and when the death penalty is on the table, the State of Louisiana requires that a mental health mitigation case be prepared - things that would argue against sentencing a person to death. And I interviewed a guy who was facing first degree murder charges and he was a very successful, high end residential property thief - tremendous amounts of effort, tremendous amounts of skills went into these very, you know, very, very lucrative robberies. And, he broke into a home in New Orleans and he was successful in stealing what he wanted to steal. And, as he was exiting the home, he noticed that the homeowner had been there the entire time, asleep on the couch. And, he killed the gentleman, and killed him by stabbing and skinning him alive.

John Nice.

William When asked why he had done that, he said, "Well, I had some time, and he was there." He had succeeded in the crime. I mean, walking out the door would have been the thing that would strike most of us to do at that time. But, it was important enough to him, then that's what we call the use of expressive violence vs. instrumental violence.
Instrumental violence is violence necessary to achieve an end. If I hit you on the head with a pipe wrench, it's to get your wallet not to hit you on the head.

This gentleman on the other hand was a true psychopath and expressed himself through his violent acts. And, that became a bonus. The material end had been achieved. He had stolen the things he was there to steal, but the violence itself expressed his character - as he put it, his artistry.

John Huh! The whole I only feel good when I'm hurting other people?

William They don't even feel particularly good about it. It's not a form of joy. It's an expression of his superiority.

John Huh!

William As he once said to me, "Do you think about what ants are thinking as you walk over them?" And, I don't. And, since he's superior to me, he doesn't care what I think -

John Neither does he.

William Or his victims think...

LSP552
07-13-2014, 09:08 AM
Yes, there are lots of jobs that are statistically more dangerous than law enforcement, when you only consider on the job deaths. The thing that gets lost in these discussions is the difference between accidents and directed, deliberate, personal violence. And there is a difference, make no mistake.

Loggers don't get up in the morning with the certainty that someone, somewhere, might deliberately try to end their life. They don't wake up with the better then even money they will will be dealing with aggressive "clients" who would just as soon see them dead, if the opportunity presented itself without much risk to themselves. I know folks who are very comfortable with accidental risk who aren't comfortable giving or receiving personal violence.

By the same token, no way would I be a hose dragger or a logger. I much prefer the personal risk factor over the random because it gives me the ability to control the outcome.

Ken

jlw
07-13-2014, 12:59 PM
There is a case going right now in our superior court circuit in which a self admitted killer did commit aggravated assault (attempted murder) on one peace officer, Tony, and did murder a second peace officer, Buddy. The same self admitted killer is also charged in another murder from a separate incident and was being sought in relation to a kidnapping of a witness on the day the two peace officers were shot.

Tony previously worked as a jailer. The self admitted killer was an inmate in that jail, and there was some sort of altercation between Tony and the killer. The killer has since held a grudge. On the day the shootings went down, the killer saw Tony and finally had his chance for revenge. He shot Tony in the face. Buddy pulled up on scene moments later, and the killer ran up and shot Buddy, who had yet to get out of his car, multiple times killing him.

As for Tony, he has won awards for his community policing efforts. I've answered calls with him, and I would hire him in a heartbeat as he is the type of peace officer with whom we all like to be associated. I would have hired Buddy too.

The killer has admitted to the media and in open court that he did indeed shoot both Tony and Buddy. However, in his mind, he is justified in shooting Tony for whatever happened in the jail years previously, and by extension, he was justified in shooting Buddy because Buddy was also a peace officer. He believes it is all Tony's fault and that he has no criminal responsibility in the matter. Buddy being murdered is at Tony's feet.

There is no comparison of Buddy's being murdered just because he was a peace officer and someone being killed in an industrial accident.

Chief Deputy Kevin Roberts was assassinated at the front door to his home by the target of an investigation. My grandfather died from a heart attack after being kicked in the chest by dairy cow. They are both dead from occupational hazards, but only one of them was sought out and murdered because of his job. My great-uncle was killed in a logging accident. That is different from Deputy Robinson from back home who was murdered by a guy who had just committed an armed robbery.

While dead is dead, there is a difference between an accidental death and being intentionally murdered. One dogs hunts; the other doesn't.

Wheeler
07-13-2014, 02:18 PM
And thus the thin blue line is drawn, seperating cops from those who aren't.

41magfan
07-13-2014, 02:42 PM
I don't know who started it, but distinctions and social divides between groups of people began long before there was a "Thin Blue Line."

Chuck Haggard
07-14-2014, 02:50 AM
And thus the thin blue line is drawn, seperating cops from those who aren't.

The entire premise of the "Thin Blue Line" was and is not the divide between cops and those who are not, but instead the thin blue line that stands between good people and the bad guys/anarchy/predators.

How many other occupations or professions have people going to work every single day with the idea that they may be called on to place their lives on the line for other people, normally people that they don't even know?

TCinVA
07-14-2014, 09:03 AM
And thus the thin blue line is drawn, seperating cops from those who aren't.

On Pistol-Forum.com there is no thin blue line. There's a big bold line dividing two groups of people: Good guys and bad guys. Since the forum's founding there has been free and open discussion between people from all sorts of backgrounds on matters related to personal defense with value given to all sorts of different perspectives that help illuminate the discussion.

