The Army Wants a New Pistol

[Chance]

From Military.com (http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/07/03/army-wants-a-harder-hitting-pistol.html?comp=1198882887570&rank=1):


The U.S. Army is moving forward to replace the Cold War-era M9 9mm pistol with a more powerful handgun that also meets the needs of the other services.

I wonder how much this will cost before ultimately resulting in nothing.

[TR675]

Nice to see Ernest Langdon quoted in the article. He makes a lot of sense, as expected.

It's also good to see that the Army looking into harder hitting replacements for 9mm, like the .357 sig. I bet the terminal ballistics of .357 sig ball ammo beat the pants off of regular ol' 9mm.

[PPGMD]

Find the General that is pushing this give him his DSM, and tell him to stop wasting the Army's money. Spend it on things the Army needs more like ammo for training.

[RevolverRob]

Wow, I really like reading between the lines on that one:


"It's a total system replacement -- new gun, new ammo, new holster, everything," Easlick said.

Translation: We want to waste taxpayer money and business's time to seek quotes for something we are not going to do.


"The 9mm doesn't score high with soldier feedback," said Easlick, explaining that the Army, and the other services, want a round that will have better terminal effects -- or cause more damage -- when it hits enemy combatants. "We have to do better than our current 9mm

Translation: Soldiers who have actually shot people prefer rifles to handguns and the rest have no idea what is effective. We have to do better than our current 9mm - Translation: We know 9mm NATO Ball sucks, but we can't convince the brass to give us real ammo.


"As part of the joint requirement process for MHS, Army weapons officials did a "very thorough cost-benefit analysis" that showed supported the effort, Easlick said.

Translation: We finally found an auditor that agreed with us, after we took them out for drinks and prostitutes.


"We have got an old fleet of M9s right now; it's costing us more to replace and repair M9s than it would cost to go get a new handgun," he said.

Translation: I have absolutely no idea what it's costing us to replace and repair M9s.


"The M9 doesn't meet it for a multitude of reasons," Easlick said. "It's got reliability issues; the open slide design allows contaminates in. The slide-mounted safety doesn't do well when you are trying to clear a stoppage -- you inadvertently de-cock and safe the weapon system."

Translation: I have never once been in the field, carried an M9, or talked to anyone that had anything positive to say about the gun and we need better weapons training.

I liked this gem from Beretta:
"We have submitted numerous changes or product improvements that really address a lot of the shortcomings that are either perceived or real," said Gabe Bailey, Business development manager for Beretta's military division.

Translation: They won't tell us what they want changed, these guys are crazy.

Also, if I were Beretta management, I'd fire Gabe. Because seriously dude, you don't imply that your customer is crazy when you make statements. You smile and tell them whatever they want is fine, even if it is insane.

-Rob

[Chuck Whitlock]

Doesn't our agreement with NATO require that we use 9mm? Which is why it was chosen in the 1st place.

Or, we could just drop that Hague Accord thing against HP ammo. I still can't wrap my mind around the idea that hollow points are inhumane, but hand grenades are GTG.

[JHC]

Find the General that is pushing this give him his DSM, and tell him to stop wasting the Army's money. Spend it on things the Army needs more like ammo for training.

+1

Kudos to the author to seek out someone like EL for sensible quotes. I am stunned by the monumental stupidity to even consider more powerful rounds given the dearth of actual pistol training. SOCOM pistol shooters largely already have different pistols. Basing a more powerful caliber on broad based troop survey results wrapped up in knockdown power fantasies is unbelievable.

[PPGMD]

Also, if I were Beretta management, I'd fire Gabe. Because seriously dude, you don't imply that your customer is crazy when you make statements. You smile and tell them whatever they want is fine, even if it is insane.

I like Gabe, he is simply telling the truth.

[GardoneVT]

From Military.com (http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/07/03/army-wants-a-harder-hitting-pistol.html?comp=1198882887570&rank=1):

.

Why? For the most part, the DoD troops can't hit with the pistols they have. 100 rounds a year, unless the "Sexual Harassment" Breifing conflicts with the range schedule? Puhleeeze.

[ranger]

These "new pistol", "new rifle", "new caliber" articles pop all the time on Military.com. I will believe it when I see it. We are reducing the force and laying off NCOs and Officers because of budget cuts so we will start another expensive trial? What about the results of the multiple other trials already on the shelf?

The US military only has a few thousand warriors at the point of the spear at any one time - give them the absolute best equipment possible. The M4s, SAWs, M240Bs, and M9s will be fine for the rest of us who are not in contact.

[JHC]

. I bet the terminal ballistics of .357 sig ball ammo beat the pants off of regular ol' 9mm.

Probably not enough to matter. Possibly not enough to even measure.

[GardoneVT]

Probably not enough to matter. Possibly not enough to even measure.

What's the terminal ballistics of a. 357 Sig compared to a 9mm when it misses the target?

Because that's exactly what will happen even if the military did switch to that round. 100 rounds every year, with 39/50 being a 'passing' score is so sad most state CCW permit standards beat that and then some. I still remember getting emails about weekly NDs with the issue M9. That really says it all, in my non SME opinion.

[TR675]

Probably not enough to matter. Possibly not enough to even measure.

I know - we need a sarcasm emoticon.

It doesn't help that I was being serious first (praising Ernest) and sarcastic second (.357 is better) in the same tone, in the same post.

[JHC]

I know - we need a sarcasm emoticon.

It doesn't help that I was being serious first (praising Ernest) and sarcastic second (.357 is better) in the same tone, in the same post.

OH YOU TOTALLY TROLLED ME!!! :D

I was all like TR675 CANNOT be saying this!!! LOL

[archangel]

If this is anything like the camouflage improvement program, they will spend the next 7 years and who-knows-how-much money researching all the latest and greatest options, then decide to go with a SIG 226 clone made by Natick.

[TAZ]

Sounds like someone needs a reelection boost by bringing some pork home. Guess it's easier to make points by claiming X # of new jobs and $$ to your district than to actually do something to help soldiers better prepare for combat.

[Matt Helm]

Doesn't our agreement with NATO require that we use 9mm? Which is why it was chosen in the 1st place.

Or, we could just drop that Hague Accord thing against HP ammo. I still can't wrap my mind around the idea that hollow points are inhumane, but hand grenades are GTG.
★★★★★ No words are more true ....on this subject.

[TORCH2J]

Actually, they're looking for a COTS replacement.

[jetfire]

Or, we could just drop that Hague Accord thing against HP ammo. I still can't wrap my mind around the idea that hollow points are inhumane, but hand grenades are GTG.

I snorted my coffee with that one, well played.

On the topic itself, there's nothing a peace-time military (which we'll be soon) loves more than buying new guns.

[John Hearne]

Realistically, if you are stuck with FMJ, then most folks agree that 45ACP is probably a better choice. Folks can't shoot the current 9mm in part because the frame is huge. If they adopted a 45ACP pistol with a grip that is smaller than a Beretta, it wouldn't be an entirely bad thing.

[Tamara]

Nice to see Ernest Langdon quoted in the article. He makes a lot of sense, as expected.

Other than the direct quotes from Ernest, it was nothing but blatherskite and codswallop.

How many New! Super! Pistol! programs does this make in the last twenty years?

Oh, well, maybe it'll spin off some more FDE Taurii.

[TR675]

Other than the direct quotes from Ernest, it was nothing but blatherskite and codswallop.

Yup.


How many New! Super! Pistol! programs does this make in the last twenty years?

A lot.


Oh, well, maybe it'll spin off some more FDE Taurii.

Good lord I hope so!

[TR675]

OH YOU TOTALLY TROLLED ME!!! :D

I was all like TR675 CANNOT be saying this!!! LOL

See, the problem with me is it's sometimes hard even for me to tell when I'm being stupid on purpose because I think I'm being funny, when I'm being stupid because I don't want to be bothered to think about something, and when I'm being genuinely stupid.*

*apologies to Douglas Adams

[Chuck Haggard]

Realistically, if you are stuck with FMJ, then most folks agree that 45ACP is probably a better choice. Folks can't shoot the current 9mm in part because the frame is huge. If they adopted a 45ACP pistol with a grip that is smaller than a Beretta, it wouldn't be an entirely bad thing.

