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cclaxton
06-22-2014, 09:58 AM
Some videos of me and my squad shooting The Carolina Cup 2014.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/115171063246096811918/albums/6027752364305823553
We had great weather, although it was really muggy/wet on Saturday from the rain on Sat night.
18 stages over two days.

Interesting facts and comments:
- The guy who was SSP Champion (SSP Master) has never shot USPSA, and lamented he would have liked to go up against Vogel (Vogel had a money-making training event)
- Scott Warren, Morgan Allen and Brandon Wright all shot the match;
- There was only .5sec difference in time between the ESP Champion and SSP Champion;
- There were enough SSR revolver shooters for one guy to get a match bump to Expert;
- The largest Div/Class was SSP Sharpshooter;
- The fastest time was about 223s, the slowest was over 500s, average around 330 seconds.
- Most interesting stage: shooting with head upside down and targets right side up, laying on a decline table with feet at the top and head at bottom;
- Most uncomfortable stage: Shooting weak hand while retreating, then reloading from slide lock without moving your gun out of the weak hand;
- Stage needed the fastest shooting: At cash register, grab gun off counter underneath register and engage 3 moving and disappearing targets 2 shots each within 3 seconds.
- Toughest Shots: Shooting from the rear of a caravan through it's windows, through another set of car windows head shots 3 shots each at about 15 yards without hitting headrest or car metal;
- Most fun stage: Cash register stage and two simultaneous drop turners sitting from table.
- Local shooters came home with 1st Place SSR SS (and bump to Expert), 1st Place CDP SS (and bump to expert), Mike Haskin 3rd Place ESP SS (and match bump) and Darryl Swiggett 4th Place ESP SS.
- Me...lower third of SSP SS. Had way too many procedurals and shot too slow. Only 1 non-threat made me happy.

If you have never been to The Carolina Cup, you need to do it...at least once in your life. Oh, and don't forget about the southern hospitality and great NC barbecue. You will not regret it....even Grand Master's and Five Gun masters are humbled by the match.

Cody

chuck s
06-22-2014, 11:48 AM
Actually, the SSP champ is a USPSA GM

KeeFus
06-22-2014, 11:52 AM
Actually, the SSP champ is a USPSA GM

Yeap...

cclaxton
06-22-2014, 12:32 PM
I stand corrected. I was talking to Nick and I must have misunderstood.
However, he did start in IDPA....and still shoots it.
Cody

abu fitna
06-22-2014, 03:28 PM
Is the Five Gun Master still a thing? Been a while since I heard that in any context other than a joke...

And was the medically impaired shooter allowed to compete? Must say when I heard about that one it seriously made me question what "big IDPA" is thinking these days. We can quibble back and forth over a lot of little stupidity (or even bigger and more flashy kinds of stupid that are just flavours of organizational derp.) But when it comes to even debating appropriate reactions to things like prior grand mal seizures on the shooting line...

Pup town
06-22-2014, 03:33 PM
I stand corrected. I was talking to Nick and I must have misunderstood.
However, he did start in IDPA....and still shoots it.
Cody

I think your anti-USPSA bias is effecting your hearing.

You are right that the Carolina Cup is a special match, though.

PPGMD
06-22-2014, 03:38 PM
And was the medically impaired shooter allowed to compete? Must say when I heard about that one it seriously made me question what "big IDPA" is thinking these days. We can quibble back and forth over a lot of little stupidity (or even bigger and more flashy kinds of stupid that are just flavours of organizational derp.) But when it comes to even debating appropriate reactions to things like prior grand mal seizures on the shooting line...

I wonder if it was the same guy as the guy who came up during a recent USPSA BOD meeting due to a seizure at a match that caused him to sweep the entire line?

Anyways what brought that up, I didn't see anything about that in Cody's post?

abu fitna
06-22-2014, 03:47 PM
Supposedly the same guy as the earlier USPSA incident was also scheduled to compete at the Cup, and IDPA mgt was not exactly active on addressing the issue. But I don't know the full story here, just heard about this from some other folks who apparently got all fired up about it this week. (I guess there has been a lot of things to get folks seeing red this week, but I am well behind the curve in hearing the news).

brought it up simply because this seemed to be a thread discussing what went down at the Cup, by someone that was there. Wished I could have been, but the job gets in the way of a lot of things these days.

cclaxton
06-22-2014, 04:15 PM
Supposedly the same guy as the earlier USPSA incident was also scheduled to compete at the Cup, and IDPA mgt was not exactly active on addressing the issue. But I don't know the full story here, just heard about this from some other folks who apparently got all fired up about it this week. (I guess there has been a lot of things to get folks seeing red this week, but I am well behind the curve in hearing the news). brought it up simply because this seemed to be a thread discussing what went down at the Cup, by someone that was there. Wished I could have been, but the job gets in the way of a lot of things these days.

