Wilson Combat making M&P barrels

[hossb7]

Surprised this hasn't been posted yet.

http://www.tactical-life.com/magazines/guns-and-weapons/wilson-combat-match-grade-barrels/?scrape=true

http://www.tactical-life.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/wilson2.jpg

Wilson Combat® Match-Grade Barrels are known for their unsurpassed quality and accuracy. Now you can have this superb accuracy without sending your pistol off to a master pistolsmith and waiting for months.


Match-Grade – Superb Accuracy (2″ Or Less At 25 Yards With Good Ammo)
1 in 16″ Twist
Fully Machined From 416R Stainless Steel
Heat-Treated To R/C 40 For Maximum Service Life
Critical Manufacturing Tolerances Are Held To Less Than .0005″ (One Half Thousandth Of An Inch!)
Glass Smooth Chamber And Perfectly Concentric With The Bore
In Our Barrel Test Fixture We Routinely Obtain ½” At 25 Yard Groups
Detailed Final Inspection Prior To Receiving The Wilson Name On The Hood
Critical Lock-Up Contact Areas Cut To A Dimension That Provides A Good Lock-Up


Wilson Combat® Match-Grade Barrels are known for their unsurpassed quality and accuracy. Wilson Combat® match barrels are fully machined from aircraft grade stainless steel forgings and heat-treated to R/C 40 for maximum service life. Critical manufacturing tolerances are held to less than .0005″ (one half thousandth of an inch!). To give you phenomenal accuracy, extreme care has been taken to assure that the chamber is glass smooth and perfectly concentric with the bore. In our barrel test fixture we routinely obtain test groups of 1/2″ @ 25 yards; the accuracy is guaranteed to please YOU! Throughout the manufacturing process each barrel undergoes multiple quality-control checks, with a detailed final inspection prior to receiving the Wilson name. You can be sure that if your barrel bears the Wilson name, it’s the best there is!

Now you can have superb accuracy (2″ or less at 25 yds. with good ammo) without sending your pistol off to a master pistolsmith and waiting for months. Due to variations in pistol dimensions, installation in some pistols may require very minor material removal which most people can easily do themselves.

http://www.tactical-life.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/wilson1.jpg

Compact model for $160 http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Match-Grade-Barrel-9mm-Smith-Wesson-MP-Compact-358-Stainless/productinfo/687/

and Full Size threaded for $230: http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Match-Grade-Barrel-9mm-Smith-Wesson-MP-9-495-Threaded-1_2-28-Stainless/productinfo/688/

[orionz06]

That's all well and good but why threaded before a full size non-threaded barrel?

[Up1911Fan]

I'm sure FS won't be long.

[HCM]

How about a 5" ?

[jlw]

What's the definition of good ammo?

[JodyH]

What's the definition of good ammo?
Just a guess...
http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Wilson-Combat-Custom-Handgun-Ammunition/departments/134/

[orionz06]

Why am I to believe this will be the barrel that fixes the issues when Storm Lake and KKM have been shown to not reliably fix the M&P despite being respected barrel makers. I have my own hunches, anyone care to share more here or elsewhere?

[PPGMD]

How about a 5" ?

+ 1 I think releasing the compact, which isn't reported to have the accuracy issue of the larger pistols, before the long slide is a big fail. USPSA shooters would be all over the 5" than your normal concealed carrier would be buying the compact.

Orionz06,
I might have something to report, I need to talk to my contact and see if they are ready for a public reveal.

[orionz06]

I have my suspicions....

[JSGlock34]

Hm. I imagine Wilson would have access to a 'Langdon' barrel considering their recent Beretta partnership with Ernest...

[breakingtime91]

Honestly if this works the way I think it will, a full size with thumb saftey is in my near future.

[justintime]

I see one of these in my future

[JDM]

If this fixes the 9mm M&P accuracy problems, I'd be delighted and would likely purchase a thumb safety equipped M&P or two.

I'm really looking forward to some test results being published.

[HopetonBrown]

I had read that Storm Lake made the Wilson Glock barrels. I wonder who makes these?

[orionz06]

I had read that Storm Lake made the Wilson Glock barrels. I wonder who makes these?

Interesting. Hadn't heard about that at all. I hope that's not the case.

[LSP972]

Just a guess...
http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Wilson-Combat-Custom-Handgun-Ammunition/departments/134/

Well, I guess the phrase "There is no magic bullet" can no longer be used.

I mean, at two bucks per cartridge, those Wilson/Barnes 9mm loads GOTTA be magic, yes?:rolleyes:

.

