PDA

View Full Version : Caleb reviews the Sig P250



jetfire
07-06-2011, 02:54 PM
Yesterday I bought one of these with my own cash money. Infer from that what you will. ;)

78

I do have an actual serious review of the Sig P250 at Gun Nuts (http://gunnuts.net/2011/07/06/sig-sauer-p250-5000-rounds-later). My thoughts on the Sig are complicated to say the least - there is some stuff about the gun that I really like that I think Sig did an excellent job on, but there is other stuff like the sights and how the trigger works that just makes me go "huh"?

I guess the bottom line is that if Sig really wanted into the polymer game, they should have just made a polymer framed P226 and P229.

jslaker
07-06-2011, 03:22 PM
I guess the bottom line is that if Sig really wanted into the polymer game, they should have just made a polymer framed P226 and P229.

I've always heard great things about the Sig Pro line, though I don't have any direct experience with them.

Hasn't FAMS already dumped the P250?

jetfire
07-06-2011, 03:32 PM
All I have on that is hearsay, so I won't comment because it would just contribute to unsourced rumors.

LittleLebowski
07-06-2011, 04:01 PM
Last I heard, the FAMs were happily back to the P229s. Don't blame them, either.

BTW, this is sourced info from a guy Todd and I know.

TAP
07-06-2011, 04:13 PM
Hasn't FAMS already dumped the P250?

Yes. I know several guys in my local office that are very happy they aren't forced to carry the 250s.

jetfire
07-06-2011, 04:19 PM
From a text message conversation about the rear sight and trigger on the P250:

Other guy: "This is what happens when you let people who aren't shooters design guns."
Me: "Well, that and everything about the XD."

WDW
07-06-2011, 05:11 PM
My LGS has P250 9's/.40's for $299. I'm thinking about picking up one just for the hell of it as a truck/opossum shooting gun.

Kyle Reese
07-06-2011, 05:32 PM
My LGS has P250 9's/.40's for $299. I'm thinking about picking up one just for the hell of it as a truck/opossum shooting gun.

You can buy a Makarov for less and get a more reliable gun for shooting rodents.

jetfire
07-06-2011, 05:35 PM
I do have to say that I didn't really have any issues with the reliability on the P250. 2 malfs in 5100+ rounds, both of which were in the very early stages of shooting the gun. The issues I had were primarily the sights and the trigger, and were based around my desire to build the gun up for IDPA/USPSA competition. There's nothing in the $300 price range other than police-trade in Glocks that I'd recommend over the P250.

ToddG
07-06-2011, 07:48 PM
The FAM Service took all of its P250s out of service months ago.

MikeO
07-07-2011, 11:36 AM
The local rental range has a P250 in 9x19 that gets used at least several times week. They had to replace the trigger spring at about 25K rounds. All that was on the original recoil spring. No other broken parts, no complaints from shooters as to reliability.

Most common complaints I hear from other errornet sources are broken trigger springs, light strikes, slide locking open w rounds in the mag, slide lock only releases w slide stop (pull slide and it does not release). That's across models and calibers.

The recoil spring guide rod on the 45 has two legs to position it on the bbl, and one or both have broken off on local guns. Still work though, just have to be more careful when positioning the rod.

Lon
07-07-2011, 02:13 PM
The FAM Service took all of its P250s out of service months ago.

Any idea why?

NGCSUGrad09
07-07-2011, 04:39 PM
Any idea why?

As one FAM I know put it: "They did everything but blow up."

jlw
07-07-2011, 05:01 PM
From a text message conversation about the rear sight and trigger on the P250:

Other guy: "This is what happens when you let people who aren't shooters design guns."
Me: "Well, that and everything about the XD."

LOL. Nothing but win right there.

ToddG
07-07-2011, 05:05 PM
Any idea why?

Something about needing the guns to fire when the trigger was pulled or similar outrageous demands. Those crazy FAMs!

jetfire
07-07-2011, 05:21 PM
Something about needing the guns to fire when the trigger was pulled or similar outrageous demands. Those crazy FAMs!

