Shooting to Slidelock???

[NETim]

Did a search and found nothing here on this topic.

Two esteemed instructors I am acquainted with are on opposite ends of the spectrum on this particular subject.

Frankly, I wouldn't want to go to slidelock, but counting rounds while contending with incoming fire just doesn't seem realistic to me. (Being a low cap/low IQ/low speed kind of guy particularly.) I just can't see myself stopping at round 8 with one to go in the tank if compliance and/or good cover has not been attained.

I have accepted the notion of shooting 'til it's dry may well be a reality. Yeah, it's great to top it off and know you've got a full load, but then do you want to take apart a perfectly operational gun in the middle of the festivities? Of course, there's the "lull in the action/load behind cover" theory, but does Mr. Murphy observe a "lull in the action?" Maybe this is why they tell me "you can be magnificent in a fight and still get killed?" It's a matter of luck.

Never been shot at and never had to shoot. Not a SME on a damn thing. So again, I am asea in the middle of battling opinions.

[JAD]

After enough discussion I have stopped perceiving dissonance between the "try not to let it happen and treat it as a malfunction if it does" and "it might happen so train for it" camps.

[John Hearne]

Of course, there's the "lull in the action/load behind cover" theory, but does Mr. Murphy observe a "lull in the action?"

This is what the speed reload is for. If you don't drop the magazine until the full one is up to the gun the Mr. Murphy has to be pretty freaking fast.

[Corey]

I remember when Gunsite issued penalties if you went to slide lock in a class. Cooper considered running dry to be a mortal sin. I have gotten over that and my own personal training is to shoot to slide lock. Topping off has its place, you just finished clearing an area and are getting ready to move to a new are to clear. Then you definitely want to top off. But that is not a situation a private citizen is likely to ever be in.

As for topping off during a lull in the fight, I figure that I won't know if it really is a lull or how long it will last until after it is over so I will just go ahead and keep shooting (provided there is a valid target available).

[Josh Runkle]

Depends what your training goals are. Are you trying to practice for a game? For concealed carry? Do you carry a firearm professionally? Personally I have different thinking dependent upon application...and others will disagree with me, I'm sure.

[41magfan]

In my limited experience, the circumstances and the platform dictated how and when the gun was reloaded and/or topped off. In a training environment with reactionary targets, I've been able to keep track of the number of "engagements" fairly well, but not so much the number of rounds fired as some targets required more hits than others. Two engagements with a 1911 and I'm looking to top off. With a Glock 17, perhaps three or four "engagements".

[Jack Ryan]

Did a search and found nothing here on this topic.

Two esteemed instructors I am acquainted with are on opposite ends of the spectrum on this particular subject.

Frankly, I wouldn't want to go to slidelock, but counting rounds while contending with incoming fire just doesn't seem realistic to me. (Being a low cap/low IQ/low speed kind of guy particularly.) I just can't see myself stopping at round 8 with one to go in the tank if compliance and/or good cover has not been attained.

I have accepted the notion of shooting 'til it's dry may well be a reality. Yeah, it's great to top it off and know you've got a full load, but then do you want to take apart a perfectly operational gun in the middle of the festivities? Of course, there's the "lull in the action/load behind cover" theory, but does Mr. Murphy observe a "lull in the action?" Maybe this is why they tell me "you can be magnificent in a fight and still get killed?" It's a matter of luck.

Never been shot at and never had to shoot. Not a SME on a damn thing. So again, I am asea in the middle of battling opinions.

You can't make "rules" for something like this.

If every one looks dead and there's a lull in the action, I'm reloading before I call 911.

If people are still shooting at me and I have bullets left in the gun, I'm shooting back until it's empty.

Period.

That's MY rule.

[KevinB]

Train for both.

Sometimes you need to shoot the gun dry.

Most qualification courses in the .gov (LE or MIL) will require some timed emergency reloads, however ammunition management other than those segments of the qual in the user 's responsibility.

Lull's in a fight are more easily defined in 1:1 shoots, or if you have a team pulling security.