[hossb7]

I had read that Storm Lake made the Wilson Glock barrels. I wonder who makes these?


Interesting. Hadn't heard about that at all. I hope that's not the case.

A member on another forum I'm on called Wilson Combat to ask about the origins of their Glock barrels. To hear him report it, Wilson makes them in house.

[orionz06]

I'd hope.

[SecondsCount]

$500 for a new M&P + $230 barrel. That is borderline HK territory.

Maybe this barrel will be the ticket for those that need it. Initial testing shows that mine shoots good enough with a 124 grain reloads.

[JV_]

$500 for a new M&P + $230 barrel. That is borderline HK territory.I'll take a $900 M&P that runs over any HK pistol.

[GJM]

I'll take a $900 M&P that runs over any HK pistol.

Ouch.

Even the new striker HK? :)

[PPGMD]

Well, I guess the phrase "There is no magic bullet" can no longer be used.

I mean, at two bucks per cartridge, those Wilson/Barnes 9mm loads GOTTA be magic, yes?:rolleyes:

But their signature match isn't priced too badly. Though I wonder what the purpose is for those ammo? The 125gr 9mm signature match seems a bit overloaded for USPSA or IDPA at over 134 power factor, most everyone else loads to 130 PF.

[gruntjim]

I've got a newer production M&P9 (Jan 2014), and it appears Smith is doing it right. We were hitting sporting clays at 40 yards, so I'm more than pleased with the stock guns.

For people who have older ones with issues, this might indeed be the fix for them.

[Savage Hands]

I had read that Storm Lake made the Wilson Glock barrels. I wonder who makes these?

Their Customer service said it was made in house.

[Savage Hands]

$500 for a new M&P + $230 barrel. That is borderline HK territory.

Maybe this barrel will be the ticket for those that need it. Initial testing shows that mine shoots good enough with a 124 grain reloads.


Some people prefer one platform over another period! If H&K was so great to everyone than most on this forum would be carrying or shooting them.

[hossb7]

I've got a newer production M&P9 (Jan 2014), and it appears Smith is doing it right. We were hitting sporting clays at 40 yards, so I'm more than pleased with the stock guns.

For people who have older ones with issues, this might indeed be the fix for them.

There's been a pretty extensive thread on M4C about this: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?139767-Current-production-S-amp-W-M-amp-P-s-(Update)

Hopefully M&Ps are out of the woods.

[SecondsCount]

Some people prefer one platform over another period! If H&K was so great to everyone than most on this forum would be carrying or shooting them.

Not sure what you are getting at here. All I was doing was comparing prices and I own HK and S&W pistols, including M&Ps. Like you said they each have their place.

Too bad replacing the barrel 9mm M&P is only the beginning of the upgrades.

[JV_]

Too bad replacing the barrel 9mm M&P is only the beginning of the upgrades.Yea, but the other parts are cheap and available.

[TAZ]

Didn't smith recently switch to a 1:10 twist for their production barrels?? Odd that Wilson stays 1:16. If they fixed the early unlocking then they might have a winner on their hands.

[JV_]

Didn't smith recently switch to a 1:10 twist for their production barrels?? Odd that Wilson stays 1:16.Unless S&W gave a specific reason for switching to 1:10, I don't find it odd.

1:16 works just fine for a lot of manufacturers, including BarSto.

[hossb7]

Too bad replacing the barrel 9mm M&P is only the beginning of the upgrades.

For older guns, maybe. If you don't already have APEX or similar parts installed.

For new guns, highly doubtful. Check the thread I linked right above your post. Numerous changes have been made to the M&P

[KevinB]

I'm interested.

I have 4 M&P FS guns, and mainly simply for another threaded barrel option.

[Jaywalker]

I recall from a Bill Riehl post that the barrels weren't the whole story. I inferred (can't recall where the post is) that badly-manufactured slides could/would prevent good barrels from living up to their potential.

[LSP972]

I'll take a $900 M&P that runs over any HK pistol.

Why?

.

[okie john]

$500 for a new M&P + $230 barrel. That is borderline HK territory.

Yes, but with S&W logistics, ergonomics, options for trigger work and other mods, user supportability, and aftermarket support. Maybe not such a bad way to go...


Okie John

[JV_]

Why?

Because I shot the M&P far better than I did the P30
S&W parts are cheap and readily available

[DocGKR]

Bingo!

I feel exactly the same way.

