Re-holstering on the clock, good, bad, or indifferent?

[rob_s]

At a two-gun match in Florida recently a female first-time competitor shot herself in the leg while re-holstering a loaded pistol on the clock. As I understand it the COF did not offer a way to safely ground or otherwise ditch the pistol and in fact required the shooter to re-holster before switching to the rifle and engaging targets. This was not a case of two strings, but one continuous string that began with the pistol and ended with the carbine.

I believe that holstering a hot pistol on the clock is adding a level of danger that comes with no benefit to the shooter or the game.

Some have used the argument that the 3GN rules allow a shooter to holster on the clock, but I believe this argument is not applicable as the rules also state that no COF can REQUIRE a shooter to do so, meaning they must be given the option of grounding. Additionally, their rules state that you can't shoot prone with a loaded pistol in the holster, further reducing the number of times a shooter would holster a loaded pistol on the clock.

Others have used the argument that "because:tactical" in one flavor or another. I believe this argument is also flawed because (A) this is a game, not a SWAT raid and (B) even if it were a SWAT raid the possibility of needing to speed re-holster is so slim as to not be a skill that would need to be repeatedly tested in a match environment.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. It would be helpful if you state some context about yourself, such as wether or not you shoot competitively, if so what favors of competition you shoot, etc.

[Chris Rhines]

I don't like it. The risk of shooting one's self is real and substantial, and there's no benefit that I'm aware of.

I compete a lot, in 3-Gun, USPSA, IDPA, and other gun games. I'm a USPSA Production master and an IDPA SSP/ESP master. I shoot 8-10 major matches every year.

[BLR]

At a two-gun match in Florida recently a female first-time competitor shot herself in the leg while re-holstering a loaded pistol on the clock. As I understand it the COF did not offer a way to safely ground or otherwise ditch the pistol and in fact required the shooter to re-holster before switching to the rifle and engaging targets. This was not a case of two strings, but one continuous string that began with the pistol and ended with the carbine.

I believe that holstering a hot pistol on the clock is adding a level of danger that comes with no benefit to the shooter or the game.

Some have used the argument that the 3GN rules allow a shooter to holster on the clock, but I believe this argument is not applicable as the rules also state that no COF can REQUIRE a shooter to do so, meaning they must be given the option of grounding. Additionally, their rules state that you can't shoot prone with a loaded pistol in the holster, further reducing the number of times a shooter would holster a loaded pistol on the clock.

Others have used the argument that "because:tactical" in one flavor or another. I believe this argument is also flawed because (A) this is a game, not a SWAT raid and (B) even if it were a SWAT raid the possibility of needing to speed re-holster is so slim as to not be a skill that would need to be repeatedly tested in a match environment.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. It would be helpful if you state some context about yourself, such as wether or not you shoot competitively, if so what favors of competition you shoot, etc.

I shoot USPSA semi-competitively (no where as serious as before, solid B shooter in SS now). My passion is pins, so in that respect, holstering is a moot point.

I tend to agree, though. From the outside looking in, I have trouble coming up with a situation where speed holstering a hot gun quickly is of a benefit. YMMV, not a tacktickle person.

[Little Creek]

I believe that holstering on the clock, unless the slide is locked back, is just plain stupid. It should not only not be required, but should not be encouraged or even allowed. It is an accident waiting to happen. That is a no brainer. One should transition to the pistol once the rifle/carbine is empty, not the other way around.

I am 13 years retired from a 28 year Local/Federal LEO career. I started PPC competition in 1973. I started IPSC competiton in 1976. I went to the IPSC/USPSA Nationals 5 times during the 1980s. My best finish was 21st out of approximately 450. During my LEO career, one of my collateral duties was Firearms Instructor. I dabble in local 3gun, steel, and GSSF matches at this time. I am no longer hostile, mobile, and agile.

[Failure2Stop]

I shot that match.
I was present when it happened.
I was a direct witness, aided the injured woman, and was present until after the ambulance and police left.

1) The woman holstered at a point that did not require holstering.

2) There was a barrel at the carbine/pistol change-over point, which could be used to dump the empty pistol.

I make those clarifications not to argue, simply to put everyone on the same page in accordance with actual events.

Now, I do tend to agree that holstering a hot gun with easily defeatable safeties, on the clock is a bad idea. There are certain jobs that have the necessity to speed-holster; those jobs also come with training. Could an "average" person be forced to speed-holster at some point? The possibility exists. Is that something that needs to be part of a competition?