That kind of post doesn't illuminate anything or add value to the site whatsoever. Quite the opposite.

Knock it off.

Mike Pipes
07-14-2014, 12:34 PM
the entire premise of the "thin blue line" was and is not the divide between cops and those who are not, but instead the thin blue line that stands between good people and the bad guys/anarchy/predators.

How many other occupations or professions have people going to work every single day with the idea that they may be called on to place their lives on the line for other people, normally people that they don't even know?

well said....cya

farscott
07-15-2014, 03:58 AM
With the benefit of hindsight, we know that Deputy Dinkheller's actions were not the correct ones; however, when events unfold, it is really tough (at least, for me) to determine when more force is needed RIGHT now. More than one LEO mentioned that the perp did some things early in the encounter that would have caused them to use force. There have also been comments about the need to control the situation in order to prevent escalation. For the benefit of those of us who are not LEOs, some discussion around those actions and how you might take control of the situation would be beneficial. I also am wondering if a uniform (itself a means of expressing authority), or the lack thereof, even for a sworn officer, changes the dynamic based on the comments that a perp blamed all LEOs for his "bad fortune".

So, my question boils down to this: When not in uniform, what do you look for before deciding to use force? My first thought used to be retreat if possible, but then I show weakness to a predator. Not a good idea. So now, when out and about, I try to be very aware of what is happening and not disguising that I am alert to those around me. The thought is to make myself look like more dangerous prey than others who are focused on texting on their iPhones. But that does not help once the situation has gone south other than I am not too likely to be surprised. Keeping in mind that people who act like prey get eaten, the proper course of action is to be confident, project willingness to use force, and using force when needed. It is the "when needed" part of the equation that is open to interpretation.

Chuck Haggard
07-15-2014, 05:16 AM
Safe retreat is often a VERY good option.

Devil's advocate to make a point; If Deputy Dinkheller had jumped in his car and did a high speed reverse when dude started digging in the truck would he still be alive today?

Alpha Sierra
07-15-2014, 06:41 AM
My first thought used to be retreat if possible, but then I show weakness to a predator. Not a good idea.

I think you need to rethink that.

Beat Trash
07-15-2014, 09:26 AM
The entire premise of the "Thin Blue Line" was and is not the divide between cops and those who are not, but instead the thin blue line that stands between good people and the bad guys/anarchy/predators.

How many other occupations or professions have people going to work every single day with the idea that they may be called on to place their lives on the line for other people, normally people that they don't even know?

I couldn't agree more...

I discovered this site when talking to one of the moderators here on the phone. He suggested I check it out. And up until I read through the pages of this topic, I've been pleased with what I've seen here. But a few of the responses here surprised me. A lot...

There are a lot of professions in this country in which health and safety hazards exist. There are few in which other human beings will, with intent, try to harm or kill you. There are very few in which this is a constant and realistic option. And yet the the threats are intermixed with periods of low threat positive encounters with the community, so it's hard to be constantly ready for that critical moment. By that, I mean it's nothing like going to a shooting match, where you know that some point you will be shooting a gun. Your critical incident requiring you to use your gun in real life may happen on the next cal for service or traffic stop. It may occur while you are trying to eat a quick lunch or go to the restroom. Or it may never happen. And if it does, the person you go into harms way to protect may shit backwards on you afterwards, instead of offering a simple "thank you".

I do not like to talk ill of the dead. But I do try to use any info from their incident as training. So that maybe, to some very small extent, lessons learned from their death may help to prevent the death of another officer. From that point of view, there are several lessons here to be learned from the death of Kyle Dinkheller. Most important is the need to be mentally prepared for a critical incident to occur. And what can happen if you fail to control the situation in a timely manner. This video will be used for Roll Call training for my Relief this afternoon.

Sorry for the rant, but the "Blue Line" comment kind of hit a sore spot.

TAZ
07-15-2014, 12:20 PM
So, my question boils down to this: When not in uniform, what do you look for before deciding to use force? My first thought used to be retreat if possible, but then I show weakness to a predator. Not a good idea. So now, when out and about, I try to be very aware of what is happening and not disguising that I am alert to those around me. The thought is to make myself look like more dangerous prey than others who are focused on texting on their iPhones. But that does not help once the situation has gone south other than I am not too likely to be surprised. Keeping in mind that people who act like prey get eaten, the proper course of action is to be confident, project willingness to use force, and using force when needed. It is the "when needed" part of the equation that is open to interpretation.
The course of action for a LEO in or out of a uniform may be completely different from what us no-LEO.

As a non LEO going about my business with my family I strive to be the aware grey man. Don't wet your pants if a big tattoo laden guy looks your way; but also don't now up and act all cocky. Looking like prey can ask for trouble from some while looking tough may do the same from others. There is no cookie cutter. Being aware doesn't mean acting like a peacock and strutting your stuff. A good number of criminal encounters rely on surprise. Bad guys catching someone totally unaware and incapable of reacting to their actions. They know the victim profile they want. If you're not that guy it doesn't make a different if you're scrawny or big they will move on to better pickings. If they choose you then being aware means you're a bit better prepared than others. If it's your unlucky day then distance is your friend. I carry a gun as a means of last resort protection. If there is no other option available to keep from getting hurt I would use it. Other wise it's move and create distance. I don't care is everyone thinks I'm a wimp. I'm atleast an alive wimp.