[2alpha-down0]

Interesting; the photos in the article are of a barrel similar in design to current factory barrels, but on the WC website they look like the older, original style barrels:

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/images/688-002.jpg

[Up1911Fan]

Interesting; the photos in the article are of a barrel similar in design to current factory barrels, but on the WC website they look like the older, original style barrels:

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/images/688-002.jpg

The article/photo in the first post are of Glock barrels.

[2alpha-down0]

The article/photo in the first post are of Glock barrels.

Sure enough, just looked again. Carry on. :o

[LSP972]

Because I shot the M&P far better than I did the P30


Good enough.

.

[GJM]

Because I shot the M&P far better than I did the P30
S&W parts are cheap and readily available

It is funny, I shoot almost everything better than an HK LEM, and it is at the bottom of the list of what I would take to a shooting match. That said, an HK LEM is near the top of the list of what I would choose if I thought I was going to need a pistol for real later today.

[Savage Hands]

So are we back to P30forums after the short Berettaforum switch? :cool:

[JV_]

That said, an HK LEM is near the top of the list of what I would choose if I thought I was going to need a pistol for real later today.

I only have one list.

-Sent from Tapatalk

[BLR]

Didn't smith recently switch to a 1:10 twist for their production barrels?? Odd that Wilson stays 1:16. If they fixed the early unlocking then they might have a winner on their hands.

To put a fine point on it, twist rate had nothing to do with any accuracy issues.

A smooth bore should be able to get you to 4" at 25yrds all day long. 8-10" groups are a result of another set of problems.

[jlw]

So are we back to P30forums after the short Berettaforum switch? :cool:

:cool:

[GJM]

I only have one list.

-Sent from Tapatalk

I get that, and if I lived in lower 48, that would be my plan. Spending part of the year out around grizzly bears, causes me to have two lists, and 9mm just isn't on the second list.



So are we back to P30forums after the short Berettaforum switch? :cool:

You forgot CZforum.

[hossb7]

That's all well and good but why threaded before a full size non-threaded barrel?

If you're still interested, I emailed WC right before posting this thread asking about the availability of non-threaded barrels. Got an email early this morning: "We will have some in stock soon."

[Erik]

It sure would be nice to get some input from Wilson Combat right about now...

[TAZ]

To put a fine point on it, twist rate had nothing to do with any accuracy issues.

A smooth bore should be able to get you to 4" at 25yrds all day long. 8-10" groups are a result of another set of problems.

Makes sense.

As a side question to someone who knows more than I; are the problems solvable via a drop in barrel?

[Rex Kramer]

So are we back to P30forums after the short Berettaforum switch? :cool:


I'm basically a lurker here, but I have to say that's pretty funny.

[JeffJ]

You forgot CZforum.

That was just you, me, and a couple other guys causing trouble on Berettaforum

[JodyH]

I was shooting H&K before Rainbow Six.

2366

[JV_]

He should be leaning on a fixie...

[hossb7]

I was shooting H&K before Rainbow Six.

The best $500 handgun you can get for $1,000 ;)

#shotsfired

[jlw]

H&K: It's a Glock with $400 of smugness included.

[LSP972]

The hate is strong with these two…:D

.

[cdunn]

I didn't notice having any accuracy issues with my m&p but picked up a storm lake barrel for a good price anyway,I can't wait to hear some reviews of the Wilson barrel.
JV I'm a m7p fan also .I shoot them better then most pistols I've had.I've bought and sold 4 hk's while still having my old m&p.not to mention I've got a box of parts and holsters.

[ranger]

So are we back to P30forums after the short Berettaforum switch? :cool:

That is funny!

[JonInWA]

On the one hand, it's great the Wilson/Apex et al have the commitment and wherewithal to come up with this sort of after-market support for the M&P.

On the other, I'm a bit disgusted that S&W simply doesn't get their act/manufacturing together for once and for all regarding the M&P; their failure to do so seems to necessitate aftermarket components and fixes. Such can work for and aficionado/hobbyist, but I see as a significant detriment to organizations and dedicated users on a budget. Especially since competitors can deliver comparable platforms at an equal or lower buy-in cost, without the aftermarket fix nonsense seemingly necessitated. As I've mentioned before, the S&W approach seems to resemble a game of Wack-A-Mole more than a serious market contender.

Unless (and I realize that this may be the case for some) a M&P intrinsically really offers a significant difference to a shooter/organization, it seems to make little sense to have to invest in both the gun and subsequent components and/or gunsmithing efforts merely to achieve parity with its competitors (such as Glock, Walther, FN, HK etc.)...