I can pretty much guarantee you it is impossible to count rounds in a fight - as your concentrating on a whole bunch of other more pressing issues.
Most folks I know who advocate counting rounds have never been in a gunfight.

I believe it is important to reload when you can, before you need, but sometimes that is impossible. However before new rooms or movement from any semblance of cover I want to reload

[Beat Trash]

Train for both.

Sometimes you need to shoot the gun dry.

Most qualification courses in the .gov (LE or MIL) will require some timed emergency reloads, however ammunition management other than those segments of the qual in the user 's responsibility.

Lull's in a fight are more easily defined in 1:1 shoots, or if you have a team pulling security.


I can pretty much guarantee you it is impossible to count rounds in a fight - as your concentrating on a whole bunch of other more pressing issues.
Most folks I know who advocate counting rounds have never been in a gunfight.

I believe it is important to reload when you can, before you need, but sometimes that is impossible. However before new rooms or movement from any semblance of cover I want to reload

Short, sweet, and to the point. Excellent post.

We train to conduct a tactical reload if behind cover and there is a lull in the engagement. We also train to do an emergency reload, when shooting to slide lock. In practice, most of our OIS incidents end before the officer goes through their first magazine. But we have had a couple in which the officer shot to slide lock and had to reload because the incident was not over.

I would be leery of any instructor teaching absolutes in their class, or things such as counting rounds are mandatory in a gunfight. Real life critical incidents are so dynamic that there are few absolutes, other than failure is not an option, by any means necessary...

[GJM]

As so well demoed on that YT vid we recently had on the NY reload here, I thought real operators just draw their full size BUG?


http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12287-New-York-reload&highlight=York

[Beat Trash]

I apparently missed that entire topic on the NY reload video.

Thankfully...

WOW...

Hm, that guy had to try really hard to get his Glock to print that bad from an AWIB holster.

I have to step away from my computer for a few minutes. My brain hurts from watching that.

[45dotACP]

I was expecting a plot twist from that vid...like maybe his backup was an AK47 because I thought there was no way a pistol prints that badly.

Shoot to slidelock, transition to holstered AK!

[KevinB]

Please for the love of god let that whole fiasco go...

[Odin Bravo One]

Train for both.

Sometimes you need to shoot the gun dry.



................before new rooms or movement from any semblance of cover I want to reload


I find it sadly amusing those that insist shooting to slide/bolt lock is something bad. Usually those who show such disdain for it have never had to.

However, there is a difference between shooting the gun dry, and not properly managing your ammunition.


Whatever name you choose to assign a given set of specific tasks, probably a good idea to train for the possibility of needing to shoot the gun dry, drop a partial and get a full mag in the gun, and swap a partial for a full mag, then hang onto the partial.

[TAZ]

Bingo. Train for as many possibilities as you can effectively manage. It's better to know how to deal with running dry than to be in "holy crap mode". Seriously doubt anyone has been hampered by being prepared than the other way around.

[NETim]

Bingo. Train for as many possibilities as you can effectively manage. It's better to know how to deal with running dry than to be in "holy crap mode". Seriously doubt anyone has been hampered by being prepared than the other way around.

This has been my approach all along. I was slightly astonished to see someone even hint at the idea that shooting to slide lock somehow meant the shooter had screwed up. Stuff happens.

Improvise. Adapt. Overcome.

[Stengun]

Howdy,


.

Never been shot at and never had to shoot. Not a SME on a damn thing. So again, I am asea in the middle of battling opinions.

From what I understand from people that's truly "Been there, done that!" shooting to slide or bolt lock is usually considered a bad thing.

Sometimes it's unavoidable, but to do it on purpose is usually considered a "No-No".

The first time I ever shot an IDPA match the instruction on a certain stage was to "shoot to slide lock..."

Me "WTF?!? Your kidding, right?"

Range Master "No, that's how I layed out this stage."

Me "How much combat or LEO experience do you have?"

R.M. "None. I'm an elementary school principle."