No one was saying anything about this issue. The most controversial things were related to Frank redefining that a position, in this case P2 was about 6 feet wide, and since it was ONE shooting position, you could reload anywhere within that position even if you moved your feet. Most of the other discussions were around the usual questions about whether a particular stage met all the legal requirements, and whether procedural calls were legit. I know of only one case where Frank was called to make a ruling.

The SO's at The Range have seen a lot of improper handling over the years and know how to deal with it. I don't think I am going out on a limb here to say that Frank generally believes people should have the chance to shoot. So, it would surprise me if he denied any shooter unless he was personally convinced the shooter isn't safe. But I have no direct knowledge.
Cody

m91196
06-22-2014, 05:13 PM
Gordon Carroll 1st ESP master was 32 seconds faster then 2nd place esp master at 208.08

Was There a deep field of esp DM's or something?

The scores won't make the IDPA site, powered by Range waste, for days.....

Pup town
06-22-2014, 05:43 PM
The SO's at The Range have seen a lot of improper handling over the years and know how to deal with it.
Cody

Out of curiosity, how would one deal with a shooter who has a seizure while his pistol is drawn and he is engaging targets? This wasn't covered in my RO class.

Failure2Stop
06-22-2014, 05:54 PM
Out of curiosity, how would one deal with a shooter who has a seizure while his pistol is drawn and he is engaging targets? This wasn't covered in my RO class.
you'll need a young priest and an old priest...

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JM Campbell
06-22-2014, 06:06 PM
If you have a history of gm seizures you can not drive...what makes it Ok to run a gun with 10 projectiles that can kill?

I'd hope to god someone would bench me if I had those issues. Just saying.


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Paul D
06-22-2014, 06:31 PM
If you have a history of gm seizures you can not drive...what makes it Ok to run a gun with 10 projectiles that can kill?

I'd hope to god someone would bench me if I had those issues. Just saying.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

That is not true. In most states you can drive if your seizure disorder is under control by medications. In NC, you need only a attestation from your physician to drive. In Arizona, if you are newly diagnosed with a seizure disorder or a significant stroke, you are banned from driving for 3 months until cleared by your Neurologist. When people have seizures, they don't start flailing around with the uncontrollable urge to pull their trigger fingers. A lot times they freeze up, drop everything from their hands and lose bowel and bladder control. People with seizure disorders live productive lives, work and pay taxes and have fun. I think to demonize them as time bombs is wrong. Now if that dude in question is a non-compliant patient...his is a liability to hurt himself for sure.

orionz06
06-22-2014, 07:02 PM
- Most interesting stage: shooting with head upside down and targets right side up, laying on a decline table with feet at the top and head at bottom;


How did they set this up safely?

JM Campbell
06-22-2014, 07:11 PM
That is not true. In most states you can drive if your seizure disorder is under control by medications. In NC, you need only a attestation from your physician to drive. In Arizona, if you are newly diagnosed with a seizure disorder or a significant stroke, you are banned from driving for 3 months until cleared by your Neurologist. When people have seizures, they don't start flailing around with the uncontrollable urge to pull their trigger fingers. A lot times they freeze up, drop everything from their hands and lose bowel and bladder control. People with seizure disorders live productive lives, work and pay taxes and have fun. I think to demonize them as time bombs is wrong. Now if that dude in question is a non-compliant patient...his is a liability to hurt himself for sure.

Understood on that, the question is how do you make sure the person is medicated and under control? I have had family and close friends with this issue, I am not insensitive to it in the least and well aware of what happens. I have sacrificed my wallet more then once for the greater good.

GJM
06-22-2014, 07:42 PM
YVK said, in another thread, that he won an IDPA match this weekend. Was it this match?

KeeFus
06-22-2014, 07:51 PM
How did they set this up safely?

If you have Facebook look up Gun Girl Bree. She has a video of that stage.

