Benelli M4 vs. Beretta 1301...

[Unobtanium]

Both shotguns enter the country neutered. The Benelli takes more work. More money. A LOT MORE. So lets throw price out the window, now, otherwise there is no sense in comparing, as I don't think that the diminishing returns from either system are technically worth the price difference. So lets compare based on merits of the systems, after DE-neutering them.

1301 Tactical:

-Starts at 6.7#, added mag-tube likely brings it to what, 6.8-9#? We will say 6.9#
-18.5" Fixed Cylinder CHF Chrome-lined barrel
-LPA sights
-13" LOP stock
-A400 gas-system
-Capacity 7+1+1

Benelli M4:

-Starts at 7.8#, adding mag-tube REDUCES this to 7.5# (8oz heavier than the 1301 Tactical)
-LPA sights
-3-position stock, with LOP of 14.25", 12.25" (perfect cheek-weld for optic use), and fully collapsed
-Capacity 7+1+1
-ARGO gas system
-18.5" Fixed MOD choke CHF Chrome-lined barrel (Yes, these mil-issue barrels exist, and I bought one for my last M4)

Both shotguns can be similarly outfitted regarding their controls (bolt-release, charging handle, etc.). Neither have flawless light-mounting solutions, but both have VERY workable solutions, such as the Briley rail for both/either, or the AVA Tactical system for the Benelli M4. Both add only 1-2oz. or so, IIRC.

The Benelli has the advantage of a military procurement program and the subsequent trials. Kindof like comparing a Colt M4A1 to a BCM "M4A1". They are both very good guns, but the Colt is made to a recipe that has proven itself and been relentlessly tested.

Beretta is very popular in 3-gun, which is a very high-round count sport, as well.

What have I found on the internet and from trusted sources (personal experience, DocGKR, etc.) about design flaws?

-I have found several teething issues with the A400 system, mainly gumming up of the gas-ring similar to the 11-87 using some ammo, as well as the extractor defacing the barrel where it rotates. Thus far, this is all I can find about the Beretta having issues.

-I found 1 individual who's Benelli would not cycle anything but full-power ammunition, and Benelli replaced his barrel assembly and it now functions with most anything. I have owned 4 Benelli M4's over the years, and all would cycle with authority (not just dribbling out the ejection port) 1145fps 2.75 Dram Remington target ammunition (green hull). I also found multiple issues when Benelli used the 4-port gas system, which was meant for LOW RECOIL ammo, and when full-power ammo was used, pistons broke and carriers defaced. I have contacted someone who services the Benelli's for the military. They have only seen 1 go down. The barrel was slammed in the door of an uparmored HUMVEE. The only issues they report are lost charging-handles (soldier issue, not that they fly off), and worn or torn O-rings on the gas-piston plugs from rough cleaning/assembly practices. Otherwise, action springs are replaced every 6K rounds and they soldier on. Neither this person, nor DocGKR has reported that any receivers have ever been broken, and these are all of the failures I have seen/heard of during the time I was aware the M4 existed.

So, cost off the table completely, which one would you pick? Why? Have you owned one, the other, both?

Here is the best slow-motion footage I could find of the BLINK and ARGO systems:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuJVMPVu8tI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jJZAdlt80w

*I created this thread because I was cluttering the 1301 thread. This thread is to discuss BOTH platforms, more to the point, to compare them.

[WARDOG68]

I do have limited exposure with the 1301 but a high count yardage on the benelli m4, I shot nearly 60.000 rounds with the benelli, if your primary consideration is toughness and reliability I would give the nod to the m4, BUT, it has some shortcomings, the top rail is not a real picatinny, the collassable stock is awful, and it's HEAVY, and I mean HEAVY.. the beretta has a far superior safety located on the front of triggerguard, an incredibly fast action cycle and less perceived recoil, it's more balanced IMHO. Sights are the very same LPA ghost rings, they are both excellent shotguns, but they are different beasts, it's like comparing a rapier to a sabre. For a civilian with a reasonable care of the weapon system, I think that the beretta has a superior shootability, it's really a FAST shotgun. If you want something more rugged, the benelli is tougher.

[DocGKR]

I will also note that the Beretta comes with a shim kit for extensive stock adjustment for LOP, cant, cast, etc...

[Unobtanium]

I will also note that the Beretta comes with a shim kit for extensive stock adjustment for LOP, cant, cast, etc...

The furniture is the one thing that the Benelli M4 is at a distinct lack of advantage on. The stocks are simply too long for 95% of users. Sure, they are functional, but I don't like them.

[Unobtanium]

I do have limited exposure with the 1301 but a high count yardage on the benelli m4, I shot nearly 60.000 rounds with the benelli, if your primary consideration is toughness and reliability I would give the nod to the m4, BUT, it has some shortcomings, the top rail is not a real picatinny, the collassable stock is awful, and it's HEAVY, and I mean HEAVY.. the beretta has a far superior safety located on the front of triggerguard, an incredibly fast action cycle and less perceived recoil, it's more balanced IMHO. Sights are the very same LPA ghost rings, they are both excellent shotguns, but they are different beasts, it's like comparing a rapier to a sabre. For a civilian with a reasonable care of the weapon system, I think that the beretta has a superior shootability, it's really a FAST shotgun. If you want something more rugged, the benelli is tougher.