Madness. Don't they know you don't need a gun on an airplane?

MikeO
07-07-2011, 10:44 PM
German Polizei had problems w P250s in 9x19, ATF had problems w P250s in 40, FAM had problems w P250s in 357...

Then again LAPD had problems w Glock 45s, NYPD w Glock 9s, ISP w Glock 40s, and NMSP w Glock 357s... OTOH, lottsa Glocks have and do work fine too; that's not something I hear about P250s. Maybe the Netherland's and Hong Kong's P250s will work and they will redeem themselves?

Or not. Maybe they will keep it around as their SIGMA; the price seems to be headed that way. Wonder what it would take for SIG to drop it?

Kyle Reese
07-08-2011, 02:01 AM
German Polizei had problems w P250s in 9x19, ATF had problems w P250s in 40, FAM had problems w P250s in 357...

Then again LAPD had problems w Glock 45s, NYPD w Glock 9s, ISP w Glock 40s, and NMSP w Glock 357s... OTOH, lottsa Glocks have and do work fine too; that's not something I hear about P250s. Maybe the Netherland's and Hong Kong's P250s will work and they will redeem themselves?

Or not. Maybe they will keep it around as their SIGMA; the price seems to be headed that way. Wonder what it would take for SIG to drop it?

It was my understanding that the Dutch Police bought the P250 in 9mm to replace their old Walther P5's. The most logical solution would have been to simply procure Glock 17/19 handguns (like their armed forces). We know that logic and procurement processes rarely meet in the middle.....

Korenwolf
07-08-2011, 09:00 AM
It was my understanding that the Dutch Police bought the P250 in 9mm to replace their old Walther P5's. The most logical solution would have been to simply procure Glock 17/19 handguns (like their armed forces). We know that logic and procurement processes rarely meet in the middle.....

Some background information on the procurement process of the Dutch police's new service pistol.

Pistols entered: Beretta Px4 Storm, H&K P30, Walther P99 and the Sig-Sauer P250.
Requirements: Double action only, interchangeable grip panels, no external safeties, no magazine disconnect, minimum 15 round capacity, Picatinny rail and ambidextrous controls.

Endurance requirements: maximum of 2 failures to fire for every 1,000 rounds shot, per 10,000 rounds. Also no major part breakages allowed in the first 10,000 rounds.

Contract calls for 42,000 service pistols, 1250 FX pistols and 700 cut-away instruction pistols.

When the Dutch ministry of Justice and Security announced that they had selected the Sig-Sauer P250 as the new service pistol, there were some very angry reactions. The Dutch police union was not informed of this decision, when usually they are involved in the final selection with respect to the acquisition of new gear and equipment. In addition a clear preference was voiced by the test panel for the H&K P30.

The local Dutch importer for Sig-Sauer, TBM in Arnhem, was already being investigated for corruption in a police bribery scandal, involving the procurement of tear gas canisters for the Dutch police. To illustrate the sensitivity of this service pistol competition, the Dutch police's internal investigations unit started its investigation before the competition, in order to exclude any chance of wrong doing. H&K and Walther however filed a preliminary injunction, which was not granted. Under the pressure of legislators, the whole process was again investigated, however nothing was found. The Dutch ministry of Justice and Security, did however not procure the Sig-Sauer's from the local importer, but directly from the factory. Why they would not cut out the middle man in the first place, is kind of fishy to me.

In the end those poor officers are stuck with this pistol. I do not get why the Dutch government would not have made a joint armed forces and police competition for new carbines and pistols.

jetfire
07-08-2011, 10:41 AM
It was my understanding that the Dutch Police bought the P250 in 9mm to replace their old Walther P5's. The most logical solution would have been to simply procure Glock 17/19 handguns (like their armed forces). We know that logic and procurement processes rarely meet in the middle.....

What's funny is that they're using the G17 as a "stopgap" until they field the full complement of P250s.