Me "Ok, if you say so."

Paul

[Sheep Have Wool]

As a newbie, this discussion seems pretty damn baffling, so I'm hopeful that someone can clear this up.

While obviously it's a bad thing to turn a functional weapon into a crappy blunt force instrument by running dry, what are my alternatives? I mean, I can't exactly call a time out. I find it difficult in the extreme to imagine a situation where:
a) I have somehow managed to keep a perfect mental accounting of how many round I have fired despite someone shooting at me.
b) I pass up on a chance to shoot back at someone because I'll be empty if I do.

[ST911]

The first time I ever shot an IDPA match the instruction on a certain stage was to "shoot to slide lock..."

Me "WTF?!? Your kidding, right?"

Range Master "No, that's how I layed out this stage."

Me "How much combat or LEO experience do you have?"

R.M. "None. I'm an elementary school principle."

Me "Ok, if you say so."

Paul

Keep it in context. It's a stage during a game. Is he advocating the slide lock reload as the desirable combative technique, or is he playing with his stage?

I've also deliberately shot to slide lock during the game. Shooting the last couple of rounds in the mag with a slide lock reload was quicker than a retention reload, or dropping live rounds on the ground and taking the penalty.

This is one of many axles people get too wrapped around. When shooting for real, managing ammo as wisely as possible is the controlling principle. The dynamics of the confrontation will dictate the specific tactics.

[Zhurdan]

Keep it in context. It's a stage during a game. Is he advocating the slide lock reload as the desirable combative technique, or is he playing with his stage?

I've also deliberately shot to slide lock during the game. Shooting the last couple of rounds in the mag with a slide lock reload was quicker than a retention reload, or dropping live rounds on the ground and taking the penalty.

This is one of many axles people get too wrapped around. When shooting for real, managing ammo as wisely as possible is the controlling principle. The dynamics of the confrontation will dictate the specific tactics.

Serious question... for those who've "been there, done that", is it more a matter of going "1,2,3,4...27,28,29.. crap, better reload" or is it more of a "I know I'm hitting what I'm shooting at because I practice a lot and I shot nine guys three time each" ? For instance, when shooting an MP5 on TRB, I was taught to count to 10 ( it makes it easy when it's a Navy 4 position), not saying what I was taught was right, just that it is what I was taught, considering the mechanics of a reload with an MP5.

I've gamed the hell outta shooting when it was Cowboy Action, because you don't have to count that high and there isn't anyone shooting back, but I find it hard to believe that anyone but the gnarliest of individuals are going to be counting to thirty without sharting themselves. ;-)

[JAD]

As a newbie, this discussion seems pretty damn baffling, so I'm hopeful that someone can clear this up.

While obviously it's a bad thing to turn a functional weapon into a crappy blunt force instrument by running dry, what are my alternatives? I mean, I can't exactly call a time out. I find it difficult in the extreme to imagine a situation where:
a) I have somehow managed to keep a perfect mental accounting of how many round I have fired despite someone shooting at me.
b) I pass up on a chance to shoot back at someone because I'll be empty if I do.
I can only speak to theory and that not so well. The principle is that if we're discussing reloads at all we are probably talking about a protracted gunfight, and during such there may be times when you are not completed occupied with shooting, moving, or communicating. At such a time, should it happen, it would be neat if you brought your gun up to full capacity. If you don't know how protracted your gunfight might be, and your ammo supply is finite, it would be even neater if you recovered or didn't discard the remainder of the ammo in your gun. If such an opportunity never arises, then it's a good thing to know how to reload with the slide back.

I would have to study givens more to know how protracted civil gunfights tend to be. My perception is not so often.

[Stengun]

Howdy Zhurdan,


Serious question... for those who've "been there, done that", is it more a matter of going "1,2,3,4...27,28,29.. crap, better reload" or is it more of a "I know I'm hitting what I'm shooting at because I practice a lot and I shot nine guys three time each" ? For instance, when shooting an MP5 on TRB, I was taught to count to 10 ( it makes it easy when it's a Navy 4 position), not saying what I was taught was right, just that it is what I was taught, considering the mechanics of a reload with an MP5.

