.308 time, suggestions? [Archive]

View Full Version : .308 time, suggestions?

JodyH

07-04-2014, 03:43 PM

Looking to buy a new .308 "battle rifle", because you know... BATTLE!
:cool:

What I want:
Semi-Auto, mag fed
16-18" barrel
correct lop (short) stock or adjustable stock
20 round magazines
open sights and red dot capable
Will eat military ball ammo.
Hit where I aim it out to 300 yards or so (I'm a realist and my eyes suck).
Budget is pretty open.

Currently what I'm looking at:
DS Arms 18" FAL ($1500 range and mags are plentiful and cheap)
HK MR762A1 ($3000 and mags are $75-$100 each and somewhat hard to find)
KAC SR25 ($3500 and again KAC mags are $100+ and hard to find)

I'm leaning towards the H&K right now because it seems to be the best all around bang for the buck.
I really like FAL's but have no experience with DS Arms builds, it'd be the cheapest way to go but unsure of how well they take a red dot.
KAC is mucho nice, mucho expensive and can be a PITA when it comes to parts and accessories.

Anybody have anything to add?
:confused:

YVK

07-04-2014, 04:04 PM

SCAR 17. I think mags are available now at 1/3 price of SR 25, but you need to confirm that. Eats any cheap surplus 308 ball, cheap being used in a literal sense. Pretty accurate. Very discreet with its folding stock. Goes well with LEM HKs.

jc000

07-04-2014, 05:39 PM

I've been looking at this (https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=4562) and this (http://primaryweapons.com/firearms/mk2/rifles/#.U7csWIm9Kc0) (the MK216) recently. Both are under 9lbs. and under $3000.

Also considering a Megalithic build.

The PredatAR, LMT MWS, and Scar 17 are all appealing as well.

Lots of good choices out there! Don't thibk you'd go wrong with any of your choices though the riskiest may be the DSA FAL.

SecondsCount

07-04-2014, 05:53 PM

Don't forget the S&W M&P 10 and like YVK said, the SCAR is a nice rifle and the aftermarket is starting to make mags for it.

I have not seen a 308 that couldn't stay inside a 6" circle at 300 so as long as you do your part.;)

The KAC, DPMS, and S&W and a few others all use the same mags. A couple companies including Magpul make them.

GJM

07-04-2014, 06:12 PM

Per SLG and SeanM, there is really one choice -- Larue. PredatAR and PredatOBR, which fits in a tool box now, are the choices.

1slow

07-04-2014, 06:27 PM

My favorite of the classic battle riles is a 50.63 FAL or clone of this model. Para Folding stock barrel about 17.5" they call it 18". Ergonomics are good. It is reliable and durable. Put a DSA scope base on it and an extended safety lever and extended mag release lever on it. I like the Para, the springs are very easy to get to without taking butt apart which requires tools.

I have shot a huge number of FAL s a lot of rounds since the 1980s. I like them a lot but there are some things to be aware of.

1) As the gun gets hot I noticed vertical stringing with scoped guns (not with iron sighted guns). I believe this is because optic mounts on a receiver dustcover mount (DSA seems to be the best) when the barrel shifts up front iron sight moves with the barrel, the scope mounted to the receiver does not move with the barrel. This was on 5+ FALs. Stringing was about 12" at 500 yards.

2) DSA build quality has varied. I would buy a SAR 48 as a first choice. This is a complete Imbel built gun imported by Springfield armory.
A quality build on a Imbel receiver would be a good choice. Belgian guns are collectors items and not better than SAR 48s in my experience. Arizona response is in AZ and has a good rep.
I have had several DSA early guns that were .308 chamber. This is a tighter chamber than 7.62x51. there were some feed issues with surplus 7.62x51 in the .308 chamber. In one case we put in an Imbel chrome lined 7.62x51 barrel and the problems went away. I have also had DSA FALs that worked fine.

3) FALs are hard to get a great trigger on, the Williams trigger jobs I have seen have been good.

Get the Gunplumbers Guide to the FAL by Arizona Response and you will have a lot of information. Also FAL Files is helpful.
----------------------------------

SCAR 17
One of the guys at Blue Force Gear ran one in Pat Rogers 3 day carbine class and liked it a lot. LightFighter shoudl have data on this.

The one I shot did not recoil much and ran fine but I have not scoped and shot one a lot so I do not have accuracy data.

DocGKR

07-04-2014, 06:30 PM

I would get one of the LaRue's or a KAC ECC or K2.

dbateman

07-04-2014, 07:13 PM

I like the FAL but I'm an Aussie so thats a given.

One of the guys I shoot with a bit has two DSA rifles he is happy with them. I know they have both had Jard triggers installed.
And are currently wearing a reflex site from Israel, I forget the make and model. Can find out if any one was interested.

POF make a good semi 308, very easy to shoot well.

But if I were in the market for a semi 308 this is what I would be buying. http://www.gaprecision.net/ga-precision-2014-custom-rifles/ga-precision-gap-10-.html

Mike C

07-04-2014, 07:27 PM

SCAR 17.

This. I totally dig the SCAR 17. When I was in Benning I got to shoot a decent amount through one or two. They are pretty fantastic. Accuracy and reliability with standard 147gr ball was pretty darn good. Superb with hand loads from the civilian model I shot. Accuracy will be much better if you end up dropping in an aftermarket trigger. I too love the FAL, as 1slow stated. They are great all around rifles and you can put them together and strip them apart with minimal tooling which is really nice. Really easy to work on. Parts are cheap and plentiful if you know where to look, though they have dried up in recent years. There are some things to be cautious about though as 1slow stated/covered rather well.

On another note, there are some horror stories about the Scars and optics. My experience does not coincide with these stories. While I do not own one I have about 3500-4k through them. In my experience the Scars do well with optics as long as you stick with bonded lenses. Don't chince out on optics. A good friend of mine did and was really sorry. If you can get an LE or Mil. discount that is the way to go. Last I checked they run about 2.5k with the discount. Comes with gun and two mags. You will pay a lot more if you go the MR762 route. PM me if you need info on an LE/Mil dealer. That same LE dealer also sales to civilians and has conversion kits available for Com. Block 7.62, 300 Blk out, and 5.56/.223. Good luck man. Lots of good choices out there.

1slow

07-04-2014, 07:31 PM

For precision I would not pick a FAL though I really like them.

SecondsCount

07-04-2014, 08:14 PM

Per SLG and SeanM, there is really one choice -- Larue. PredatAR and PredatOBR, which fits in a tool box now, are the choices.

I thought about recommending the Larue but was concerned about the barrel issues they were having. Is this solved at this point?

JodyH

07-04-2014, 08:41 PM

For precision I would not pick a FAL though I really like them.
My eyes aren't good enough for precision shooting.
If it'll shoot to a 4 MOA Trijicon dot I'll be more than happy for my intended purpose.
I'm wanting a truck gun with more reach and pop than 5.56 for my fall/winter trips down along the border.
There's been times when I'm looking through bino's at a probable smuggler/coyote 500 yards away looking through bino's back at me that my 20" barreled 5.56 just didn't seem like it had enough reach.

GJM

07-04-2014, 08:51 PM

I thought about recommending the Larue but was concerned about the barrel issues they were having. Is this solved at this point?

http://www.laruetactical.com/xtraxn%E2%84%A2-technology-larue-tactical

Mike C

07-04-2014, 08:57 PM

As stated, Scar 17. Adjustable LOP & cheek rest. Collapsable to a reasonable size/portable size. Surely accurate to 500 meters without issue, reasonably light. Detachable box mag, 20 or 25 rounds. The only thing that sucks is that the twist rate is a 1/12 vs. OBR's 1/10. Though if you are looking for light/portable with decent accuracy 17's got it. It is also a bit lighter than the OBR though I can't remember specifics but I believe it is around 1 to 1 1/2 pounds. Thats a decent optic in terms of weight. Just sayin'.

GJM

07-04-2014, 09:07 PM

Jody, it might be worth searching for a thread from a few years ago on this topic.

I had an original Larue and sold it when they were having teething problems. I subsequently got two SCAR H rifles, which work well, especially with a Geisselle (sp) trigger. SeanM and SLG, both of whom have forgotten more than I know about .308 gas rifles, explained why the Larue is MO better than the H. Recently, I got a Larue PredatOBR in, after they filled my back order, and it came in this tool box, complete with all the accessories. The test target is crazy accurate, and the thing exudes quality and precision. Hopefully they will chime in.