Kyle Reese
07-08-2011, 10:45 AM
What's funny is that they're using the G17 as a "stopgap" until they field the full complement of P250s.

Awesome. It's not like they could have bought Glock 17's and 19's for the police service, and had a reliable and perfectly serviceable sidearm for the next 20 or so years. :rolleyes:

jetfire
07-08-2011, 10:52 AM
I wish them the best of luck with their P250s and hope they find a way to shoot them faster than 0.22 splits, because I sure as hell didn't.

1986s4
07-08-2011, 10:54 AM
Anyone have an idea on how SIG is taking this widespread rejection of their newish pistol? Do they realize they have a lemon on their hands?

DonovanM
07-08-2011, 11:47 AM
Anyone have an idea on how SIG is taking this widespread rejection of their newish pistol? Do they realize they have a lemon on their hands?

With the crackhead prices they've been selling the P250's at and the reintroduction of the SIG Pro line, I think they're aware of the platform's shortcomings ;)

The SIG Pro line is by all accounts an excellent series of pistols for anyone whose hands are of a size (small-ish) to run them comfortably, myself excluded.

CK1
07-08-2011, 10:59 PM
The first time I picked up a Sig 250 I was actually pretty impressed, I had seen the video they had on their site on how they were modular and the guts could be put into different sized frames and you could caliber change while retaining literally the same exact trigger, while I thought it did seem a little top-heavy and maybe it's bore-axis should've been lower, I was happy to see how it was streamlined and devoid of nearly all the poorly placed levers and things (JMHO) common to most Sigs... at this point I should mention that the first time I handled one I was in an Acadamy Outdoors store, where they have trigger-locks on all of their guns.

The first time I dry-fired one (later, at a another LGS) I think I laughed out loud, it's almost like they tried to give it the worse trigger ever, double-action is an understatement, it's like it was designed to make it hard to hit stuff and the trigger let-off sounds scary enough where I immediately wondered if someone could set off a primer by letting the trigger back out quickly enough letting off before breaking the trigger (guessing there's a firing pin block in there to prevent that but it's still pretty unsettling). The fact that it made it into production and started shipping with that abomination of a trigger is powerfully stupid, and just plain sad, after what it must have cost to design, whomever designed or signed off on that trigger dropped the ball big time.

Hey Sig, I'm no marketing expert, but pretty sure the demand for a semi-autos with long, bad revolver triggers is pretty low.

Korenwolf
07-09-2011, 02:13 AM
What's funny is that they're using the G17 as a "stopgap" until they field the full complement of P250s.

It was only a stop-gap measure for the police SWAT teams, in other words about 200 pistols. The Dutch police SWAT teams work along side military CT teams quite a bit. Since these military CT teams are issued the GlockK 17, it was considered good practice to have all domestic SWAT/CT teams harmonize their equipment, a bit. I wonder if the SWAT teams get to keep their Glock's, after the police transition to the P250's.

Korenwolf
11-08-2011, 02:12 PM
There has been a new development in the Dutch police service pistol saga.

The Dutch Minister of Justice and Security has today announced the dissolution of the contract awarded to SIG-Sauer for the supply of the new Dutch police service pistol. After the contract was awarded to SIG-Sauer, there were still tests to be run on the new police cartridge (Action NP...see here for discussion (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/)) The production ready pistols failed three initial tests. SIG-Sauer was notified it was not fulfilling requirements. After the fourth and final test the Minister found that SIG-Sauer could not deliver the requisite quality in a mass production setting.

Quite harsh words were offered by the Minister on SIG-Sauer: "On the basis of the results of these tests I no longer find it responsible to continue with this pistol. There is no longer enough confidence in the quality of the pistol, nor in the capacity of the manufacturer to improve the quality or safeguard it. All this brings a risk to the safety of officers on the street."

Probably another manufacturer that tendered an offer/pistol will be chosen. Given the earlier preference voiced for the H&K P30, I think it will be selected.

LittleLebowski
11-08-2011, 02:17 PM
There has been a new development in the Dutch police service pistol saga.

