My idea of a pistol caliber carbine/what would Caleb think?

[Little Creek]

I meant Caleb not Calib, but I cannot figure out how to change it.

I am getting old, my memory lapses. Every time I think I want a (centerfire) pistol caliber carbine as an understudy for my M4 carbines it is because I have momentarily forgotten about my M&P 15-22. I think the M&P 15-22 is as close as you can come to a M4 in a pistol caliber (OK 22lr is a rifle caliber too.). Why would I want a pistol caliber carbine? To train inexpensively and to safely pound steel plates at 10 to 25 yards. With a can and no ear protection, it sounds like you are hitting those steel plates with a ball peene hammer. Now that is about as much fun as you can have fully dressed with a 22lr firearm. Oh, did I say I stocked up on 22lr amo before the rush?

[John Hearne]

I've got an AR in 9mm and a 15-22. I find that the 22 doesn't always take steel, the 9mmm does. A local IPDA club lets me shoot the 9mm AR as a second gun and I find it very useful. If you use your rifle for self-defense in the continental U.S. environment, it will look a lot more like and IDPA match than Camp Perry.

[jetfire]

I actually really like the MP15-22 as a self-defense platform for shooters who can't operate a .223 for whatever reason. It's relatively reliable, it's very easy to shoot well, and 7 rounds of .22 LR in the chest is going to ruin someone's day. Would it be my first choice? Nope, nor my 2nd. But I wouldn't scoff at it either.

[Odin Bravo One]

I have both a SBR/Suppressed 15-22 & a 9mm (SBR & Suppressor in paperwork limbo) AR. Neither are anything more than toys and inexpensive ways to shoot the AR, or indoors where rifle calibers are not allowed. Certainly neither would be my "go to" choice for use in a self-defense situation, but if it is all I had, that wouldn't stop me from pulling the trigger and seeing what happens. Pretty unlikely for a self-defense situation to look like Camp Perry to be sure. But it won't look a whole lot like IDPA either............

[jetfire]

I have both a SBR/Suppressed 15-22 & a 9mm (SBR & Suppressor in paperwork limbo) AR. Neither are anything more than toys and inexpensive ways to shoot the AR, or indoors where rifle calibers are not allowed. Certainly neither would be my "go to" choice for use in a self-defense situation, but if it is all I had, that wouldn't stop me from pulling the trigger and seeing what happens. Pretty unlikely for a self-defense situation to look like Camp Perry to be sure. But it won't look a whole lot like IDPA either............

What are you talking about, just the other day I was getting gas while carrying a Glock 34 with only 10 rounds in the magazine and two spare magazines concealed under a vest. I was jumped by a gang of 9 thugs, the first three I engaged from cover around the gas pump, then I moved up to the next position of cover (an old shot up car that was just sitting there for some reason) and engaged the next two guys, but I made sure to shoot one of them 3 times so I could reload from slidelock. After reloading, I run to door of the convenience store and shot the last four guys with headshots from a distance of five yards, since they were all wearing body armor. After I finished, I made sure to unload and show clear, and checked my time on the ShotMaxx timer I always wear in case an IDPA stage breaks out.

[Failure2Stop]

A tool is a tool is a tool.
I might not be able to perfectly seat a screw with a 5 lb sledge, but if my life depends on it, you can bet your kitten that I'm going to try my damnedest to get that kitten to stick.

The ability to project will from distance is a great force multiplier, even if it doesn't achieve 100% of your goal immediately. The key factor is to make sure it is empty by the time his hands can touch you.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I have no good reason to want a subgun or PCC (I'm unclear on whether there is a difference or whether PCC is just what we say now that Kalash is a cool word).

And yet I constantly struggle with the desire to build both 9 and 10mm ARs with 9 or 10 inch barrels.

I think this is rooted in this weird obsession I have with maximizing powder burn. I know my 12.5 AR offers more hate to insert into jerks than any pistol caliber version would, but it just drives me crazy that there's all this powder flying around flashing and banging instead of making more velocity.

So yeah, I always kind of want a shorty AR that burns all its powder before the bullet is in the target.

9mm would be fun, and cheap.

10mm would (I assume) get me laid. Sadly it would get me laid by lonely basement-dwelling dudes, which is not really what I'm after...but you know, I'll take what I can get.