This is the Larue PredatOBR suitcase rifle:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg1_zps929901c3.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg1_zps929901c3.jpg.html)

SecondsCount

07-04-2014, 09:11 PM

http://www.laruetactical.com/xtraxn%E2%84%A2-technology-larue-tactical

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?140955-LaRue-308-s-and-popped-primer-issue

GJM

07-04-2014, 09:23 PM

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?140955-LaRue-308-s-and-popped-primer-issue

Wasn't aware. Hopefully SLG or Sean will weigh in.

Chance B.

07-04-2014, 09:42 PM

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?140955-LaRue-308-s-and-popped-primer-issue

I was the student referenced by Nick in the M4 thread. Shrek and his AI were teasing me before the first string of fire that my 7.62 PredatAR would not make it through the class. I was really surprised to hear that as I had only heard positive things about Larue guns prior to that. My PredatAR literally choked on the third round in the opening course of fire. It blew a portion of the primer into the BCG and totally locked it down. It took three guys and tools to get the upper separated from the lower and to get the BCG out. My backup gun was a 20" OBR and it showed similar overpressure signs (blown out primers).

I really like the rifles, but unfortunately the overpressure issues make them useless as anything other than range guns.

Mike C

07-04-2014, 09:51 PM

Any chance you'll open the case for us GJM?

Dagga Boy

07-04-2014, 10:06 PM

I have a LaRue RangAR rifle that I adore. It got put away in the safe as I could never replace it. It was replaced with a Colt 901 with a Busnell 1-8 SIMR optic and a Aimpoint if I just want the red dot. Great DMR and great price. Super reliable with anything and feeds from PMAGs. My LaRue only gets fed match ammo. I think for just a solid beater urban .308, the 901 is hard to beat. They have been like hens teeth, but the adaptor to take 5.56 uppers (and now Ak mag fed as well) may be a big plus as well.

GJM

07-04-2014, 10:08 PM

I was the student referenced by Nick in the M4 thread. Shrek and his AI were teasing me before the first string of fire that my 7.62 PredatAR would not make it through the class. I was really surprised to hear that as I had only heard positive things about Larue guns prior to that. My PredatAR literally choked on the third round in the opening course of fire. It blew a portion of the primer into the BCG and totally locked it down. It took three guys and tools to get the upper separated from the lower and to get the BCG out. My backup gun was a 20" OBR and it showed similar overpressure signs (blown out primers).

I really like the rifles, but unfortunately the overpressure issues make them useless as anything other than range guns.

What is the update -- has Larue fixed the problems yet? I haven't shot either my P'AR or P'OBR yet.

Any chance you'll open the case for us GJM?

Away now, but can do. The suitcase gun is very neatly done.

Chance B.

07-04-2014, 10:39 PM

What is the update -- has Larue fixed the problems yet? I haven't shot either my P'AR or P'OBR yet.

I don't know what the situation is with current production rifles. I didn't bother to contact Larue about my issues after reading several negative CS (Larue denying that there's any issue with their rifles) experiences that other people had experienced.

1slow

07-04-2014, 11:00 PM

My eyes aren't good enough for precision shooting.
If it'll shoot to a 4 MOA Trijicon dot I'll be more than happy for my intended purpose.
I'm wanting a truck gun with more reach and pop than 5.56 for my fall/winter trips down along the border.
There's been times when I'm looking through bino's at a probable smuggler/coyote 500 yards away looking through bino's back at me that my 20" barreled 5.56 just didn't seem like it had enough reach.

In my experience FALs are a 1.5-2.5 moa gun with iron sights. I like one with a T1 if i am looking for vehicle penetration or more impact down range then 5.56 or 7.62x39.

I tried Armalite AR10s and was not impressed with durability. I think a proper AR10 type is hard to beat for accuracy but I am not up on the past 5 years of developments.

If I go down this road, I will probably go SCAR 7.62x51 as a battle/designated marksman rifle with a T1 and or 1-6x scope. It is about 1.5-2.0 lbs lighter than a FAL etc... my buddies tell me it is 1 moa with match ammo.

I would like 1 rifle that covers most of what I can do with a FAL and with an AIAW .308. Trade offs are weight/ accuracy/ handiness / durability etc....

I have not done any 500yd work in some years so I am out of the loop.

Trooper224

07-05-2014, 02:15 AM

This FAL has been my main .308 for the last twelve years: an Stg58 from DSA
http://m9.i.pbase.com/g4/64/521964/2/61497939.GunsIMG_1553.jpg
At the time it was the best bang for the buck in FAL's, now I'm not so sure as their QC has become questionable. The best description I've heard of the FAL is it's a battle axe not a dental pick. Keeping that in mind I think it fills the role pretty well. However, if I was in the market for another .308 today, I think I'd take a hard look at the SCAR17 and the Colt 901.

LittleLebowski

07-05-2014, 06:16 AM

I don't know what the situation is with current production rifles. I didn't bother to contact Larue about my issues after reading several negative CS (Larue denying that there's any issue with their rifles) experiences that other people had experienced.

You should contact LaRue. Join ARF and PM him or email him. Give him a chance to make it right, he most likely will.

TGS

07-05-2014, 01:16 PM

If you're not looking to do better than 4 MOA, why not just stick with the 5.56? With a 4 MOA gun at 500 yards, unless you can shoot with zero human error, you'll most likely be scaring them instead of hitting them. A 5.56 can do that as well, while being lighter, handier, cheaper and having much lower recoil.

If you're still set on the 308, I would go for a sear packed MM21 on a tripod. F'it. If you're not a marksman, a rifleman is the wrong solution for 500 yards.* Combined arms, baby.

Okay, it's a 23, not a 21, but you get the idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYorW_X528c

* The US Army conducted a pilot-program DMR school a few years back, and found troops performed better all around with a standard M4 instead of accurized 308 weapons. Something to note.

Kyle Reese

07-05-2014, 01:18 PM

Is a G3 variant and Comp M4 an option?

JodyH

07-05-2014, 02:22 PM

If you're not looking to do better than 4 MOA, why not just stick with the 5.56? With a 4 MOA gun at 500 yards, unless you can shoot with zero human error, you'll most likely be scaring them instead of hitting them. A 5.56 can do that as well, while being lighter, handier, cheaper and having much lower recoil.

If you're not a marksman, a rifleman is the wrong solution for 500 yards.
I shoot just fine actually.
I'm not willing to sacrifice reliability for accuracy which seems to be the norm for .308 "battle" rifles.
I don't need <1moa at the expense of reliability under southwest desert conditions.
I need a rifle that will shoot to a 2-4moa unmagnified red dot while covered in dust from bouncing around in a UTV all day.
I do want something that will punch through '70's GMC sheetmetal out to 500 yards and still damage the person hiding behind that sheetmetal and 5.56 won't do that.

1slow

07-05-2014, 02:36 PM

Of what I've used a lot FAL Para and I understand the trade offs. But I have not much experience with recent items.
Bear in mind I am very used to them and have parts etc... In 1984 they replaced my HK91s because I like the ergos better.
If I shoot in enough on SCAR 17 I may go that way but I currently lack that experience.

GJM

07-05-2014, 03:28 PM

TGS

07-05-2014, 04:54 PM

I shoot just fine actually.
I'm not willing to sacrifice reliability for accuracy which seems to be the norm for .308 "battle" rifles.
I don't need <1moa at the expense of reliability under southwest desert conditions.
I need a rifle that will shoot to a 2-4moa unmagnified red dot while covered in dust from bouncing around in a UTV all day.
I do want something that will punch through '70's GMC sheetmetal out to 500 yards and still damage the person hiding behind that sheetmetal and 5.56 won't do that.

Jody, I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative.....I'm just not following what you're writing.

You want to hit a man-sized target at 500 yards, do not have good eyes, but are spec'ing a rifle that, mechanically, can barely hit a man sized target at 500y and is topped with an unmagnified RDS. Of course, that's also going through a couple different posts. In one post you stated "hit where I want to out to 300y", another post 500y, and have gone from 2MOA to 4 MOA (a huge difference when we're talking humans at 300-500y).

That doesn't really follow, to me. There's definitely at least one incongruity there (bad eyes using an unmagnified optic on a rifle purposed to hit targets at 500y)

I hear you on the punching through sheet metal thing, though.

For the peanut gallery: Any reason to go with the HK over the SCAR? Or vice versa? Anyone with experience on both?

SecondsCount

07-05-2014, 05:28 PM

I am still pouty today, after the Larue developments.