Paul D
06-22-2014, 08:47 PM
Understood on that, the question is how do you make sure the person is medicated and under control? I have had family and close friends with this issue, I am not insensitive to it in the least and well aware of what happens. I have sacrificed my wallet more then once for the greater good.

Basically you ask them to and you assume the risks of going into an environment where people are shooting guns. Otherwise you would have to ask on the Carolina Cup application their medical history; make sure you follow HIPPA (HEALTH INSURANCE PORTABILITY AND ACCOUNTABILITY ACT) laws and regulations; get a physician to set protocols and rules, etc, etc. Heck, I think dangerous gun handling habits like running between targets with the finger on the trigger is way more prevalent than seizures. You don't even have to prove that you passed any gun safety class or even know how to shoot (ie Novice rating) to participate in the event. IDPA allow for physically disabled people to participate. There is enough nannies and regulators in the gun world....they don't anymore help excluding people from shooting.

PPGMD
06-22-2014, 08:57 PM
Basically you ask them to and you assume the risks of going into an environment where people are shooting guns. Otherwise you would have to ask on the Carolina Cup application their medical history; make sure you follow HIPPA (HEALTH INSURANCE PORTABILITY AND ACCOUNTABILITY ACT) laws and regulations; get a physician to set protocols and rules, etc, etc. Heck, I think dangerous gun handling habits like running between targets with the finger on the trigger is way more prevalent than seizures. You don't even have to prove that you passed any gun safety class or even know how to shoot (ie Novice rating) to participate in the event. IDPA allow for physically disabled people to participate. There is enough nannies and regulators in the gun world....they don't anymore help excluding people from shooting.

HIPAA has a pretty narrow list of people that are covered under that law, there are few covered entities outside of people that are involved directly in the providing and billing of medical care.

Anyways as you noted it is pretty uncommon. USPSA dealt with it via a BOD meeting but only after the shooter had a seizure at a major match that resulted in him sweeping everyone on the stage. And from my understanding the response was to suspend the shooter until he could show proof that he could safely compete. But there is nothing written down so this information is third hand.

orionz06
06-22-2014, 09:49 PM
If you have Facebook look up Gun Girl Bree. She has a video of that stage.

Saw it. That's about the only way I was imagining it to work out.

cclaxton
06-22-2014, 10:17 PM
How did they set this up safely?

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/115171063246096811918/albums/6027959431756332465/6027959433547497522

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/115171063246096811918/albums/6027752364305823553/6027960676066037682?pid=6027960676066037682&oid=11 5171063246096811918

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/115171063246096811918/albums/6027752364305823553/6027752363388669410?pid=6027752363388669410&oid=11 5171063246096811918

Go up set loaded gun on mat. Then position head so top of head is on ground near gun looking downrange. On signal grab gun, shoot.
Bullet rotates opposite direction and grease rings were upside down.
;)
Cody

abu fitna
06-23-2014, 06:45 AM
HIPAA has a pretty narrow list of people that are covered under that law, there are few covered entities outside of people that are involved directly in the providing and billing of medical care.

Anyways as you noted it is pretty uncommon. USPSA dealt with it via a BOD meeting but only after the shooter had a seizure at a major match that resulted in him sweeping everyone on the stage. And from my understanding the response was to suspend the shooter until he could show proof that he could safely compete. But there is nothing written down so this information is third hand.

This is precisely why the matter at controversy appears to have arose - and I begin to see why some folks got more than a little upset. Vague handwaving about laws written to cover specific medical interactions between patients and providers have nothing to do with appropriate limitations on participating at sporting events for those that create risk exposure for others.

The response that one should not exclude participants is deeply unsatisfactory. This is a ball of suck either way for the unfortunate individual, but this is not about how folks feel.

I had a colleague face seizures from specific neurological damage, and while it was hard this was an immediate downselect from all armed activities in a professional setting where they were very important to the performance of the job (to put it mildly). The risk of ND during clonic muscle contractions was deemed simply unacceptable - given that some subjects in seizure have broken bones or otherwise stressed joints to the point of injury, a few pounds of pressure and an uncontrolled muzzle is a very real scenario. The risk was considered worse in this case as the effects of sustained, high pressure sound events from thousands of rounds sent downrange in often very close proximity to other shooters on the specific condition were entirely unknown). The standard by which medical clearance would then be needed to permit return to duty was based on documented control of condition over a specific period of time - and this was not going to be easy to meet at all. Last I knew, this was still disqualifying many years later.