While I strongly concur with the M9 grip being too big for most folks, I am totally underwhelmed at the observed performance of .45 FMJ ammo on human beings.



The flip side to the "bigger hole" argument ref wound ballistics of the two rounds is that 9mm ball gets through more stuff more often than .45 ball does. I have done testing, and seen far more, in which stuff that military guys might be wearing, like loaded mag pouches, chest rigs, canteens, steel pot helmets, etc., gets shot. Items that routinely stop a .45 get perforated by 9mm NATO. I would humbly submitted that any hole in your bad guys is better than no hole in your bad guy.

[Kyle Reese]

1911 and hardball. Our boys clobbered Kaiser Bill and Hitler with it, and sent Tojo a' packin.

While we're at it, go ahead and issue M-14's and Lucky Strikes as well.





:cool:

[hufnagel]

Wonder if HK will take the bait again. We did get the HK45 out of it the last time. :)

The JHP comment though is golden, and one I never understood. It always felt like an attempt to make war "civilized" again; if so let's go back to all wearing bright (red) colored uniforms and standing in neat, orderly lines firing at each other.

[GJM]

When I read how unreliable the M9 was, it undermined all credibility in my book. At the Wilson/Langdon class, we had 19 different 92 pistols, of widely different vintage and condition, put 11,000 rounds down range over a weekend without a single stoppage.

Dovetailed sights, G lever, and a railed Vertec or M9A1 lower would seem to solve 99% of what they want.

[5pins]

Realistically, if you are stuck with FMJ, then most folks agree that 45ACP is probably a better choice. Folks can't shoot the current 9mm in part because the frame is huge. If they adopted a 45ACP pistol with a grip that is smaller than a Beretta, it wouldn't be an entirely bad thing.

Hay maybe they could get something like a 1911. ;)

[Suvorov]

My head literally hurts after reading some of the comments. I would like there to be a test one would take that would assign a score to a user before they make gun comments. Two paragraphs of Langdon quotes and still half the comments essentially say they all fall to ball. I really wonder just how many of the M9 haters can even qual expert with it?

[Chuck Haggard]

I recall the old Army pistol qual on the pop-up range maxing out at 40 hits on 40 targets (full size E silhouettes at that, a hit anywhere counted), but we were given 50 rounds in which to get those 40 hits. Retardery it was.

[JDB]

When I read how unreliable the M9 was, it undermined all credibility in my book. At the Wilson/Langdon class, we had 19 different 92 pistols, of widely different vintage and condition, put 11,000 rounds down range over a weekend without a single stoppage.

Dovetailed sights, G lever, and a railed Vertec or M9A1 lower would seem to solve 99% of what they want.

Yeah, but you have to understand their frame of reference RE reliability.
Most soldiers that have shot/carried an M9 in the desert has done so with crappy mags, no lube, worn springs and fine sand. That's all they know.
The idea that the Beretta can be fantastically reliable is totally at odds with their experience. It baffles my fellow soldiers that I like the M9 (and that mine runs).

[Suvorov]

The idea that the Beretta can be fantastically reliable is totally at odds with their experience. It baffles my fellow soldiers that I like the M9 (and that mine runs).

And yet somehow I think the cost of new springs, more new magazines, and some good training would be less than replacing an entire weapon system......

[GJM]

Yeah, but you have to understand their frame of reference RE reliability.
Most soldiers that have shot/carried an M9 in the desert has done so with crappy mags, no lube, worn springs and fine sand. That's all they know.
The idea that the Beretta can be fantastically reliable is totally at odds with their experience. It baffles my fellow soldiers that I like the M9 (and that mine runs).

If they or the military wants to maintain their pistols like a lawn mower, it sure is hard to beat something like a current manufacture Gen 4 Glock 17.

[pablo]

Yeah, but you have to understand their frame of reference RE reliability.
Most soldiers that have shot/carried an M9 in the desert has done so with crappy mags, no lube, worn springs and fine sand. That's all they know.
The idea that the Beretta can be fantastically reliable is totally at odds with their experience. It baffles my fellow soldiers that I like the M9 (and that mine runs).

Not to mention a lot of M9's are older than the troops carrying them. A lot of those pistol have outlived their useful service life.

I guess looking for a new pistol is more acceptable waste of resources than looking for yet another camo pattern.

[Trooper224]

Yeah, but you have to understand their frame of reference RE reliability.
Most soldiers that have shot/carried an M9 in the desert has done so with crappy mags, no lube, worn springs and fine sand. That's all they know.
The idea that the Beretta can be fantastically reliable is totally at odds with their experience. It baffles my fellow soldiers that I like the M9 (and that mine runs).

Back in my day the same things were being said about the 1911 for pretty much the same reasons. If you want you're weapons system completely farbed up give it to the Big Machine, nobody does it better. The military doesn't need a new weapons system, but it could really use a class on collective cranial removal from rectal orifices.

[Chuck Whitlock]

The military doesn't need a new weapons system, but it could really use a class on collective cranial removal from rectal orifices.

They would then have to add blood stripes to their dress uniforms.

[JDB]

Maintenance is a completely foreign concept. We clean guns (to death), but there is no maintenance done at the unit level, nor any idea of what that would entail.
Occasionally a guy will come around with his gauges and inspect each weapon and he decides if any springs or small parts need replaced. (yearly?) But Joe has no idea about any of that. I'm not super confident about that guys charged with performing maintenance either. Used up springs seem to stay in guns.

Oh, and there is no replacement of springs or magazines that I'm aware of. Magazines generally just get thrown back in a box at random. Total crapshoot. We do get new magazines occasionally...and they get thrown in with the rest of the mystery magazines.

From the landmower perspective, a Glock 17 would make a lot of sense. Pistol mags made by HK probably would too.

[nycnoob]

I was at a class with Langdon and Todd, they explained that a big issue with the army pistols is how maintenance is performed.

A large batch of pistols comes back for maintenance and they are disassembled and all the pieces are cleaned inspected at once (all the barrels, all the extractors etc) so
when pistols are reassembled they have a mix of new and heavily used parts.

They said that when soldiers buy their own gun and maintain it themselves they find " quality much improved"

[TGS]

Back in my day the same things were being said about the 1911 for pretty much the same reasons. If you want you're weapons system completely farbed up give it to the Big Machine, nobody does it better. The military doesn't need a new weapons system, but it could really use a class on collective cranial removal from rectal orifices.

This.

The military doesn't need a new pistol.

What the military needs is a maintenance program more extensive than taking bad mags and throwing them into a box, and taking out a different mag from the same box to give to the troop.

The first time I actually saw that, I didn't really know what to say.

[Tamara]

If they or the military wants to maintain their pistols like a lawn mower...

I See What You Did There.

[Chance]

Translation: We finally found an auditor that agreed with us, after we took them out for drinks and prostitutes.


Made my morning. Thank you.

[MGW]

I recall the old Army pistol qual on the pop-up range maxing out at 40 hits on 40 targets (full size E silhouettes at that, a hit anywhere counted), but we were given 50 rounds in which to get those 40 hits. Retardery it was.

That's still the standard. The first time I ever picked up an M9 I shot 39 out if 40. And no one told me I had extra rounds if I missed one. I'm bragging about how good of a shot I am either because I'm not that good.

I would like to know how many Soldiers that are actually issued M9s have actually shot someone with an M9 in the last 10 years. I'm guessing the number is really really low.

And replacing a weapons platform because they are fixing broken weapons is stupid. The Army's maintenance program on rifles and pistols is substandard at best. It would take about two years for what ever pistol system they select to be in the same state as the current one.

I see this as a ploy for some dude to justify his job so he doesn't kit shit canned with all the other REMFs.

[Suvorov]

I see this as a ploy for some dude to justify his job so he doesn't kit shit canned with all the other Fobbits.

Either this or bucking for a promotion and wanting to get noticed...