My SCAR H twins are set up with NF 1-4 scopes, with a T1 zeroed and available for each as an alternate sighting system. Not sure about 500, but I have shot them at 400 yards with good results with the 1-4.

PS: I have heard some good reports on the M&P .308, and if this is a "truck" gun, I would feel better about leaving it unattended than a H or equivalent.

Sorry about the Larue thing. I was really close to getting one until a friend that shoots long range warned me about the accuracy issues they had seen with the new barrels.

A good friend, who is former Marine Force Recon and teaches carbine classes, has the M&P 10 and likes it. I've only seen him run it a couple times but no issues that I have seen.

Spr1

07-05-2014, 07:14 PM

The whole switch from what the PredatOBR was supposed to be and the take down model that replaced it is a questionable action for a company. The huge delay associated with creating a barrel making capability compounds that action. Being slow to respond to a buddy of mine who had been in line for 2 years did not help their image in my mind either.

The take down feature might be brilliant, but I really doubt anyone is getting 50 ft lbs (I believe that is the recommended value) on the barrel nut without a bench block and an extension to the included wrench. My guess is that failing to create or maintain sufficient preload on the nut would first express itself as poor accuracy, especially as the round count after tightening grew.

John Hearne

07-05-2014, 07:26 PM

I put together two M&P-10's for work. I ran about 100 rounds through each to break them in before handing them off. The guns ran 100% for me and seemed to be 1MOA guns. The guys who got them have run several more 100 rounds through them without issue. Maybe not a concern in the desert, but the lack of chrome lined bore bothered me.

Maple Syrup Actual

07-05-2014, 07:49 PM

What is the bore on those? Nitrided?

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

Default.mp3

07-05-2014, 08:06 PM

HCM

07-05-2014, 08:12 PM

I've had FALs and HK-91's but they are a bit dated.

I have a late 1990s/ Clinton ban era Aramalite AR-10. The one that uses converted M-14 mags. It was a 2-3 MOA gun with some reliability issues. A free float hand guard and better trigger cut groups in half. Apparently Armalite has learned a few things about getting AR-10s to run over the years. I sent mine in a few years ago for Armalites AR-10 update program and it now runs 100% with everything from Herters steel case ball to Federal GMM.

I also have a SCAR H and I am very impressed. It a 1 MOA gun when I do my part. It is truly a buy once, cry once solution. I'm Loki g to add a rail extension but that's just personal preference since I have Gorilla arms.

Two of my co-workers have M&P 10' s. I think they are the best buy out there in a .308. They shoot well out of the box and even better with a free float hand guard and better trigger. It would be my choice for what Jody describes.

Dagga Boy

07-05-2014, 08:14 PM

HCM

07-05-2014, 08:38 PM

The above are with magnified optics - with the Aimpoint M-4 I was getting about 3 MOA with the SCAR.

The LMT is also a great gun but a bit heavy. I has always struck me as more of prone / bipod/ DMR type. The slick side version didn't seem that much lighter. I still want one with a spare 260 Rem barrel though !

UNK

07-06-2014, 05:43 PM

6.5 Grendel outshoots the .308 has less recoil and fits on an AR 15 lower?
What about the new DPMS g11 ?? .308...Seems like they are trying to put the reliability back into the .AR 10

BWT

07-06-2014, 08:47 PM

I had a buddy win a DPMS SASS. I believe the barrel came loose or barrel (ETA: typo) nut loosened and developed wobble at about 300-400 rounds?

I can find specifics, but it's off hand and about 4-5 years ago.

I'd go SCAR 17. Light weight (good for carrying), folding stock (great for a pack), consistently very accurate and reliable. They're great guns, I was considering a SCAR 16 for sometime. I just eventually came to the conclusion that it didn't offer a ton my BCM AR's didn't as far as reliability, etc.

The downsides are 16" is getting to be short at 500 yards and SCARs beat up optics; so factor that into your decision.

I'd recommend a 2.5-10x scope for 500. Maybe a 1-6 at least?

Mike C

07-06-2014, 09:25 PM

GJM

07-06-2014, 09:38 PM

Darryl, that Colt 901 weighs 9.4 pounds empty -- why is that better than a SCAR H?

BWT

07-06-2014, 11:01 PM

Any of the other SME's want to chime in? I know that there is some serious knowledge floating around here and I would love to hear some of it. DocGKR, why the recommendation for the SR25 variant? Willing to shed some light, is it accuracy potential, twist rate/ammunition choices, personal pref. due to control layout, non-reprocating charging handle etc., price point/bang for the buck? I would like to hear your thoughts Sir.

BWT I would disagree with 16" being short for 500 yards in .308/7.62. Lethality comes down to placement, bullet construction/composition and velocity/energy.

I'm just saying when he starts talking about the desert, vehicle penetration and extended ranges. I think velocity becomes a factor in .308.

http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-viper-pst-2-5-10x32-ffp-riflescope.html

I've been out and about searching for scopes and this looks promising.

tremiles

07-07-2014, 12:02 AM

Dagga Boy

07-07-2014, 12:31 AM

Darryl, that Colt 901 weighs 9.4 pounds empty -- why is that better than a SCAR H?

Didn't say it was "better", I said I think its the best fit for what he is looking for. Its going on a UTV....weight ain't hugely important. Its a monolithic, so nothing to really goof around with as far as rails. He can get an adaptor to shoot 5.56 as well, which is a good option. Soft shooter and easy on optics (which is very unlike the SCAR). Reliable with cheap and easy to source PMAG's. Priced right with easy support, and its a familiar platform for most folks with "used to" AR function (the 901 actually has some nice ambi additions).

I'm not "anti SCAR" or anything, it just sounds to me like the 901 would be the best fit for what the criteria is.

dbateman

07-07-2014, 01:17 AM

Just wondering, but have you considered a 6.8 SPC? Seems like a good middle ground between the 7.62 and 5.56. DocGKR seems to think they're a pretty good "do-everything" round in the 7.62 duty ammo thread; nyeti has also spoken highly of the round for bridging the gap.

I haven't looked at the 6.8spc for about five years but I did look at it pretty hard at one point. But I couldn't see any reason to add it to my selection.

From what I remember the 308 out performed it by a fair amount and the 223 was nipping at it heels. Has there been a significant improvement in the 6.8spc round in the last few years ?

Archimagirus

07-07-2014, 01:34 AM

It's funny, I have a Colt 901 with a vortex viper 2.5-10 sitting in my safe and I love it. Had Jody posted this question 4 months ago when I still lived in NM I would offer to get together to let him try it out.

JodyH

07-07-2014, 06:50 AM

Plain no frills 18" or so .308 with a 2-4moa red dot. Maybe a flip up magnifier.
Sturdy, reliable with more smackdown than 5.56.
0-100 is where its at, but 500 yard capable.

Failure2Stop

07-07-2014, 07:07 AM

Plain no frills 18" or so .308 with a 2-4moa red dot. Maybe a flip up magnifier.
Sturdy, reliable with more smackdown than 5.56.
0-100 is where its at, but 500 yard capable.

That has M&P 10 written all over it.

Mike C

07-07-2014, 07:24 AM

I'm just saying when he starts talking about the desert, vehicle penetration and extended ranges. I think velocity becomes a factor in .308.

http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-viper-pst-2-5-10x32-ffp-riflescope.html

I've been out and about searching for scopes and this looks promising.

On a light skinned vehicle wanting to hit someone inside .308 non issue. At least in my experience. Someone sitting on the other side of the vehicle, thats another story. If you were wanting to ventilate someone sitting on the other side from 500 there are much larger calibers that would be more suitable for that but they are typically more expensive to purchase, shoot and or reload. Not to mention not very fun to shoot high volumes of.

Nyeti makes a good point about sourcing for mags and weight not being a huge issue with the gun sitting in a UTV. Caliber conversion would also be cheaper because the 901 comes with the mag adapter so JodyH could essentially throw on another upper if he wanted to shoot another caliber. Less hassle than with a SCAR and less expensive. Part sourcing would also probably be easier with the 901 as well as less expensive. I would still prefer a 1-11" or a 1-10" twist rate though.

BWT

07-07-2014, 10:59 AM

I'd agree on MP10 and 901. The SCAR is an option (the two I've fired, 16 and 17 we're comfortable) but as others including myself have alluded. It's rough on optics.

Thanks for the heads up on that cheaper offering of the same scope.