This is not an idle conversation about a single case, and isn't something that is supposed to call out any named individual. This is something that has to be addressed appropriately - there are a lot of folks with TBI effects that need to be considered here. Excluding the wrong folks is bad, but creating conditions where real problems happen and folks start handwaving it away is not going to help.

In a sporting event, compliance is going to have to be mostly voluntary - but in documented cases, there is going to have to be some sort of response (and a policy framework to address future responses), or else there is the very good chance someone will incur a considerable amount of paperwork for an organization. It would not be a stretch to say that an negative event under such conditions may imperil the future status of a growing organization.

Now, I don't have a dog in the fight here - but I am for kittens sake sure that I would be unwilling to continue to shoot with or in the same bay as any individual with a known de-habilitating condition. And just saying that any MD - no matter how much I might personally respect them - has a history of carrying out safe events is not enough by itself.

JM Campbell
06-23-2014, 09:11 AM
This is precisely why the matter at controversy appears to have arose - and I begin to see why some folks got more than a little upset. Vague handwaving about laws written to cover specific medical interactions between patients and providers have nothing to do with appropriate limitations on participating at sporting events for those that create risk exposure for others.

The response that one should not exclude participants is deeply unsatisfactory. This is a ball of suck either way for the unfortunate individual, but this is not about how folks feel.

I had a colleague face seizures from specific neurological damage, and while it was hard this was an immediate downselect from all armed activities in a professional setting where they were very important to the performance of the job (to put it mildly). The risk of ND during clonic muscle contractions was deemed simply unacceptable - given that some subjects in seizure have broken bones or otherwise stressed joints to the point of injury, a few pounds of pressure and an uncontrolled muzzle is a very real scenario. The risk was considered worse in this case as the effects of sustained, high pressure sound events from thousands of rounds sent downrange in often very close proximity to other shooters on the specific condition were entirely unknown). The standard by which medical clearance would then be needed to permit return to duty was based on documented control of condition over a specific period of time - and this was not going to be easy to meet at all. Last I knew, this was still disqualifying many years later.

This is not an idle conversation about a single case, and isn't something that is supposed to call out any named individual. This is something that has to be addressed appropriately - there are a lot of folks with TBI effects that need to be considered here. Excluding the wrong folks is bad, but creating conditions where real problems happen and folks start handwaving it away is not going to help.

In a sporting event, compliance is going to have to be mostly voluntary - but in documented cases, there is going to have to be some sort of response (and a policy framework to address future responses), or else there is the very good chance someone will incur a considerable amount of paperwork for an organization. It would not be a stretch to say that an negative event under such conditions may imperil the future status of a growing organization.

Now, I don't have a dog in the fight here - but I am for kittens sake sure that I would be unwilling to continue to shoot with or in the same bay as any individual with a known de-habilitating condition. And just saying that any MD - no matter how much I might personally respect them - has a history of carrying out safe events is not enough by itself.

More eloquently said than me. I agree with your statement above 100%.

I guess I'm more of a neanderthal in the typing and conveying my thoughts. Thank you for saying what I was trying to.

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jetfire
06-23-2014, 09:27 AM
Does anyone have a link to the posted scores?

cclaxton
06-23-2014, 09:51 AM
As of this hour not posted officially. There might be some cell phone pics around, but I couldn't find them.
Cody

NEPAKevin
06-23-2014, 10:30 AM
Last year, they were posted on the cup's home page either Monday or Tuesday after the match. http://the-carolinacup.com

KeeFus
06-23-2014, 07:38 PM
Does anyone have a link to the posted scores?

Results: http://www.the-carolinacup.com/results/2014/Results.pdf

jetfire
06-23-2014, 08:26 PM
Results: http://www.the-carolinacup.com/results/2014/Results.pdf

Thanks!

Man, that was not a very deep field this year.

BN
06-23-2014, 09:04 PM
Thanks!

Man, that was not a very deep field this year.

No SSR Masters!!! Most years there are a half dozen.

jetfire
06-23-2014, 09:14 PM
No SSR Masters!!! Most years there are a half dozen.

That was the first thing I noticed. Also, no Shelby or Olhasso in CDP, no Vogel either.

KeeFus
06-24-2014, 05:53 AM
...Olhasso in CDP...

At the 2012 IDPA Nationals I watched/listened to him ALL DAY. He stated, among other things, that he was "done with IDPA..." several times. Of all the pro shooters I have been around his attitude left a lot be desired...without question he has skills but his attitude works against him in my opinion.