60K rounds on one Benelli, or on several totaling 60K? If on one, what parts, if any, were replaced over that mileage? How did the alloy receiver wear regarding the barrel-tang and carrier-rails? Was it self-limiting/non-issue?

Also I am curious about the cam-pins/cam-pin tracks on Benelli's. I have never put that kind of rounds through one. How do they hold up?

[GJM]

Darn, I am just curious as to who and why anyone gets to shoot 60,000 rounds thru a Benelli M4?

[JM Campbell]

Darn, I am just curious as to who and why anyone gets to shoot 60,000 rounds thru a Benelli M4?

Cool kids, with tons of shot shells.

I would also like to know the parts breakages if there where any.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[Dan_S]

Darn, I am just curious as to who and why anyone gets to shoot 60,000 rounds thru a Benelli M4?

Given his profile says he's in Italy, that give me an idea....

[Unobtanium]

Darn, I am just curious as to who and why anyone gets to shoot 60,000 rounds thru a Benelli M4?

Why not? I know people who shoot that much shot each season.

[DocGKR]

I've got quite a few friends who will push up to 30,000 rounds of shot per year for skeet, trap, clays, etc...

[GJM]

I've got quite a few friends who will push up to 30,000 rounds of shot per year for skeet, trap, clays, etc...

Precisely, as since a M4 isn't a classic sporting shotgun, I was wondering what you do with 60,000 rounds of shotgun ammo in a M4 -- is that 60,000 rounds of birdshot, or largely slugs and buck?

[Unobtanium]

Well...I hope he answers all these questions. ..seriously curious!

[Crews]

Based on many, many years of bird hunting and sporting clays with both spaghetti guns mentioned......

It's my opinion that Beretta's have noticeably less perceived recoil. Also, it's been my experience that Beretta guns are more reliable with low recoil ammo. BOTH guns run great when they're dirty, but the Benelli has a very slight advantage operating in adverse weather conditions.

[WARDOG68]

Sorry for the late answer, I totaled 60.000 rds in roughly five years. because of cost I shot mainly birdshots on steel, roughly 10.000 rds of slugs and maybe another 10.000 buckshots. My personal M4 held really well, I switched the original stock with a full stock, shortened to 13 inches LOP. As a matter of fact I didn't experience any breakage, but I guess that a stedy diet of only buckshot and slugs would had different impact on the gun. I used exclusively fiocchi ammo (again due to cost) I owned it from 2001 to 2006 I never babied it (back then I was a little cro-magnon with guns..) cleaned every 1000 rds, I shot roughly 200 to 500 rds every week, steadily, sorry but I never care to inspect wear points, but, nothing breaked in the timeframe. I sold the gun in 2006 to a friend, he still has it, and it's still going going strong. With the 28 gr. birdshot I had the occasional failure to eject but never with 32 gr. watch out however for the picatinny rail, it's not a real picatinny, I used an aimpoint M2 on it, and even when the factory mount was tightened real good it had some very slight wobble. I used a thin shim on mount and it held well. Also loctite EVERYTHING that can be loctited, because it WILL fall out.. I lost two screws from the picatinny even using blue loctite, and had to use red loctite on rear sight screws.

[JM Campbell]

Thank you for the follow up sir.

[Unobtanium]

Good info, thanks! Not often you get wear-point/failure data over 60K rounds on something like this.

[Mjolnir]

Sorry for the late answer, I totaled 60.000 rds in roughly five years. because of cost I shot mainly birdshots on steel, roughly 10.000 rds of slugs and maybe another 10.000 buckshots. My personal M4 held really well, I switched the original stock with a full stock, shortened to 13 inches LOP. As a matter of fact I didn't experience any breakage, but I guess that a stedy diet of only buckshot and slugs would had different impact on the gun. I used exclusively fiocchi ammo (again due to cost) I owned it from 2001 to 2006 I never babied it (back then I was a little cro-magnon with guns..) cleaned every 1000 rds, I shot roughly 200 to 500 rds every week, steadily, sorry but I never care to inspect wear points, but, nothing breaked in the timeframe. I sold the gun in 2006 to a friend, he still has it, and it's still going going strong. With the 28 gr. birdshot I had the occasional failure to eject but never with 32 gr. watch out however for the picatinny rail, it's not a real picatinny, I used an aimpoint M2 on it, and even when the factory mount was tightened real good it had some very slight wobble. I used a thin shim on mount and it held well. Also loctite EVERYTHING that can be loctited, because it WILL fall out.. I lost two screws from the picatinny even using blue loctite, and had to use red loctite on rear sight screws.

Wardog, could you please show photos of your stock that was shorter or shortened with some information about it?

Thanks, sir.


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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[Unobtanium]

Wardog, could you please show photos of your stock that was shorter or shortened with some information about it?

Thanks, sir.


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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

I'm not him, but most people cut the oem stock and then fill the end with a hardening epoxy type substance and then thread the pad screws into it. It's pretty straightforward, but takes some time.