GJM

07-07-2014, 11:30 AM

Failure2Stop

07-07-2014, 12:10 PM

I was discussing this with a buddy this morning. He is part of a well known gunsmith team, and has lots of experience with these. He has two personally owned Colt 901 rifles. One had to go back to Colt, which took 4 months. He says they are WAY heavy, and he is very unimpressed. He is a Colt in the blood kind of guy, too.

I would be way more interested in a dedicated 7.62 offering from Colt.
The convertible gun is a lot of wasted space/weight for very little actual result.

BWT

07-07-2014, 03:06 PM

BWT, SWFA has those same Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x for $599. Vortex makes a nice scope for the money. I've got their Viper PST 1-4 on my 16" AR and I'm very happy with it.

I checked and it seems we have misunderstanding.

They offer a 2.5-10x44 for $599. They offer the x32 for $799. Unfortunately I don't believe the 44 is FFP.

Odin Bravo One

07-07-2014, 03:10 PM

I have an early LaRue, and never have had any issues with it.

I also have had several SCAR's, and no issues with those either. The optic issue, can generally be resolved by not putting a piece of shit on it to begin with.

Seeing as I have had the .30 caliber rifles I need for years, I have been out of the .30 Cal shopping game for awhile, and cannot add anything terrible useful to the topic. Tossing in my two cents because I got thrown under the bus, and named by name!!! Thanks GM!! :)

GJM

07-07-2014, 03:26 PM

Sorry, Sean, wasn't trying to throw you under the bus. I just remember the threads from some years ago that had all sorts of great info in them, including your first hand experiences with the SCAR and Larue:

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5709-SCAR-17-discussion&highlight=Larue

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5683-308-Semi-Auto-Rifle&highlight=Larue

JAD

07-07-2014, 04:03 PM

I was discussing this with a buddy this morning. He is part of a well known gunsmith team, and has lots of experience with these. He has two personally owned Colt 901 rifles. One had to go back to Colt, which took 4 months. He says they are WAY heavy, and he is very unimpressed. He is a Colt in the blood kind of guy, too.
Sounds like your buddy wanted Colt to make a SCAR. I agree with him.

Odin Bravo One

07-07-2014, 04:54 PM

I was just teasing GM:)

Yeah, whatever I said then, is still the info I have today.

TGS

07-07-2014, 05:20 PM

Dagga Boy

07-07-2014, 06:13 PM

I guess the internet says to get the SCAR-H

TR675

07-07-2014, 06:33 PM

As attractive as the Colt is, simply because it's a good quality rifle, am I the only one who sees a potential problem with monolithic rails/receiver?

I'm with you. I'd rather have something I can customize and replace as needed. Personal preference thing.

Totally academic in my case though. My Garand fills all of my .30cal needs, because 'Murica.

GJM

07-07-2014, 07:31 PM

As attractive as the Colt is, simply because it's a good quality rifle, am I the only one who sees a potential problem with monolithic rails/receiver?

Will it be cased or otherwise in some sort of protected position on the UTV? Because there's some pretty nasty photos out there of damage to guns strapped to ATVs. If it's a monolithic, then you're pretty much out of the entire upper. If it's a separate rail and receiver, then you just need to replace the rail. Maybe this isn't a consideration with the UTV as opposed to an ATV, however.

I was very surprised by my friend's comment. I called him after seeing reference to the 901 in this thread, remembered he had them, and expected him to tell me how great they are. He is a major Colt person, builds on Colt 1911 pistols frequently, recommends Colt AR-15 carbines almost exclusively, had bought two of the Colt rifles through friends at Colt, and registered them in his state. I have no experience at all with the 901, just passing on what he said.

Dagga Boy

07-07-2014, 09:38 PM

As attractive as the Colt is, simply because it's a good quality rifle, am I the only one who sees a potential problem with monolithic rails/receiver?

Will it be cased or otherwise in some sort of protected position on the UTV? Because there's some pretty nasty photos out there of damage to guns strapped to ATVs. If it's a monolithic, then you're pretty much out of the entire upper. If it's a separate rail and receiver, then you just need to replace the rail. Maybe this isn't a consideration with the UTV as opposed to an ATV, however.

I have a very long dedicated history with monolithic uppers (LMT) including one of my most heavily abused rifles. Sorry, not buying it. If you bend a MRP, 6940 or 901 upper,you are going to have a lot more issues than just replacing a forend with a afermarket rail system. What I have seen a crap load of is jacked up rifles due to poor installation of aftermarket rails, jacked up gas block installs, and a host of other things. I have also seen far more loose rails than bent monolithic's.

Monolithic guns are great for folks who just want to buy the gun and have a few accessories on it. For a majority of folks it is a far better solution than buying a gun and then installing a rail.

TGS

07-07-2014, 10:48 PM

I have a very long dedicated history with monolithic uppers (LMT) including one of my most heavily abused rifles. Sorry, not buying it. If you bend a MRP, 6940 or 901 upper,you are going to have a lot more issues than just replacing a forend with a afermarket rail system. What I have seen a crap load of is jacked up rifles due to poor installation of aftermarket rails, jacked up gas block installs, and a host of other things. I have also seen far more loose rails than bent monolithic's.

Monolithic guns are great for folks who just want to buy the gun and have a few accessories on it. For a majority of folks it is a far better solution than buying a gun and then installing a rail.

Well, bending isn't the only thing that can damage a rail when an ATV or UTV rolls it onto rocks. If you don't buy it, then that's cool too. Fortunately Obama does not tax us for not buying a specific rail system, so if you like your monolithic, you can keep your monolithic.

Charlie Foxtrot

07-07-2014, 11:39 PM

Any thoughts about the PTR-91F? I've got fond memories of a friend's HK-91.

1slow

07-07-2014, 11:51 PM

I took a HK91 to Gunsite in July 1982 ( as well as 1911, 870). 91 is very reliable, accurate, very muzzle heavy. FAL is close to the same weight but is less muzzle heavy and has better ergos.

UNK

07-08-2014, 09:11 AM

This realistically... http://alexanderarms.com/products/65-grendel

This since you won't have to hump it... http://alexanderarms.com/products/ulfberht

Charlie Foxtrot

07-08-2014, 09:31 AM

Haven't seen any conversation on the other major AR player: Ruger's SR-762. Good, bad, indifferent?

I believe both use the Magpul pattern AR-10 magazines. correct?

HCM

07-08-2014, 10:16 AM

Haven't seen any conversation on the other major AR player: Ruger's SR-762. Good, bad, indifferent?

I believe both use the Magpul pattern AR-10 magazines. correct?

Indifferent. You are correct on the mags. The early ones had some teething problems relating to gen2 vs gen 3 PMAGS though this appears to have been sorted out. Accuracy is ok but the piston adds weight and limits you to Rugers hand guard / no free float.

I like the looks of the SR-762 but can't really justify the additional cost vs the M&P 10.

NickA

07-08-2014, 01:17 PM

Sean O

07-08-2014, 04:17 PM

Indifferent. You are correct on the mags. The early ones had some teething problems relating to gen2 vs gen 3 PMAGS though this appears to have been sorted out. Accuracy is ok but the piston adds weight and limits you to Rugers hand guard / no free float.

I like the looks of the SR-762 but can't really justify the additional cost vs the M&P 10.

I would have to agree. I currently own a Ruger SR-762, and so far it has been a good gun. With a Viper PST 1-4, I see about 2-moa with FGMM at 100 yards. Thats with the factory trigger and no rear bag (and with me shooting, which harms the accuracy of any rifle). I currently have 260 rounds through the gun with out any malfunctions (Internet commando says: "IT'S FLAWLESS!!!!!").

The reason I went for the Ruger is simply for the adjustable gas block. 100 of those rounds are through a Saker 7.62, and the gas settings work as advertised. Although the balancing point is different with a piston, the Ruger is noticeably lighter than my friends LMT.

There is just part of me that still does not completely trust Ruger for anything serious, but the rifle so far has functioned well and can shoot better than my abilities. Next I may add a Geissele trigger, get a rear bag and put a higher power scope to see what I can do with it.

HCM

07-08-2014, 06:07 PM

I would have to agree. I currently own a Ruger SR-762, and so far it has been a good gun. With a Viper PST 1-4, I see about 2-moa with FGMM at 100 yards. Thats with the factory trigger and no rear bag (and with me shooting, which harms the accuracy of any rifle). I currently have 260 rounds through the gun with out any malfunctions (Internet commando says: "IT'S FLAWLESS!!!!!").

The reason I went for the Ruger is simply for the adjustable gas block. 100 of those rounds are through a Saker 7.62, and the gas settings work as advertised. Although the balancing point is different with a piston, the Ruger is noticeably lighter than my friends LMT.