I've gamed the hell outta shooting when it was Cowboy Action, because you don't have to count that high and there isn't anyone shooting back, but I find it hard to believe that anyone but the gnarliest of individuals are going to be counting to thirty without sharting themselves. ;-)

After shooting a couple of IDPA matches I figured out it was a game and since I busted my knees up in the military ( I had a knee replace in '09 when I was 45yo ) and would never be fast enough on the stages where you had to do a lot of moving around. I would tell the young guys there "You might out run me but you're not going to out gun me so you better be pretty fast."


Like I said, sometimes shooting to slide or bolt lock is unavoidable.

I have sent many rounds down range in full auto and you don't try to count the rounds, you count the burst the best you can. With an M-16 I would always load 5 rounds, then a tracer pround and top the mag off for a total of 28 rounds. Tougher to do with an MP-5 since back in the 80's and early 90's no one made a 9mm tracer round.

Since you have to reload anyway, isn't it better to reload an active weapon or try to turn an expensive rock or stick into a weapon?

I turned 50 last month and since I'm too old, fat and crippled up to be on the battlefield any more, I've had to change my tactics from offensive to defensive so "if" I'm ever in another shooting/shoot out/fire fight/etc I figure it will happen at the local "Gas-N-Rob", there will be two BGs ( maybe 3 max ) and I'll either be armed with either a Glock 23 w/ 13 rounds, a Glock 35 w/ 15 rounds, or a Taurus PT 845 .45acp w/ 12 rods and after they are DRT I'll change mags then.

HTH, just my $.02, and your mileage MAY vary. ;)

Paul

[Zhurdan]

Stengun,
I see the benefit, I was simply asking the question for clarification. I'm not military. I simply, at one point, had more money than smarts and did a lot of shooting/training. I've not been shot at, but I have had to draw my gun, twice without having to have to shoot anyone, luckily. (Damn lucky at that!) Putting people under duress is one thing, and I've seen peoples sh#t go sideways during a match until they get the "game" part down just under simple pressure. I know that I can do it in a "game", and I know that during the two incidents where I had to draw my gun, my hand was steady... right up until the situation resolved itself... then, I may or may not have lost control of my pee control (the first time) and damn near sharted myself the second time. The responding Trooper actually said to me "if that's all you did, you did well for your first time".

The thing that bothers me most, as others have pointed out, is that some people train in absolutes. I friggin' hate that!

[Steve5321]

I am a Level 4 PPO and we train every week. If it is required, you shoot till you are dry and then do an emergency reload (with Lots of practice it can be down in less than 1.5 seconds), if there is a breather between shots, a tac reload. Bottom line is, You do what you gotta do! I would think that trying to count shots in a fire fight would get you killed.

[dbateman]

If I need to shoot now I'm firing and probably moving, I cant count and move and see everything that is happening at the same time.... If you're in a close in fight you're going to shoot till whatever you're shooting at doesn't need shooting anymore or your gun runs dry, it's not a malfunction its how your gun works.

Train for it, train other ways to load as well. Its like everyone trains prone but offhand is the one that saves your bacon.

If on the other hand I'm hunting I have distance, time and opportunity I will usually count my rounds and reload when appropriate.

[45dotACP]

I would have concerns if it became necessary to reload my gun at all. That said, I practice slide lock reloads, because speed reloads are the same except for one detail that I'd leave out. I'm no SME though, and this is the internet so my advice is worth the price you paid for it. You won't get a refund.

[David Armstrong]

I don't try to count rounds and I don't worry about it. If I have to shoot and don't have a chance to reload at some point then I clearly need to keep shooting and hope for the best. If I have shot awhile and have the chance to reload without apparently increasing my danger level then clearly I need to take the chance to reload and should do the reload as fast as possible (speed reload). If I'm on the range and not worrying about winning a fight I'll consider a tac reload.