Cheating Scandal in USPSA

[Sal Picante]

Wow. Read the article: http://www.gunssavelife.com/?p=12564

...He’s a retired cop who apparently has problems with honesty, integrity and ethics in his role as an official at USPSA events.

He’s a Shoot Officer or whatever they call it at USPSA and has been reporting incorrect times, it seems, for shooters he’s running through. He cuts time for people he likes, and adds time for people he doesn’t.

Nice guy, eh?

Proof?

Get your stopwatch/smart phone out and set it to timer mode. Watch this YouTube video and compare the times you have with the times on the video. They don’t match, do they? They’re usually off by almost exactly whole seconds, aren’t they? Here it is.

[JodyH]

Large matches should have the big remote scoreboards that show the times to everyone.

[PPGMD]

Large matches should have the big remote scoreboards that show the times to everyone.

Those aren't very reliable, particularly on field courses.

Honestly the way to deal with it, is the RO calls the score out and holds the timer for the score person to see. It isn't fool proof, but it requires more than one person involved to cheat the system.

[JodyH]

A simple finger tap on the microphone will add a second or two without being obvious to any observers.
It's 2014.
Shot timers with remote viewing could be made reliable if there was a big push for them.

[Chris Rhines]

Shot timers with remote viewing could be made reliable if there was a big push for them.
No doubt, but can they be made reliable cheaply enough that club matches will use them? You know as well as I do, most USPSA matches are run on a shoestring as it is.

[LittleLebowski]

http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/06/18/range-officer-cheating-scandal-in-united-states-practical-shooting-association/

Caleb summed it up well.

[EMC]

It's pretty sad that there has to be a technical solution to ethical problems.

[NEPAKevin]

The doodie is hittin' the fan.

[JodyH]

When I RO, immediately after the shooter fires his last shot I hold the timer behind me with the display towards the scorer. This keeps the slide down/hammer down from registering as a shot and the scorer gets to view the time often before I even see it. I then view and call the time and the scorer calls it back to me as they write it down.
This has two sets of eyes on the timer and verbal verification to minimize mistakes (and cheating).

[Odin Bravo One]

I have cheated at every IDPA match I have ever participated in. (Both of them, that is). My retention holster was short 3/4" of plastic on the front, and I used it anyway.

[LittleLebowski]

I have cheated at every IDPA match I have ever participated in. (Both of them, that is). My retention holster was short 3/4" of plastic on the front, and I used it anyway.

The important part is that you learned about tactical shooting at the match :D

[orionz06]

I just shaved 3 seconds off my El Pres by switching to the Paul Hendrix system.

[Mr_White]

The important part is that you learned about tactical shooting at the match :D

Just tell Sean not to bring that headlamp he was talking about in another thread. They don't want an equipment race in IDPA.

But back on topic:

This cheating thing is pretty lame. Now everyone bought up all the Shotmaxx timers. Since those are all gone, I will have to get one of those calculator wristwatches to ensure my score is correct. I will make sure I do some calculations on it before signing my score sheet from now on.

[LittleLebowski]

I will have to get one of those calculator wristwatches to ensure my score is correct. I will make sure I do some calculations on it before signing my score sheet from now on.


Moar 80's. WIN/WIN.

[orionz06]

Just tell Sean not to bring that headlamp he was talking about in another thread. They don't want an equipment race in IDPA.

But back on topic:

This cheating thing is pretty lame. Now everyone bought up all the Shotmaxx timers. Since those are all gone, I will have to get one of those calculator wristwatches to ensure my score is correct. I will make sure I do some calculations on it before signing my score sheet from now on.

Carry a calculator in your vest pocket.

[Odin Bravo One]

Just tell Sean not to bring that headlamp he was talking about in another thread. They don't want an equipment race in IDPA.



Indeed...........

[JMS]

I just shaved 3 seconds off my El Pres by switching to the Paul Hendrix system.

I started using the PH system, and saw results immediately! -- a real customer, not a paid actor

[TCinVA]

I just shaved 3 seconds off my El Pres by switching to the Paul Hendrix system.

I shot the FAST clean in 2.3 seconds! Thanks Paul Hendrix!