[TGS]

I see this as a ploy for some dude to justify his job so he doesn't kit shit canned with all the other REMFs.


Either this or bucking for a promotion and wanting to get noticed...


Project management of this size is something anyone would want on their resume when they get out and apply to high level exec positions.

Remember, we're talking about strategic planners here. They're not concerned about the next couple years. They're setting themselves up for 10 years down the road so they can get a directors position somewhere.

[Failure2Stop]

Change the ambidextrous decocking safety lever to a decocker only and 33% of my real issues with the M9 is taken care of.
Changing every frame to the railed M9A1 hits one more of the trio.
Make the sights (more specifically; the front sight) easily replaceable at the armorer level and my substantial complaints are wrapped up.

Pushing $ in any other direction for a general forces pistol is wasted money.

[JDB]

While I don't think its the best use of money, its a long way from the worst. I'd like to see a new pistol. Not because I think the M9 is bad, just that there are better choices for us...especially given the lack proper maintenance any mass issued firearms is going to get.

A smaller frame, lighter handier gun would be nice. No panacea, but nice. Getting rid of the slide mounted decocker would be good. Less sensitivity to lube. Saving 10 ounces would be huge for me.
I'm thinking G17, G19, P30, VP9. Or a fixed M&P9 w/thumb safety.

As outrageous as the cost of the military acquisition process is, getting a new pistol would probably be chump change compared to the rest of all the stupid things we spend money on. (I tell people half of what I'm paid for in the guard is peeing in a cup, standing in formation, and online sensitivity training...not far from the truth. The other half is pretty cool though).

A new pistol isn't anywhere near as important as training and maintenance....but those are probably harder fixes than getting new hardware.

[ffhounddog]

M9A1 frame with the 92A1/90-two buffer with a Vertec G top would be great.

[Trooper224]

My oldest son served a hitch in the Navy as a Master at Arms (MP) and my youngest is currently serving on a carrier as part of it's security force. I was recently discussing such things with them both. My oldest son's first duty station was Suda Bay, on the Isle of Crete. There, he served with a dedicated MA detachment and weapons maintenance was kept up at a pretty high level. Needless to say he couldn't recall any issues ever arising regarding reliability of their weapons and they shot quite regularly. His final assignment was aboard a carrier where things were far different. Weapons were poorly maintained and no one seemed to care, so issues were common. My youngest is seeing the same thing aboard his current assignment: weapons poorly maintained, nothing ever sees a drop of lubricant. Springs? What are those. He's also shocked at how pussified and PC the military has become. He was recently told he didn't look "happy" enough while on watch and was making people uncomfortable. The ship's in dry dock right now and I told him that's all very typical when the boat comes out of the water and all the grass eaters have nothing better to do. He's seriously considering transferring to an expeditionary unit in hopes of dealing with a few less people who've had their balls sucked up into their mangina.

[Tamara]

Change the ambidextrous decocking safety lever to a decocker only and 33% of my real issues with the M9 is taken care of.

A personal weapon without a manual safety?!? Fetch the smelling salts.

[Drang]

I recall the old Army pistol qual on the pop-up range maxing out at 40 hits on 40 targets (full size E silhouettes at that, a hit anywhere counted), but we were given 50 rounds in which to get those 40 hits. Retardery it was.

I think I fired at least 4 different pistol qualification courses of fire. And, yes, I remember looking down at a leftover full mag when I was told I had qualified 100%.

And while I have little if any love for the M9, concur that the money would be better spent on developing decent pistol qualification training. The 4 hour class I took at the LGS would be better than I saw in the LSHD Army.

No kitten, there we were, at whatever the small arms range near Suwon was called, when the Range NCOIC approached the SSG Mafia smoking and joking and waiting for our turn to qualify (M16s, probably A1s at the time), and asked if "One of you high speed NCOs will help Captain Obviousky learn to shoot the .45. He's been trying and never managed to qualify." I got rejected after asking if I could demonstrate for him, there was no ammo for a mere SSG. So one of our number took pity on the good captain, and he went back an Expert. All it took was about 5 minutes of tutorial on grip, stance, and trigger control.

Several years later, in my last tour, I did see two Warrant Officers First Class clean the M9 quals at Red Star Range up near Camp Stanley.
before they went to Warrant Officer Candidate School, one had been an enlisted Airborne Ranger, and the other a SEAL.

[Drang]

...His final assignment was aboard a carrier where things were far different. Weapons were poorly maintained and no one seemed to care, so issues were common.
He should have reminded them that the last time the command "Away all boarders!" was given, it was on a flattop...

[Kyle Reese]

A personal weapon without a manual safety?!? Fetch the smelling salts.

Yet I've lost count of the NDs I've witnessed on Active Duty with the M-9. I attribute that to poor training, not the handgun.

[Sensei]

Yet I've lost count of the NDs I've witnessed on Active Duty with the M-9. I attribute that to poor training, not the handgun.

I have to wonder if it has something to do with the number of times we have to clear our weapons and the varying conditions of carry depending on the FOB. For example, I got shipped around RC-East in 2009 with CJTF Phoenix / 82nd. At BAF we carried all weapons with a mag but no chambered round (yellow), at most FOBs in Kabul it was no mag (green), in the field it was round in the chamber and weapon on safe (red). To make matters worse, we had to clear our weapons at virtually every building we entered: DFAC, gym, TMC, HQ - you name it, we pulled it out and squeezed the trigger. It was at these clearing stations on yellow FOBs where soldiers typically earned their company grade Article 15's for popping one off because they were not accustomed to removing the magazine. They simply didn't have the muscle memory to drop the mag after spending weeks at a FOB where weapons were carried green.

Granted, more pistol training will help prevent these NDs, but so would uniform policies that allow soldiers to keep their holstered weapons in a safe place - in a holster. Leaders injects unnecessary risk when we make them unholster their weapon every time they walk into a friggen building. Something tells me that LE agencies would also see their ND rates skyrocket if cops had to vary their condition of carry and unholster / clear their weapons 7 times per day.

[TCinVA]

When I read how unreliable the M9 was, it undermined all credibility in my book. At the Wilson/Langdon class, we had 19 different 92 pistols, of widely different vintage and condition, put 11,000 rounds down range over a weekend without a single stoppage.

Dovetailed sights, G lever, and a railed Vertec or M9A1 lower would seem to solve 99% of what they want.

But odds are you weren't using guns made up almost entirely of parts from other guns that were broken and poorly maintained before being broken.

Proper maintenance and proper training would solve just about every problem people cite about the M9 but fixing one's deficiencies is nowhere near as sexy as the idea of buying a new gun.

[hufnagel]

Or throws as much pork into someone's district/state. Let's not forget the money angle here.

[Mr_White]

Yet I've lost count of the NDs I've witnessed on Active Duty with the M-9. I attribute that to poor training, not the handgun.

You don't think the morally bankrupt caliber 9mm is at fault for those NDs?

:)

[Kyle Reese]

I have to wonder if it has something to do with the number of times we have to clear our weapons and the varying conditions of carry depending on the FOB. For example, I got shipped around RC-East in 2009 with CJTF Phoenix / 82nd. At BAF we carried all weapons with a mag but no chambered round (yellow), at most FOBs in Kabul it was no mag (green), in the field it was round in the chamber and weapon on safe (red). To make matters worse, we had to clear our weapons at virtually every building we entered: DFAC, gym, TMC, HQ - you name it, we pulled it out and squeezed the trigger. It was at these clearing stations on yellow FOBs where soldiers typically earned their company grade Article 15's for popping one off because they were not accustomed to removing the magazine. They simply didn't have the muscle memory to drop the mag after spending weeks at a FOB where weapons were carried green.

Granted, more pistol training will help prevent these NDs, but so would uniform policies that allow soldiers to keep their holstered weapons in a safe place - in a holster. Leaders injects unnecessary risk when we make them unholster their weapon every time they walk into a friggen building. Something tells me that LE agencies would also see their ND rates skyrocket if cops had to vary their condition of carry and unholster / clear their weapons 7 times per day.

