This is the active shooter conundrum that's going on in my area of NJ right now...

[BaiHu]

If it wasn't so sad/scary, it would be laughable: http://villagegreennj.com/marshall-teachers-parent-angry-over-code-red-response/uncategorized/


She noted that this activation sent everyone in the school into a lockdown that was complicated by the fact that the alert took place during lunch and recess period with children on the playground and in the lunchroom, separated from teachers. When there was no police response, a teacher dialed the South Orange police via 9-1-1 on her mobile. When police arrived, Greenberg read, they seemed unaware of the protocols for a code red lockdown, whether real or accidental.

As it turned out, Greenberg noted, “[T]he emergency lockdown button was NOT connected to the South Orange Police Department and did not lock the doors from the outside as we had been told. We have since learned that despite the fact that the funds had been budgeted for the schools to be connected to the police departments, Bill Kyle and Cheryl Schneider were aware that this had not been done.”

The video isn't really worth watching. It's a complaint made by the teachers about how effed up this is, but it doesn't illuminate anything other than the collective lack of intelligence regarding the matter.

[Kyle Reese]

Sounds like a command & control / leadership problem to me. A bit of planning, coordination w/ LE and training could go a long way.

Best line in the article;


“Someone will be held accountable.”

I believe that when I see it.

[BaiHu]

Agreed. But how do you start something like this and not finish it properly? Seriously, a panic button to nowhere with no protocol?

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[RoyGBiv]

Agreed. But how do you start something like this and not finish it properly? Seriously, a panic button to nowhere with no protocol?

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Just following a well established government standard.

http://www.redstate.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Lavrov_and_Clinton_reset_relations-1.jpg

[Chuck Haggard]

This is my shocked face.

[Totem Polar]

I've got the same face on as Mr. Haggard.

Sounds like someone threw a "panic button" into the school as a placebo, and then forgot about it--either intentionally or in actuality.

[TAZ]

Wonder where the funds to implement the system ended up going?????

Welcome to government stupidity 101.

[RoyGBiv]

Wonder where the funds to implement the system ended up going?????

Welcome to government stupidity 101.
IBEW

[KevinB]

Wonder where the funds to implement the system ended up going?????

Welcome to government stupidity 101.


Do you really wonder, Or was this just a subtle musing ;)

[jnc36rcpd]

While there may be some value in having an alarm system that automatically locks doors, the whole thing seems like a placebo for teachers and parents. When the board of education is asked what they are doing to protect the children, they can point proudly to their panic button.

In the video (yes, I foolishly watched it), the teacher laments that the South Orange Police had only sent one two-officer cruiser and that the event was not treated like an actual active shooter. Of course, in an actual event, multiple calls would likely be received at the 911 center from teachers and students. If the board of education was sold on the panic button being especially useful, shame on them. The vast majority of alarm calls are false activations. I don't know why a school would be any different. Moreover, I have never run a valid robbery alarm when we did not receive calls reporting the robbery as we were enroute.

No one from the school thought that an active shooter might appear during lunch or recess and developed a plan for that? Don't they have lunch and recess daily?

I'm not sure which doors the panic alarm is supposed to lock. That said, the issue is not just what doors are unlocked, but which are already open or are opened after the alarm sounds.

As I said, the teacher seemed to want the police to do something else or something more in their response to a phone call reporting an alarm activation. I suspect she might be upset if the children were "traumatized" by multiple officers responding priority to the school, stacking up with long guns, and shotgun breaching the presumably locked front door.

There are apparently some legitimate alarm companies marketing this type of system. I think the school system dropped the ball on this one.

[Dave J]

So, what I got out of all of this is that the panic button worked just as well as the "No Guns Allowed" signs.

Hardly surprising.

[Alpha Sierra]

The sheeple amuse me. They live in a world I do not recognize.

[KevinB]

I'm honestly curious as to what is the best solution.

I for one would prefer not to live in a world where HESCO and TWalls are required, nor navigating a serpentine that is covered with multiple MG bunkers while entering a school, mainly as I don't think its good for the kids.

I'd much rather teachers get some training and carry - both lethal and LL means. I generally prefer the lo-pro approach.


Doors - an Active Shooter will ballistic breach anyway, so all the locked doors do, is buy time (and a double edged sword as it can buy time for the AS when the first patrol units roll up and have to get doors opened that shut after the AS.

To totally hi-jack the thread:
My biggest bitch about the whole Shelter in Place farce is your basically setting up a AS for a target rich environment in a small area immobile.

[BaiHu]

I like all of your comments and as a resident not too far from this school system, with a student who provided this link (whose children attended this school), I believe this all comes down to reality vs wish casting.

No one wants to believe it can happen to them. No one wants to prepare for what "can't happen to them". However, when reality rears it's ugly head in the direction of said people, they want an immediate, miraculous response. Lastly, the politics of this area, as described by a police friend of mine, is nothing short of a police state. Don't disturb the people from their fantasy of permanent safety.

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[hufnagel]

NJ sucks and they steal all the money they can.

[Chuck Haggard]

Ref "shelter in place", AKA lockdowns, they work when done at the classroom level, and done effectively. Otherwise they really don't so much.

[Totem Polar]

I'd much rather teachers get some training and carry - both lethal and LL means. I generally prefer the lo-pro approach.


It's pretty hard to argue with bare-faced logic.

But that doesn't mean that many, as exemplified in this news story, won't try.

[jnc36rcpd]

In my experience, most teachers don't have the mindset to use force, especially deadly force, against assailants. Some have responded with incredible bravery in active shooter events, but few will be willing to drop hammer against a bad guy.

[RoyGBiv]

In my experience, most teachers don't have the mindset to use force, especially deadly force, against assailants. Some have responded with incredible bravery in active shooter events, but few will be willing to drop hammer against a bad guy.

It doesn't require many.

[BaiHu]

It doesn't require many.
One would be a great start.

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[JodyH]

Columbine, Virginia Tech and Newtown don't scare me as much as Beslan.
Lockdown might limit the lone spree shooter to a classroom full of victims but turns the entire school over to a team.

[TAZ]

Columbine, Virginia Tech and Newtown don't scare me as much as Beslan.
Lockdown might limit the lone spree shooter to a classroom full of victims but turns the entire school over to a team.

A Beslan type event is pretty difficult to defend against, especially at the elementary school level; where a scatter to the 4 corners of the neighborhood is NOT a viable option to the shelter in place strategy.

IMO the key to these events is time. How do you generate time between the arrival of a threat on site, his/her identification and the subsequent employment of defensive actions. Given today's school designs, our focus on convenience and the incessant wandering of strangers in and out of school buildings on assorted activities this is a VERY difficult thing to implement.

You'd need to eliminate all the bloody volunteers that stream in and out of schools through out the day and have a truly controlled entry point or points that are monitored by people dedicated to the task. Not some PTA volunteer who is also making copies for little johny's teacher or some secretary who has her hands full with their regular admin duties. My sons school implemented remote locking doors this last year. You know the type. Press buzzer and state name and what not and then get let in. Problem is that once the gate is opened the whole school is now accessible. Gate is manned by a volunteer parent who has no way to verify anything and basically you get buzzed in.

[TAZ]

Hit button too soon... Durned iPhone with reply button just in the wrong spot.

Entry needs to be limited and verified. If you show up claiming that your jimmy johns dad coming to pick him up, there had better be a jimmy john student and your name better be on file as able to pick up.

On e entry is gained the visitors should be funneled toward another area where the staff verify ID and then they send for your kid. No need to have strangers roaming the halls looking for class XYZ EVER. This may get staff killed, but it puts numerous barriers between the bad guy and the kids.

The other thing is that we have designed the schools for convenience. Parking right up front with drop off and pick up lanes. No time to notice the guy with the rifle walking across the open area between the parking lot and the entry point. As soon as someone gets out of their car they can begin blasting away at vital targets.

The other thing we refuse to do is depart from a cookie cutter solution. What is appropriate for a 6 YO may not be the best thing for the 16 YO. Stop looking for the one size fits all thing and develop appropriate measures based on locations, layouts and maturity level. However, that would depart for the central control model to the allow local customization model that tends to send shivers up the spines of most politicians and their team of liability lawyers.

[Alpha Sierra]

Let's turn our schools into Supermaxes. Perfect safety.

[TAZ]

Let's turn our schools into Supermaxes. Perfect safety.

It's a balancing act between being safe and feeling safe. I went to a school that had a closed perimeter with limited to no parental access aside for dedicated events. I never felt like is was in a supermax facility or any prison facility for that matter. I knew that when I crossed the threshold it was business time and not fart around time. There was a reason why by third grade I was at JR High level in math and science. To be honest I never felt like I was in prison till I got into public schools in Houston. Having to sit will for hours on end with no breaks was torture.

The education issue aside, the question is what do you want to BE and what realistic threat level do you want to protect against. The I want kids to feel safe idiocy has no place in this.

We need to realistically evaluate the threat levels that we face and deal with them up front. Run, hide and pray is not dealing with any threat.

[KevinB]

I'd be a shit ton happier if the stupid Gun Free School Zones did not also apply to HR-218/LEOSA.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Turning every school into a fortress sounds great. So we do that - and the active shooter decides to hit the public library on story day. That becomes a fort?

Building the Maginot line didn't work. Setting up mini-Maginots at every school will fail in preventing rampages because just as the line was circumvented, other soft targets exist.

A reasonable measure set may be:

1. Allowing carry by reasonably competent folk in the schools. You can fight out how to determine that. Maybe it is whether you shoot IDPA or USPSA? That's a joke based on the Sunni-Shitte type competition discussion that rages.

2. See if we can increase prediction. Prediction stands the chance of generating rights violations with too many false positives but with rampagers - the data seems to indicate that the following might be useful:

a. Past history of violence
b. Making pretty specific threats (rampager planners who have been caught before the rampage are usually turned in. It is mostly by young girls or women. The young men are too stupid).
c. Worshipping and studying Cho, VT, Lanza, Holmes.
d. Having a hidden arsenal of weapons (guns, bombs). If it's hidden how do you know but if the other indicators light up - finding the cache is bad news.

I'd prefer to be able to carry than being locked down in a tight space waiting with my ninja I-Pad of death. That's what I told the TX House when I testified for campus carry for the TSRA.

[Shellback]

I'd be a shit ton happier if the stupid Gun Free School Zones did not also apply to HR-218/LEOSA.

Or other law-abiding citizens who're toting a CCW.

[KevinB]

Or other law-abiding citizens who're toting a CCW.

I can live with that too...

I know our Sheriff has told deputies they can drop kids off on the way to work in their take home cars -- but since they are not "on duty" yet...

[Shellback]

I can live with that too...

I know our Sheriff has told deputies they can drop kids off on the way to work in their take home cars -- but since they are not "on duty" yet...

I think most of us would agree that "gun-free zones" are anything but when it comes to criminals with bad intentions. In Utah students are permitted to carry concealed with a CCW permit and I can't recall hearing anything bad happening with any law-abiding person there.

I'm a vet, putting my GI money to work at our local university, and the president of the school here can grant permission for one to carry on campus. He's denied every single person who's applied, including several police officers attending classes. So, you're either a sitting duck or breaking the law...

[Le Français]

I can live with that too...

I know our Sheriff has told deputies they can drop kids off on the way to work in their take home cars -- but since they are not "on duty" yet...

As I understand it, if those deputies have permits to carry issued by the state that the school is located in, then the federal GFSZA doesn't prohibit them from carrying on or near the school grounds, provided the way the permit was issued complies with the requirements of the GFSZA. The same principle applies to anyone with a permit to carry from that state.

However, if you are carrying on school grounds or within 1000' of such and you are relying on the permit exception I just mentioned and you discharge your firearm for any reason (including otherwise-lawful self defense), then you've violated the GFSZA, which is a five-year felony.

Also, I think there is a distinction between LEOs who are "on-duty" and those acting in their "official capacity" (the latter is the language used in the GFSZA). If, as an LEO, you go to a school while on-duty, but for personal reasons (to drop something off, to talk to someone, etc), then you aren't really acting in your official capacity, are you? And, you'd be in violation for bringing your duty weapons into a school zone.

I suspect that many of the "pro-gun" people who say "We don't need more laws, we just need to enforce the ones we have" don't really understand just how bad the gun control laws we have actually are.

Here is a link to an interesting ATF letter on the topic:
http://www.wisconsincarry.org/media/8377/atf07252013gfsza__2_.pdf

And a link to a great piece on Modern Service Weapons:
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=8276

[RoyGBiv]

Missouri. Facing reality.

When It Comes To Preventing School Shootings, These Teachers Are Taking Matters Into Their Own Hands (http://www.ijreview.com/2014/06/150454-missouri-training-arming-teachers-like-air-marshals-thwart-school-shootings/)


“Gun-free zone” signs might seem nicer to the gun-control crowd, but they won’t stop a shooter. The school districts’ utilization of this training could save lives – and we applaud the volunteers and Missouri legislature who are making it happen.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASeBTvyBeYY

[KevinB]

It's a shambles...

Maybe I should volunteer my services a few hours a week at my sons school - right now I handcuff my pistol in my car.

[Shellback]

However, if you are carrying on school grounds or within 1000' of such and you are relying on the permit exception I just mentioned and you discharge your firearm for any reason (including otherwise-lawful self defense), then you've violated the GFSZA, which is a five-year felony.

Would that go to a jury? I wonder how well that'd play out in the public eye? If an "evil gun toter" just saved lil' Johnny and his classmates from a psycho hellbent on laying waste to a school full of kids, I imagine they could pull the sympathy card, but I'm not sure what that's worth.

Thanks for the links, good info.

[Shellback]

Missouri. Facing reality.

When It Comes To Preventing School Shootings, These Teachers Are Taking Matters Into Their Own Hands (http://www.ijreview.com/2014/06/150454-missouri-training-arming-teachers-like-air-marshals-thwart-school-shootings/)

Making it happen in Washington as well. ([URL="http://www.yakimaherald.com/home/2222040-8/toppenish-schools-will-have-armed-officials-this-fall)


When the new school year begins, some Toppenish School District administrators will be packing heat.

Under a policy approved earlier this year, school employees who receive training will be allowed to carry firearms on school property to provide an additional layer of security at the school. So far, 11 administrators, including Superintendent John Cerna, have volunteered to respond to a school shooting with their own weapons...

Staff has not yet started carrying weapons due to the time it took to get training, as well as waiting for the arrival of bullet-resistant vests, which will be made available to those trained to carry weapons, Cerna said...

[Chuck Whitlock]

Here is a link to an interesting ATF letter on the topic:
http://www.wisconsincarry.org/media/8377/atf07252013gfsza__2_.pdf

And a link to a great piece on Modern Service Weapons:
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=8276

Thanks for the links, particularly the MSW one. I was aware that the original was declared unconstitutional, but not of a version 2.0.


I wonder how this jives with Texas statutes, particularly the wording in PC 46.15(a)(1):

Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.

(a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:

(1) peace officers or special investigators under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, and neither section prohibits a peace officer or special investigator from carrying a weapon in this state, including in an establishment in this state serving the public, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator is engaged in the actual discharge of the officer's or investigator's duties while carrying the weapon;


link:
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm#46.15

[psalms144.1]

To totally hi-jack the thread:
My biggest bitch about the whole Shelter in Place farce is your basically setting up a AS for a target rich environment in a small area immobile.Kevin - we must be related. I'm an Active Threat Response instructor for my agency, and I tell my kids, in the event of an AS event - to get the KITTEN out of the school by any means necessary - and keep running until they are (a) stopped by a uniformed police officer, or (b) reach our house (luckily only about .5 miles from the school). I think Shelter in Place just puts a bunch of easy to hit, unmoving targets in a confined area - and think it's criminally negligent to teach it.

Rant mode off (for now!)

[RoyGBiv]

You’ll Never Believe How Deranged Anti-Gunners Are When It Comes to Protecting Our Kids From Mass Shooters (http://bearingarms.com/youll-never-believe-deranged-anti-gunners-comes-protecting-kids-mass-shooters/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=fbpage&utm_campaign=baupdate)

Purdue University Homeland Security Institute: Guns In Schools Save Lives (http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2014/05/purdue-university-homeland-security.html)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmH7rigZ_FE

[Shellback]

Missouri governor vetoes bill allowing teachers to carry after receiving training. (http://www.therolladailynews.com/article/20140714/NEWS/140719471/-1/sports)

Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon vetoed legislation Monday that would have allowed specially trained teachers to carry concealed guns, asserting that the move could have jeopardized student safety in public schools...

"Arming teachers will not make our schools safer," he said. "I have supported and will continue to support the use of duly authorized law enforcement officers employed as school resource officers, but I cannot condone putting firearms in the hands of educators who should be focused on teaching our kids."

The Missouri legislation called for allowing public school districts to designate certain teachers or administrators as "school protection officers," who would undergo special training to carry concealed weapons.

Supporters contend that armed school personnel could save students' lives by responding to an attacker without waiting precious minutes for police to arrive...

The Missouri legislation also lowered the minimum age required to get a concealed weapons permit to 19 from 21 and allows permit holders to carry guns openly, even in cities that ban open carry. In addition, health care professionals could not be required to ask whether a patient has access to guns, and public housing authorities could not ban tenants from possessing firearms.

[Totem Polar]

Missouri governor vetoes bill allowing teachers to carry after receiving training. (http://www.therolladailynews.com/article/20140714/NEWS/140719471/-1/sports)
"Arming teachers will not make our schools safer," he said. "I have supported and will continue to support the use of duly authorized law enforcement officers employed as school resource officers, but I cannot condone putting firearms in the hands of educators who should be focused on teaching our kids."

Maybe he should have read the article first; described therein is the 40-hour, plus qualification with shoot/no shoot decision making, course that probably exceeds the average "duly authorized school resource officers'" level of firearms training.

Ignorant statist acting out.

[hufnagel]

I suspect that level of training might exceed that which some PD's give their people.

[Le Français]

[i]
Maybe he should have read the article first; described therein is the 40-hour, plus qualification with shoot/no shoot decision making, course that probably exceeds the average "duly authorized school resource officers'" level of firearms training.

I doubt it. The academy where I was trained put a lot of emphasis on force-on-force and shoot/no shoot training, in addition to range training. In total, it was much more than forty hours. Of course, different areas have different standards.

ETA: This is not meant to suggest that I think the training you are referring to is insufficient.

[ragnar_d]

Wonder where the funds to implement the system ended up going?????

Welcome to government stupidity 101.
After watching The Cartel, I'm guessing it went to pay off some an Administrator's or Union Rep's new MB or BMW.