There is just part of me that still does not completely trust Ruger for anything serious, but the rifle so far has functioned well and can shoot better than my abilities. Next I may add a Geissele trigger, get a rear bag and put a higher power scope to see what I can do with it.

The LMT is a great gun but as I stated earlier, the weight pretty much restricts it to a prone/ Bipod / DMR envelope. If I wanted a Piston AR -10 I would chose the Ruger. Like my SCAR, it would make a TX great hog gun.

I'm tempted to put a 2.5 X 10 on the SCAR but the 1x4 Trijicon is better suited to my actual applications.

How is the heat out by the piston of the Ruger after a few rounds ?

GJM

07-08-2014, 08:46 PM

Other than lower cost, is there anything about the M&P that makes it more attractive than a SCAR-H?

HCM

07-08-2014, 09:10 PM

Other than lower cost, is there anything about the M&P that makes it more attractive than a SCAR-H?

Commonality of training for those with significant AR time and the ubiquity of PMAGS.

frozentundra

07-08-2014, 11:06 PM

Commonality of training for those with significant AR time and the ubiquity of PMAGS.

Other than lower cost, is there anything about the M&P that makes it more attractive than a SCAR-H?

Not as likely to chew up some optics?

Odin Bravo One

07-09-2014, 02:04 AM

Suvorov

07-09-2014, 02:53 PM

The optics I have seen the SCAR chew up are low rent hunks of shit that I wouldn't put on a serious use gun in the first place, regardless of caliber, make, or model.

SCARs do not beat up quality optics.

Can you give me an ideal of what is quality here? Are we talking Knight Force and US Optics range or would a mid range Luepold or Burris make the cut?

Charlie Foxtrot

07-09-2014, 04:19 PM

Commonality of training for those with significant AR time and the ubiquity of PMAGS.

Wuff - Fifty bucks per SCAR-H mag. That's gonna leave a mark. Twenty for P-Mags.

Mike C

07-09-2014, 07:24 PM

Suvorov, I'm not Sean M but I'll say again. Bonded Lenses, quality mount. I don't know why anyone would drop $2.5-2.8k on a decent rifle for personal use and drop garbage on top. If you can't see it and ID it, you can't hit it to begin with regardless of weapon capabilities. As for mag prices if you look you can find factory 20 rounders for about $35.00 you just have to look. There are also polymer mags available for range work or classes for $30, (I can send some links. I have been squirreling away mags for my purchase). Hell $30 bucks is what I've see local stores selling, "hi-cap Glock mags" for. I really don't see the big deal, if you can drop 2.5k plus on a nice rifle $40 bucks is a drop in the bucket. I would love to see cheaper prices but that is unlikely given the market conditions. $30-40 bucks for a quality mag is money well spent. One thing I learned in the sand box is don't chince on mags, maintenance & lube.

HCM

07-09-2014, 08:35 PM

Can you give me an ideal of what is quality here? Are we talking Knight Force and US Optics range or would a mid range Luepold or Burris make the cut?

Also not Sean M, but in his SCAR thread a few years ago he mentioned running a commercial Leupold 1.5-5 on tne SCAR H without issue.

HCM

07-09-2014, 08:40 PM

SJC3081

07-10-2014, 10:32 AM

Is a G3 variant and Comp M4 an option?
Weld a 1913 rail and you have proven SHTF rifle.

HCM

07-10-2014, 12:40 PM

Weld a 1913 rail and you have proven SHTF rifle.

PTR will do this on G3's - quote was $180 including shipping and re- finish. This addresses the optics issue but the Ergo's , trigger and manual of arms on the HK pattern guns all leave something to be desired.

Charlie Foxtrot

07-10-2014, 01:01 PM

Nice discussion, I've learned a lot.

Just an observation from a battle rifle noob: the SCAR-H and AR-10 seem to be the path of the future. The HK-91, M1A and the FN/FAL are of the past. Very cool, but future development will likely be on the SCAR and AR platforms.

I'm seriously thinking about the M&P-10. And a metric buttload of P-Mags. And ammo. And training.

LittleLebowski

07-10-2014, 07:21 PM

The optics I have seen the SCAR chew up are low rent hunks of shit that I wouldn't put on a serious use gun in the first place, regardless of caliber, make, or model.

Like ELCANs? :D

YVK

07-10-2014, 10:34 PM

Anecdotally, my SCAR-H kicked ass out of LaRue offset mount. The attached T1 was fine.

TGS

07-14-2014, 06:32 PM

How do you guys feel about the clamp on gas block with the M&P10?

Why are only pinned gas blocks acceptable on AR15s, but people are okay with and recommending the M&P10?

Dagga Boy

07-14-2014, 09:12 PM

How do you guys feel about the clamp on gas block with the M&P10?

Why are only pinned gas blocks acceptable on AR15s, but people are okay with and recommending the M&P10?

I agree......which is why I wasn't part of "people" on this one. It was one of the things that turned me off on the whole 6.8 SPC stuff. It was okay to bash companies for using the actual SAMMI spec chamber dimensions as being heresy and anyone using one was an idiot, but if you were using a "hobby grade" rifle with the current "in" chamber and barrel twist of the week in a gun most of my circle wouldn't touch, you were a genius.

I actually got into the 6.8 SPC because at the time, most of the .308 AR platforms had fleas, and it was a big issue to really do optics right on the legacy HK91/G3 and FN-FAL platforms. The .308 platforms are much better today, but many of them still aren't quite there.

1slow

07-14-2014, 10:13 PM

Having used scoped HK91s and FALs I fully agree there are problems.

HCM

07-16-2014, 05:15 PM

How do you guys feel about the clamp on gas block with the M&P10?

Why are only pinned gas blocks acceptable on AR15s, but people are okay with and recommending the M&P10?

Have you heard of or seen any come loose on M&P 10's? I understand they are pretty tough to get off. I also think some of the issue with gas blocks comes down to factory / proper install vs Bubba install.

vaspence

07-16-2014, 09:07 PM

The gas block was a concern when I bought my M&P 10 but hasn't proved to be a problem. It's easy to keep an eye on and I don't really have plans of running 1000 round a day classes with this gun. It works well as a hunting rifle, shoots very accurately for my needs and allows for quick follow ups if necessary on a very familiar platform. Mine has a 2-7 on it and has taken deer out to 242 yards.

BWT

07-16-2014, 10:55 PM

I didn't realize the gas block wasn't pinned.

With the amount of heat and pressure that the gas block experiences, how critical it is for function, and given this is being pondered for anything but range use. I'd have to side with nyeti and remove my endorsement of the M&P 10.

My concerns were any thread locker might burn off and it's possible the screw would come loose. Unlikely, yes, but possible. I saw my Glock front sight come loose twice from either vibration or just blue Loctite burning off. I eventually went to red Loctite for that reason.

Just my $.02, what decision did you come to Jody?

1slow

07-17-2014, 12:01 AM

If it not a military durable piece it is a range toy.

iakdrago

07-17-2014, 11:24 AM

Maple Syrup Actual

07-17-2014, 02:33 PM

vaspence

07-17-2014, 07:01 PM

Is Larue using a screwed/clamp on gas block on the Predators?

HCM

07-17-2014, 07:34 PM

Is Larue using a screwed/clamp on gas block on the Predators?

Not sure about Larue, but the military uses DD and KAC set screw gas blocks on several .mil weapons including the Mk12, the M4A1 block 2 and the M4A1 CQBR.

Proper installation, including dimpling and appropriate thread locker compound is critical though.

Dagga Boy

07-17-2014, 07:36 PM

Not sure about Larue, but the military uses DD and KAC set screw gas blocks on several .mil weapons including the Mk12, the M4A1 block 2 and the M4A1 CQBR.

Proper installation, including dimpling and appropriate thread locker compound is critical though.

This is the key right here.

HCM

07-17-2014, 07:45 PM

If 2-3 moa is all you need and a red dot is the intended optic, an 18" M14 is kind of a nice solution.

I built a lot of m14s at one time. I got out of those because mounting anything else is a pain and I don't go for red dots on 308s.

But if you want a red dot, a scout is a cool gun.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

I agree. I have a 1999 vintage M1A scout with an Aimpoint comp M it's nice but misanthrope is spot on regarding it's limitations. Even using the aimpoint low ring you need a cheek pad. It was my California, Peoples Democratic Republic of rifle when I was behind the granola curtain but there are better options in free America. If I find a nice .308 Garand to take over nostalgia duty it might go away.