[DocGKR]

Full power 10 mm SMG's rock.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

You all saw that! I have legitimate ballistic grounds to build a 10mm AR now.

[Chuck Haggard]

You all saw that! I have legitimate ballistic grounds to build a 10mm AR now.


http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html

[Maple Syrup Actual]

What to use for a projectile, though?


KE has never really been an issue on PCs with decent case capacity...but somehow I just don't feel like I should be counting on, say...energy dump or hydrostatic shock.




Yeah, I said those words.

[Chuck Haggard]

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/127997/federal-premium-vital-shok-ammunition-10mm-auto-180-grain-trophy-bonded-jacketed-soft-point-box-of-20

[Spectre044]

What are you talking about, just the other day I was getting gas while carrying a Glock 34 with only 10 rounds in the magazine and two spare magazines concealed under a vest. I was jumped by a gang of 9 thugs, the first three I engaged from cover around the gas pump, then I moved up to the next position of cover (an old shot up car that was just sitting there for some reason) and engaged the next two guys, but I made sure to shoot one of them 3 times so I could reload from slidelock. After reloading, I run to door of the convenience store and shot the last four guys with headshots from a distance of five yards, since they were all wearing body armor. After I finished, I made sure to unload and show clear, and checked my time on the ShotMaxx timer I always wear in case an IDPA stage breaks out.

Where is the "Like" button when you need it?

[rob_s]

Where is the "Like" button when you need it?

It's right under then"douche" button.

[LittleLebowski]

It's right under then"douche" button.

Knock it off or leave one way or the other, Rob. There's no need for the negativity. Consider this a formal warning.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/127997/federal-premium-vital-shok-ammunition-10mm-auto-180-grain-trophy-bonded-jacketed-soft-point-box-of-20

Well, that about settles it for me...time to start importing parts.

[Chuck Whitlock]

What are you talking about, just the other day I was getting gas while carrying a Glock 34 with only 10 rounds in the magazine and two spare magazines concealed under a vest. I was jumped by a gang of 9 thugs, the first three I engaged from cover around the gas pump, then I moved up to the next position of cover (an old shot up car that was just sitting there for some reason) and engaged the next two guys, but I made sure to shoot one of them 3 times so I could reload from slidelock. After reloading, I run to door of the convenience store and shot the last four guys with headshots from a distance of five yards, since they were all wearing body armor. After I finished, I made sure to unload and show clear, and checked my time on the ShotMaxx timer I always wear in case an IDPA stage breaks out.


(Golf clap)

[TGS]

I do not see a .22LR being in the same camp as a PCC.

While most pistol calibers do not gain anything from a 16" bbl vs a 4" bbl, a quality 9mm JHP is still in a different league than a 22LR.

I honestly don't understand the acceptance many have for a 22LR just because it looks aesthetically similar to an AR15, when most of the same people will usually not find a 22LR pistol as an acceptable alternative to a 9mm pistol. If you want something to shoot for cheap, hey, I'm all for it; I own a few 22's as well....but let's not kid ourselves about that rifle's capabilities.

As for PCC's themselves, I think the Beretta is a pretty decent gun. I think I'd rather have that over a 9mm AR15.

[Tamara]

Speaking as a city-dweller who has to drive an hour to shoot a 5.56, a rimfire or pistol-caliber understudy for my big girl guns makes a ton of sense to me.

[Wheeler]

Grant Cunningham did an interesting article awhile back on PCC's. He noted that a 9mm does not benefit greatly from being shot from a 16" barrel and in some cases actually lost velocity. He also noted that the .40 had better performance than he expected. I'll take a .22LR any day in a good carbine platform. I'm not personally familiar with the 15-22's and I can see the attraction of a similar setup to your big kid gun for training. My personal preference is a 10-22. YMMV of course.

I've become very impressed with the magnum cartridges in a carbine platform. With certain loads a. .357 Magnum will reach the bottom end of the ballistic range of a .30-30 or a 7.62x39. A .44 Mag can reach well into the middle of those ranges. Of course those cartridges aren't offered in any current semi-auto platform but I feel I would be remiss for not mentioning them.

[jetfire]

I really really want to love leverguns for defensive use, especially in .45 Colt. But I can't, because they break a lot.