Now, most folks will agree that the answer to the last question is "no".
Every match that I have been to had a provision for dumping the pistol.
Do I always dump the pistol? Nope.
Do I sometimes holster a hot gun? Yup.
At any point was I forced to holster a hot gun? Nope.
Do I think that it's a good idea to dump instead of holstering for the majority of competitors? Yup.

I will submit that as long as the competitor is afforded the opportunity to dump the last used firearm, then the onus is on the competitor to determine if they want to holster a hot pistol.

This lady will not be the last one to self-inflict an injury on a range, regardless of what rules are implemented.

[rob_s]

I shot that match.
This lady will not be the last one to self-inflict an injury on a range, regardless of what rules are implemented.

I think that goes without saying. You can't fix stupid. You can, however, mitigate the opportunity for stupid. And, I would argue, anyone who is a Match Director, Rule writer/implementer, COF designer, or RO/SO volunteers to take on the responsibility to mitigate stupid to one degree or another.

Which brings up the question at hand, which is whether or not a COF or a set of rules for action competition shooting should require (or even allow, for that matter) holstering on the clock. Even if the event (which I intentionally left vague) didn't fit the parameters of the question, the fact is that the codified rules for the "association" allow/encourage it and other events and stages shot under those rules require/encourage/allow it.

For example, on the stages below, is there a place for the shooter to safely dump the pistol? Does the COF not appear to require the shooter to holster on the clock?

And, perhaps more subjectively, is there any reason the stage could not have been arranged such that the pistol portion was last, thereby eliminating the issue altogether?
(it should probably also be noted that the shooter apparently has a holstered pistol while shooting from prone, further negating the argument that "3GN does it" since that would be in violation of the 3GN rules)

http://youtu.be/UTTA7xoar-o

http://youtu.be/xEq29CIutxc

http://youtu.be/AAZZkznrOCM

[Failure2Stop]

I think that goes without saying. You can't fix stupid. You can, however, mitigate the opportunity for stupid. And, I would argue, anyone who is a Match Director, Rule writer/implementer, COF designer, or RO/SO volunteers to take on the responsibility to mitigate stupid to one degree or another.

Which brings up the question at hand, which is whether or not a COF or a set of rules for action competition shooting should require (or even allow, for that matter) holstering on the clock. Even if the event (which I intentionally left vague) didn't fit the parameters of the question, the fact is that the codified rules for the "association" allow/encourage it and other events and stages shot under those rules require/encourage/allow it.

For example, on the stage below, is there a place for the shooter to safely dump the pistol? Does the COF not appear to require the shooter to holster on the clock?

And, perhaps more subjectively, is there any reason the stage could not have been arranged such that the pistol portion was last, thereby eliminating the issue altogether?
(it should probably also be noted that the shooter apparently has a holstered pistol while shooting from prone, further negating the argument that "3GN does it" since that would be in violation of the 3GN rules)

http://youtu.be/UTTA7xoar-o

http://youtu.be/xEq29CIutxc

I can't see the video, work filter still being debugged.

I personally fall on the side of: it isn't necessary if done right, and if done wrong causes injury and stops shooting for the day.
Put a dump point at the change-over point.

[rob_s]

I can't see the video, work filter still being debugged.


The third video, which I added after you posted, shows Stage 5 of the USCA Nationals. I though there was even video somewhere of a handgun popping out of a race holster but I can't find it now. I believe the Noveske page also had video of their shooters having to hold the pistol in the holster while running.

I can't find a COF description now (can't recall if they were posted before the event or not)

For the benefit of others who are un-blocked, here is more from that stage at that match.

http://youtu.be/ulPCOkJp358

http://youtu.be/-0qeBaMNKr8

[SecondsCount]

I have helped RO at quite a few matches as well as fun shoots, etc. and I agree that dumping the pistol is the safest way to keep this type of thing from happening.

Unfortunately not all shooters that attend these events are at the same level and the rules must accommodate those that do not have the experience to handle firearms in an advanced environment.

[John Hearne]

Eeez gun, eeez not safe.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

[Failure2Stop]

The third video, which I added after you posted, shows Stage 5 of the USCA Nationals. I though there was even video somewhere of a handgun popping out of a race holster but I can't find it now. I believe the Noveske page also had video of their shooters having to hold the pistol in the holster while running.