Agreed & 100% spot on. IMHO, there's no reason to not be in red when in Afghanistan, considering how the ANA/ANP seem to be prone to cases of instant jihad. Bad kitten can happen on Phoenix & Kabul just as easily as in the most remote COP/COB on the Pakistan border.


You don't think the morally bankrupt caliber 9mm is at fault for those NDs?

:)

No one had NDs when they carried the 1911, right? ;)

[Lester Polfus]

I spent six years on active duty in the Coast Guard. Very few Coasties deal with small arms, and most of them don't know much about them. Those of us who did carry them on a regular basis knew what we were doing. There was some chickensh%t because of various regulations and procurment rules, but while guns were expected to be cleaned, they were also expected to be lubricated so they would run. If pistol experienced malfuncitons at the range, the mag was marked with masking tape on the base pad to see if that was the issue, and if it was, we were allowed to cull and replace magazines. One of our chiefs did get a stern talking to for buying some mec-gar mags with a Government purchase card.

I jointed the Army National Guard and had a very different experience. Everybody had a rifle issued to them, but knew very little about them, but because they were in the Army, thought they knew all there was to know. It was then that I coined the term "rapture of the shallows."

I was issued a brand new, FN-made M16A2 that was manufactured to a very high standard, and some high quality 5.56mm ammo. I was somehow expected to make this run with no lube, and magazines with visibly deformed feed lips from being dropped on the floor of a Huey during a hot extract in South Vietnam. I once made an off hand comment that I lubed my personal AR-15 with lithium wheel bearing grease, and a 1st SGT told me "if I catch you doing that, I'll have your balls for earrings."

My ability to actually hit something with the double action first shot from an M9 made me an instant legend. I was made to repeat the feat multiple times, to make sure it wasn't a fluke...

[David Armstrong]

Realistically, if you are stuck with FMJ, then most folks agree that 45ACP is probably a better choice. Folks can't shoot the current 9mm in part because the frame is huge. If they adopted a 45ACP pistol with a grip that is smaller than a Beretta, it wouldn't be an entirely bad thing.
If they adopted a Glock or some other modern polymer-framed 9mm that wouldn't be a bad thing either. I've never seen any real difference in effect between 9mm ball and .45 ACP ball except the 9mm tended to get through assorted barriers better.

[Drang]

It occurs to me that if the Army can designate Master Drivers and Master Fitness Trainers then it should be the easiest thing in the world to designate master trainers for rifles and pistols.
Maybe it's just a Combat Support thing (I was an MI geek, also spent time in Aviation units) but ranges usually rotate between companies. (I once got "voluntold" to run an M60/M256 range, when the company had no machine guns. At all.)

While there's usually a "Primary Marksmanship Instruction" at the individual company beforehand, it's usually run by the armorer, who usually doesn't know much beyond how to make sure Schmedlap's weapon is clean before it gets turned in and how to fill out the paperwork.
This is how stupid the unit-level bureaucracy that handles this gets: My last tour, senior enlisted MI geek in 2/2 Aviation Battalion's Electronic Warfare Platoon, I get tagged to be RSO at an aerial gunnery range. I know jack about aerial gunnery beyond it looks cool in movies, my EH60s have no door guns, because the friggin' jammers and DF gear take up too much room. But it's my turn...

I got de-selected when I went to the first meeting at the S3 for "How we're going to do this" by 1) Protesting my lack of any qualifications whatsoever (pissing off the S3), and 2) Asking what were apparently dumb questions. (Pissing off the former SEAL referenced above who was the OIC of the range.) (They had IR laser "aiming devices" in 2000! Who knew?!)

/war story

[Mr_White]

No one had NDs when they carried the 1911, right? ;)

I wouldn't know, but this is starting to add up.

Military uses 1911s, no NDs. Switch to Beretta M9 in the 80s, NDs galore.

Cops use DA revolvers, no NDs. Switch to wondernines in the 80s, NDs galore.

This has officially gone from a hypothesis to a theory. Call the newspaper. 9mm is clearly at fault. Or switching guns during the 80s may not be a good idea either.

[MGW]

It occurs to me that if the Army can designate Master Drivers and Master Fitness Trainers then it should be the easiest thing in the world to designate master trainers for rifles and pistols.



In my experience being a master anything in the Army now just means you get to do all the paperwork.

There are so many required briefs, online "training", suicide prevention training, inspections of documentation of training, blah, blah, blah that very little training actually gets done due to lack of time. There is a CYA for everything and very actual accountability for the people that make stupid decisions. Rant over.

I actually like the M9. I would be okay with them switching to a polymer pistol though. But the pessimist in me expects it to be something from the XD line with the addition of an extra external safety and a a 30 pound trigger.

[Sensei]

Agreed & 100% spot on. IMHO, there's no reason to not be in red when in Afghanistan, considering how the ANA/ANP seem to be prone to cases of instant jihad. Bad kitten can happen on Phoenix & Kabul just as easily as in the most remote COP/COB on the Pakistan border.


For several days I carried my M9 in condition red around Phoenix and Eggers in a RCS Phantom under my ACU top. I never cleared it or let anyone know that it was on my 4 o'clock. Nobody ever asked me about my weapon until one day the bean counter at the DFAC desk told me that I had to show him my weapon (that was suppose to be green) to be allowed entry - oops. Knowing the ruckus that would be caused if I pulled out a hot weapon from under my shirt in the DFAC, I told him that it was back in the TMC armory. Needless to say, he looked a little surprised when I came back around the corner 15 seconds later with an unloaded M9...

From that day on I had to carry my unloaded M4 to the DFAC so that the little a-hole would be satisfied that I had a weapon.

[Odin Bravo One]

If it keeps the bean counters and REMF's busy, then I am for it.

How it impacts the end state? Who gives a shit? Those who need to be able to shoot a pistol, whether real or perceived, will find a way to become proficient. Those who don't see the need, will not.

I'd rather they go looking for a rainbow unicorn than fuck with me and my guys about GI Jane, and her integration into the post-war military.

[JAD]

. 9mm is clearly at fault.

No duh. Stuff just goes off by itself. I figured that's why you're so fast.

[Failure2Stop]

If it keeps the bean counters and REMF's busy, then I am for it.

How it impacts the end state? Who gives a shit? Those who need to be able to shoot a pistol, whether real or perceived, will find a way to become proficient. Those who don't see the need, will not.

I'd rather they go looking for a rainbow unicorn than fuck with me and my guys about GI Jane, and her integration into the post-war military.
/thread

[Chemsoldier]

It occurs to me that if the Army can designate Master Drivers and Master Fitness Trainers then it should be the easiest thing in the world to designate master trainers for rifles and pistols.


Believe it or not, this sort of exists in the small arms Master Gunner programs started in some of the infantry divisions like the 82nd. It is poorly resourced and not really utilized properly. Additionally, the Army is obsessed with the 40 hour course. If you cant learn it in40 hours it is apparently not worth doing. So a master driver is just a guy who has been to a driver's instructor course that I believe is only 40 hours long. Real deep domain knowledge there...

Ultimately the Army would need to make structural changes to how it processes unit and individual readiness information for units to take ANY form of individual training seriously (expect PT, the cult it strong enough that it is pushed even if crudely). For instance, it is an unwritten rule that officers do not wear marksmanship awards (to my knowledge it isnt verboten, just not done. If the Chief of Staff dictated that officers would not only wear marksmanship badges but wear them in DA photos (used in promotion boards) it would be a step in the right direction (a small one I grant). Also requiring a unit to report average qual score across the unit in the monthly Unit Status Report might be a step. It would elevate marksmanship performance to something a commander could care about and see a payoff in improving. Of course, they will kitten it up. Officer will simply pencil whip their scores, units will simply shoot endless quals to get their scores up rather than actually train, kind of like taking a kid who fails a math test and simply giving him endless tests till he passes rather than teaching him.

Bottom Line: Collective training makes units win on the battle field, and making an individual skill (except PT) important to units and leadership will be an uphill fight.