[Wheeler]

I really really want to love leverguns for defensive use, especially in .45 Colt. But I can't, because they break a lot.

I've ran around 1000 rounds of fairly hot .357 through my Winchester 94 AE. Most of that has been through a local "Tactical Rifle Match". The only two issues I've had thus far are it does heat up pretty quick and it absolutely will not cycle the Blazer Aluminum cased ammo. I'd be interested in what sort of breakages you're referring to so I can keep an eye on mine.

[Sadmin]

I do not see a .22LR being in the same camp as a PCC.

While most pistol calibers do not gain anything from a 16" bbl vs a 4" bbl, a quality 9mm JHP is still in a different league than a 22LR.

I honestly don't understand the acceptance many have for a 22LR just because it looks aesthetically similar to an AR15, when most of the same people will usually not find a 22LR pistol as an acceptable alternative to a 9mm pistol. If you want something to shoot for cheap, hey, I'm all for it; I own a few 22's as well....but let's not kid ourselves about that rifle's capabilities.

As for PCC's themselves, I think the Beretta is a pretty decent gun. I think I'd rather have that over a 9mm AR15.

Because we read that article about the Mossad using the Beretta model 70 to zap Palestinian terrorists on the tarmac! My wife has a 15-22 as her home gun. I've tried all calibers with her but it's the only one under time she can get hits that count. I agree, not ideal but 25 rounds of CCI is bad juju.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jetfire]

Lots of little stuff; but never on proper American guns. My only experience with running lever guns hard has been with various pastablasters.

[TGS]

Grant Cunningham did an interesting article awhile back on PCC's. He noted that a 9mm does not benefit greatly from being shot from a 16" barrel and in some cases actually lost velocity. He also noted that the .40 had better performance than he expected. I'll take a .22LR any day in a good carbine platform. I'm not personally familiar with the 15-22's and I can see the attraction of a similar setup to your big kid gun for training. My personal preference is a 10-22. YMMV of course.

I've become very impressed with the magnum cartridges in a carbine platform. With certain loads a. .357 Magnum will reach the bottom end of the ballistic range of a .30-30 or a 7.62x39. A .44 Mag can reach well into the middle of those ranges. Of course those cartridges aren't offered in any current semi-auto platform but I feel I would be remiss for not mentioning them.

It's no secret that most handgun calibers do not gain much if anything from a 16" barrel vs a pistol barrel.

Even with certain loads of 357 Magnum, I'm not sure what the actual terminal benefit would be, since math doesn't kill people. The bullet would most likely be outside its design envelope and perform worse than if it were a few hundred FPS slower.

Speaking of pastablasters and the existence of a 357 PCC, you could always buy the carbine version of the Mateba Unica-6 or MTR8 :D

[Wheeler]

Lots of little stuff; but never on proper American guns. My only experience with running lever guns hard has been with various pastablasters.

I've thought several times about picking one up as many of the SASS types seem to prefer them as build platforms. Then I remind myself that most of them are perfectly content to spend hundreds of dollars on a gun to make it load and cycle fast while shooting the lightest possible loads and I wander off in search of something else.

[Wheeler]

It's no secret that most handgun calibers do not gain much if anything from a 16" barrel vs a pistol barrel.

Even with certain loads of 357 Magnum, I'm not sure what the actual terminal benefit would be, since math doesn't kill people. The bullet would most likely be outside its design envelope and perform worse than if it were a few hundred FPS slower.

Speaking of pastablasters and the existence of a 357 PCC, you could always buy the carbine version of the Mateba Unica-6 or MTR8 :D

You apparently weren't present in some of my math classes... :)

Hornady LeverEvolution ammo has dropped deer at 125 yards with one shot. That's dropped, not wounded. It's no secret that long straight wall cases offer a huge range of ballistic performance. In my experience most 125 grain bullets tend to explode on impact when pushed up past 1800 fps. The 158 grain bullets have much better performance in the 1300-1700 fps range. If it can drop a deer it can drop a person.

It's also interesting to note that the use of lead bullets with a large meplat are very effective. I've yet to have one punch through a GA Whitetail, which are on the smallish side so I don't worry about over penetration. As I said earlier, YMMV.