GJM
07-16-2014, 05:04 AM
Different outcome:


http://www.adn.com/article/20140715/alaska-state-trooper-shoots-man-sterling-highway-incident

Dagga Boy
07-16-2014, 08:46 PM
Just read this thread (at the bored stage at work). I am intrigued and confused. Personally, I was a "not repeating the same thing over and over" type of cop. You give commands, they are followed or not, and not comes with consequences. The problem is, that doesn't seem to be what the public desires. I mean just recently an officer was essentially convicted by the community of murder and had zip from backing from community leaders and department brass for learning from the things that Deputy Dinkheller lost his life over.

I mean according to the media and "community activists", Deputy Dinkheller did a steller job. He was dealing with someone who appeared "mentally challenged" and thus special and needed special handling. He was a vet and that requires special handling. His age was different from the officer.....you always have to take age into account in case the person is either too old or too young to shoot. The deputy did a good job of waiting to ensure that the guns was in fact a real rifle and not simply a "toy". THen waited for a few rounds to be fired to ensure that it actually was firing rifle ammunition and not "pellets". He gave the guy A LOT of chances. That is super important in case he doesn't speak English, is startled, is scared, is young, is old, is afraid of police, is mentally ill, or simply having a bad day. The victim of police harassment and Jack booted thugery had a dog...which means he is normally nice and the officer must have done something to him. Overall, based on the commentary that I have both read through and gotten some lovely personal emails about, the officer did a near perfect job on that stop.

On the other hand.......some of us learned a lot from that video early on and it was that and a couple other dash cam videos and guided how we do business on the street and how we train people.

GPS......the biggest issue with GPS is that many places have been sold on it as a "safety tool" to only be used to locate officers in an emergency. Instead it has been horribly abused by admin and supervisors to spy on officers and discipline people and often the same people who are using it to track how many minutes an officer is parked writing reports doesn't know how to find an officer in a pursuit they have lost contact with...........ask me how I know. Most of the patrol officers I knew didn't want it because the positives didn't outweigh the negatives of having a "sergeant in the trunk".

TAZ
07-17-2014, 01:08 PM
This is the second time someone has mentioned that cops are opposed to GPS cars and radios due to not wanting to be tracked. All irony aside, is that really the driving reason behind line officers not wanting it. I could rationalize the cost argument or the logistics headaches and such. Seems like a pretty easy solution to the whole sergeant in the trunk fear would be to only allow dispatch or IA (during a formal investigation) access to the information.

A passive system that doesn't require input for the user could save lives. No need to know where you are in a life and death situation. No need to use the radio to broadcast location; just a call for help. Color me confused.

wilco423
07-17-2014, 01:45 PM
This is the second time someone has mentioned that cops are opposed to GPS cars and radios due to not wanting to be tracked. All irony aside, is that really the driving reason behind line officers not wanting it. I could rationalize the cost argument or the logistics headaches and such. Seems like a pretty easy solution to the whole sergeant in the trunk fear would be to only allow dispatch or IA (during a formal investigation) access to the information.

A passive system that doesn't require input for the user could save lives. No need to know where you are in a life and death situation. No need to use the radio to broadcast location; just a call for help. Color me confused.

I know it seems goofy, but it really is the primary reason for opposition from rank and file folks. GPS position data WILL eventually be used against a cop in discipline, rightly or wrongly. Secondarily, many cops I know feel a downside is that new or lazy cops will use it as a crutch and not develop/use good location awareness. Knowing where you are, and having directional awareness, at all times is a crucial survival skill or cops. Street skills degradation is an issue with any new technology, of course, and many veteran cops I know are great resources for info gathering techniques when the computers go down. Goes to show how much knowledge of the job has been lost in recent years.

On GPS data privacy, in my state, it's actually public data for as long as it's retained, with a few exceptions. Someone just has to ask for it.

KeeFus
07-17-2014, 02:02 PM
Knowing where you are, and having directional awareness, at all times is a crucial survival skill or cops. Street skills degradation is an issue with any new technology, of course, and many veteran cops I know are great resources for info gathering techniques when the computers go down. Goes to show how much knowledge of the job has been lost in recent years.



QFT!

Dagga Boy
07-17-2014, 07:26 PM
This is the second time someone has mentioned that cops are opposed to GPS cars and radios due to not wanting to be tracked. All irony aside, is that really the driving reason behind line officers not wanting it. I could rationalize the cost argument or the logistics headaches and such. Seems like a pretty easy solution to the whole sergeant in the trunk fear would be to only allow dispatch or IA (during a formal investigation) access to the information.

A passive system that doesn't require input for the user could save lives. No need to know where you are in a life and death situation. No need to use the radio to broadcast location; just a call for help. Color me confused.