Does he still shoot for S&W?

rsa-otc
06-24-2014, 08:24 AM
Not defending him just that during the couple of years leading up to the 2012 nationals I shot with Dave on a regular basis.

I know his reputation. I can only say that in my dealings with him he has treated me and mine well. I know that when my revolver went down right before the NJ state championships he was right there offering his. When my daughter came out to shoot IDPA initially he insisted that she use one of his guns and ammo and couched her through her first match.

I believe Dave is still shooting for Smith but is concentrating on revolvers. He shows up at some of the local sanctioned matches to fly the colors so to speak.

jetfire
06-24-2014, 09:32 AM
At the 2012 IDPA Nationals I watched/listened to him ALL DAY. He stated, among other things, that he was "done with IDPA..." several times. Of all the pro shooters I have been around his attitude left a lot be desired...without question he has skills but his attitude works against him in my opinion.

Does he still shoot for S&W?

He shot the 2014 Indoor Nationals and the 2013 "Big" Nationals.

NEPAKevin
06-24-2014, 10:29 AM
When I first started working major matches, and did not have the good sense to KISS my stage designs, Dave was one of the guys who took the time to give me tips on how to take MacGyvered props and set them up so they are consistent from run to run and I appreciated the constructive criticism. He rubs a lot of people the wrong way but that's not exactly unexpected when you put a bunch of alpha types in the same coral.

Mr_White
06-24-2014, 11:16 AM
I can see from the linked match results that the person with the seizures being discussed appears to have shot and won ESP Expert.

jetfire
06-24-2014, 12:10 PM
On topic: can a mod please edit the title of this thread so it doesn't say "Caroline" Cup and actually says "Carolina Cup?" Because it's hurting my ****ing eyes every time I look at it.

orionz06
06-24-2014, 01:53 PM
On topic: can a mod please edit the title of this thread so it doesn't say "Caroline" Cup and actually says "Carolina Cup?" Because it's hurting my ****ing eyes every time I look at it.

You mean you don't keep having "Sweet Caroline" playing in your cranium? How about now?

Failure2Stop
06-24-2014, 03:52 PM
On topic: can a mod please edit the title of this thread so it doesn't say "Caroline" Cup and actually says "Carolina Cup?" Because it's hurting my ****ing eyes every time I look at it.

Seconded.

SteveK
06-24-2014, 05:49 PM
What do you guys have against Neil Diamond?

m91196
06-24-2014, 08:00 PM
That was the first thing I noticed. Also, no Shelby or Olhasso in CDP, no Vogel either.

Or Byerly or......

Is this shift an IDPA thing or a Frank thing or what is it?

cclaxton
06-24-2014, 08:05 PM
Or Byerly or......

Is this shift an IDPA thing or a Frank thing or what is it?
For Vogel, he had a Law Enforcement Training for real money.
For some others, there was a competing 3gun in NC. (Rob Tate and Ravin Perry, at least)
Not sure for others.
Cody

cclaxton
06-24-2014, 08:07 PM
Me and my shooting buddy Butch. These are of him shooting.
That is a Ringo Starr imitation at the end!

http://youtu.be/Rz4XIthih4s

jetfire
06-24-2014, 11:29 PM
Or Byerly or......

Is this shift an IDPA thing or a Frank thing or what is it?

If I had to bet money? A Frank thing.

chuck s
06-25-2014, 08:50 PM
I think it is more of an IDPA thing. The new rules fiasco has run quite a few top competitors away from the sport.

BN
06-25-2014, 09:01 PM
Is this shift an IDPA thing or a Frank thing or what is it?

The new rules are one of the reasons we didn't go. My opinion is that Frank puts on one of the most fair, evenly run matches of anyone. The PEs are called the same for everyone. Frank comes up with good stages that give the shooter an opportunity to take chances if they want. Risk and reward. It is my favorite sanctioned match. I have a couple of Cups on the shelf. :)

orionz06
06-25-2014, 09:14 PM
I think it is more of an IDPA thing. The new rules fiasco has run quite a few top competitors away from the sport.