I can't find a COF description now (can't recall if they were posted before the event or not)

For the benefit of others who are un-blocked, here is more from that stage at that match.

http://youtu.be/ulPCOkJp358

http://youtu.be/-0qeBaMNKr8

Got my filter taken care of.

All of the USCA nationals stages that involved a pistol/carbine change-over had a dump point.
In the stage 5 videos, you can see it at the end of the "hallway".
Now, there is a bit of an error in that the dump point could only be used if the shooter finished at that port (not dictated by the stage description or rules), so if the shooter finished on a closer port, they would have had to holster.
Easy fix to that is that there should have been another dump-point.

[rob_s]

Unfortunately not all shooters that attend these events are at the same level and the rules must accommodate those that do not have the experience to handle firearms in an advanced environment.

Excellent point. I call it "lowest common denominator stage design".

When I started SFDCC we would let anyone with a pulse come and shoot with us. In the beginning, that meant 99% known shooters as we weren't really advertising and I personally knew everyone that came out. As things grew, we couldn't keep doing things the way that we were because we were getting shooters that didn't know poop from brown bread. So we established a "qualifier" where we got eyes on every shooter and put them through a prescribed series of increasingly-difficult standards to check their proficiency and safety. That way we knew that every shooter was up to the task at hand. As things continued to grow, running the qualifier got tedious so we "dumbed down" the matches to the level that anyone off the street could perform the tasks at hand (basically, we eliminated the pistol from the matches altogether). Now that I am not running things, they are back to "no new shooters", although I'm not entirely clear on how that filter works since I'm just a shooter and in no way involved in the admin (other than the occasional scorekeeping, SOing, or advising on stage design).

[rob_s]

Got my filter taken care of.

All of the USCA nationals stages that involved a pistol/carbine change-over had a dump point.
In the stage 5 videos, you can see it at the end of the "hallway".
Now, there is a bit of an error in that the dump point could only be used if the shooter finished at that port (not dictated by the stage description or rules), so if the shooter finished on a closer port, they would have had to holster.
Easy fix to that is that there should have been another dump-point.

that is good to know. It isn't clear in the rules, nor is it clear in all of the COF/videos I've seen, nor has it been made clear in the other discussions I've had on the topic (they all trend towards "there's nothing wrong with requiring holstering on the clock" with no mention of "we don't require it, there's always a dump bucket").

At which point the question changes to whether it should be allowed, if it is never required. As well as the question of stage design which would eliminate these issues entirely, most of which would simply require a reversal of the stage to start with the carbine.

[Failure2Stop]

that is good to know. It isn't clear in the rules, nor is it clear in all of the COF/videos I've seen, nor has it been made clear in the other discussions I've had on the topic (they all trend towards "there's nothing wrong with requiring holstering on the clock" with no mention of "we don't require it, there's always a dump bucket").

At which point the question changes to whether it should be allowed, if it is never required. As well as the question of stage design which would eliminate these issues entirely, most of which would simply require a reversal of the stage to start with the carbine.

I would much rather have the discussion of whether or not to allow it, rather than discussing whether or not to have dump points.
For an event with a broad range of attendees, I would fall into the side of "no holstering on clock". Pretty easy to run two times if needed.

[Josh Runkle]

I personally fall on the side of: it isn't necessary if done right, and if done wrong causes injury and stops shooting for the day

This.

There is no certainty that hot reholstering will cause an accident, but there is little point to doing it, especially when it could cause an accident. The point of a shooting sport is to allow people to enjoy a shooting event IN A SAFE MANNER. I don't believe that hot reholstering is always dangerous, but it doesn't promote safety at an event where someone may have ZERO safety training. I feel that hot-SPEED-reholstering makes things much less safe.

Even for officers practicing speed reholstering to put cuffs on someone: no reason it can't be done with an unloaded gun or a blue gun. The technique might rarely have it's place, but mitigation of danger should also occur in training and competition.

[orionz06]

I suspect it depends on the participants and the goal. Among my friends, non-AIWB, for nothing other than beer? Probably OK.

There was a match in Michigan where I kinda reacted the same way as you, Rob, thinking it was really dumb. Folks involved were quick to mention that the right people, right stage, and right RO's make all the difference.


That said, I would likely stray from a match that did this now.

[Jack Ryan]

Guns are not toys. Don't play games with guns.

[Failure2Stop]

Guns are not toys. Don't play games with guns.

