Improving the Press Out?

[Magsz]

Hey guys, i ran a search and i either overlooked it or...i probably overlooked it as i wasnt able to find what i was looking for.

Im looking to improve my press out to shave a few milliseconds off of my time from the holster to the target and after watching some video ive noticed that it seems as though im doing a bit of bowling.

I read Todd's article on the press out and i cannot seem to make my body bring the gun in line with my sights any earlier than the point at which i am currently doing it.

I seem to acquire the front sight almost at full extension of my arms which is not where i want to start seeing that sight.

The one thing that seems to help this is raising my muzzle a tad and then settling the front sight into the rear notch but i tend to miss high if i do this as im not settling the sight enough.

Here is some video, im the guy on the left.

Anyone have any suggestions as to how i can speed up or what i can do differently to get that gun in my sight line sooner?

Thanks guys!

Please disregard the slow draw, he was drawing from concealment, i was not. I wanted to make things fair so i delayed my draw on purpose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf_ECyXwGx8

[vecdran]

You need to get a lot lower. Crouch lower and lean forward aggressively. It helps with the press out because it's easier to get your sights lined up with the reduced angle of meeting your sight line.

Try it. Try lining your sights up in front of your face while standing bolt upright, then try it while in a crouched fighting stance. I guarantee the latter will be easier to do.

Here's me shooting a USPSA practice stage. Notice how much more "bent" my stance is than yours. I'm still not as low as I would like, but as Todd said, no one ever is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es3A18_4sL4

[NickA]

I'm interested to hear feedback on this as well. I noticed on recent match video that I'm crouching even lower than vecdran, not sure if it's good or bad.

[Magsz]

What's funny is that most people ask me why i "turtle" so much.

I do tend to lower my head into my shoulders and when moving i tend to lean forward far more than i was doing in that video. Ive been doing more "competition style" shooting lately instead of the usual self defense training affair and most people have been telling me to stand straighter. Its not that ive listened but its more like ive become a little more comfortable around the "Buzzer stress".

So, which is right? Head down, or straight up and why would each technique be desirable?

[vecdran]

A straighter stance is technically better for target transitions, but you need to remember that most shooters aren't doing the kind of press out we are doing.

[irishshooter]

ive noticed that sig academy has begun to stray way from the "turtle"-like stance previously taught by them and has transitioned to a more straight up stance soon after they took on Max Michel as their team captain. likely because of his success in the competitive world and it does stand to reason it allows for better peripheral vision and faster target/threat acquisition with transitions.

[Magsz]

Irish,

That was actually the first person i thought of when i referenced standing straight up.

[jetfire]

One of the things to remember about the "straight up" stance though is that the guys that are doing it with the most success are shooting open guns or in many cases are just "really strong". A friend of mine is a USPSA GM and stands up when he's shooting his limited gun; he's also made almost entirely out of muscle and benches 250. A really good way to look at the best body mechanics for shooting is to watch the top female pro shooters such as Julie G or Randi Rogers when they're shooting non-open guns. Because they can't "cheat" with upper body strength like a lot of dudes have, they maximize the mechanical aspect of shooting. They also almost universally get down as low as possible when they're shooting.

[NickA]

Ive been doing more "competition style" shooting lately instead of the usual self defense training affair and most people have been telling me to stand straighter.
Magsz- exactly what happened to me. An experienced USPSA shooter questioned it; his view was that it's not necessary even for defensive shooting. I suspect I'm exaggerating some while trying to assimilate the press out.
Caleb- great insight. Maybe I'll just tell them "this is how JulieG does it!"

[Magsz]

I dunno about you guys but im not a fighter. I dont like getting punched in the face and im not particularly fond of conflict.

My natural, untrained reaction is to make myself smaller when someone is being aggressive towards me.

The "shoulder hunch" is something that i believe i would naturally do in a time of conflict so its never bothered me before.

In the interest of improving my competition shooting i have however moved a bit away from "reality" and ive accepted this as being OK given my goals.

[DonovanM]

All it takes is practice. I don't really think your stance has anything to do with making it universally easier, that's more a matter of personal preference for recoil control IMO. I stand almost straight up and practice drawing at an A zone at 7 yards with a baseline of .6 out of my Production rig (which doesn't include running my SIG's DA trigger, best match draw is a .87). All it takes is practice. Be glad you don't have to include prepping a 10lb trigger in with it ;)

[LOKNLOD]

All it takes is practice. I don't really think your stance has anything to do with making it universally easier, that's more a matter of personal preference for recoil control IMO.

if referring to making the press out easier, I think one's stance has a big impact on the path the gun takes, particularly when you can get the sights leveled on target and, for me at least, the ability to get a good full 360 contact grip on the pistol in the ready position. A straight-up stance makes it harder to do the press out without contorting my arms in ways they just don't bend.


--Josh H

[vecdran]

You have to chicken wing like an idiot or do a really weird arm tuck to get the sights lined up at your face if you stand straight up.

[SeaSoldier]

vecdran, looks like you have taken a few Insights class's.

[DonovanM]

You have to chicken wing like an idiot or do a really weird arm tuck to get the sights lined up at your face if you stand straight up.

I don't get it. When I think of chicken winging I think of what Dave Sevigny does with his elbows (http://icreek.com/guns/bianchi/2/b5.jpg) - keeping them almost in line between his hands and shoulders - and he runs one of the most aggressive stances I've seen out of the top male shooters when running and gunning. That pic was from the Bianchi Cup which is why he isn't bent over.

I don't do the same thing because it doesn't feel natural to me. Here I am standing upright, not chicken winging, and having no problems aligning my sights:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAzHppHX8_o

And I don't think this guy has any trouble with it either.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_fSWsyPc6CKI/SPf93aYoxlI/AAAAAAAAAlA/7NlAcuOj7Ug/s400/AMU+Junior+camp+2008+078.JPG

http://www.robleatham.com/libraryrldc/pictureparlor/rob03natsbrassweb.gif

[vecdran]

I don't get it. When I think of chicken winging I think of what Dave Sevigny does with his elbows (http://icreek.com/guns/bianchi/2/b5.jpg) - keeping them almost in line between his hands and shoulders - and he runs one of the most aggressive stances I've seen out of the top male shooters when running and gunning. That pic was from the Bianchi Cup which is why he isn't bent over.

It would appear we are talking about different things. In your video, you don't have your sights fully aligned until full extension. That's a different style of pressout, the one that most people use.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl4tbMHF3xk

Note where Todd's gun stops moving vertically and only moves straight out. He is doing more of a neck duck, which accomplishes the same thing, getting your sight line lower and forward.


vecdran, looks like you have taken a few Insights class's.

No, I haven't. I have taken some Todd Green classes though...

[DonovanM]

I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. In your video, you don't have your sights fully aligned until full extension. That's a different style of pressout, the one that most people use.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl4tbMHF3xk

Note where Todd's gun stops moving vertically and only moves straight out.

Oh wow, you're not kidding. I've never seen it done like that before. Now I know what you meant by "aligning the sights at your face."