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/shuki/popcorn/1z6aw77jpg.gif

cclaxton
06-25-2014, 09:42 PM
The new rules are one of the reasons we didn't go. My opinion is that Frank puts on one of the most fair, evenly run matches of anyone. The PEs are called the same for everyone. Frank comes up with good stages that give the shooter an opportunity to take chances if they want. Risk and reward. It is my favorite sanctioned match. I have a couple of Cups on the shelf. :)
I personally think Frank was daring IDPA HQ to disqualify some of his stages that he did the way he wanted. One stage required a weak hand only reload...a direct violation of the rule. You had to download mag to 6, shoot 2 in each target while retreating, then go to cover where you find your mags on a shelf. You drop the empty mag while still keeping your weak hand grip, then load the next mag, release the slide, and engage 3 more targets from cover. It was not weak hand only...it was weak hand and optiional weak hand supported. Then there was redefining P2 as being 6 feet wide so you could move during a reload.

What did HQ do?....Nothing. And, did anybody object to the stages?...No one. It was a fair match. Vogel and Byerly already have the Champion Trophies...multiples...maybe they are just out of shelf space?

Cody

Jared
06-26-2014, 06:19 AM
I don't understand why a MD would intentionally build stages that violate the rule book issued by the sanctioning body of the sport.

I'm not super up on IDPA rules and procedures, but if a competitor complained that the stage was illegal, and it did violate the rule book, would it get tossed after the fact?

m91196
06-26-2014, 06:30 AM
I personally think Frank was daring IDPA HQ to disqualify some of his stages that he did the way he wanted. One stage required a weak hand only reload...a direct violation of the rule. You had to download mag to 6, shoot 2 in each target while retreating, then go to cover where you find your mags on a shelf. You drop the empty mag while still keeping your weak hand grip, then load the next mag, release the slide, and engage 3 more targets from cover. It was not weak hand only...it was weak hand and optiional weak hand supported. Then there was redefining P2 as being 6 feet wide so you could move during a reload.

What did HQ do?....Nothing. And, did anybody object to the stages?...No one. It was a fair match. Vogel and Byerly already have the Champion Trophies...multiples...maybe they are just out of shelf space?

Cody

What do you think about the disregard for the rules?

Does that play into the softer field of competitors?

The event used to be #2 behind Nationals for quality of competition and stages.

It may have the stages.

m91196
06-26-2014, 06:36 AM
I don't understand why a MD would intentionally build stages that violate the rule book issued by the sanctioning body of the sport.

I'm not super up on IDPA rules and procedures, but if a competitor complained that the stage was illegal, and it did violate the rule book, would it get tossed after the fact?

When I worked for frank as an SO (4 times) he was never worried about more then a safe and fun match.

I don't see him burning the midnight oil publishing his stages on the IDPA web site 2 weeks before the match.

I think after the Nationals, at The Range, HQ and Frank must have had a vision difference. The story was the Nationals would be there for a couple years but that didn't happen. Also the same time he ended his run as the Indoor MD.

cclaxton
06-26-2014, 07:00 AM
I don't understand why a MD would intentionally build stages that violate the rule book issued by the sanctioning body of the sport.

I'm not super up on IDPA rules and procedures, but if a competitor complained that the stage was illegal, and it did violate the rule book, would it get tossed after the fact?
There is a difference between a stage that is UNFAIR and a stage that is FAIR but violated a rule. I shoot a lot of sanctioned matches and this happens all the time to a limited degree. Even last year's National's had a stage that violated the design rules. An Area Coordinator that I know said this, "It's impossible to write a set of rules for every possible situation," and "The match design rules are there to make sure nothing too extreme happens." Someone *could have* objected to the weak hand reload stage, but EVERYBODY wanted to shoot it and must have thought it was fair. I certainly did. We need to be challenged by something that puts us out of our comfort zone. We had a guy on our squad who is Grand Master and IDPA Master and he didn't object to it and he said, "That stage put me out of my comfort zone."

Also, stage design rules fall into a different category from shooting rules. Frank did not let anyone violate the shooting rules except P2 6 foot wide. I think there he was making a statement....the rule needs to be revised. All of the other stages required flat-footed reloads and they would give you bonus points if you violated it.

The fact that IDPA HQ didn't intervene leads me to believe that they may be moving towards a policy of giving more power to the MD's. I think that is a good idea, after all, the MD's are the ones who run the club matches and are the real backbone of IDPA. Without the MD's and the supporting clubs, IDPA will not thrive.

I think a bigger issue right now is the number of new shooters coming into IDPA who don't have safety fundamentals. I see WAY TOO MANY shooters putting their fingers in the trigger area while moving and reloading. I also see way too many people using their weak hand to assist holstering....if you cannot holster Strong Hand Only, you need to go home and dry fire practice that until you can do it every time. It sucks to hand out DQ's.
Cody

cclaxton
06-26-2014, 07:10 AM
What do you think about the disregard for the rules?

Does that play into the softer field of competitors?

The event used to be #2 behind Nationals for quality of competition and stages.

It may have the stages.
Top competitors didn't come for a variety of reasons, and I can't believe they would not show because of Franks' stretching the rules. (I gotta believe they will support him.) There are a number of top competitors who have won Division Championships at The Carolina Cup already, multiple trophies. Some are going heavy into 3Gun. Frank recognizes that and is hosting Tidewater 3Gun in August, and the T3G Matches are the most fun matches I have ever shot. There was a big 3gun event that weekend, so I know at least two who didn't do CCup because of that. Vogel has a money-making training (there is no trophy money for CCup). Vogel has won this many times, and I know of only one shooter who is good enough to beat him right now, at least in IDPA. (there may be others, I just don't know of them).

Can't wait for next year.
Cody

PPGMD
06-26-2014, 09:05 AM
The fact that IDPA HQ didn't intervene leads me to believe that they may be moving towards a policy of giving more power to the MD's. I think that is a good idea, after all, the MD's are the ones who run the club matches and are the real backbone of IDPA. Without the MD's and the supporting clubs, IDPA will not thrive.

Allowing the MDs to bend the rules as they see fit will only further hurt IDPA when it comes to the top level and other traveling competitors.

cclaxton
06-26-2014, 10:41 AM
I talked to two Masters about it at the Cup and neither objected to them. One said, "If Frank put it in the match, I am gonna shoot it." Also, I would not say that the MD's can do *anything* they want...just those things that are in the grey areas. I have shot enough USPSA matches to see that stages are sometimes "unorthodox," and violate a rule.
Cody

m91196
06-26-2014, 10:51 AM
I am a Master shooter(that's C class USPSA) and I think all matches should abide by the rules and if they don't like them then change 'em.

The mentioning of USPSA isn't really necessary but I would have to think long and hard the last time I shot a match that violated a rule in that sport, mostly because there are not lot to tangle you up in stage design.

NEPAKevin
06-26-2014, 12:11 PM
Sounds to me like Frank just found a hole in the rules and filled it. If there is a problem, next rule book will likely have a Tigerrific solution.

orionz06
06-26-2014, 12:13 PM
Sounds to me like Frank just found a hole in the rules and filled it. If there is a problem, next rule book will likely have a Tigerrific solution.

No doubt it will be all tiger'd up.

Mr_White
06-26-2014, 12:35 PM
Rawr!

I love tigers, leopards, and majestic and menacing cats in general.

Don't worry dog lovers, I love dogs too.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7436/9954820654_b97718b6aa_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/gaF4mS)leopard-attack (https://flic.kr/p/gaF4mS) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/people//), on Flickr

jetfire
06-26-2014, 12:54 PM
I don't understand why a MD would intentionally build stages that violate the rule book issued by the sanctioning body of the sport.

I'm not super up on IDPA rules and procedures, but if a competitor complained that the stage was illegal, and it did violate the rule book, would it get tossed after the fact?

The following is a rumor. The rumor from various sources is that Frank was not pleased with how the new rulebook turned out, and was underwhelmed with the response when he voiced his opinion.

That's just a rumor though.

PPGMD
06-26-2014, 02:31 PM
The mentioning of USPSA isn't really necessary but I would have to think long and hard the last time I shot a match that violated a rule in that sport, mostly because there are not lot to tangle you up in stage design.

Outside of club matches, it is pretty rare to see a stage that violates the rule book at a sanctioned match.

And if I see one at a club match before the match starts I will make a suggestion of how to fix it.


The following is a rumor. The rumor from various sources is that Frank was not pleased with how the new rulebook turned out, and was underwhelmed with the response when he voiced his opinion.

That's just a rumor though.

Frank doesn't donate enough money to dictate rules to IDPA HQ.

Just kidding, well sort of.

m91196
06-26-2014, 03:24 PM
Outside of club matches, it is pretty rare to see a stage that violates the rule book at a sanctioned match.

And if I see one at a club match before the match starts I will make a suggestion of how to fix it.



Frank doesn't donate enough money to dictate rules to IDPA HQ.

Just kidding, well sort of.


Yes yes and yes