I'm not quite following you.
Are you saying that we shouldn't compete in games such as IDPA, USPSA, GSSF, Bianchi Cup, etc., because guns are too dangerous to use in a sport (game)?

I would propose that gun games are the number one use for above average gun owners.

I have certainly shot more rounds in competition than I have in actual gunfights, and have learned more in a competitive environment than I have in 99% of my government funded training.

[rob_s]

...the right people, right stage, and right RO's make all the difference.


For sure. Although I would say it's a combination of all of those criteria being met, not just one or two.

As mentioned, we shifted things to make what we wanted to do work the shooters that we were getting, or we filtered the shooters so that we could do what we wanted to. Both methods work well. I have also run private range days with personally-known shooters and there is certainly a different approach to much of what we do in those cases, starting with everyone remaining hot all the time vs. the constant "cold range" you find at most matches & even training.

[TAZ]

Guns are not toys. Don't play games with guns.

The shooter wasn't finger effing her gun for giggles; she made a mistake under stress, which is not all that difficult to do for new shooter or even older shooter.

Aside from some specific applications there is very little reason for the speed holster. As such the risk to reward ratio at a match is way out of balance. From a competitor's or a MD's view point the risks are too great to allow; much less mandate re holstering on then clock. As a competitor I would take time penalty and holster as I normally do; or if I felt I couldn't stop myself from going fast just pass on the stage and move on with life. What's the penalty for dumping a gun in the dirt??

[Josh Runkle]

Guns are not toys. Don't play games with guns.

Maybe I'm wrong, but, I think Jack Ryan meant: treat something that is capable of harming someone as if it is capable of harming someone.

Or:

Don't be a dick while dicking around with guns.

I didn't take it to be an anti-shooting sports statement.

[abu fitna]

I have seen a few scenario based training evolutions in which shooters are required to run dry on long gun, transition to pistol; then in a period of comparative lull (but still "on the clock" for overall evo), reload pistol, reholster, get long gun back in action, then advance from cover to complete the next phase of the problem.

More than a few practitioners rushed this particular lull more aggressively than I was happy with. And these were relatively experienced folks, but they were amp'ed up from the first strings of the stage, and things started to get sloppy. (Particularly depending on position taken when seeking available cover.)

Likewise, a few scenarios involved an initial problem presented when the shooter was armed only with their EDC pistol, but which required them to fight to a long gun. These scenarios have included some battlefield pickup type foreign weapons problems, when the shooter may not have had much prior experience with that particular platform. Complicating this, the shooter was also required to validate both readiness and acceptable condition of the recovered weapon (where examples of unacceptable condition were included on some evolutions). These weren't just cold stages - crawl / walk instructional phases had preceded the run - but even so, students tended to get sucked in the long gun problem and do some less than ideal things with regard to their use of cover, proper holstering of the pistol, and tactical reload / ammunition management.

So while I can see a few different use cases where one might wish to introduce problems to a shooter that would require management of a loaded pistol under time constraints, I don't think the majority of these are really appropriate for normal competition. At least in terms of folks tendancies to race the few seconds advantage in scoring terms. Start and stop the timer between phases for sport, or change to a dump point design.

[Lon]

I've done a lot of 3 gun competitions over the years, including some of the majors (Ft Benning, USPSA Nats, Rock Castle, etc) as well as ROing a bunch of local matches. Having seen what I've seen over the years, I would not allow the hot reholstering of a pistol. No point to it, in my opinion. The risks are too great. Dump designs are easy to set up, why tempt fate?

[JWinTN]

I've shot some local matches that required holstering hot during a stage. Wasn't a real big deal, but we are a relatively small group that had an understanding of the results of doing it wrong. For me, I tend to holster slow on the clock or off. I don't see the point of it in a generalized match setting, and safety being paramount in the typical match environment, what's the point in taking the risk for little benefit?

Here's one with pictures from what is described as an "action match": http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?58632-Glock-AD-GSW-at-Match

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Maybe I'm wrong, but, I think Jack Ryan meant: treat something that is capable of harming someone as if it is capable of harming someone.

Or:

Don't be a dick while dicking around with guns.

I didn't take it to be an anti-shooting sports statement.

My read was "if you can't handle people shooting themselves periodically, go knit sweaters or something".

Just my interpretation...


As far as reholstering goes, I do it hot all the time, like most people here. But when it comes to a competitive environment that encourages people to shave tenths off, doing it on the clock?

I would prefer not to.

Bartleby the Scrivener. Anybody?