[PPGMD]

Now it has been meme'd:
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u125/tmb555555/billion.jpg

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/51317738.jpg

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/51323477.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/19/upunyvyv.jpg

[cclaxton]

When I RO, immediately after the shooter fires his last shot I hold the timer behind me with the display towards the scorer. This keeps the slide down/hammer down from registering as a shot and the scorer gets to view the time often before I even see it. I then view and call the time and the scorer calls it back to me as they write it down.
This has two sets of eyes on the timer and verbal verification to minimize mistakes (and cheating).
I use exactly the same procedure. Sometimes I will look to make sure all the shots got registered if the timer got too far away from the shooter at the end.
Cody

[cclaxton]

Those aren't very reliable, particularly on field courses.

Honestly the way to deal with it, is the RO calls the score out and holds the timer for the score person to see. It isn't fool proof, but it requires more than one person involved to cheat the system.
I would find it suspicious if the SO/RO didn't show me the timer to confirm.
Cody

[PPGMD]

I would find it suspicious if the SO/RO didn't show me the timer to confirm.

I've never seen the timer, nor ask for it. I've always just trusted the ROs. *shrugs* It seems like a a pretty objective measurement as long as it is written down correctly. Of course this RO is making me rethink that.

Now I always follow the RO around for the scoring, as there is room for subjectively in that an RO deciding if it is worth breaking out the overlay. But that is pretty rare since I shoot mostly alphas.

Perhaps the NRA's method of using non-competing ROs is the best, but then again he wasn't changing his score. Only the scores of his friends, how do you prevent the ROs from making friends?

[GJM]

There is some funny stuffy out there in the interwebz. My favorite, with appropriate picture, is "if you like your time, you can keep it."

[TheTrevor]

All of the experienced ROs at my club set a good example both calling out the time and showing the timer to the ARO/scorekeeper and whomever is following the shooter with a camera. Now more than ever I see the merits in how they've done that.

I still wonder why we're depending on the RO for the delay between Stand By and the beep. IMHO it should be 2 seconds +/- 0.5 seconds, randomized. That's another area that seems ripe for the RO to mess with the shooter's head.

[LSP972]

So, what are "they" (USPSA directors, etc.) gonna DO with this guy? The evidence seems pretty conclusive.

While not a serious competitor, I've been to enough USPSA events to have a good idea about the sport. Of all the potential problems that could occur at a match, I gotta say this is the LAST one I would have imagined.

Simply amazing…

.

[cclaxton]

Heresay: I was talking to a USPSA RO yesterday and he said they are going with a lifetime ban from USPSA. That sounds kinda severe to me, but he should never run a timer or keep score again or be involved in officiating any events.
Cody

[Byron]

...lifetime ban from USPSA. That sounds kinda severe to me, but he should never run a timer or keep score again or be involved in officiating any events.
If you had sole authority to make the decision, what sentence would you hand down?

Personally, I don't think a lifetime ban is at all severe, given the totality of the evidence.

Curious to hear why you think he should still be allowed to participate in a sport that he rigged for years. His deliberate actions were directly responsible for changing match outcomes for numerous competitors.

Would you ever shoot next to a man who had doctored your time the previous year, altering your match ranking(s)?



Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

[Sheep Have Wool]

Heresay: I was talking to a USPSA RO yesterday and he said they are going with a lifetime ban from USPSA. That sounds kinda severe to me, but he should never run a timer or keep score again or be involved in officiating any events.
Cody

I don't shoot USPSA, but if this isn't a lifetime ban offense, what is? He's made a mockery of numerous events, calling all the results into question. Obviously he can't be allowed to RO again, but what do you think will happen if this guy shows up to shoot? Best for the sport to wave bye.

[JAD]

I just re-upped my uspsa membership. This incident didn't make me regret that, but the way uspsa is handling it makes me happy.

[cclaxton]

If you had sole authority to make the decision, what sentence would you hand down?
Personally, I don't think a lifetime ban is at all severe, given the totality of the evidence.
Curious to hear why you think he should still be allowed to participate in a sport that he rigged for years. His deliberate actions were directly responsible for changing match outcomes for numerous competitors.
Would you ever shoot next to a man who had doctored your time the previous year, altering your match ranking(s)?
Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk
Lifetime ban on running a timer, keeping score or officiating. 2 year ban on participating in USPSA.
Emotions are running high right now, and it is usually the worse time to make a decision on punishment.

Our American society is stronger when we apologize for our offenses, pay the consequences and be given forgiveness. The consequence should fit the offense.

In this case it wasn't his participation in shooting, but it was his role as RO. Sure, I might be mad at him for negatively altering my score, but let's put this into context: The impact on individual shooters was minimal. Unless you had this RO more than 50% of the time and he consistently downgraded your time, the law of averages are still in your favor. I just don't see the argument for how badly it affected a particular shooter and more importantly, whether any financial injury occurred. Bragging rights might have been affected, but frankly not much value in that. Whether a club wants to allow him to shoot after 2 years (in my judgement) is up to them and to the shooters at his club or clubs. If he came and shot on a squad at Quantico with me, I could care less as long as he doesn't run the timer or write the scores down.

USPSA has a much stronger case to make that it affected the good reputation of the organization and, could potentially sue for damages to their reputation. That has a cost-benefit analysis as well, and probably doesn't pay to sue unless the guy is rich.

I don't have a dog in this fight, so...whatever.
Cody

[GardoneVT]

Lifetime ban on running a timer, keeping score or officiating. 2 year ban on participating in USPSA.
Emotions are running high right now, and it is usually the worse time to make a decision on punishment.

Our American society is stronger when we apologize for our offenses, pay the consequences and be given forgiveness. The consequence should fit the offense.

In this case it wasn't his participation in shooting, but it was his role as RO. Sure, I might be mad at him for negatively altering my score, but let's put this into context: The impact on individual shooters was minimal. Unless you had this RO more than 50% of the time and he consistently downgraded your time, the law of averages are still in your favor. I just don't see the argument for how badly it affected a particular shooter and more importantly, whether any financial injury occurred. Bragging rights might have been affected, but frankly not much value in that.

USPSA has a much stronger case to make that it affected the good reputation of the organization and, could potentially sue for damages to their reputation. That has a cost-benefit analysis as well, and probably doesn't pay to sue unless the guy is rich.

I don't have a dog in this fight, so...whatever.
Cody

The appropriate consequence is a lifetime ban.

This accomplishes two things . One, it shows that the USPSA management won't tolerate crooked BS. Don't think for a second this guy was the only one "cooking the books" with his shot timer. While I won't dare claim score cheating is a league epidemic, this sends a signal to the rest of the rats to cut the crap now or else.

Two, the credibility of USPSA itself is on the line. If they soft pedal this , what does that say to the competitors who were affected by this guys ethical failures? I'd hate to be a shooter who went home sour because he shot a poor match, only to realize later it was tainted by some cheater who mucked with his time. On the flip side, I'd also hate to be the guy who benefited from the cheating either. How many folks are holding titles they unknowingly possess via fraud?

Forgiveness has its place. This isn't it. The guys done too much damage to the league and to the careers of multiple competitors for that to be an option. If he'd embezzled money from the organization he'd be banned without a second thought-and he's really done something worse then appropriate money. He's cast doubt on the abilities of every shooter he's ever ROd.

[LittleLebowski]

There is some funny stuffy out there in the interwebz. My favorite, with appropriate picture, is "if you like your time, you can keep it."

Send me that one.

[littlejerry]

The appropriate consequence is a lifetime ban.

This accomplishes two things . One, it shows that the USPSA management won't tolerate crooked BS. Don't think for a second this guy was the only one "cooking the books" with his shot timer. While I won't dare claim score cheating is a league epidemic, this sends a signal to the rest of the rats to cut the crap now or else.

Two, the credibility of USPSA itself is on the line. If they soft pedal this , what does that say to the competitors who were affected by this guys ethical failures? I'd hate to be a shooter who went home sour because he shot a poor match, only to realize later it was tainted by some cheater who mucked with his time. On the flip side, I'd also hate to be the guy who benefited from the cheating either. How many folks are holding titles they unknowingly possess via fraud?

Forgiveness has its place. This isn't it. The guys done too much damage to the league and to the careers of multiple competitors for that to be an option. If he'd embezzled money from the organization he'd be banned without a second thought-and he's really done something worse then appropriate money. He's cast doubt on the abilities of every shooter he's ever ROd.

Agree 100%. This wasn't an error someone made while scoring a match. This was years of intentional deceipt.

[TCinVA]

Emotions are running high right now, and it is usually the worse time to make a decision on punishment.


Alternately one could look at a pattern of dishonest behavior that has occurred over an extended period of time and conclude that the person(s) engaging in it have given evidence of severe deficiencies in character and personality that make them unworthy of membership.

...because bad people never really stop being bad people.

[GJM]

1) lifetime ban seems the minimum.

2) if he were an FAA examiner, all ratings obtained on check rides he administered would be revoked, and required to be retested. This actually happened with an examiner in Arizona. Wonder if USPSA notes the RO in the classifier data base and could easily pull classifiers? Assuming PH classifiers weren't inflated, it shouldn't hurt anyone's classification.

3) can he time and score my next two FAST runs.

4) if he were a high official in the Obama administration, they would do nothing or at worse, make him shoot Limited 10 using 10 round, neutered Glock magazines.

[Odin Bravo One]

Lifetime ban is perfectly appropriate.

Not that I would shoot a match anyway, but he sure as shit is not going to help recruit new members, has obviously alienated all but a very few current members, and has created a giant shit streak stain down USPSA's drawers...... oh, as well as the "Right wing nutjob gunowners are all cheaters and liars" speech that this has already generated.

Fuck him.

And everyone who acts like him.

I hope every range, gun store, or firearm related location, activity, or event within 200 miles bans him too.

[PPGMD]

Heresay: I was talking to a USPSA RO yesterday and he said they are going with a lifetime ban from USPSA. That sounds kinda severe to me, but he should never run a timer or keep score again or be involved in officiating any events.

No it isn't very severe, until this guy did it I never thought an RO would screw over a shooter like that. Reducing the time of people you like is one thing, but increasing the time of other shooters is a whole other thing and is much worse IMO.

Anyways under the USPSA rules it takes a minimum of 7 days to convene a meeting of the BOD.

First they need to issue a press release detailing the process of how they are going to proceed.

My suggestion:
I would do that meeting and suspend him from all shooting and ROing for a period of six months (this is important as we have a World and National IPSC match in Area 6 during the fall) so they can compile the evidence and have it professionally examined.

After the evidence is examined give Paul and anyone else accused of wrong doing a chance to view it, and convene a BOD meeting with Paul and anyone else accused to wrong doing. Allow them to give a statement. And issue the appropriate punishments. I think a lifetime ban from USPSA is appropriate for Paul if the evidence is found to be true.

Next step would be for the NROI to take suggestions on how to prevent this in the future, draw up a draft of the changes and present it to the BOD. After they are approved they are released as suggestion until they become binding per the USPSA bylaws (it takes at least a year after the new rules are published before they become binding).

[Stephen]

4) if he were a high official in the Obama administration, they would do nothing or at worse, make him shoot Limited 10 using 10 round, neutered Glock magazines.

In that case, it would be Bush's fault and you'd be a racist for bringing it up.

I don't think they have any option but lifetime ban, for reasons already mentioned. If nothing else than for the reputation of the sport.

[PPGMD]

Well Caleb posted an update, PH's RO creds have been suspended, and Chuck Anderson is in charge of the investigation.

Though USPSA hasn't posted a thing about this anywhere I can see. Unless it is in the USPSA forum.

Someone needs to check to make sure PH isn't scheduled to RO the IPSC World Shoot.

[ford.304]

So, the next question: if he shows up to your local IDPA match, do you let him shoot?

I'm fine with a lifetime ban. It's not like you're sending him to jail. But he should be cut off from the USPSA organization. He can still go to the range all he wants and blast targets.

If this were a one-time thing, or at local matches, I'd say that was severe. But it seems like he's been doing it for years at major matches. That's a big kittening deal.

[NEPAKevin]

I don't think there is just cause to condemn USPSA, or any other shooting sport that relies to some extent on the honor system, as so far this is about just one guy playing on the trust of a community consisting of vastly sportsmanlike if ball busting individuals. OTOH, at the level of professional shooters, rigging the scores could effect everything from cash payouts to sponsorship potential and might be more than just ethical wrong doing. The real shame is smear on all the good guys who have done their best to fairly referee over the years and with out whose efforts there would be no shooting sports.

[jetfire]

Well Caleb posted an update, PH's RO creds have been suspended, and Chuck Anderson is in charge of the investigation.

Though USPSA hasn't posted a thing about this anywhere I can see. Unless it is in the USPSA forum.

Someone needs to check to make sure PH isn't scheduled to RO the IPSC World Shoot.

USPSA won't issue a public statement until their internal investigation is concluded. As I noted, it takes a minimum of 7 days according to USPSA bylaws to even convene a BoD meeting, which will likely then move to Exec Session anyway, so no one will ever know what's discussed.

[PPGMD]

USPSA won't issue a public statement until their internal investigation is concluded. As I noted, it takes a minimum of 7 days according to USPSA bylaws to even convene a BoD meeting, which will likely then move to Exec Session anyway, so no one will ever know what's discussed.

A public "We are looking into it" statement would be nice.

I would prefer something more formal for something this major.

[Chuck Whitlock]

If this is true, then Doom on him.

But, just to play devil's advocate and use a little Hanlon's razor, could these instances be explained by a faulty timer? Is the calibration checked every so often or something? How does one know that their shot timer is GTG?

[JHC]

1) 3) can he time and score my next two FAST runs.

.

If he takes a dislike to you, he'll ADD time. Just sayin' ;)

[Sheep Have Wool]

If this is true, then Doom on him.

But, just to play devil's advocate and use a little Hanlon's razor, could these instances be explained by a faulty timer? Is the calibration checked every so often or something?

Once again, I don't shoot USPSA, nor any other shooting sport. But it seems odd that his timer would consistently malfunction in a way that helps his friends and damages other shooters. I also feel that the lifetime ban is completely appropriate after the BoD has completed its investigation.

And just because memes are fun to make:
http://i.imgur.com/zRxQSQe.jpg

[Byron]

Our American society is stronger when we apologize for our offenses, pay the consequences and be given forgiveness. The consequence should fit the offense.
No one's trying to lock the guy up. Rather, an organization must decide whether they want a person to continue participating in said organization.

In your past defense of the IDPA, you've had this to say:

People will find fault with ANY sport, from football to Olympic shooting. But good sportsmanship is universal to every one. The playing field should be fair and clear of distractions and diversions and inappropriate behavior.
I think a man who engaged in years of systematic cheating is the complete opposite of a good sportsman. The playing field should be fair and clear of him, regardless of whether he's actually scoring people. Or does the playing field only need to be clear of dirty words, while dirty men are OK?

Your proposed solution is:

Lifetime ban on running a timer, keeping score or officiating. 2 year ban on participating in USPSA.
Where did you come up with a figure of 2 years?

In all major sports that I can think of, consequences tend to cover a longer timeline than the offense. For example, leagues frequently bench players, sometimes games (or seasons) at a time, based on acute incidents of unsportsmanlike conduct.

So far, there is evidence of at least 4 years worth of cheating. You are proposing that his participation ban be shorter than the amount of time that he's actively been screwing over the sport.

[Byron]

...could these instances be explained by a faulty timer?
Not if you watch enough of the videos. There are easily identifiable patterns of certain people getting a break, with others getting screwed. There's also a pattern of these doctored scores never being shown to anyone else: just yelled out. If it were the timer's fault, there should be plenty of footage of other people confirming the values that he screams out.


Is the calibration checked every so often or something? How does one know that their shot timer is GTG?
If we were talking about 0.01 differences, that might be under consideration, though this issue would never have been raised were that the case. Some videos show differences of 3 seconds: noticeable with even the crappiest stopwatch, and completely beyond any realistic argument about poor calibration.

[Mr_White]

Lifetime ban on running a timer, keeping score or officiating. 2 year ban on participating in USPSA.
Emotions are running high right now, and it is usually the worse time to make a decision on punishment.

Our American society is stronger when we apologize for our offenses, pay the consequences and be given forgiveness. The consequence should fit the offense.

In this case it wasn't his participation in shooting, but it was his role as RO. Sure, I might be mad at him for negatively altering my score, but let's put this into context: The impact on individual shooters was minimal. Unless you had this RO more than 50% of the time and he consistently downgraded your time, the law of averages are still in your favor. I just don't see the argument for how badly it affected a particular shooter and more importantly, whether any financial injury occurred. Bragging rights might have been affected, but frankly not much value in that. Whether a club wants to allow him to shoot after 2 years (in my judgement) is up to them and to the shooters at his club or clubs. If he came and shot on a squad at Quantico with me, I could care less as long as he doesn't run the timer or write the scores down.

USPSA has a much stronger case to make that it affected the good reputation of the organization and, could potentially sue for damages to their reputation. That has a cost-benefit analysis as well, and probably doesn't pay to sue unless the guy is rich.

I don't have a dog in this fight, so...whatever.
Cody


The evidence is extensive and quite clear.

This guy has undermined the integrity of a basic part of the entire sport, the other shooting sports, and has effectively cast at least a little suspicion on ROs in general (Shotmaxx timers = sold out) and also on the shooters he 'helped', many of whom were surely unaware of it.

Lifetime ban from any participation whatsoever should be minimum, though I'm not sure what can be done beyond that. Maybe someone has standing to sue him. I would want any other shooting sports to ban him too.

I am confident in Chuck heading up the investigation for USPSA BOD. At the end of all of this, if BOD fails to deliver a lifetime ban, I hope the membership delivers it by categorically refusing to shoot with him, RO him, or be RO'd by him.

[John Hearne]

In addition to the desire for the Shotmaxx, it seems like the time is ripe for the "Official" timer to send a start signal to the Shotmaxx so that everything is synched.

[Mr_White]

I predict that the custom of the RO, the scorekeeper, and the shooter all actually looking at the timer will be further cemented than it already is.

I'm sure there are endless ways for a truly dishonest RO to screw the shooter. I don't *think* there is a lot of problem with this kind of stuff, and I sure hope I am not wrong about that.

I will pay a little more attention and not be afraid to ask to review the time in detail if something seems wrong. Otherwise, I am probably not going to get a Shotmaxx or do anything else differently. I can't let this crap get in the way of running stages and shooting As. That's what I need to concentrate on.

[Chuck Whitlock]

But it seems odd that his timer would consistently malfunction in a way that helps his friends and damages other shooters.


There are easily identifiable patterns of certain people getting a break, with others getting screwed. There's also a pattern of these doctored scores never being shown to anyone else: just yelled out. If it were the timer's fault, there should be plenty of footage of other people confirming the values that he screams out.

I guess I didn't flesh the thought out enough....Even faulty equipment doesn't do so selectively.

[TAZ]

Seems like a firmware fix to the Shotmaxx or any other timer capable of a spy mode to begin the clock with the beeeeep of the official timer could give the scorekeeper and shooter a back up.

I agree with Origami. Cement the concept of showing the timer to score keeper and shooter to minimize cheating. Never going to fully eliminate it as someone somewhere will figure out a work around, but you can minimize it.

This dirt bag needs a formal lifetime ban from USPSA. The rest of the shooting sports should also shun his sorry self as well. We already have enough enemies. No need to keep internal ones around as well.

[GardoneVT]

I predict that the custom of the RO, the scorekeeper, and the shooter all actually looking at the timer will be further cemented than it already is.

I'm sure there are endless ways for a truly dishonest RO to screw the shooter. I don't *think* there is a lot of problem with this kind of stuff, and I sure hope I am not wrong about that.

I will pay a little more attention and not be afraid to ask to review the time in detail if something seems wrong. Otherwise, I am probably not going to get a Shotmaxx or do anything else differently. I can't let this crap get in the way of running stages and shooting As. That's what I need to concentrate on.

The next scam will be shooters collaborating with ROs to game the stats, if they haven't already.

[TCinVA]

I predict that the custom of the RO, the scorekeeper, and the shooter all actually looking at the timer will be further cemented than it already is.

I'm sure there are endless ways for a truly dishonest RO to screw the shooter. I don't *think* there is a lot of problem with this kind of stuff, and I sure hope I am not wrong about that.

I will pay a little more attention and not be afraid to ask to review the time in detail if something seems wrong. Otherwise, I am probably not going to get a Shotmaxx or do anything else differently. I can't let this crap get in the way of running stages and shooting As. That's what I need to concentrate on.

The competition shooting community is pretty small, so I'd guess that the vast majority of honest RO's will be taking extra measures to make sure the competitor sees the screen from now on.

[orionz06]

Expect a lot more cameras.

[Spr1]

A lifetime ban is totally appropriate. Cheating is incredibly toxic to a sport/participant activity like USPSA.

There was a club in a neighboring state that in the 90's had 80-90 people at each monthly match. A few years later it had 30 or so participants. I suspect for the reason I stopped going.... A well developed good old boys club had risen there and the RO's would give their friends reshoots, invent doubles, mess with the timer starts for people not in the inner circle, etc.

[Slavex]

Expect a scoring app for tablets and smart phones that logs changes in a history file, expect later on a scorring app that synchs properly to a time (wifi, or faster Blutooth) so that all the info on a run is carried over into the scoring, so that when you synch your phone to the scoring system you'll have all your times, including first shot and all the splits too. That's the future I'm waiting for.

[PPGMD]

As I've mentioned I would've preferred something posted on the USPSA facebook to the effect of "Yes we know about it, and we will figure out what to do," as soon as they heard about it.

But I am satisfied with their final response.

[rob_s]

As I've mentioned I would've preferred something posted on the USPSA facebook to the effect of "Yes we know about it, and we will figure out what to do," as soon as they heard about it.

But I am satisfied with their final response.

Which was?

[PPGMD]

Which was?

Phil had a letter put on Facebook announcing it, but banned for life.

[orionz06]

What's interesting is how some of the dudes are trying to get people to move on with it and essentially forget.

Comparing it to the NFL and the Pats folks haven't forgotten that, even if that has been blown way outta proportion. This is not, it clear cut.

[rob_s]

Phil had a letter put on Facebook announcing it, but banned for life.

When? I don't see it. Unless I'm on the wrong page.

[jetfire]

When? I don't see it. Unless I'm on the wrong page.

Probably. It wasn't posted on the main USPSA page. It seems like USPSA hasn't wanted to call attention to this or let their membership know what's going on.

http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/06/27/letter-from-uspsa-president-phil-strader-on-the-paul-hendrix-cheating-scandal/

[PPGMD]

What's interesting is how some of the dudes are trying to get people to move on with it and essentially forget.

Comparing it to the NFL and the Pats folks haven't forgotten that, even if that has been blown way outta proportion. This is not, it clear cut.

I think we need to watch for this in the future, but the person directly responsible has been dealt with. This isn't a temporary measure a lifetime ban. If the NFL did the same there would be no questions either.

[dbateman]

A lifetime ban is totally appropriate. Cheating is incredibly toxic to a sport/participant activity like USPSA.

There was a club in a neighboring state that in the 90's had 80-90 people at each monthly match. A few years later it had 30 or so participants. I suspect for the reason I stopped going.... A well developed good old boys club had risen there and the RO's would give their friends reshoots, invent doubles, mess with the timer starts for people not in the inner circle, etc.

For the most part I have found shooters not that incline to try and cheat. It seems we want to beat each other fair and square.
I've also found my fellow shooters to be incredibly helpful in sharing info IE how they think they are going to shoot the stage/match, reloading, gun set up ect.

I have run into people who don't want to help other shooters or talk about the hows and why of what they do, but I tend to find those people aren't in the winners circle.

It seems that at the top there are no secrets the only thing separating the people in the top 10% is ability ?

I did shoot a club for a while like the one you mention where there was a bit of an "old boys club" certain people would decide they did not like their score so they got to re shoot the whole match. It soured me on that club very quickly.

I think a lifetime ban is a fitting punishment.