[Mjolnir]

Thank you.

Question: does the collapsible stock work well in this capacity or does the cheek position get too high to use the sights?


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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[Unobtanium]

Thank you.

Question: does the collapsible stock work well in this capacity or does the cheek position get too high to use the sights?


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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

Mid position for me jammed my cheek bone into the stock hard and my jaw got hit by the button using irons. It works perfect for optics though. The full position is same length and feel as the fixed PG stock.

[Mjolnir]

Mid position for me jammed my cheek bone into the stock hard and my jaw got hit by the button using irons. It works perfect for optics though. The full position is same length and feel as the fixed PG stock.

So one would have to modify the rod with another position - an interim position - or be forced to use a T1...

I'm curious because I'd like to remove as much length as possible - 2 inches. I'd rather be "nose to charge handle" than "turkey winging".

Thanks.


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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[Unobtanium]

So one would have to modify the rod with another position - an interim position - or be forced to use a T1...

I'm curious because I'd like to remove as much length as possible - 2 inches. I'd rather be "nose to charge handle" than "turkey winging".

Thanks.


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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

Pretty much...or get a mesa urbino. I dislike how the urbino attaches, but I'm picky.

[Mjolnir]

Pretty much...or get a mesa urbino. I dislike how the urbino attaches, but I'm picky.

Yes, I don't like the but road attachment either.


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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[Unobtanium]

Yes, I don't like the but road attachment either.


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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

I'm going to try the field stock on my next Benelli M4 build.

[Mjolnir]

It's just as long as the pistol gripped variant, though.


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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[Unobtanium]

It's just as long as the pistol gripped variant, though.


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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

Yes, but the hand and grip interface seems to place the hand further forward. I have not tried it yet but I have hopes...

[GJM]

I had the factory collapsible stock, Mesa stock and field stock for my M4. None really did it for me. Beretta figured the stock out on the 1301.

My wife just got a M2 field, 20 gauge. We are cutting the barrel back, adding a Nordic tube, and hope to have a lightweight Brenneke launcher.

[Unobtanium]

I had the factory collapsible stock, Mesa stock and field stock for my M4. None really did it for me. Beretta figured the stock out on the 1301.

My wife just got a M2 field, 20 gauge. We are cutting the barrel back, adding a Nordic tube, and hope to have a lightweight Brenneke launcher.
Stock is my only real complaint. No idea why they can't offer a 13" lop optional.

[GJM]

Agreed on the LOP. I wanted the length and pad of the Mesa on the field stock profile.

If you are looking for a field stock, and not in too big of a hurry, I may still have it from when I sold my M4 with the Mesa.

[Mjolnir]

I spoke with Benelli at the NRA Convention about the Length of Pull on their tactical and 3-Gun models. Italy doesn't get it...


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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[WARDOG68]

Sorry for late answer I don't own the M4 as now, Sold it long time ago, the stock work was done by a local gunsmith, he shortened it with a band saw, then inserted and epoxied a wood filler inside to hold the buttpad screws, then assembled everything. I remember that with the shortened stock and my shooting position I had no problems with the dot, much more with iron sights.

[joshs]

I spoke with Benelli at the NRA Convention about the Length of Pull on their tactical and 3-Gun models. Italy doesn't get it...


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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

I'm not aware of a great demand for short stocks in 3 gun. Most competitors I see are using full length stocks on both their shotgun and rifle.

[Mjolnir]

Interesting observation.

[Unobtanium]

I'm not aware of a great demand for short stocks in 3 gun. Most competitors I see are using full length stocks on both their shotgun and rifle.

The Benelli stock is rather long, though, 14.25" LOP. Are you referring to these specific stocks, or just stocks in general?

[GJM]

I'm not aware of a great demand for Benelli M4 shotguns in 3 gun. Most competitors I see are using Benelli M2, Beretta 1301 or Versamax shotguns

FIFY

[joshs]

The Benelli stock is rather long, though, 14.25" LOP. Are you referring to these specific stocks, or just stocks in general?

The M2 is still the most common shotgun I see. Almost everyone uses it with the factory comfortech stock, but some do shorten it a bit by going to the shorter recoil pad. 14.25 is a pretty common LOP, almost all of the factory shotguns GJM mentions are right around 14" from the factory.

[joshs]

FIFY

I still don't see a lot of 1301s. They didn't really do a much better job with their ready out-of-the box gun than Benelli. The 1301 still needs the same work as most factory shotguns. I think the 1301 is a great shotgun, it just isn't as ready to race as advertised.

[Chris Rhines]

FIFY

Um, not really, at least not around here. The 1301 Comp has started making some slight inroads into 3-Gun, but seeing one is still an occasion for comment.

That said, the 1301 is significantly closer to being "ready to race out of the box" than any other shotgun I've seen. Specifically, it doesn't need to have the loading port opened up for fast quad-loading, and the shell latch doesn't need to be tuned to work with a long extension tube.

Combine this with the light weight and low recoil, and the 1301 has a lot of potential as a 3-gun rig. It's just not quite there yet.