[Chemsoldier]

A personal weapon without a manual safety?!? Fetch the smelling salts.

I had someone at work get a case of the vapors at the idea of no safety on an Army handgun. They looked at me like I had a protuberance growing from my forehead when I mentioned that we already had the M11. The what? Thousands of them in the inventory and they had no idea...the person was a field grade officer. *sigh*

[Sensei]

I had someone at work get a case of the vapors at the idea of no safety on an Army handgun. They looked at me like I had a protuberance growing from my forehead when I mentioned that we already had the M11. The what? Thousands of them in the inventory and they had no idea...the person was a field grade officer. *sigh*

You bring up a good point that the Army should have overcome a bit of the negative inertia with the M11 when it comes to adopting a service pistol that lacks a safety. Heck, the P226 made a helluva run in 1986 as a runner-up. In defense of your field grade, not many folks outside of aviation, MI, and CID get to enjoy the finer side of what the Army has to offer.

[JRB]

I will never forget watching a fullbird ND 3 consecutive rounds from his M9 into the clearing barrel outside of a Ft Knox DFAC.

He left the mag in, racked it and cycled a round out, muzzle went halfkitten into the clearing barrel - *BANG*
Quizzical look, confusion, rack the slide again, another unfired round hits the ground, muzzle back into the barrel - *BANG*
More confusion from the Colonel, and his entourage starts looking really concerned, he mutters something rather heated, because of the distance and tinnitus, I only hear rabble rabble 'fortyfive' mutter mutter
Colonel drops the mag, looks around, into the clearing barrel again, live round still in the chamber - *BANG*

I started walking that way, mostly curious to see if the clearing barrel actually worked, only to get headed off by a CSM that calmly explained to me that the Colonel's weapon malfunctioned, and there was no need to be alarmed.

Somehow I have a feeling that guy is a General now, and would love to see the M9 replaced.


As a PFC years ago, I was working at an ammo point during a range qual, and surprised and wowed NCO's around me when I showed them how to use the spoons to directly load M16 mags from the strippers - everyone there had only ever pulled them off one at a time.
At the end of it all, as usual for an Army range session, we had to 'use' all of the remaining ammo that was unsealed. I asked if I could shoot the commander's M9 to help 'get rid' of some of that 9mm. They thought they'd trick me by running it as an official qual, I shot 39/40, and I was baffled at the extra ammo. It was inexcusably easy.
My commander had shot 26/40 earlier in the day, firing all 50 rounds of ammo.

No matter how many times I've tried to explain it to my folks, or other laymen - meeting genuine 'gun people' in the Army is a rare, rare event these days.

[Suvorov]

What amazes me is how many of you had the same experiences as I did. This whole thread reminds me why I decided to cut my military career 8 years short. SeanM's post just makes it all the more clear. To bad I jumped out of the pan and into the fire - but that is a whole other subject.

[JHC]

For several days I carried my M9 in condition red around Phoenix and Eggers in a RCS Phantom under my ACU top. I never cleared it or let anyone know that it was on my 4 o'clock. Nobody ever asked me about my weapon until one day the bean counter at the DFAC desk told me that I had to show him my weapon (that was suppose to be green) to be allowed entry - oops. Knowing the ruckus that would be caused if I pulled out a hot weapon from under my shirt in the DFAC, I told him that it was back in the TMC armory. Needless to say, he looked a little surprised when I came back around the corner 15 seconds later with an unloaded M9...

From that day on I had to carry my unloaded M4 to the DFAC so that the little a-hole would be satisfied that I had a weapon.

Pretty righteous story of working their safety rules! Discretion precludes my launching a range of follow up questions; but I appreciate the anecdote. Gives me hope.

[Tamara]

You bring up a good point that the Army should have overcome a bit of the negative inertia with the M11 when it comes to adopting a service pistol that lacks a safety.

A not insignificant number of people would say that of course it has a safety! Right there on the grip! (And would flip if you suggested removing the decocker and going to a DAO/DAK because "removing the safety!")

Putting a salad suit on Cletus doesn't change his fundamental nature. :)

[trailrunner]

Right now this is at MCoE, so it's a ways away from becoming a formal program of record. The CG is rotating out this month, but he is going to the office that writes requirements, so who knows who is really pushing this.

The article said they did an AoA or a CNA (essentially a cost-benefit study), which concluded that it would be cheaper to replace all the guns rather than trying to maintain them. I've seen dozens of these types of studies, and this conclusion is typical for maintenance-intensive or high-tech legacy systems, such as 1960s era vehicles and aircraft, or systems that can be outdated quickly, such as EW or targeting systems, but this conclusion is really hard to believe for something like a pistol. However, any competent DoD agency can do a seemingly rigorous study and come up with any answer they want. Usually the 1LT running the study knows the answer that the MGen wants ahead of time. Adding to this - Almost all of the information that will be presented at industry day they (and folks like us) already know, but the information presented there can be cherry-picked to justify the path forward, whatever it is.

Having said this, I don't know what the real motivation for this is, but my hunch (just a hunch, nothing more) is that they want to get away from the old-school all-metal guns and go to the modern polymer framed guns. When they chose the M9, polymer pistols were in their infancy, but they have been around long enough to have proven their worth. One interesting twist would be if they would adapt a striker-fired gun, or if they would want to stick to DA/SA. The article mentions the decocker on the M9 causing problems; I don't know if this is true or not, but this could be setting the stage to go to a striker-fired gun. However, the military will still want a safety.

As far as the caliber goes - as everyone here knows, semi-auto FMJ pistol rounds are only so good, so there's only so much that can be gained. Like the 223, the 9mm is a little wimpy but allows more rounds in the mag and more ammo to be carried, and that was part of the reason it was chosen (at least officially). The M9 was chosen right around the time 10mm came out, but since then several other rounds with more power have come out. However, I have a hard time believing stopping power is the real motivator behind this, at least for big army, because I think the number of combatants engaged with pistols has to be very small. Sure, they'll come up with a case where somebody shot an insurgent nine times with 9mm and he kept coming. Commonality with NATO is nice, but it isn't that big of a deal. The M9 was chosen during the cold war when we'd be fighting alongside our NATO allies in Europe, but the world has changed since then. However, ammo cost could be a big deal and should have been factored into the study and may wind up being the deciding factor.

[Sensei]

Pretty righteous story of working their safety rules! Discretion precludes my launching a range of follow up questions; but I appreciate the anecdote. Gives me hope.

Actually, my weapon was not just condition red, it was condition nuclear; I had the safety off and a round chambered...:cool:


Afghanistan FOBs were a fairly dangerous place on post because of the McCrystal / Petraeus policy of allowing local Haji's on post to work as janitors, builders, etc. These guys were just as dangerous as the ANA/ANP soldiers who tended to spontaneously erupt in jihad whenever they saw a female wear a PT uniform.

[ranger]

Good post trailrunner. I was at a recent Maneuver Conference at Ft Benning (home of the Maneuver Center of Excellence aka Infantry School and now Armor/Cav School) and I must admit the vendor exhibits were outstanding with booths from Glock, SIG, S&W, and other pistol vendors and every derivative of a M4forgery imaginable. Also multiple optics vendors. Several of the pistol vendors there were banking on another pistol selection board.

My complete SWAG is S&W M&P Fullsize 40 or 45 with thumb safeties for the future! It is polymer, American made, has thumb safeties, and not 9mm!

However, for 99% of DOD, the Beretta M9 with proper maintenance is just fine.

[Kyle Reese]

Actually, my weapon was not just condition red, it was condition nuclear; I had the safety off and a round chambered...:cool:


Afghanistan FOBs were a fairly dangerous place on post because of the McCrystal / Petraeus policy of allowing local Haji's on post to work as janitors, builders, etc. These guys were just as dangerous as the ANA/ANP soldiers who tended to spontaneously erupt in jihad whenever they saw a female wear a PT uniform.

Carried my Glock 19 in red as well. Never asked about weapon condition or to show clear.

[MGW]

Not to beat it to death but one more comment about clearing barrels. When I was in Iraq in 2005 every major FOB required you to clear your weapon before entering any buildings. ND's galore. When I was in Afghanistan I was never asked to clear a weapon anywhere. I never heard of a single ND incident while I was there.

I also agree with the comment about non gun Army dudes. The really dangerous part about that though is most all Army dudes THINK they are gun guys. I'm surprised at the number of non gun LEOs I know too. The difference is most of them are pretty competent with their assigned firearms and don't pretend to know more than they do. I know those guys are out there but I haven't ran across many of them. They tend to treat their weapons as tools and not as "cool" stuff.

[DocGKR]

So the folks who shoot more people with handguns than anyone else in the world (U.S. LE) are going back to 9 mm in droves because of improved projectile technology allowing effective terminal performance, longer weapon system life, and greater "shootability" due to reduced recoil compared to other service calibers, yet the Army needs a "more powerful, harder hitting handgun". Because a .355" 357 Sig FMJ makes such a larger hole in tissue than a 0.355" 9 mm FMJ...

Wow. And it is not like the Army has not been told the optimal solution by numerous SME's from a variety of organizations.

[GardoneVT]

Carried my Glock 19 in red as well. Never asked about weapon condition or to show clear.

You mean you carried a loaded weapon around a warzone???!
Oh the horror..... someone think of the children.

[JHC]

Actually, my weapon was not just condition red, it was condition nuclear; I had the safety off and a round chambered...:cool:


Afghanistan FOBs were a fairly dangerous place on post because of the McCrystal / Petraeus policy of allowing local Haji's on post to work as janitors, builders, etc. These guys were just as dangerous as the ANA/ANP soldiers who tended to spontaneously erupt in jihad whenever they saw a female wear a PT uniform.

Understood. My elder son recently returned from his tour at FOB Wright. That one may be a little more battened down than some what with the nature of it's tenants but he kept the SA cranked up pretty high for that reason. OTOH he said the barbers were just superb at their trade.

[Drang]

As a PFC years ago, I was working at an ammo point during a range qual, and surprised and wowed NCO's around me when I showed them how to use the spoons to directly load M16 mags from the strippers - everyone there had only ever pulled them off one at a time.

*facepalm*

[Drang]

And it is not like the Army has not been told the optimal solution by numerous SME's from a variety of organizations.
Generals gotta have post-retirement employment.

[Chance]

Or, we could just drop that Hague Accord thing against HP ammo.

I would love to watch the US try to withdraw from the Hague Convention. I can see Democrats testifying in the Senate now....

[TR675]

I would love to watch the US try to withdraw from the Hague Convention. I can see Democrats testifying in the Senate now....

I don't know. Shouldn't be too hard since we're not a signatory.*

*Ok, ok, we're a signatory to the Hague convention of 1907 barring the use of projectiles "calculated to cause unnecessary suffering." But we're not a party to the 1899 Hague Peace Conference barring the use of expanding bullets.

[DocGKR]

TR675 is correct regarding the Hague.

[JSGlock34]

Funny, change a few words (replace M9 with M4 and Beretta with Colt) and that article could be a carbon copy of the various M4 replacement articles that have surfaced over the years. I'll give them credit for talking to Ernest though, that puts the article a notch above most of the other 'reporting' that's out there.

Are there any published reports (similar to the annual NYPD report on officer involved shootings) that documents US Army use of the M9 in combat and the performance of the 9mm round? It seems to me that the Army units most likely to employ a pistol in combat (i.e. USASOC) have moved from the M9 to the Glock 19 in recent years.

[Drang]

Believe it or not, this sort of exists in the small arms Master Gunner programs started in some of the infantry divisions like the 82nd. It is poorly resourced and not really utilized properly.
Maybe the Army shuld look at copying the Marines, and opening up Warrant Officer slots to combat arms. (I addressed a Marine Warrant as "Gunner" once, and he gently corrected me as to the proper usage. Possibly he was flattered. I think he was impressed that I knew that much.)

Additionally, the Army is obsessed with the 40 hour course. If you cant learn it in40 hours it is apparently not worth doing. So a master driver is just a guy who has been to a driver's instructor course that I believe is only 40 hours long. Real deep domain knowledge there...
Good ideas become doctrine become hardening of the arteries.

The fact remains that the pistol plays an insignificant role in combat these days -- but if you need it, you need it RIGHT NOW!, and you really need to knowhow to use it.

Also, Tom Kratman may be the least politically correct author in Baen's catalog. (Texans will love A State of Disobedience (http://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/0743471709/0743471709.htm?blurb&__utma=222178315.2063647939.1397681478.1403558311. 1404505475.7&__utmb=222178315.6.10.1404505475&__utmc=222178315&__utmx=-&__utmz=222178315.1397681478.1.1.utmcsr=l.facebook. com|utmccn=(referral)|utmcmd=referral|utmcct=/l.php&__utmv=-&__utmk=211004950).) His series of articles Training for War (http://www.baenebooks.com/p-2435-training-for-war.aspx) is available at that link from Baen Ebooks. I think they're on Amazon, too. Free, free, free. Little on pistol marksmanship, but some amusing anecdotes regarding demo "Factor 'P'"...

[RJ]

Maybe the Army shuld look at copying the Marines, and opening up Warrant Officer slots to combat arms. (I addressed a Marine Warrant as "Gunner" once, and he gently corrected me as to the proper usage. Possibly he was flattered. I think he was impressed that I knew that much.)

Good ideas become doctrine become hardening of the arteries.

The fact remains that the pistol plays an insignificant role in combat these days -- but if you need it, you need it RIGHT NOW!, and you really need to knowhow to use it.

Also, Tom Kratman may be the least politically correct author in Baen's catalog. (Texans will love A State of Disobedience (http://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/0743471709/0743471709.htm?blurb&__utma=222178315.2063647939.1397681478.1403558311. 1404505475.7&__utmb=222178315.6.10.1404505475&__utmc=222178315&__utmx=-&__utmz=222178315.1397681478.1.1.utmcsr=l.facebook. com|utmccn=(referral)|utmcmd=referral|utmcct=/l.php&__utmv=-&__utmk=211004950).) His series of articles Training for War (http://www.baenebooks.com/p-2435-training-for-war.aspx) is available at that link from Baen Ebooks. I think they're on Amazon, too. Free, free, free. Little on pistol marksmanship, but some amusing anecdotes regarding demo "Factor 'P'"...

I can confirm Mr. Kratman's "Training for War" is indeed on Amazon and yes it's free.

Damn interesting it is, too.

Thank you for mentioning it.

[JSGlock34]

Are there any published reports (similar to the annual NYPD report on officer involved shootings) that documents US Army use of the M9 in combat and the performance of the 9mm round?

I'm realizing the NYPD report was probably the wrong comparison to make, but I'm wondering if the Army has actually collected data to support the assertion that the 9mm round is inadequate, or are they just asking random soldiers to comment, and receiving the usual gun store lore in response?

[DocGKR]

The 9 mm cartridge is fine; the 124 gr FMJ projectile used for M882 ball is deficient...

[Suvorov]

The 9 mm cartridge is fine; the 124 gr FMJ projectile used for M882 ball is deficient...

So would it be possible for a 9mm projectile to be Huage compliant and significantly more efficient?

Would/is .40 sw or .45ACP ball REALLY any more efficient?

[RevolverRob]

Does it really matter anyways? The Hague stuff is for uniformed enemy combatants. Largely our enemies have been non-uniformed guerrilla fighters, the likes of whom we can use nice expanding ammunition on. This is a problem at the political end that is tied strictly to, "We don't want folks finding out we're shooting bad guys with expanding ammo." When it shouldn't really matter.

Or maybe we could just replace most of the handguns in service with shotguns and be done with it. Virtually the same effective range, but far more effective performance wise, 3-points of body contact and can train everyone to shoot them decently well in 40-hours.

But honestly, logic has no place in this discussion.

-Rob

[5pins]

I can confirm Mr. Kratman's "Training for War" is indeed on Amazon and yes it's free.

Damn interesting it is, too.

Thank you for mentioning it.
Yep just put it on my Kindle.

[RevolverRob]

Here we go: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/07/08/army-says-9mm-enough-pursuing-modular-handgun-system/

Manufacturers have 60-90 days to respond with up to 2 designs each.

The real innovator in this challenge should be the one that can figure out how to create a system of guns, parts, accessories that fits with the Army's moronic maintenance regime. A tough challenge, but the real secret to success, I think.

-Rob

[orionz06]

5.7

/thread

[PPGMD]

This announcement should not be construed as a Request for Proposal (RFP) or a commitment by the U.S. Government. The U.S. Government does not intend to award a contract on the basis of this Industry Day. THIS IS NOT A SOLICITATION AND DOES NOT OBLIGATE THE U.S. GOVERNMENT TO ISSUE A SOLICITATION. The U.S. Government will NOT ACCEPT proposals at this time. NOTE: The U.S. Government will not be responsible for any expenses incurred by a vendor’s decision to participate in this MHS Industry Day. All travel and other associated costs are to be assumed by the interested vendor.

Why would any of the companies bother to send anyone to these events? It will just be a waste of money on their part, being that chance that this will end up with a RFP let alone an executed contract are very very remote.

[5pins]

5.7

/thread

I wouldn’t be a bit surprised. I don’t see the Mil going back to the .45. But a 5.7? Penetrates body armor, low recoil, high capacity and looks cool.

[TCinVA]

I wouldn’t be a bit surprised. I don’t see the Mil going back to the .45. But a 5.7? Penetrates body armor, low recoil, high capacity and looks cool.

FN's weapons for that cartridge suck donkey smurf like a Tijuana smurfitute. HK's PDW is at least reliable and durable...and is at the zenith of its effectiveness when used to dump bursts of full-auto fire into the faces of terrorists at close range.


Why would any of the companies bother to send anyone to these events? It will just be a waste of money on their part, being that chance that this will end up with a RFP let alone an executed contract are very very remote.

The companies have been developing contract-friendly guns for quite some time. Guns like the M&P exist specifically in anticipation of competing for these sorts of contracts. Most companies will submit something because the potential reward is so great that it's worth taking the risk.

[DocGKR]

The Army has been instructed MULTIPLE times by various SME's and JAG personnel that expanding ammunition is not necessarily banned--it all depends on the requirements of the end-user and how those are articulated. The Army repeatedly ignores this sound advice. Consider reading: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2012armaments/Parks.pdf

[Tamara]

5.7

/thread

Issue everybody a P90! Plus a Serbu Super Shorty for breaching, trench-fighting, and looking cool. And change the issue rifle to a bullpup gas-piston weapon in 6.5 Grendel. That way every soldier will have a weapon suitable for all ranges, just like in my favorite add-on module for my favorite game, Rainbow Six: Clancy's Cash.

[RevolverRob]

I wouldn’t be a bit surprised. I don’t see the Mil going back to the .45. But a 5.7? Penetrates body armor, low recoil, high capacity and looks cool.

I easily see them going back to a .45. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug. I see the brass being pretty high on nostalgia. Afterall, how long did it take to get MIL to start issuing optics en mass to the troops? And now that we're moving to a peacetime Army, I see reversion written all over it.

5.7 would be an interesting choice, but I have to agree with TC...there needs to be a real gun to shoot it.

-Rob

[Tamara]

5.7 would be an interesting choice, but I have to agree with TC...there needs to be a real gun to shoot it.

-Rob

Convert the 1911 to shoot 5.7. Then you'd have the best of both worlds. Especially if you made it a polymer-framed double-stack with an LDA trigger.

[JRB]

Issue everybody a P90! Plus a Serbu Super Shorty for breaching, trench-fighting, and looking cool. And change the issue rifle to a bullpup gas-piston weapon in 6.5 Grendel. That way every soldier will have a weapon suitable for all ranges, just like in my favorite add-on module for my favorite game, Rainbow Six: Clancy's Cash.


Convert the 1911 to shoot 5.7. Then you'd have the best of both worlds. Especially if you made it a polymer-framed double-stack with an LDA trigger.

But wouldn't all of that take away from the money needed to give every troop an Accuracy International AW/M in .338 Lapua, complete with the 16x scope that uses Tom Clancy Space-Magic(tm) to ensure that POA=POI out to 3500 meters regardless of weather, atmosphere, or trajectory?

War is hell! The brass never seem to know what the Soldiers need, and they never listen to us when we tell them! Wanna go to the smoke pit? I'll grab another Mountain Dew on the way.

[NickA]

Convert the 1911 to shoot 5.7.

I caution you that this could cause a singularity and unleash dark forces beyond our comprehension.

[TORCH2J]

The interesting part of the MHS CPD is that a couple of Dr. Gary Roberts' studies are being used as references.

[TCinVA]

The interesting part of the MHS CPD is that a couple of Dr. Gary Roberts' studies are being used as references.

Not bad for a "dentist", eh? ;)

[Tamara]

I caution you that this could cause a singularity and unleash dark forces beyond our comprehension.

Neck it up for more knockdown power. Call the new cartridge 6mm Cthulhu.

[TCinVA]

Neck it up for more knockdown power. Call the new cartridge 6mm Cthulhu.

I now want a Cthulu marked AR-15 lower complete with "You will be eaten first, and all of mankind will follow after."

[orionz06]

Convert the 1911 to shoot 5.7. Then you'd have the best of both worlds. Especially if you made it a polymer-framed double-stack with an LDA trigger.

I hope this idea gets some traction.

[Tamara]

I hope this idea gets some traction.

We should get Bill R. working on a prototype.

[TR675]

A commander-length double stack 1911 in 6mm Cthulhu?

2441

[Tamara]

What's sad is that I have a cartridge display board next to my desk that has both a .243 and a 5.7 round on it, and now I'm side-eyeing it and thinking "You know..."

I have successfully trolled myself, which is kinda... and I hate this word... epic, when you think about it.

[TORCH2J]

Not bad for a "dentist", eh? ;)

I LOLed when I saw his name. :o

[PPGMD]

The companies have been developing contract-friendly guns for quite some time. Guns like the M&P exist specifically in anticipation of competing for these sorts of contracts. Most companies will submit something because the potential reward is so great that it's worth taking the risk.

The problem is that eventually the companies abstain from participating as they've wizened up and realize that none of these go anywhere. Like some companies did for the last set of carbine trails.

IMO until a RFP is published these are all a waste of money because of some general and his staff have nothing better to do.

[BillB]

Either this or bucking for a promotion and wanting to get noticed...

Or he wants firearms manufacturers to buy him stuff

[Byron]

The interesting part of the MHS CPD is that a couple of Dr. Gary Roberts' studies are being used as references.
Can anyone provide a link to that doc?

(Apologies if I overlooked the link somewhere in this thread already)

[5pins]

Go back to the .45? NO way! When was the last time the Military went back to a round as general issue? Never.

Plus when you look and the data, when using ball, it’s not any better, but twice the weight and half the capacity.

.357 Sig or .40? Harsher recoil, less capacity and no real benefit.

[HCM]

I now want a Cthulu marked AR-15 lower complete with "You will be eaten first, and all of mankind will follow after."

I'm in for one.

[Totem Polar]

"Safe, Fire, Cthulhu" lower.


http://blog.sowiarnia.pl/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/so_much_win.jpeg

[Chuck Haggard]

The 5.7 might get through soft armor easily, it is a fast moving wee little ice pick of a bullet, but it sucks at getting through anything else that might be in the way. Would be a huge fail from a handgun for general issue.

[orionz06]

The 5.7 might get through soft armor easily, it is a fast moving wee little ice pick of a bullet, but it sucks at getting through anything else that might be in the way. Would be a huge fail from a handgun for general issue.

That's where 6mm Cthulhu comes in. It solves all the shortcomings of the 5.7.

[Chuck Haggard]

That's where 6mm Cthulhu comes in. It solves all the shortcomings of the 5.7.

Pretty sure anything named after Cthulhu needs to be a bit more massive than a necked up 5.7, like maybe a .50Deagle using sabots to throw a 400gr .454 AP bullet......

Just sayin

[Drang]

Neck it up for more knockdown power. Call the new cartridge 6mm Cthulhu.

No, no, no! .50AE necked down to .17.
(At one time, it was "necked down to phonograph needle", but I got tired of explaining "phonograph needle" to those damned kids who need to get off my lawn!)

[Drang]

I have successfully trolled myself, which is kinda... and I hate this word... meta, when you think about it.FIFY.


Go back to the .45? NO way! When was the last time the Military went back to a round as general issue? Never.
Went back to the .45 "Long Colt" as an interim until John Moses Browning (pbuh) perfected God's Caliber.

The 5.7 might get through soft armor easily, it is a fast moving wee little ice pick of a bullet, but it sucks at getting through anything else that might be in the way. Would be a huge fail from a handgun for general issue.
You and your logic.

[5pins]

Went back to the .45 "Long Colt" as an interim until John Moses Browning (pbuh) perfected God's Caliber.


As a general issue Army wide change, or as a stop gap in the Philippines?

[Kyle Reese]

How about the ubiquitous, vetted and well supported Detonics MTX/STX? :o

http://bearingarms.com/army-wants-new-handgun-way-can-now/

[JHC]

That's where 6mm Cthulhu comes in. It solves all the shortcomings of the 5.7.

Could you phonetically spell that so I can pronounce it and more or less keep up? ;)

[RevolverRob]

Could you phonetically spell that so I can pronounce it and more or less keep up? ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkGqJqvWOUs

-Rob

[Tamara]

How about the ubiquitous, vetted and well supported Detonics MTX/STX? :o

http://bearingarms.com/army-wants-new-handgun-way-can-now/

Bob's a good guy, but what in Vishnu's name did I just read?

[Chuck Haggard]

No, no, no! .50AE necked down to .17.
(At one time, it was "necked down to phonograph needle", but I got tired of explaining "phonograph needle" to those damned kids who need to get off my lawn!)

This guy; http://lovecraft.wikia.com/wiki/Cthulhu
deserves a very large caliber IMHO


Cthulhu is an elder god discovered by H. P. Lovecraft, who makes his first appearance in the 1928 research article "The Call of Cthulhu". It is one of the central Great Old Ones of the Cthulhu Mythos, and is often cited for the extreme descriptions given of its hideous appearance, its gargantuan size, and the abject terror that it evokes

[Tamara]

This guy; http://lovecraft.wikia.com/wiki/Cthulhu
deserves a very large caliber IMHO

Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fthagn!

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lu61gaCuRJ1r1k1sio1_500.jpg

[TR675]

Maybe we should rethink this. For a projectile to be named FOR Cthuhu, it needs to be packed with enough hallucinogens to drive a man mad.

For a projectile to be used ON Cthulhu, ideally it needs to be a tramp steamer traveling at full ramming speed. Load out is going to be limited though.

[TORCH2J]

Bob's a good guy, but what in Vishnu's name did I just read?

Ramblings and an inability to comprehend what "modular" means.

[Tamara]

That's where 6mm Cthulhu comes in. It solves all the shortcomings of the 5.7.

It sacrifices some soft armor penetration for greater knockdown power because of momentum.

[Kyle Reese]

Ramblings and an inability to comprehend what "modular" means.

I have to give him an A for originality. I didn't know that Detonics was still in business, and their new .45 offering is......well.......uninspiring....to put it nicely. I'm sure the military is taking a hard look at this pistol, and maybe we'll see it in the holsters of our warfighters around the globe at some point.





;)

[TORCH2J]

I have to give him an A for originality. I didn't know that Detonics was still in business, and their new .45 offering is......well.......uninspiring....to put it nicely. I'm sure the military is taking a hard look at this pistol, and maybe we'll see it in the holsters of our warfighters around the globe at some point.





;)

Cause John Rourke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Survivalist) ;)

[ffhounddog]

I think they will get....wait for it.....M9A1 compacts. Yes thats right...new system fielding.

[Jeep]

The Army has been instructed MULTIPLE times by various SME's and JAG personnel that expanding ammunition is not necessarily banned--it all depends on the requirements of the end-user and how those are articulated. The Army repeatedly ignores this sound advice. Consider reading: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2012armaments/Parks.pdf

Doc: I know that some specialized units are said to use EFMJ. Might you know whether the lawyers have concluded that it doesn't violate the Hague Convention because it isn't a "hollow point" (although the Convention uses the word "expanding") or if they are exempt from the Hague restrictions because they are pursuing defined terrorists?

It seems to me that if EFMJ were re-designated as "Protective Full Metal Jacket" (to protect the people behind the target), one could argue that it is Hague compliant because the purpose to is protect civilians, and we could use that if actual hollow points are beyond the pale.

Of course, as you point out, it is unlikely that Big Green is going to do anything sensible in this regard.

[TheTrevor]

This guy; http://lovecraft.wikia.com/wiki/Cthulhu
deserves a very large caliber IMHO

Yup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustav_recoilless_rifle

[Totem Polar]

For a projectile to be used ON Cthulhu...

Correia already provided the model:

http://larrycorreia.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/abomination.jpg

[LHS]

Now I want an AR marked "Safe", "Semi" and "Ia! Ia!"

[nycnoob]

Did everyone see this article from two years ago?

Physicist Explains Cthulhu's "Non-Euclidean Geometry" (http://titaniumphysicists.brachiolopemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Rlyeh.pdf)

"Mathematician Benjamin K. Tippett has written a fascinating and deadpan paper (Pdf) giving insights into Cthulhu. A 'Bubble' of warped Space-Time makes alarmingly consistent sense of the dead God's cyclopean city under the sea. From the paper: 'We calculate the type of matter which would be required to generate such exotic spacetime curvature. Unfortunately, we determine that the required matter is quite unphysical, and possess a nature which is entirely alien to all of the experiences of human science. Indeed, any civilization with mastery over such matter would be able to construct warp drives, cloaking devices, and other exotic geometries required to conveniently travel through the cosmos.'"



The Adventures of Lil Cthulhu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOHJUrcVdJk

[Tamara]

Cause John Rourke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Survivalist) ;)

High five. :cool:

[Chuck Haggard]

Yup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustav_recoilless_rifle

No, larger;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device)

[idahojess]

deleted..posted in auto loaders thread.

[Tamara]

It's obviously going to be a Beretta PX4 in .357SIG (http://madogre.com/?p=5434).

[jetfire]

It's obviously going to be a Beretta PX4 in .357SIG (http://madogre.com/?p=5434).

I feel dirty now because I like my Storms.

[JHC]

I feel dirty now because I like my Storms.

Why not a Storm eh?

Heads would explode.

[Tamara]

In .45GAP!

[MVS]

In .45GAP!

Well at least that would provide life for the round.

[Tamara]

I wonder how many rounds of 6mm Cthulhu you could squeeze into a PX4?

[orionz06]

I wonder how many rounds of 6mm Cthulhu you could squeeze into a PX4?

21 based on the mag size of the PX4 and the SAAMI specs for that round. I think it might have to be 19 rounds though given how 6mm Cthulhu needs a little more ass to feed reliably.

[Jeep]

21 based on the mag size of the PX4 and the SAAMI specs for that round. I think it might have to be 19 rounds though given how 6mm Cthulhu needs a little more ass to feed reliably.

How do the terminal ballistics of the 6mm Cthulhu compare to those from a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range?

[Tamara]

It's hard to directly compare kinetic weapons with directed energy ones.

[Jeep]

It's hard to directly compare kinetic weapons with directed energy ones.


Very good point, and I suppose both are designed to turn the target into a smoldering heap of ashes. So maybe the better question is which one tends to eliminate more bystanders and nearby structures?

[Tamara]

Okay, which one of you guys wrote this (http://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/07/03/u-s-army-rejects-9mm/#comment-1475932422)? It's gotta be a troll.

[NETim]

Oh Boy! Caliber Wars! v358467.0