The Dutch Minister of Justice and Security has today announced the dissolution of the contract awarded to SIG-Sauer for the supply of the new Dutch police service pistol. After the contract was awarded to SIG-Sauer, there were still tests to be run on the new police cartridge (Action NP...see here for discussion (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/)) The production ready pistols failed three initial tests. SIG-Sauer was notified it was not fulfilling requirements. After the fourth and final test the Minister found that SIG-Sauer could not deliver the requisite quality in a mass production setting.

Quite harsh words were offered by the Minister on SIG-Sauer: "On the basis of the results of these tests I no longer find it responsible to continue with this pistol. There is no longer enough confidence in the quality of the pistol, nor in the capacity of the manufacturer to improve the quality or safeguard it. All this brings a risk to the safety of officers on the street.

Probably another manufacturer that tendered an offer/pistol will be chosen. Given the earlier preference voiced for the H&K P30, I think it will be selected.

I didn't see where you were quoting that from at the link; could you clarify or show me what I'm missing?

ToddG
11-08-2011, 02:33 PM
Quite harsh words were offered by the Minister on SIG-Sauer: "On the basis of the results of these tests I no longer find it responsible to continue with this pistol. There is no longer enough confidence in the quality of the pistol, nor in the capacity of the manufacturer to improve the quality or safeguard it. All this brings a risk to the safety of officers on the street.

Source for this quote? I realize it probably won't be in English and I'm willing to believe your translation. :cool:

Korenwolf
11-08-2011, 03:12 PM
Apologies, the link was only for the cartridge. I did not think anybody would want to read Dutch;)

The source of everything in my post is from this letter sent by the Minister of Security and Justice (http://media.rtl.nl/media/actueel/rtlnieuws/2011/Briefdienstwapen.pdf) to the Dutch Parliament, to notify them on the problems and further course of action. The harsh words for SIG-Sauer are in the third paragraph.

If you want further translation of the document, I'll translate the whole thing.

EDIT: Question how do I upload a PDF here?

LittleLebowski
11-08-2011, 03:20 PM
Apologies, the link was only for the cartridge. I did not think anybody would want to read Dutch;)

The source of everything in my post is from this letter sent by the Minister of Security and Justice (http://media.rtl.nl/media/actueel/rtlnieuws/2011/Briefdienstwapen.pdf) to the Dutch Parliament, to notify them on the problems and further course of action. The harsh words for SIG-Sauer are in the third paragraph.

If you want further translation of the document, I'll translate the whole thing.

EDIT: Question how do I upload a PDF here?

I believe you can download the PDF to your computer and attach it. I used Google Translate on the PDF and it did not come out as well as your translation did (on my blog).

Korenwolf
11-08-2011, 03:25 PM
I'll translate it for you.

LittleLebowski
11-08-2011, 03:39 PM
I'll translate it for you.

Thanks, man.

Korenwolf
11-08-2011, 04:16 PM
Here you go.


Letter as sent to the Chairman of the Dutch House of Representatives

Date: November 8, 2011
Subject: Dissolution procurement agreement of new police service pistol.

Hereby I inform you that today I have with immediate effect decided to dissolve the agreement with the manufacturer of the new police service pistol, the company SIG-Sauer.

After the signing of the agreement the manufacturer prepared the pistol for mass production. Therefore the pistol had to be tested again. Furthermore the police had to test the pistol with the new police-cartridge (Action NP), as was communicated in the procurement procedure. This cartridge was only been available after the procurement and differs only minimally from the cartridge (Action 4) that was used during the procurement procedure. After the testing process was concluded three times with negative results the manufacturer was formally notified that it was not in compliance.
Unfortunately after the negative result of the fourth and last test it is found that the company SIG-Sauer cannot deliver the promised quality in mass production.

On the basis of the results of these tests I no longer find it responsible to continue with this pistol. There is no longer enough confidence in the quality of the pistol or in the capacity of the manufacturer to improve the quality or safeguard it. All this brings a risk to the safety of officers on the street. I have now delegated a (legal) review to examine the possibility of coming to an agreement with one of the other suppliers that has had their pistol operationally tested in the procurement procedure.