We had a case at my old place where it was a dispatcher who burned down an officer she was mad at using the GPS. It's simple, like many things the admin brings in stuff that should be used as a safety tool and it gets used as a discipline tool. From the line guys point of view-is the GPS more likely to save my life in some weird situation where I can't call for help and nobody can find me, or more likely to be used to burn me for speeding, being at lunch too long, sitting in one place for too long writing reports, spying on me with when I am meeting with other officers, or maybe at the local mall buying a birthday gift for a spouse. The answer is number two.

NorthernHeat
07-18-2014, 02:51 AM
We had a case at my old place where it was a dispatcher who burned down an officer she was mad at using the GPS. It's simple, like many things the admin brings in stuff that should be used as a safety tool and it gets used as a discipline tool. From the line guys point of view-is the GPS more likely to save my life in some weird situation where I can't call for help and nobody can find me, or more likely to be used to burn me for speeding, being at lunch too long, sitting in one place for too long writing reports, spying on me with when I am meeting with other officers, or maybe at the local mall buying a birthday gift for a spouse. The answer is number two.

This x10

KevinB
07-18-2014, 12:57 PM
I've seen these video's a few times during UoF classes.

Having been through classes officers with several different agencies, it is clear that many LE are not mentally prepared for Lethal encounters.

There have been some studies that officers who have already been in one shooting, are much faster to transition to lethal force when needed that officers who have not.
A lot of officers seem to be in disbelief that it will happen to them.

Mike Pipes
07-18-2014, 01:29 PM
Not a LEO....I think a lot of LEOs are hurt because of denial and complacency. Been a cop for so many years and never had to use my gun so surely i won't need it now. Mind set is SO important.....................CYA MIKE

jnc36rcpd
07-18-2014, 06:58 PM
Mike Pipes, complacency is a problem for LEO's and, undoubtedly, for many other occupations. Several years ago, Mike Conti instituted a new firearms training program at the Massachusetts State Police Academy which included a "house of horrors". In one stage of the house, troopers approached an occupied vehicle as they would on a traffic stop or disabled motorist. As the troopers reached the driver, an instructor pulled a lever which caused the mannequin in the front seat to raise a gun to shoot the trooper.

Conti found that rookie troopers performed much better than experienced troopers. Fresh out of recruit school, they had recently had it beaten into their heads that traffic stops are dangerous. Having made comparatively few stops in their short careers, they expected that a threat might present itself. More experienced troopers, having made hundreds or thousands of cars stops, were less impressive. There were troopers injured when they fell or stumbled in reaction to the threat.

Mental discipline and training can reduce complacency. After thirty-four years, I honestly have expectation that a shooting can occur on every car stop. That said, I also realize that the odds of a shooting on any "random stop" (as the producer termed this murder) are very low. Interestingly, Conti found that the unit that performed extremely well in the "House of Horrors" was not a "high-speed" unit such as tactical or fugitive. It was the Crime Scene Search Section. Conti hypothesized that constant exposure to violent death and injury coupled with the need to analyze and act upon it (e.g.: pressing a camera's shudder release) resulted in troopers who reacted extremely well to the stress of the training environment (and, hopefully, the real world).

nyeti, our citizens police academies are usually pretty pro-law enforcement, but I might use your reversal of this shooting (elderly gentleman, veteran, mere traffic offender) to illustrate use of force issues the next time I instruct there.

Dagga Boy
07-18-2014, 07:42 PM
A big portion of what I did when I was doing training at my place was on mindset. Having officers tell me after the class that it was the first time anyone just looked them in the eye and told them that they may have to kill someone to save theirs or someone else's life. That was also coupled with a bunch of other stuff, but the sad thing is that at that stage in the game, I should not have been the first one to tell them that.

Police agencies create this. The media and the public create this. Officers are scared to death to use force. Because of the great taboo on force usage, a whole slew of additional problems come into play. Many of the cases of excessive force actually stem from a failure to use it when they should have and to the right level (which is 110%) when it is. Then situations spiral out of control, fear and confusion sets in and we have a disaster. This goes back to agency philosophy, poor training, training to the LCD (or ball bearings with lips as I liked to refer to them), and a host of other issues. Most L/E force training is done at 70% or below. That translates into cops not knowing how to deal with 100% resistance. When you see the 70% to pass easy qual courses with firearms translate to the 15% hit rates in the field, it is the same with the other force programs. Most LEO's suck at this stuff. Most agencies have a 10% core of folks who are really doing the tough work. Those enforcers are the first through the door, first to get to help calls, first to volunteer to go hunt armed and violent subjects, the ones who finish fights for others, etc. They also tend to be internally despised by the brass, but tolerated because they are as necessary an evil as the 10% who are handling "Red Ribbon Week", "Cops reading to kids day", Community Night Out, DARE, and Crime Prevention crap that the brass LOVES. The rest are stuck somewhere in the middle. Those folks get into a ton of trouble, and are the ones generally let down by nobody being honest with them, not training them to what the 10% meat eaters are doing, and generally telling them that mediocre is okay. They are quickly sold down the river by the same administration and politicians who don't put a priority on training them correctly (or leading them correctly) when they screw up. Usually, those same politicians and administrators who have made the decision to not prioritize quality, recent, and relevant training are the ones driving the bus full of media and citizen activists that they get thrown under when they don't perform to a high level in a chaotic event that they have been led to believe will never happen to them, or if they scream in their radio and a meat eater will come rescue them like always. Same crap they spew to the public........you don't need to help yourself, just dial 911 and someone will come save you. Doesn't work that way.

Sorry for the rant, but this is both my lane and my biggest pet peeve.

jnc36rcpd-I loved presenting at citizens academies. I think it scared everyone when I did, but I found them easy to convince, especially when the "activist" that is in everyone wanted to debate me. It was a good means to get the point across and build community allies.

Coyotesfan97
07-18-2014, 07:50 PM
When we first got GPS with our DXTs we were told the GPS was for our safety and wouldn't be used a a discipline tool. That was many years ago. The current administration is using it to track speed for discipline. They justify it by saying that was an old administration's position. I've always thought at some point this would happen.

There are ways to turn off the GPS. some guys do. I like having the capability of pulling my position up on the map and setting perimeters with it. I live with it knowing it'll be used against me. I have to agree with Nyetis post about the line Office's belief.

When I started we had car computers without mapping capabilities. My second phase FTO wouldn't let me use the computer. He wanted the Officers he trained to be able to function without it. You had to know where you were exactly or at least give out an approximate location using hundred blocks. When you turn on a new street you better look at the sign. What hundred block are you on. It becomes second nature. You know streets and hundred blocks. You can generally figure where locations are.

If you rely on the computer for finding places you are SOL when it goes down. When they have to take CAD down for maintenance it's almost comical listening to guys who have relied on the computer being forced to listen to the radio, remember things, and figure out where to go. I close the computer lid, rubber band a note pad to the top, and write stuff down like the old days.

It's nice having it but you better be able to work without it if it goes down.

Coyotesfan97
07-18-2014, 08:00 PM
Once again +1 to Nyeti.

As a K9 handler you quickly figure out you want SWAT guys or another handler to cover you on searches as a first choice. If not you better know who the 10% are in the district you're in and you grab one of them for covering you on a search.

Mike Pipes
07-18-2014, 08:09 PM
Jnc36rcpd....you are right...industrial negligent accidents happen everyday...CYA MIKE

jlw
07-18-2014, 08:23 PM
We fired a deputy who saw a Trooper in a fight and didn't jump in... that former deputy is now a federal agent.

John Hearne
07-18-2014, 08:45 PM
We fired a deputy who saw a Trooper in a fight and didn't jump in... that former deputy is now a federal agent.

I am familiar with an incident in which three officers had a nasty knock down drag out fight with a suspect. Well, two of them did, the third stood there and watched the whole thing. They all received the same recognition/award.

BaiHu
07-18-2014, 08:46 PM
I am familiar with an incident in which three officers had a nasty knock down drag out fight with a suspect. Well, two of them did, the third stood there and watched the whole thing. They all received the same recognition/award.
When I grow up, I wanna be middle management! :mad:

LSP552
07-18-2014, 08:50 PM
We fired a deputy who saw a Trooper in a fight and didn't jump in... that former deputy is now a federal agent.

When I was a city policemen, my shift mounted a campaign to run off a physical coward. As in stand there after having a drink thrown in his face during a pretty massive bar disturbance with 6 or so of us pounding away. He never lifted a finger to help while everyone one else was night sticking or rolling on the ground.

He didn't last long after that.

It doesn't take line officers long to recognize peers without physical courage or supervisors without moral courage.

Ken

KeeFus
07-18-2014, 09:07 PM
I am familiar with an incident in which three officers had a nasty knock down drag out fight with a suspect. Well, two of them did, the third stood there and watched the whole thing. They all received the same recognition/award.

A female, now a Captain, was on my shift when she was being FTO'ed. I heard the FTO call for assistance on a traffic stop, which was unusual as he was into MMA before MMA was popular. When I arrive no one is in sight. I look into an apartment and all I see is the FTO fighting like hell and the rookie just standing there. I ran to the door and she opened it and stated, "help him!" I was thinking WTF but went into the fray with the FTO. When it was all over we had torn the doors off the bedroom, broke furniture, and almost shot the suspect.

I complained to the Lt...as did the FTO. Did I mention she is a Captain now?

BaiHu
07-18-2014, 09:14 PM
A female, now a Captain, was on my shift when she was being FTO'ed. I heard the FTO call for assistance on a traffic stop, which was unusual as he was into MMA before MMA was popular. When I arrive no one is in sight. I look into an apartment and all I see is the FTO fighting like hell and the rookie just standing there. I ran to the door and she opened it and stated, "help him!" I was thinking WTF but went into the fray with the FTO. When it was all over we had torn the doors off the bedroom, broke furniture, and almost shot the suspect.

I complained to the Lt...as did the FTO. Did I mention she is a Captain now?
Incompetence and negligence is always moved upward or sideways, that way they do the least damage to the people who are good at their job. This works right up to the POTUS ;)

Totem Polar
07-18-2014, 10:22 PM
With due apology to jnc36rcpd, relegated by one post to P9, the previous page of this thread (P10) is eye-opening gold for a guy like me outside of LE. It is generally true what the internets say about reaching P9 of any thread, but this page is certainly the exception.

Dagga Boy
07-18-2014, 10:22 PM
Once again +1 to Nyeti.

As a K9 handler you quickly figure out you want SWAT guys or another handler to cover you on searches as a first choice. If not you better know who the 10% are in the district you're in and you grab one of them for covering you on a search.

I spent a lot of my days off agitating for our K9's and was one of the first guys ever actually certified as an agitator. Combined with my firearms background most of the K9 handlers would call me to back them on searches. Having a "non 10%er" on those searches was a potential disaster as they would usually be watching the dog instead of everything else, and tended to panic when the dog was on a find or a bite that made for a very tough position for the handlers.


A female, now a Captain, was on my shift when she was being FTO'ed. I heard the FTO call for assistance on a traffic stop, which was unusual as he was into MMA before MMA was popular. When I arrive no one is in sight. I look into an apartment and all I see is the FTO fighting like hell and the rookie just standing there. I ran to the door and she opened it and stated, "help him!" I was thinking WTF but went into the fray with the FTO. When it was all over we had torn the doors off the bedroom, broke furniture, and almost shot the suspect.

I complained to the Lt...as did the FTO. Did I mention she is a Captain now?

I bet that is not how the story goes when she tells it. We had a female Captain who we called "Capt. Cookies and Milk". Sweet lady, great to work for as far as loved the guys like family and had potlucks in briefing, but more of a hugger than a fighter. It was always a crack up listening to her tell stories of what a bad ass she was back in the day "working gangs" (handled the paperwork management and inside intelligence organization) or about how tough she was in the field and watching the older guys who worked with her in the field just roll their eyes. Admittedly, she was one of the first female cops in a tough time, but she also set the basis for some stereotypes. She was also responsible for me getting passed over for a K9 assignment for a 5'2" 100lb female because she thought it "would be cute" to have a female dog handler. Coyote97 can probably guess how well that worked out. Even the softest dog they could find for her was way more than she could control. With that being said, we also had a pair of 5' nothing females who were two of the meanest toughest most brutal cops I ever worked with and gladly went through a lot of doors with both of them. I actually pitied the crooks if they ever got both of them laying down the hate together. It was like an evil little tag team wrestling team of eye gouging, testicle kicking, and impressive use of both sticks and flashlights, all combined with some of the foulest language imaginable.......I miss both of them. They got away with a lot because they were so small and their boots looked like they were from the kids department. The key was that because of their stature, they always went at 100% and were right in the head. Mindset is everything.

Coyotesfan97
07-18-2014, 10:31 PM
One of the toughest fighters I've worked with was a female Officer. I worked with her for years. We were in some knock down drag outs and she never quit.

Nyeti you nailed it again.

KeeFus I'd imagine not well. People who don't work around dogs or who have never held the leash on a working GSD or a Malionois have no clue how hard they pull.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Psychlone
07-19-2014, 09:50 AM
Don't most police cruisers have shotguns? Wouldn't that have been a better choice against a man armed with a rifle?

HCM
07-19-2014, 11:26 AM
Don't most police cruisers have shotguns? Wouldn't that have been a better choice against a man armed with a rifle?

Yes but you're missing the point. You can have a mini gun but it won't do you any good if you lack the mindset to employ it when required.

Lon
07-19-2014, 08:33 PM
I've seen the original. We use this scenario in FoF training at work. Amazing how many officers won't shoot til it's too late. Others drop the BG as soon as they see the rifle. Mindset is everything.

Chuck Haggard
07-20-2014, 06:20 AM
Coppers object to GPS when it is used like;

Highway patrol High Ranking Guy walks into dispatch, sees where Trooper Good Dude is sitting in his newly GPSed brand new trooper car. HRG walks back in a few hours later and sees Trooper GD is sitting in the same spot on the map. He calls Trooper in to demand to know why he hasn't moved in a few hours and is planning on wiring Dude up because he hates the guy and needs an excuse. Trooper GD has been sitting in his radar/speeding spot fishing hole working interdiction all day and has stopped elevently-seven cars in the time frame between map checks by HRG, and has actually towed a car and made a couple of warrants arrests.

True story



GPS/calling for help; IMHO, for the most part, help will never get there in time. One needs to be ready to end the fight without any hope help will ever get there.

TCinVA
07-20-2014, 06:31 AM
I am familiar with an incident in which three officers had a nasty knock down drag out fight with a suspect. Well, two of them did, the third stood there and watched the whole thing. They all received the same recognition/award.

I know of an instance where an officer who did the same ended up promoted to a command position.



GPS/calling for help; IMHO, for the most part, help will never get there in time. One needs to be ready to end the fight without any hope help will ever get there.

...and in regards to the shotgun question above, this explains why long guns are often not a factor in a police gunfight. When stuff breaks loose it typically does so at close distance with minimal warning. And once it hits the point where shots are being fired you usually have to solve the problem with whatever you have on your person at that moment. In such situations a long gun back in the cruiser might as well be in Timbuktu for all the good it will do.

Chuck Haggard
07-20-2014, 06:46 AM
...and in regards to the shotgun question above, this explains why long guns are often not a factor in a police gunfight. When stuff breaks loose it typically does so at close distance with minimal warning. And once it hits the point where shots are being fired you usually have to solve the problem with whatever you have on your person at that moment. In such situations a long gun back in the cruiser might as well be in Timbuktu for all the good it will do.

Word.


One of my complaints about the active-shooter response gear industry is the idea that one will have any time to jock up before going to work. In my experience, it ain't happening. If it isn't on you or within arms reach then it won't be there for you.

jlw
07-20-2014, 11:46 AM
I know of an instance where an officer who did the same ended up promoted to a command position.



...and in regards to the shotgun question above, this explains why long guns are often not a factor in a police gunfight. When stuff breaks loose it typically does so at close distance with minimal warning. And once it hits the point where shots are being fired you usually have to solve the problem with whatever you have on your person at that moment. In such situations a long gun back in the cruiser might as well be in Timbuktu for all the good it will do.


The only shooting that we have had in my time as chief was a deputy who shot a shot a perp from 60 yards with an AR. The perp had kidnapped a mother and teenage girl and was waiting on the father to come home so that he could kill them all. The girl managed to escape, run to a nearby home, and call 911. Five deputies all arrived at virtually the same time and went up the driveway. Three of them grabbed their rifles, one had a shotgun, and the other was there to provide more visual information for the perp to process. As they were going up the driveway, the perp shot the mother and then made a break for his prepared hideout, but he saw the deputies and turned to make a fight of it. He lost.

They went up that driveway immediately upon arriving one scene.

Long guns in law enforcement see so little actual use because of the stigma of using them.

Our policy is that anytime the thought crosses a deputy's mind that they need a gun due to the very nature of the call, grab a long gun. Deploying a rifle is no different that drawing a pistol except that one is a lot more effective than the other if it needs to be used.

Oh yeah, the deputy that fired the shot was actually off duty. He heard the radio call go out and responded.

KevinB
07-21-2014, 08:54 AM
And some people think that running a traffic stop in plates and carbine is weird...
I call it prepared.

jnc36rcpd
07-21-2014, 08:09 PM
"...the other was there to provide more visual information for the perp to process."

It took a second, but I now have to wipe beer off my computer. I'm definitely stealing that line.

krazykiddjoe
07-22-2014, 08:33 PM
I remember watching this video few years back at in service, since then we have shown it to the academy every class. The points for me are as follows.

Dinkheller is said to have been "quick to use force" and was "counseled" days prior to this encounter. I taught each and every boot that rode with me that there is a time and place to second guess, in a fight isn't one of them. Establish control quickly, if you use force, in our agency at least, once Dinkheller had hit the suspect once with the baton, there would have been an internal, any strikes after that are "free"(not whoop his ass free but you have the internal you might as well get the guy under control). As officers, we can't worry bout this or that in the moment, know you policy, know your authority, know you're right and when its go time, GO AS FAST AND AS HARD THAT IS NEEDED!.

Movement, if you watch the suspect, once the firefight begins, he never stops moving, period, he is on his feet, keeps his base under him moves uses the patrol car to HIS advantage and never stops attacking even when hit, some call that as part of the suspect's mindset, I call it his FIGHT...

I see some newer officers that just don't have any fight, they go thru the motions but freeze at ACTUAL conflict, make a decision, right OR wrong, live with it, learn from it.


I really hate the screams from Dinkheller. One of the worst OIS caught on tape.

K K J- OUT....


edited to add, when the suspect returns to this vehicle is has been said that he was loading the mag for the m1 carbine, to most current case law it is imminent use of deadly force... i.e. Go Time...

BWT
07-24-2014, 09:41 PM
So, I have a question.

Do departments do quarterly or annual training on combatives? Like the escalation of force, etc. baton drills, etc.? Or is it more of you do your PT rest, pass the shooting qual, and don't do anything too bad?

Is this also department specific? I can see how a small SO or PD can't justify sending officers en masse to training schools and afford private instruction for the entire department.

I've watched the video in the past and I was frustrated when he started yelling at the trooper, jumping, and what broke all the rules to me is when they went to their respective vehicles.

ETA: Yelling, heavy breathing, maybe even violent hand gestures (not reaching in your pockets, but throwing hands up, etc.) are verbals and non-verbals. But approaching the officer and becoming non responsive; this I.T. Professional (I did win a customer service award last year; I'm a bit of a softy and I know it.)!says No.

Chuck Haggard
07-24-2014, 10:59 PM
You would be stunned at how poor or nonexistent police training can be.

jlw
07-24-2014, 11:07 PM
So, I have a question.

Do departments do quarterly or annual training on combatives? Like the escalation of force, etc. baton drills, etc.? Or is it more of you do your PT rest, pass the shooting qual, and don't do anything too bad?

Is this also department specific? I can see how a small SO or PD can't justify sending officers en masse to training schools and afford private instruction for the entire department.

I've watched the video in the past and I was frustrated when he started yelling at the trooper, jumping, and what broke all the rules to me is when they went to their respective vehicles.

ETA: Yelling, heavy breathing, maybe even violent hand gestures (not reaching in your pockets, but throwing hands up, etc.) are verbals and non-verbals. But approaching the officer and becoming non responsive; this I.T. Professional (I did win a customer service award last year; I'm a bit of a softy and I know it.)!says No.

GA POST standard is that peace officers must qualify once per caliber year with their primary duty weapon. That's it. The state qualification course is 30 rounds, and it isn't hard.

An officer could qualify in January of one year and wait until December of the next year going pretty much two actual years between firing shots.

As for what individual agencies actually do, it can be as little as the annual qualification to running actual decent firearms training. Even an agency such as mine headed by two certified, died in the wool, barrel suckers doesn't get to the range as often as it should. I have some individual personnel that are hard chargers, but on the whole, no.

BobM
07-25-2014, 07:19 AM
You would be stunned at how poor or nonexistent police training can be.

Unfortunately very true.

jlw
07-25-2014, 08:00 AM
In post 116 that should be "calendar year". Given the subject matter, the typo is amusing.

Erik
07-25-2014, 09:20 AM
In post 116 that should be "calendar year". Given the subject matter, the typo is amusing.

Is that a cigar in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

Beat Trash
07-25-2014, 01:47 PM
So, I have a question.

Do departments do quarterly or annual training on combatives? Like the escalation of force, etc. baton drills, etc.? Or is it more of you do your PT rest, pass the shooting qual, and don't do anything too bad?

Is this also department specific? I can see how a small SO or PD can't justify sending officers en masse to training schools and afford private instruction for the entire department.

I've watched the video in the past and I was frustrated when he started yelling at the trooper, jumping, and what broke all the rules to me is when they went to their respective vehicles.

ETA: Yelling, heavy breathing, maybe even violent hand gestures (not reaching in your pockets, but throwing hands up, etc.) are verbals and non-verbals. But approaching the officer and becoming non responsive; this I.T. Professional (I did win a customer service award last year; I'm a bit of a softy and I know it.)!says No.

Last year in Ohio, OPOTA dumbed down the qualification for the duty pistol. This year they summed down the qualification course for shotgun. The qualification for less lethal options such as your stick and mace is a joke!

As for UOF training as it relates to less lethal options, that is dependent to the agency. Many smaller agencies have the desire to conduct additional training, but lack the resources. Many larger agencies have the resources, but chose to utilize the available training time and funds on touchy - feely topics like customer service, diversity training and various other concepts. Often referred as the "Hug a Thug program".

It's unfortunate that those in senior command positions to make decisions as it relates to priority of training topics, got to their position by spending minimal amount of time actually on the street, if at all.

To call it frustrating is a gross understatement...

John Hearne
07-25-2014, 02:23 PM
The other issue that hasn't been mentioned is fear of injuries and work comp claims. No matter how careful you are, realistically practicing the use of force carries a risk. Given enough participants, there will be injuries. My employer looks at anything that generates injuries as the worst thing on the face of the world and anyone conducting "risky" training is going to get burned when someone files a claim - whether serious or minor, real or fake...

Chuck Haggard
07-25-2014, 02:55 PM
It's unfortunate that those in senior command positions to make decisions as it relates to priority of training topics, got to their position by spending minimal amount of time actually on the street, if at all.

To call it frustrating is a gross understatement...

Quoted for truth

DiscipulusArmorum
01-12-2015, 07:36 PM
Deputy Dinkheller's killer scheduled to be executed Tuesday, pleading for clemency (http://www.11alive.com/story/news/local/2015/01/12/brannan-parole-board-hearing/21663901/)

I'll be hoisting one around 7PM tomorrow in memory of Deputy Dinkheller and to celebrate the removal of an oxygen thief from this planet.

Peally
01-12-2015, 08:14 PM
Deputy Dinkheller's killer scheduled to be executed Tuesday, pleading for clemency (http://www.11alive.com/story/news/local/2015/01/12/brannan-parole-board-hearing/21663901/)

I'll be hoisting one around 7PM tomorrow in memory of Deputy Dinkheller and to celebrate the removal of an oxygen thief from this planet.

Thank God. Not wanting a ban I'll keep it at that.

Lon
01-12-2015, 10:18 PM
I'll be praying for no last minute spinelessness from anyone who can stop this.......

Coyotesfan97
01-14-2015, 01:48 PM
He was pronounced last night at 8:33 EST.

Alpha Sierra
01-14-2015, 02:11 PM
He was pronounced last night at 8:33 EST.
Humankind's toilet has been flushed straight to hell

Peally
01-14-2015, 02:28 PM
Humankind's toilet has been flushed straight to hell

I don't drink but I'll make an exception tonight and raise a glass. Best news I've heard all month, shame it took so long.

Oh, and I wouldn't piss on the death-penalty protesters there if they were all burning alive. What a sad little group of animals.

SeriousStudent
01-14-2015, 09:15 PM
I don't drink but I'll make an exception tonight and raise a glass. Best news I've heard all month, shame it took so long.

Oh, and I wouldn't piss on the death-penalty protesters there if they were all burning alive. What a sad little group of animals.

I raised a glass to the executioner last night, for a job well done.