As far as the revolving carbines go, I'm really jonesing for one of these for no good reason whatsoever...

http://www.alfa-proj.cz/en/products/firearms/licensed-arms/carbines/revolver-carbines-and-rifles/

[Jeep]

Wheeler: I've found that 125 grain hollow points out of a carbine tend to explode, but not soft points, which seem to penetrate well. The trouble is, though, that they seem to be much more inaccurate than the 158 grain bullets. I've read this has to do with bearing surface--the longer 158 grainers pick up the rifling better or something.

I have some Underwood ammo hard-cast 180 grain rounds, which supposedly do 1400 fps out of a pistol (I don't know if that is a 4 or 6 inch barrel). I haven't shot them yet out of a carbine, but if they are accurate that could be a good recipe. I wouldn't personally fire them out of a pistol, but I think the Marlin action should be able to take the pounding they will give it, and I figure they should clock almost 1800 fps (if not higher).

[Chuck Whitlock]

Federal has a few 180 grain loads that ought to work well out of a carbine.

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/compare/handgun_compare.aspx

[45dotACP]

One of my favorite ideas is the Ruger Deerfield Carbine. If they brought that back into production and with extended magazines, I'd be all over that like cheap on a Taurus.

[GJM]

I really really want to love leverguns for defensive use, especially in .45 Colt. But I can't, because they break a lot.

I have had bad luck with Marlin lever guns in pistol calibers, as they don't seem to feed well from weird positions. (Took most of UR at Thunder Ranch with a Marlin .44 magnum lever gun.) Marlin .45-70 lever guns are hell built for stout. I have a bunch of them and they run, even with very high round counts like 500 rounds (that is high round count for cartridges that big) of .45-70 full power ammo in less than a week at multiple courses.

Marlin lever guns seems susceptible to breaking firing pins if dry fired without a snap cap. I learned that the hard way. I prefer the pre 64 model 94 in 30-30 because it feeds well and is lighter than the Marlin 30-30 (which is built on the same frame as a Marlin .45-70.)

Backed up by a handgun, I would feel quite comfortable with a .45-70 Marlin in any "realistic" self-defense situation. The Marlin .45-70 Guide Gun and 12 gauge shotgun are the "Gunsite school solutions" for personal defense around North American dangerous animals.

[RevolverRob]

The Marlins and Winchester '94s leave a lot to be desired in reliable feeding of handgun cartridges. If you want a reliable lever gun in handgun cartridges you have to go back to the Winchester 1873. The Uberti built replicas are pricey, but probably the best made pistol-caliber lever action guns made today. The '73 is more reliable in feeding due to the elevator design. It works well in positions I have shot from including turned 90-degrees sideways, except upside down, but that's not really surprising, since the cartridge is maintained on the elevator by gravity.

Edit: My experience is .357 magnum variants. I have no idea if other Spaghetti guns in other calibers are better or worse. I do know I've never met a Marlin 1894 in .357 that worked right most of the time, let alone all of the time.

For me the 9mm AR15 is a thing of beauty. Simple, economical, with 9BPLE or Ranger +P+ I wouldn't really want to get shot with it. Actually, for that matter I don't want to get shot, period.

-Rob

[Jeep]

The Marlins and Winchester '94s leave a lot to be desired in reliable feeding of handgun cartridges. If you want a reliable lever gun in handgun cartridges you have to go back to the Winchester 1873. The Uberti built replicas are pricey, but probably the best made pistol-caliber lever action guns made today. The '73 is more reliable in feeding due to the elevator design. It works well in positions I have shot from including turned 90-degrees sideways, except upside down, but that's not really surprising, since the cartridge is maintained on the elevator by gravity.

Edit: My experience is .357 magnum variants. I have no idea if other Spaghetti guns in other calibers are better or worse. I do know I've never met a Marlin 1894 in .357 that worked right most of the time, let alone all of the time.

For me the 9mm AR15 is a thing of beauty. Simple, economical, with 9BPLE or Ranger +P+ I wouldn't really want to get shot with it. Actually, for that matter I don't want to get shot, period.

-Rob

Rob: I like just about all 9 mm carbines, but I have to tell you that I have a Marlin .357 Mag with several thousand rounds through it that has never given me any trouble. It was made before the Remington buy-out and I've never fired it (or any other rifle that I can remember) from a truly strange position, but it has fed lots of .357, and occasional .38, reliably and well. The only thing I changed from stock was to put a lighter trigger in and I did smooth the action a bit. It's a wonderful and reliable little rifle.

[Chuck Whitlock]

One of my favorite ideas is the Ruger Deerfield Carbine. If they brought that back into production and with extended magazines, I'd be all over that like cheap on a Taurus.

+1. I'd be all over it too.....IF it worked.

[HCM]

Re Pistol caliber lever guns: I was checking out one of the new production Winchester 92's in 357 recently and noted it was marked ".357 Magnum Only" Anyone have any insight on this ? Is this due to feeding issues ?

[45dotACP]

+1. I'd be all over it too.....IF it worked.

I'm not sure how it's never been considered before. Because really nothing quite says "Get off my lawn." like a three or four 240 grain hollowpoints at 1500 FPS...

And now way I'm shelling out the scratch for a .50 Beowulf.

[T.Stahl]

I think one of the main potentials of a semi-auto PCC is to accept the magazine in the grip, which moves the mag release in easy reach of the strong hand and reduces overall length without the drawbacks of a bullpup design. During the last years I saw a few Beretta Cx4 Storms at steel plate matches. They seem to handle and shoot nicely. If only Beretta made one that accepted Glock mags. Or Glock made something like it, preferably with a telescopic stock.

My experience with lever-actions in pistol calibers is a good one. My Rossi M92P in .44Mag runs just fine, feeds reliably and shoots well with right loads.

[TR675]

I think one of the main potentials of a semi-auto PCC is to accept the magazine in the grip, which moves the mag release in easy reach of the strong hand and reduces overall length without the drawbacks of a bullpup design. During the last years I saw a few Beretta Cx4 Storms at steel plate matches. They seem to handle and shoot nicely. If only Beretta made one that accepted Glock mags. Or Glock made something like it, preferably with a telescopic stock.

I really want to like the Storm, but for whatever reason the crossbolt safety throws me off. I just don't see the reason for it on what otherwise seems to be a very ergonomic and ambidextrous gun.

[T.Stahl]

Yes, the Cx4 is a good idea, just not completely finished.

[Wheeler]

The Marlins and Winchester '94s leave a lot to be desired in reliable feeding of handgun cartridges. If you want a reliable lever gun in handgun cartridges you have to go back to the Winchester 1873. The Uberti built replicas are pricey, but probably the best made pistol-caliber lever action guns made today. The '73 is more reliable in feeding due to the elevator design. It works well in positions I have shot from including turned 90-degrees sideways, except upside down, but that's not really surprising, since the cartridge is maintained on the elevator by gravity.

Edit: My experience is .357 magnum variants. I have no idea if other Spaghetti guns in other calibers are better or worse. I do know I've never met a Marlin 1894 in .357 that worked right most of the time, let alone all of the time.

For me the 9mm AR15 is a thing of beauty. Simple, economical, with 9BPLE or Ranger +P+ I wouldn't really want to get shot with it. Actually, for that matter I don't want to get shot, period.

-Rob

My .357 Magnum 94AE has given me no problems whatsoever in a local tactical rifle match with the notable exception of aluminum cased Blazer ammo. It's even one of the much derided models with a crossbolt safety.

[Spr1]

The .30-30 / .45-70 length cartridges are essentially controlled feed in the Marlin's. The pistol cartridges as mentioned above require gravity to maintain position, so if you were ever down or in a compromised position, and really needed it to work, it might not.

Fitting the .357 to the Marlin pistol caliber frame required a spring Steel guide be integrated into the ejector to align the cartridge with the chamber. In my opinion, the .357 Marlin is the least inherently reliable Marlin, but one of the most fun for plinking.
The 158 gr bullets can be very accurate, adding to the fun.

From memory, factory Federal 125 .357 would run 2150fps and might make a good ground hog caliber within range. Hornady 140 XTP's would run 1860fps, I always wanted to test that load on deer. Corbon .38 Special +p+ 115gr Sierra JHP would run over 2000 fps and would crater Steel (to my disappointment - "oh crap, check this out").

The .44 Magnum out of a carbine will kill deer decisively, more so in my experience than a .30-30.