ASH556

07-18-2014, 12:08 PM

That has M&P 10 written all over it.

Yup! 'Swat i did:

I picked up this Smith & Wesson M&P10 a week ago and have been putting it together Cash style (1 pc at a time) as the parts arrive. As of this writing, I am waiting for the final piece, which is an IWC QD sling point to attach in the handguard instead of the rail piece/sling QD combo thingy that MI includes with the handguard. Let's start with a rundown of the gear:

Rifle: Smith & Wesson M&P10, .308 Win., 18" 5R lightweight barrel
Handguard: MI 308 SS freefloat tube handguard, modified with screws drilled and tapped through the handguard and into the barrel nut for better security.
Charging Handle: Factory (it's proprietary) with Badger Gen 2 Latch
Gas Block: MI Low Profile 0.75" Gas Block
Brake: JP Enterprises "Tactical Compensator" 2.25 x 1
Sights: KAC 99051 folding front, Matech folding rear
Light/mount: Gear Sector 6P mount, Surefire G2X
Optics: Trijicon TA11HG ACOG in Larue mount
Buttstock: B5 Gen 1 Sopmod w/Gear Sector QD sling attachment
Grip: BCM Gunfighter Mod1
Trigger: Geissele SSA-E

**One modification I want to be sure and mention is the replacement of the ejection port cover rod. Some may not know that there are two lengths of this rod. The standard AR10 rod and the AR10T rod, which is 1/8" longer. When changing from the delta ring assembly to a freefloat handguard, you need the longer AR10T rod. Otherwise, the standard rod will walk forward under recoil and out of its recess in the receiver under the deflector. I got mine directly from Armalite.

The idea behind this configuration is to be a general purpose outside rifle for hunting deer and other large game in the Southeast US as well as being available to provide fast and accurate fire if needed from 50-800 yds. Some of the options above are self-explanatory. I chose the compensator because the factory muzzle device is like 3.5" long, and not terribly effective. I figured at .308 is loud anyway, I may as well gain the advantage of faster follow-up shots and being able to spot my own shots. The JP Brake accomplishes this. The ACOG is the fall-out of a very long journey I made through most of the popular Low-medium powered AR optics. There's a thread on here you can search for and read if you want to know more about that. I don't want this to be a precision rifle necessarily, but I do want some magnification and the ability to compensate for bullet drop at ranges. The ACOG does that, all while being rugged, lightweight, compact, having bright and clear glass, and an illuminated reticle.

Now, before getting into this rifle, I read as much as I could online about it and honestly was disappointed at how little good info there was about it. Hence, my hope in starting this thread is that info is shared and those interested can ask questions and gain insight into a future purchase. I had read about this rifle being "MOA accurate." Well, without pics to prove it, we all know that MOA gets stretched a lot. So, I went and bought a box of Federal Gold Medal 168gr .308 from the local gun shop and mounted a Zeiss 3-9x40 (the highest magnification scope I own) scope on the rifle to give it the best chance to show what it could do. The procedure was to setup a target at 100yds. I planned to fire 4 consecutive 5-shot groups at 100yds to capture the effects of the barrel heating, etc. First, though, I had to confirm that the scope was going to hit what I was aiming at, so I fired 7 rounds of PMC 147gr at a 2" aiming dot below the actual target to confirm that the scope was close. So, technically, I suppose I began the test with a somewhat "hot" barrel and got it hotter as the test went on.

I loaded a 20 round PMAG with the 20 rounds of Federal 168gr and got prone in the bed of my truck with the forend resting on my hunting pack. The rear of the stock was supported by a sandbag. I will post the pictures of the groups below in chronological firing order (first through fourth). I made a slight windage adjustment after firing the first group, and you'll note it below. I fired at a rate of roughly 1 round every 3-4 seconds. I do wish I had a higher power scope for the accuracy test, though. While the Zeiss is a wonderfully clear hunting scope, the crosshairs are a bit thick and 9X is a little shy, so I couldn't really see where on the red dot I was aiming because the crosshairs covered the whole thing. Even so, I think the rifle did well. The Good Lord saw fit to bless us with rain yesterday, so I got to fire the groups in a steady drizzle. So here are the groups:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2834/10924724825_f2b4eec858_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10924724825/)
M&P10 grp 1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10924724825/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7424/10925016403_bf398288c8_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10925016403/)
M&P10 grp 2 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10925016403/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3748/10925017023_76e8e35211_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10925017023/)
M&P10 grp 3 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10925017023/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3793/10924793356_0d1239404d_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10924793356/)
M&P10 grp 4 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10924793356/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3828/10916262873_1f69437d13_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10916262873/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10916262873/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7331/10925284043_5b7e242ef8_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10925284043/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10925284043/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

I find it interesting to note that the last group fired was the best because at that point the barrel was good and hot. I think I had probably just settled into the best position and firing rhythm. It does speak very well of the barrel, though, that even with heat the POI doesn't shift and the shots aren't stringing. When I was looking at getting this rifle, I laid out a 1.5-2MOA accuracy criteria. This rifle beats that easily. Now, with the ACOG, based on some shots I fired while zeroing it with my Federal 150gr Fusion hunting load, 2" is the best I could do, so my hunting combo (rifle, optic, ammo) is a 2MOA combo. Still works for me!

As of yesterday, I have fired 73 rounds through the rifle. I have had two malfunctions. Both were with 147gr PMC, which I suspect is loaded to Nato pressure (box is labeled 7.62x51). The first was a failure to lock back on an empty magazine and the second was a failure to feed where the spent round was fired and ejected, but the bolt partially closed on the round, about halfway up the brass with the primer end of the round still down in the magazine. Both of these were after I had fired the 20 rounds of match ammo and so the rifle was dirty. The combination of a dirty chamber, rain, lack of lube (I initially lubed the rifle with Slip 2000 a week prior to this range session when I first got it and had not added any since), and low-powered ammo are to blame for the 2 issues...not the rifle.

Overall the rifle feels to me about like an 18" AR15. It's really trim and pretty lightweight. Completely different from handling an LMT or a KAC, which could not be mistaken for an AR15. Also, there's no denying that the price point of the M&P10 makes it attractive.

Here are a few pics of the rifle in its final configuration. You'll note the ARD removed from the ACOG in some of the pics...that stupid thing is now a permanent resident of my workbench. The little honeycombs hold water like you wouldn't believe and I very quickly couldn't see through the optic anymore....remove the ARD, problem solved. To me, that's a critical issue and since I'm much more likely to encounter rain than a countersniper who sees the glare off my objective lens...the ARD stays off.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3681/10916106734_3a9b7953c9_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10916106734/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10916106734/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7426/10916102884_83c000b549_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10916102884/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10916102884/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7307/10916019916_0decd25c35_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10916019916/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10916019916/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2852/10916097554_5c8f429cfb_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10916097554/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/10916097554/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

BWT

07-19-2014, 03:24 PM

If it not a military durable piece it is a range toy.

I wouldn't say that; I would say if the gas block comes loose you now have a bolt action rifle. The first priority with anything defensive is reliability. If it's not functioning when you need it... Accuracy, ergonomics, scope choice don't really matter so much anymore do they?

JodyH

07-26-2014, 05:59 PM

I bought a Fulton Armory T26 Garand Tanker in .30-06.
Because... "Get off my lawn! 'Murica!".
Pics and shooting impressions when I get it in a few weeks.
I'll be back in the market for a .308 "battle rifle" early 2015.

1slow

07-26-2014, 06:15 PM

Garands are fun, and a tanker is neat. Some black tip and you are GTG.

John Hearne

07-26-2014, 06:19 PM

A Tanker with a forward mounted T-1 would solve most problems AND it's a very classy way to deliver the hate.

JAD

07-26-2014, 08:56 PM

I bought a Fulton Armory T26 Garand Tanker in .30-06.

That is double-Y badass, right there.

GJM

07-26-2014, 09:58 PM

A Tanker is neat. I have had two built by Roland Beaver, and still have one now.

What are you doing about an optic?

Odin Bravo One

07-27-2014, 01:45 AM

Garands are fun, and a tanker is neat. Some black tip and you are GTG.

I'm genuinely curious about the intended use made in the commment regarding black tip in .30-06

1slow

07-27-2014, 09:17 AM

I thought one of the purposes stated in an early post was vehicle penetration. I seem to remember black tip was good for this. Maybe my memory is going.

SecondsCount

07-27-2014, 07:10 PM

A Tanker should get the job done. Ping!