[Jack Ryan]

I'm saying the same thing people have said about guns nearly since their invention, guns aren't toys.

Games are just games. They have rules and everyone is expected to play by the rule. If it get's too dangerous then they change the rules. People who want to win will stretch the rules, they'll lobby to change the rules. What ever.

Games aren't real life and playing games is not training to survive a shooting situation.

I just see a lot of hypocrisy in the gun community and game playing, safety concerns, and after the event quarterbacking. Be it a defensive situation, a family tragedy, a self inflicted AD, there are always people who want to make a new set of "rules" some one shoulda, woulda, coulda been doing "and that's why it will NEVER happen to me..."

Toys or not, guns are dangerous to use. If you use something dangerous enough, sooner or later someone is going to get hurt. Something you don't expect to happen is GOING to happen. Don't matter if it's a chainsaw, a gun, a bucket or a sharp stick.

I don't know the answer to everything, I just know I don't like seeing people get hurt because of ignorance, mistakes, stubbornness, or carelessness.

There's a thread about getting your heart rate up while shooting. You can't be seriously training yourself for a self defense situation and NEVER shoot under physical and emotional distress. I've done some improvisational shooting events similar in theory to biathlons, 3 D archery shoots. I've got a couple little courses at my own place I'll run once in a while. I've heard and understand the rational for running with your weapon in hand. I don't buy it. I don't do it, at least I don't plan to do it. If you don't have your weapon in your hand and you are being attacked, where is it going to be? If it might go back in the holster during a threat engagement, then you better practice it.

You can't guess when, where, or what might happen and especially what will happen after the first shot but I know one thing. Shooting competition, tin cans at home, to the death in a Walmart parking lot, guns are not toys. They are not for playing games. You are teaching tigers to sit on a stool and roar when you play games with guns. Someone could get hurt if they aren't careful.

[Josh Runkle]

I stand corrected.

[Lon]

Games aren't real life and playing games is not training to survive a shooting situation.

I don't think anyone here thinks otherwise. I don't. Gun games test SKILL. Nothing more.



I've heard and understand the rational for running with your weapon in hand. I don't buy it. I don't do it, at least I don't plan to do it. If you don't have your weapon in your hand and you are being attacked, where is it going to be? If it might go back in the holster during a threat engagement, then you better practice it.

That's the point of this thread. This isn't training for a lethal force engagement. It's a fricking game. You need to separate the two.


You can't guess when, where, or what might happen and especially what will happen after the first shot but I know one thing. Shooting competition, tin cans at home, to the death in a Walmart parking lot, guns are not toys.

Nobody said they were toys.


They are not for playing games.

Disagree completely. Guns have been used for competition (games, if you will) for hundreds of years.


You are teaching tigers to sit on a stool and roar when you play games with guns.

No idea what this means.


Someone could get hurt if they aren't careful.

And that's why we have rules. To minimize the chances of this happening. I've been shooting competition (USPSA) for 20 years. I'm less concerned with someone getting hurt at a USPSA/IDPA match than I am when teaching newbies in my CCW classes.

[Failure2Stop]

How about:
Guns are dangerous, treat them accordingly.

Because, really, that's the central theme of all this stuff with rhetoric removed.

[rd62]

Safety first. Whether it's designing a stage or shooting it. I think you can try and design around stupid but some of the responsibility certainly falls on the shooter too. It's better to sacrifice a second or two for safety then shoot yourself, especially if other safer means are at your disposal.

[Chuck Haggard]

While I see the point, I work with folks who often holster during or after rather stressful events and ain't none of them shot themselves yet. Perhaps training to do a skill before trying that skill under stress, and knowing when one is in over one's head, is a good idea.

[Dr. No]

I have re-holstered my gun under stress countless times over my career.

I've run down a crowded parking lot with a pistol in my hand.

I've bailed out of a moving vehicle with a pistol in my hand.

I've driven 100+ MPH chasing someone and loaded a rifle that was in my lap.

I've re-holstered on a 3 gun stage.


So to say that those things "don't happen" is a bit arrogant and wrong.


Failure2Stop nailed this one on the head - not only was the only one of us there and have real first hand observations, but he understands that you will never be able to completely prevent negligence and accidents. You do your best to mitigate it, but some random person will reholster their pistol at a point during a competition where they don't need to while their finger is on the trigger.......

Speaking of which, why aren't we clamoring for the 4 basic rules of gun safety being read every match like the pledge of allegiance?