The replacement of the current police service pistol will be delayed by at least six months due to this. There will be new tests and a new retraining planning will be made. Till that time the current pistol (the Walther P5) will stay in use with the Dutch Police. The Glock 17’s will stay in use with the police SWAT teams. The safety and operational deployability of these pistols is so far still guaranteed.

I will provide you with more information as soon as possible.

Minister of Security and Justice,
I.W. Opstelten

Korenwolf
11-08-2011, 04:35 PM
On a side note: it seems it is bad week for the procurement department at the Ministry of Security and Justice as there is shit storm going on after allegations of irregularities surfaced concerning the awarding of a tender to the local Volkswagen importing company. The agreement would see the importer supply all vehicles to the Dutch police for the coming 4 years. Another point is that the cost has magically doubled from 500 million euros to 1 billion. But then dysfunctional organizations are hallmarked by decisions of epic stupidity.

Mitchell, Esq.
11-08-2011, 05:18 PM
Action NP...is that a proprietary loading, or a proprierary bullet itself?

Korenwolf
11-08-2011, 05:53 PM
I believe it is a design proprietary to the manufacturer RUAG, based on the requirements set forth by the Dutch Ministry of Security and Justice.
The propellant has a "forensic marker" which allows crime scene investigators to determine if a fired round was a police round or perp round. Also this marker will allow for shooting distances to be better gauged. Note that NP stands for "Nederlandse Politie" or in English Dutch Police. For more info in English about the ballistics see here (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/07/the-9x19mm-np-netherlands-police/)


http://www.politieparcours.eu/afbeeldingen/9x19_np.jpg

Todd with his orange fetish would probably digg it ;)
Note that orange is our national color. No Dutch blood Todd?

Your Pistol-Training.com/Pistol-Forum.com T-shirts would blend in really well during Queens Day:
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/foto/23991cc5_ANP_12539684.jpg
I think I'll be ordering a pair

ToddG
11-08-2011, 08:32 PM
A 94gr bullet traveling at 1,411fps that (a) penetrated adequately and (b) expanded well would definitely satisfy my secret light-fast fetish but I wouldn't carry it until DocGKR blessed it first. It's difficult to imagine it doing anything better than the 124 +p HST I carry now, but I'm sure years ago some wiseacre said the same thing about his 230gr RNL.

jetfire
11-09-2011, 09:59 AM
So you're telling us that what you really want for Christmas is a Glock chambered in 7.62 Tokarev and for Federal to start making a 7.62 Tok HST?

Mitchell, Esq.
11-09-2011, 12:18 PM
So you're telling us that what you really want for Christmas is a Glock chambered in 7.62 Tokarev and for Federal to start making a 7.62 Tok HST?

Will an 80 grain Barnes round used in .380 DPX, on a 9mm case with the round loaded to the absolute max do the same thing?

Mitchell, Esq.
11-10-2011, 02:26 PM
A 94gr bullet traveling at 1,411fps that (a) penetrated adequately and (b) expanded well would definitely satisfy my secret light-fast fetish but I wouldn't carry it until DocGKR blessed it first. It's difficult to imagine it doing anything better than the 124 +p HST I carry now, but I'm sure years ago some wiseacre said the same thing about his 230gr RNL.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=509

Bullet : 80gr Barnes TAC-XP Lead Free

Ballistics : 80gr @ 1560fps / 433ft. lbs. from a G17.
Ruger SR9C 3.5" velocity - 1400fps.

Mjolnir
11-13-2011, 07:47 AM
The design/manufacturing concept is golden; the execution not so much. It's very modular. I'd prefer having interchangeable grip panels a la P30, though. I'd also prefer an SRT DA
Trigger as opposed to the DAO it came with. The sights flat didn't work for me; I could see a reflection of the front sight dot on the slide. Damned near went cross-eyed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk