PDA

View Full Version : Steel Targets, Safe Distance?



johnnyyukon
06-17-2014, 05:45 PM
Ok so the targets I'm looking to purchase are like these around the 35:00 mark:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSjteA_jQ1M&list=PL2079FFD4A567CD2C&index=20

Are those steel? I want the "Ping!" sound. A lot of retailers say 100 yards minimum. I'm fairly certain Dave Spalding is closer than 100 yards in the video.

What kind of ammo/caliber is he using? What kind of metal do you think the bullets are? I couldn't tell. I'm guessing the fact that they fall down helps the safety factor? I mean, obviously protective eyewear is a must.

I don't know anything about steel targets. They sell them here (and other places) at a reasonable price and I was looking at the 3/8"

https://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=100000205&dir=1020|1023

My friends and I mostly use 9mm handguns with some .45s every once in a while. I also have a .357 Magnum.

Help a noob out?

Maybe steel isn't what I'm looking for if I want to be within 10-15 yards. I still like that ping sound. Helps me recognize a hit.

ST911
06-17-2014, 05:59 PM
Excellent resources from Action Target (http://www.actiontarget.com/)

Shooting Steel Targets, Pt1
http://www.actiontarget.com/shooting-steel-targets-part-i/

Shooting Steel Targets, Pt2
http://www.actiontarget.com/shooting-steel-targets-part-2/

Shooting Steel Targets, Pt3
http://www.actiontarget.com/shooting-steel-targets-part-3/

Steel Target Resource Guide
http://www.actiontarget.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/pt_Steel_Target_Resource_Guide.pdf

TheTrevor
06-17-2014, 06:05 PM
23-24 feet is about as close as I like to get to steel with a pistol, though the place I bought mine from (shootsteel.com) recommends 10 yards. At those ranges it's FMJ only, no HP, and even then I'll still get the occasional bit of splashback debris stinging me in the face/hands. Not hard enough to break the skin, but definitely moving fast enough to remind me why eye pro is mandatory.

For close-in pistol steel you'll either want it to be free-hanging or mounted at an angle with the top edge towards the shooter. Either one of those setups will minimize the debris hazard.

100 yards is for medium-energy rifle rounds, e.g. 5.56 or 5.45, not pistol.

ACP230
06-17-2014, 06:13 PM
I don't like to shoot steel closer than 12 yards.
Fifteen or 20 yards for ones big enough to hit at that distance.

I once put a steel bowling pin silhouette out at 35 yards, or so. I then declared it a stop plate and
gave the shooters a Beretta 21A .22 LR pistol to hit it with.
Much moaning ensued, especially from those who had to go to the second magazine.

B.K.
06-17-2014, 06:20 PM
For the Speed Steel matches at my range, they require the courses be set-up to keep the shooter 10 yards from the steel. As Trevor noted, it's not unusual to get hit in the face with little pieces of the jacket when shooting FMJ - it can sting a little.

TheTrevor
06-17-2014, 06:29 PM
My personal favorite was the time I got bonked on the head from above by a complete, perfect 1" disc that took flight when a guy on stage to my right shot a steel popper at just the perfect angle. You could see the copper plating on it and everything.

ETA: JohnnyYukon, 9mm/40SW/45ACP are similar, but 357mag is in a different class. You're going to want to step up to 3/8" AR500 and step back to at least 25-35 yards if you're going to shoot steel with full-house 357 loads. I'd recommend using 38spl loads any time you're shooting steel unless you want to do some distance work.

johnnyyukon
06-17-2014, 07:14 PM
ETA: JohnnyYukon, 9mm/40SW/45ACP are similar, but 357mag is in a different class. You're going to want to step up to 3/8" AR500 and step back to at least 25-35 yards if you're going to shoot steel with full-house 357 loads. I'd recommend using 38spl loads any time you're shooting steel unless you want to do some distance work.

Yesssir.

Slavex
06-26-2014, 08:08 PM
we shoot steel as close as 7yds in Steel Challenge with a variety of pistols. At that distance it's the stuff coming of the target and hitting the bases that comes back at you. Some barrels or hay bales will minimize that stuff.

Failure2Stop
06-27-2014, 07:39 AM
Putting sandbags, hay bales, rubber matting, etc in the spall line does a lot to keep nasty s**t from coming back at the shooter.
Having the face of the target canted downward by about 30 degrees does a lot to keep low velocity rounds from bouncing back at the shooter.
Upright targets are the only ones that I have ever seen spit a flattened projectile back.

Steel is no joke.

Totem Polar
06-27-2014, 02:24 PM
Putting sandbags, hay bales, rubber matting, etc in the spall line does a lot to keep nasty shit from coming back at the shooter.
Having the face of the target canted downward by about 30 degrees does a lot to keep low velocity rounds from bouncing back at the shooter.
Upright targets are the only ones that I have ever seen spit a flattened projectile back.

Steel is no joke.
Ive shot drills very close to steel. As mentioned, properly designed mounting setups that keep the target face angled down are critical. Attention to where you look is also critical; anytime steel is being hit, you either want to face directly towards it, or 180 away: it's the stuff coming off the base around the stands on the sides from you (in my admittedly limited experience) that is an issue. (eg. Don't turn your head to engage in conversation while anyone is shooting steel; keep lenses to targets).

Somewhat OT, but the first time I ever shot a bowling pin at a club shoot, I stepped up and, at the signal center punched the first pin. The flattened round came directly back and nailed me right on the bridge of my nose. A little disconcerting for both me as a beginner and for the RO right next to me (Rob Leahy of 'simply rugged holster fame, incidentally), but actually not a big deal.

JWinTN
06-27-2014, 09:48 PM
As mentioned, properly designed mounting setups that keep the target face angled down are critical.

I was in a Spaulding class a couple of months ago, and we were shooting his steel targets. I don't know who manufactured them, but they were on 2x4s and the face of the target was angled down. We started out shooting them, straight on, at seven yards and had to step back to ten because we were getting peppered by spall. I don't know if it was from the target face or the base. We only fired a couple of volleys before we stepped back. I have a feeling that one shooter and one target presents less of a problem than a number of people and targets on a line.

I prefer to be at least ten yards away if I can help it. Our local matches don't allow for shooting steel any closer than 10 yards, and even then I have seen people cut by fragments coming back. Once, a bullet fired at steel in another bay came plummeting from the sky, seemingly straight down, and hit me on my trapezius, leaving a knot that lasted a few days. I'm glad it didn't make it to my noggin.

ragnar_d
06-28-2014, 05:53 PM
Not much to add, but I agree with all of F2S's points. Also, the magic number for USPSA is 23 feet for pistols (something that was hit pretty hard at my RO class):
Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling
10.5.17 - A shot fired at a metal target from a distance of less than 23 feet, measured from the face of the target to the nearest part of the competitor’s body in contact with the ground (see Rule 2.1.3).
http://www.uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2014/Feb%202014%20Handgun%20Rules.pdf

Think 25 yards (ish, maybe?) is the closest I've shot steel with a rifle . . . it was at a USCA match at the VCGHC and the thought of folks whinging M855 or 7.62 wolf projectiles that close had me a bit concerned.

TheTrevor
06-28-2014, 10:50 PM
25 yards is FAR too close to shoot steel with a rifle, IMHO. 50yd is questionable but might be ok with the right targets, stands, and range setup. 75yd is the minimum at which I'm comfortable shooting steel with 5.56/5.45.

SecondsCount
06-29-2014, 02:05 AM
I was in a Spaulding class a couple of months ago, and we were shooting his steel targets. I don't know who manufactured them, but they were on 2x4s and the face of the target was angled down. We started out shooting them, straight on, at seven yards and had to step back to ten because we were getting peppered by spall. I don't know if it was from the target face or the base. We only fired a couple of volleys before we stepped back. I have a feeling that one shooter and one target presents less of a problem than a number of people and targets on a line.


I have a similar set and at 21 feet I will get the occasional fragment back when shooting it with service calibers. There isn't enough velocity in the fragments to do anything, just enough to feel like sand in a windstorm, maybe a little stinging.

Rifle, especially high velocity 223, can be very dangerous at close range. I have seen ricochets at 30 yards that had enough energy to penetrate clothing and draw blood.

Failure2Stop
06-29-2014, 08:43 AM
25 yards is FAR too close to shoot steel with a rifle, IMHO. 50yd is questionable but might be ok with the right targets, stands, and range setup. 75yd is the minimum at which I'm comfortable shooting steel with 5.56/5.45.
The set-up needs to be smart to minimize base deflection and bouncing of M855 penetrators, but 25 is ok if your target will take it.

Please remember the key parts of this:
At least 3/8 AR500
No pits on the face of the steel deeper than 1/16 inch.
Attachment bolts need to have as flat of a dome on the impact side as possible.
Any hard angle on the face of the steel will push frag back at the shooting line.
Sandbags on the base will help keep the base from tipping and will deaden frag bounce.
Spall will extend 30 degrees off of the face of the plate and travel for around 100 meters in all directions (upright), virtually zero upward spall if a forward lean is used (degree sensitive).
Pistol projectiles tend to bounce more and produce larger pieces of frag than rifle, as rifle bullets at rifle speeds tend to vaporize more than splash, and are generally smaller where it matters.

Velocity kills steel. Most of the aversion to close range rifle (25-100 meters) is that it tears up the steel. Really there are pretty few decent drills that call for steel at closer than 50, so much of this is academic. I view 25 as the closest that I am willing to have students shoot on, and that is single shooter with observers back at 50.

John Hearne
06-29-2014, 04:10 PM
Target design makes a huge difference. The MGM BC Target is a rifle target that you can shoot at 15 yards.

http://mgmtargets.com/tactical-targets/tac-bccz-with-armor-plate-post-and-tube-base?cPath=11&

dbateman
07-01-2014, 05:40 AM
Putting sandbags, hay bales, rubber matting, etc in the spall line does a lot to keep nasty shit from coming back at the shooter.
Having the face of the target canted downward by about 30 degrees does a lot to keep low velocity rounds from bouncing back at the shooter.
Upright targets are the only ones that I have ever seen spit a flattened projectile back.

Steel is no joke.


I do pretty much what F2S does by the sound of it.

Typically when I shoot steel with a handgun it is a min of 7yds with a .223 or .308 I try and keep it at a min of 100yds but have shoot closer with spall guards setup.
For hi powered rifles (338LM and up) I like to keep the steel a min of 500yds.

All my steel is 1/2" AR500 I cant stress enough how important it is to use the correct steel when making targets.

Little Creek
07-01-2014, 06:08 AM
It depends. Action Target systems suggest their AR500 targets be shot no closer than 10 yards with handguns and no closer than 100 yards with rifles that have a muzzle velocity of less than 3000 fps. I have seen published drills with action target systems as close as 7 yards.

The KEY is getting quality targets from a company that goes to great lengths to eliminate splashback. Once "pistol", AR500 targets, have been pock marked or penetrated by rifle fire, they are no longer safe to shoot at 10 yards with a pistol.

Chuck Whitlock
07-01-2014, 08:58 AM
IIRC, at FLETC steel targets are only shot with frangible ammo. Of course, then you get into things like breachface erosion and all.

RJ
09-23-2015, 12:03 PM
I did a search to find this thread for this question.

New to shooting, and I'm going to my first Steel Challenge match next month.

For use in my VP9, what is the recomendation for type of ammo to use to minimize spall?

Does weight (115, 124, 147) make a difference?

FMJ? TMJ?

I need approximately 200 rounds, so I'm going to put in a bulk order instead of buying locally. Thanks in advance. Rich

SecondsCount
09-23-2015, 12:30 PM
Plated or lead bullets work best but most of the issues I have seen have been with higher velocity hollow point ammo.

RJ
09-23-2015, 05:47 PM
Plated or lead bullets work best but most of the issues I have seen have been with higher velocity hollow point ammo.

Ok, cool.

So, lowest price point, new, 115 gr FMJ is good to go for steel...yes?

(I've got an order in checkout with sgammo.com for x00 rounds of Speer Lawman new brass 115 TMJ.)

TheRoland
09-23-2015, 06:14 PM
Ok, cool.

So, lowest price point, new, 115 gr FMJ is good to go for steel...yes?

(I've got an order in checkout with sgammo.com for x00 rounds of Speer Lawman new brass 115 TMJ.)

It's not unsafe with good targets, and lots of people use them, but neither FMJ nor TMJ is "lead or plated" in the post you're replying to. FMJ and TMJ are "jacketed" and pieces of jacket will potentially come back.

RJ
09-24-2015, 08:28 AM
Ok, so all other things being equal, using my normal training ammo (Say, Federal Champion 115 brass new) for steel is ok?

I wear a cap, good ballistic wrap around eye pro, and short sleeve T-shirts. Maybe I'll go with a long sleeve shirt next month.

Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Alpha Sierra
09-24-2015, 08:35 AM
Ok, so all other things being equal, using my normal training ammo (Say, Federal Champion 115 brass new) for steel is ok?

I wear a cap, good ballistic wrap around eye pro, and short sleeve T-shirts. Maybe I'll go with a long sleeve shirt next month.

Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, your ammo is fine. Bullet weight doesn't matter, the difference in mass between a 147 gr and a 115 gr bullet is something like .075 ounces........

When people say "lead or plated" bullets they mean cast lead bullets that are either bare lead, polymer coated, or copper plated.

Those bullets do not have a separate copper sheet jacket and tend to just flatten out with minimal fragmentation. The copper plating on plated bullets does not react to impact by fragmenting the way a copper jacket does.

You'll be going to an organized match with target setting guidelines based on sound safety practices. Don't worry about it

RJ
09-24-2015, 09:33 AM
Yes, your ammo is fine. Bullet weight doesn't matter, the difference in mass between a 147 gr and a 115 gr bullet is something like .075 ounces........

When people say "lead or plated" bullets they mean cast lead bullets that are either bare lead, polymer coated, or copper plated.

Those bullets do not have a separate copper sheet jacket and tend to just flatten out with minimal fragmentation. The copper plating on plated bullets does not react to impact by fragmenting the way a copper jacket does.

You'll be going to an organized match with target setting guidelines based on sound safety practices. Don't worry about it

Copy. Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

peterthefish
09-26-2015, 10:53 AM
TMJ bullets are plated, just a thicker plating than a berrys.