DocGKR

07-28-2014, 03:25 AM

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/M1H1_zps4d16e8ed.jpg

SteveB

07-28-2014, 05:55 AM

A Tanker with a forward mounted T-1 would solve most problems AND it's a very classy way to deliver the hate.

.308

2480

Alpha Sierra

07-29-2014, 10:32 AM

SecondsCount

07-29-2014, 03:00 PM

How about a 18 - 20 inch heavy barreled bolt action in a quality fiberglass stock?

Howa 1500 barelled action in a Manners MCS-T4A with DBM mini chassis. Add AICS mags and the scope/base/ring setup of choice.

If bolt action is a consideration then I would throw in one of the Mossberg MVP Patrol rifles in 308. Short, medium weight barrel for ease of handling, flash hider, and magazine fed from the standardized SR25/DPMS 308 AR mags.

I have the 5.56 version in the Predator MVP and am pretty happy with it. Accuracy is easily 1 MOA and I have many 5-shot groups that are near 1/2, and the AR mag feature works well. The only issue is the plastic trigger guard as I got a little enthusiastic torquing mine down and it is starting to crack. Good basic rifles for under $600.

GJM

07-29-2014, 03:10 PM

I have a 6.5 Grendel built on the detachable magazine, small 7.62x39 CZ action that is lightweight, accurate and a fantastic shooter. It wears a 2.5-8 Leupold with a custom reticle, with the crosshairs at 200, and holdover dots for 300, 400, 500 and 600 yards. Could certainly get someone's attention at 500 yards, in a PC, trim form factor bolt.

SecondsCount

07-29-2014, 03:14 PM

Alpha Sierra

07-29-2014, 03:44 PM

JodyH

08-28-2014, 11:30 AM

Still waiting on the Tanker Garand.

Did make the mistake of wandering by the black rifle rack at the gunstore while I was buying my boy a M&P9.
Whaddaya know... Colt 901 sitting there taunting me.
I made a down payment and it'll be coming home with me next week.

That was a somewhat expensive trip to the gunstore ($1000 for the M&P9 Pro CORE with Leupold Deltapoint) turned into a damn expensive trip to the gunstore (another $2200 for the Colt 901).
Did I mention he also ordered me a Beretta 1301 Tactical ($1000)?
And I still gotta buy a stash of .308 ammo and I'm looking hard at an ACOG...

This is gonna cost me big time when the wife finds out the total and goes on a shopping spree of her own.
:p

John Hearne

08-28-2014, 11:35 AM

FWIW, Troy now makes a complete 308. They weigh more than the S&W but this is due to a continuous .75 barrel contour and the use of billett uppers and lowers. They only sell blinged out guns but the cost comparison to a similar M&P is very close. Their non-match gun weighs 8.6 lbs.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

Dropkick

12-04-2014, 08:51 PM

Any reason that M1A has not been added to the list?
The Scout Squad by springfield is 18," has a scout mount--perfect for a red dot.
There is just something very American/nostalgic about patrolling your land with an M1A as opposed to any other rifle.

If 2-3 moa is all you need and a red dot is the intended optic, an 18" M14 is kind of a nice solution.
I built a lot of m14s at one time. I got out of those because mounting anything else is a pain and I don't go for red dots on 308s.
But if you want a red dot, a scout is a cool gun.

I agree. I have a 1999 vintage M1A scout with an Aimpoint comp M it's nice but misanthrope is spot on regarding it's limitations. Even using the aimpoint low ring you need a cheek pad. It was my California, Peoples Democratic Republic of rifle when I was behind the granola curtain but there are better options in free America. If I find a nice .308 Garand to take over nostalgia duty it might go away.

Going back to the M1A Scout Squad, are there any other Pros/Cons to them? I'm interested in one, but don't know anything about the M1A series rifles.

Chuck Haggard

12-04-2014, 09:31 PM

I just picked up a Colt in a trade, trying to decide if I keep it or sell ot off. The idea of semi-auto .308s bites me now and again, the last time it meant I ended up with two M1As, one the SOCOM and the other a match gun.

Suvorov

12-04-2014, 09:36 PM

Going back to the M1A Scout Squad, are there any other Pros/Cons to them? I'm interested in one, but don't know anything about the M1A series rifles.

Springfield's QC is a little spotty. I have seen one brand new one at the range that kept shedding its operating rod, but I have seen dozens that operated just fine. If you have the $$$ you might want to look at a Fulton or Smith, but you will be spending a lot for the gun. RockOla (http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-rifles/rock-ola-m14-308-battle-rifle-detail.html?Itemid=0)(name only) has recently come on line making M14 clones and seem to be a viable option to Springfield.

I have a early 90s vintage M1A NM which other than the receiver is pretty much all Winchester parts. If you can find a rifle of this vintage, I would say to purchase it as they are sought after by 400 lb M14 fanboys, (http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/12/04/the-5-most-overrated-guns-of-all-time/) but not everyone who has one knows their worth. Newer Springfield rifles are mostly commercial parts and as such are not theoretically of the same quality as the GI parts of years past. Whether it will ever be an issue is the question. Fulton and Smith guns are still largely built on GI parts and that dives their costs up to the $3000 range. I also have a Socom 16 of mid 2000's vintage. I purchased it over a Squad Scout because 16 inches was all the rage back then and have had buyers remorse ever since. It certainly has not met my accuracy expectations. It has a mixture of GI and commercial parts. Due to the moderate number of GI parts and because we now have longarm registration in Kalifornia for newly transferred rifles my plan is on keeping it and sending it off to have a new 18" Criterion barrel put on it as well as as many GI parts as I can afford.

I have a special place in my heart for the M14 series rifle. I also love the AR15 series. The M14 is iconic, a nice shooting rifle, and in places like Kalifornia, allow you to change magazines and skirt around assault weapons laws. At the end of the day however, my opinion is that unless you have some legal requirements or a distinct attraction to the M14 - you will be better served for less money with a 7.62 AR series rifle.

JodyH

12-04-2014, 09:36 PM

I ended up switching my Colt deposit over to a H&K MR762.
I took it to a 3-gun match and had mega satisfaction when I broke one of their steel targets at 200 yards.

Crews

12-06-2014, 05:48 AM

Any thoughts on the CMMG offerings in .308? The CBR seems like it might be a nice choice.

Maple Syrup Actual

12-06-2014, 12:03 PM

Going back to the M1A Scout Squad, are there any other Pros/Cons to them? I'm interested in one, but don't know anything about the M1A series rifles.

Downsides are low comb height and an operating system which hangs a ton of reciprocating weight off the barrel and pins a ton of weird parts to said barrel.

They flop around like crazy when you shoot them, in a kind of unpredictable way. So tuning them for accuracy can be a little frustrating (although it's totally possible, if you're patient enough).

The low comb height means that optics, which as previously mentioned are a pain to mount, also line up perfectly with your eye. Well, if you have an eye on the top of your head, at least. For everyone else it's either comb riser, which works but is kind of a kludge fix, or growing a beard long enough to get some kind of beard weld on the stock. But these days if I want .308, I probably want a low-powered variable optic, so it means I would have to raise the comb height. But then the irons are useless, and I am now conditioned to having access to back up sights, so I don't like the optic-only solution.

They're a weird in-between gun. If you want an issue-weapon-tough, open-sighted hunting rifle with 2-3 MOA accuracy and the ability to sustain a rate of fire that couldn't possibly be done with a bolt gun, the M14 is your machine. But who wants that?

If I had to pay US prices for them, I don't think I would have gotten into them. They just don't integrate well with most peoples' applications and preferences anymore.

rudy99

12-08-2014, 11:08 AM

Too late to the show on this, but Rainier Arms (http://www.rainierarms.com/complete-firearms-class-iii/rifles/complete-rifles?manufacturer=60) has a complete 308 option available for about $2,700. They (the company, not the rifle) have a pretty good rep and the price point seems to be somewhat in between the DPMS options and the Larue/KAC options. Weighs in at 8lbs, 0.6oz.

HCM

12-08-2014, 11:20 AM

Speaking of M1A's, does anyone have experience with the VLTOR replacement stock ?

I got to play with one on a used SOCOM at the local fun store - it takes AR pistol grips and has an AR/M4 stock tube. What really caught my interest was the M4 stock tube appears to be adjustable for height. it appears the whole tube can be slid up or down where it attaches to the stock - eliminating the need for an add on cheek riser with optics.

TGS

12-08-2014, 09:33 PM

I ended up switching my Colt deposit over to a H&K MR762.
I took it to a 3-gun match and had mega satisfaction when I broke one of their steel targets at 200 yards.

Have you shot it for accuracy yet?

Curious to hear what sort of groups you get, and if it opens up with heat.

JodyH

12-08-2014, 10:02 PM

Have you shot it for accuracy yet?

Curious to hear what sort of groups you get, and if it opens up with heat.
I've put 5 shots into 1" at 100Y with a 3x ACOG and Hornady OTM and had no problems hitting a 6" plate at 200Y from kneeling at the end of a 35 round 3 gun stage with PMC Bronze.
That's good enough for me.

Dropkick

12-09-2014, 10:28 AM

They're a weird in-between gun. If you want an issue-weapon-tough, open-sighted hunting rifle with 2-3 MOA accuracy and the ability to sustain a rate of fire that couldn't possibly be done with a bolt gun, the M14 is your machine. But who wants that?

Me, kind of. I was looking for something that would be semi-auto, >= .30 caliber, and legal up and down the East coast, that I could use to hunt with, and also be able to slap a full size mag for the rest of the time. However, I recently heard that semi-autos are illegal for hunting in PA... So there goes that. And if it wasn't for the NY SAFE Act, I'd be all over a AR-10 What's a dude to do?

LittleLebowski

12-09-2014, 10:59 AM

Me, kind of. I was looking for something that would be semi-auto, >= .30 caliber, and legal up and down the East coast, that I could use to hunt with, and also be able to slap a full size mag for the rest of the time. However, I recently heard that semi-autos are illegal for hunting in PA... So there goes that. And if it wasn't for the NY SAFE Act, I'd be all over a AR-10 What's a dude to do?

*not* hunt in NY

Alpha Sierra

12-09-2014, 04:35 PM

TGS

12-09-2014, 05:38 PM

I know it sounds hard to believe, but there are ways to run a bolt action rifle that give an effective rate of fire (rounds on tager/unit time) that is equal to or greater than a semi auto when the distance is more than 100 yards.

http://youtu.be/nrtI8wDj3aQ

While it's a cool comparo, I wouldn't take that same conclusion you did.

It's a 4 MOA battle rifle, probably firing full power ammunition, handicapped by only loading 1/4 of the rounds possible, with combat sights, being fired by a soldier versus a multi-thousand dollar match rifle, purpose built and setup to be fired in the prone position and most likely weighing twice as much as the G3, probably firing tailored ammunition, by a shooter with all sorts of equipment that weren't available to the soldier.

So.....

no.

A more apt comparison would be a JP Enterprises 308 match rifle vs that thing. Or a Lee-Enfield vs the G3.

Chance

01-03-2015, 10:00 AM

So, of the precision AR-10s out there, who is still worth it? I had been lusting after an OBR, but I guess that's no longer the case.

JodyH

01-03-2015, 10:25 AM

With Hornady OTM my MR762 with 3x ACOG shoots 5 round groups under 1.5" @ 200Y, and has been 100% reliable for over 1000 rounds. Only cleaned and lubed once before the first range session.

Chance

01-03-2015, 11:34 AM

With Hornady OTM my MR762 with 3x ACOG shoots 5 round groups under 1.5" @ 200Y, and has been 100% reliable for over 1000 rounds. Only cleaned and lubed once before the first range session.

Ugh, are you suggesting I become one of those... "HK"... "people"? ;)

JodyH

01-03-2015, 12:58 PM

HecK no.

CanineCombatives

01-09-2015, 08:38 PM

SCAR 17 was my go to heavy carbine before I switched to this, PWS MK216, CMC 2 stage, Kahles K16i, Alamo Tactical DLOC, Thunderbeast CB7,
tuned by Citizen Arms, shoots 1/2 moa with factory match ammo like black hills, federal SMK and Hornady.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/OMEGANOX/MK216_zps1362f401.jpg

LSP972

01-10-2015, 10:45 AM

... my go to heavy carbine ...

Heavy carbine???

Guess I've been out of the game longer than I thought…

.

Crews

01-10-2015, 07:42 PM

CC, can you please outline the factors leading to your decision to go with a piston AR over a Scar? I'm about to get one or the other, your input would be appreciated.

CanineCombatives

01-11-2015, 01:12 PM

SCAR17 is an amazing carbine, accurate, light weight, very intuitive controls once you have the geiselle trigger, ultra reliable and very controllable due to the design.
For me it boiled down to 3 big factors, the first is the cost to maintain and service it as a hard use work gun with high round counts, that being outrageous, just a field service parts kit retails for $500 so unless your working for uncle sugar it's a very costly weapon to maintain parts wise. The second is the proprietary magazines that are
basically modified FAL mags, again, far costlier than the newest polymer mags like the lancer L7's and PMAG 25rd and not the sturdiest with the baseplates needing to be
taped, at this point I still wouldn't trust any of the aftermarket lowers that accept SR25 mags in a work gun, for a range queen sure. The last factor is the ergonomics, the
SCAR just doesn't have the ergonomic comfort at least for me that an AR10 based platform has and the adjustability to dial it in perfectly, for example I always ran the stock fully collapsed and still would have wanted it shorter while wearing a PC but didn't have the option.
I've had a relationship with PWS for about a year and a half now and it's the only system I run now across the long gun spectrum, this is the newest version of their MK216 which has forged receivers instead of billet making it as light as the SCAR, as I said mine is tuned to 1/2moa which the SCAR could never match out of the box, it takes all measure of SR25 mags including the 25rd PMAG in the picture, cost no more to maintain than my .556 platform carbines and has a vastly lower parts count than the SCAR.
I run everything suppressed so adjustable gas is a necessity for me, this system is as easy as it gets to go from suppressed to unsuppressed in seconds.
PWS's operating system is a different animal to anything else out there and the only AR piston I would ever run, I got my first demo unit about 3 years ago and ran over 20k through it before I decided to go further with them, it's really the only piston system made that doesn't force a tradeoff in some area from direct gas, just benefits.

Take a look on PWS's youtube channel, watch the cutaway video of the system in action, it will explain a lot.

Default.mp3

01-11-2015, 01:44 PM

this is the newest version of their MK216 which has forged receivers instead of billet making it as light as the SCAR

Any idea on the exact weight? Their website still shows the MK216 to be 10 oz. heavier than a SCAR-17S. I'm sold on PWS, as I run a MK110 as my primary, but the weight of the old billet MK216 was a significant downside for me.

TGS

01-11-2015, 02:21 PM

I've had a relationship with PWS for about a year and a half now and it's the only system I run now across the long gun spectrum.

Can you please disclose your relationship in accordance with the forum rules?

CanineCombatives

01-11-2015, 03:56 PM

Any idea on the exact weight? Their website still shows the MK216 to be 10 oz. heavier than a SCAR-17S. I'm sold on PWS, as I run a MK110 as my primary, but the weight of the old billet MK216 was a significant downside for me.

I'm pretty sure the 7075 receivers cut 4 or 6oz out of that deficit but the combination of the polymer stock and receivers and pencil barrel on
the SCAR is going to be really tough to match weight wise, so I should have said NEARLY as light as the SCAR.

Alpha Sierra

01-11-2015, 06:46 PM

While it's a cool comparo, I wouldn't take that same conclusion you did.

It's a 4 MOA battle rifle, probably firing full power ammunition, handicapped by only loading 1/4 of the rounds possible, with combat sights, being fired by a soldier versus a multi-thousand dollar match rifle, purpose built and setup to be fired in the prone position and most likely weighing twice as much as the G3, probably firing tailored ammunition, by a shooter with all sorts of equipment that weren't available to the soldier.

So.....

no.

A more apt comparison would be a JP Enterprises 308 match rifle vs that thing. Or a Lee-Enfield vs the G3.
If you must have a more even comparison, bolt action match rifles still account for the overwhelming majority of NRA HP Rifle championships (where bolt action and semi auto shooters are on an even playing field) despite the fact that AR-15 based match rifles have been around for over 20 years and high BC 6 mm cartridges for the AR-16 platform have been around for at least a decade if not longer.

Crews

01-11-2015, 07:54 PM

I run everything suppressed so adjustable gas is a necessity for me, this system is as easy as it gets to go from suppressed to unsuppressed in seconds

Please excuse my ignorance on the subject, but is it possible to cycle subsonic ammo with a suppressor and the right gas setting on your gun?

CanineCombatives

01-11-2015, 10:22 PM

Sure, just a matter of finding the correct gas setting, but what your essentially talking about
is the 300blk cartridge in terms of ballistics so you would be much better served by going that route.