Best, Jon

[orionz06]

Has Apex even sold a barrel yet?

[PPGMD]

Has Apex even sold a barrel yet?

I've personally seen the prototypes. Barsto is the hold up at the moment.

[LSP972]

... a significant detriment to organizations...

Speaking of organizations and M&Ps… anyone got any recent skinny regarding the Texas DPS/M&P debacle?

.

[hossb7]

On the one hand, it's great the Wilson/Apex et al have the commitment and wherewithal to come up with this sort of after-market support for the M&P.

On the other, I'm a bit disgusted that S&W simply doesn't get their act/manufacturing together for once and for all regarding the M&P; their failure to do so seems to necessitate aftermarket components and fixes. Such can work for and aficionado/hobbyist, but I see as a significant detriment to organizations and dedicated users on a budget. Especially since competitors can deliver comparable platforms at an equal or lower buy-in cost, without the aftermarket fix nonsense seemingly necessitated. As I've mentioned before, the S&W approach seems to resemble a game of Wack-A-Mole more than a serious market contender.

Unless (and I realize that this may be the case for some) a M&P intrinsically really offers a significant difference to a shooter/organization, it seems to make little sense to have to invest in both the gun and subsequent components and/or gunsmithing efforts merely to achieve parity with its competitors (such as Glock, Walther, FN, HK etc.)...

Best, Jon

From my understanding the problem is fixed. Do you have a specific example of a current production gun?

[JonInWA]

Well, alrighty then-it's fixed!-and we've wasted 7 pages of bandwidth discussing what's presumably redundant effort by Wilson...

Unfortunately, those of us either having an M&P and/or those of us following the M&P saga (or sagi) over the years have seen this siren song played out to disparate results. Which is why I've been singularly uncompelled to personally jump on the M&P bandwagon, despite people that I respect buying into them. And, subsequently, it seems, more often than not, feeling the necessity of buying into more (e.g., APEX, Wilson, et al) to bring them to a desired level of accuracy/performance.

Unfortunately, viewing the M&P history as it's played out, I doubt that Wilson's effort is redundant. Bill Wilson's reputed to be a pretty astute and market-wise fellow; I doubt if he'd sink his time, efforts, and capital into something that he felt S&W had, or would be willing to truly effectively fix, as demonstrated historically.

And then there's the possibility that the barrel itself is only a portion of the issue(s), as has been raised earlier in this discussion thread...If so, have these issue(s) been successfully addressed by S&W? For me, all these issues at this time place the M&P (and particularly the 9mm M&Ps) into the same desirability category as a Springfield XD...And yes, there's a sarcasm meme in there someplace...

Best, Jon

[breakingtime91]

Well, alrighty then-it's fixed!-and we've wasted 7 pages of bandwidth discussing what's presumably redundant effort by Wilson...

Unfortunately, those of us either having an M&P and/or those of us following the M&P saga (or sagi) over the years have seen this siren song played out to disparate results. Which is why I've been singularly uncompelled to personally jump on the M&P bandwagon, despite people that I respect buying into them. And, subsequently, it seems, more often than not, feeling the necessity of buying into more (e.g., APEX, Wilson, et al) to bring them to a desired level of accuracy/performance.

Unfortunately, viewing the M&P history as it's played out, I doubt that Wilson's effort is redundant. Bill Wilson's reputed to be a pretty astute and market-wise fellow; I doubt if he'd sink his time, efforts, and capital into something that he felt S&W had, or would be willing to truly effectively fix, as demonstrated historically.

And then there's the possibility that the barrel itself is only a portion of the issue(s), as has been raised earlier in this discussion thread...If so, have these issue(s) been successfully addressed by S&W? For me, all these issues at this time place the M&P (and particularly the 9mm M&Ps) into the same desirability category as a Springfield XD...And yes, there's a sarcasm meme in there someplace...

Best, Jon

Do you recognize glock as having issues also? Just curious

[Wayne Dobbs]

I'm waiting for Bill Riehl to step in and say what he thinks this new drop in barrel will accomplish.

[Savage Hands]

I'm waiting for Bill Riehl to step in and say what he thinks this new drop in barrel will accomplish.

I'd also like Bill Wilson or his rep to add some input.
I was hoping to do some testing of their Glock 17 barrel this week, but it looks like it will be pushed off until a replacement comes in.

[GJM]

I'd also like Bill Wilson or his rep to add some input.
I was hoping to do some testing of their Glock 17 barrel this week, but it looks like it will be pushed off until a replacement comes in.

I had great results with a Wilson barrel in a Gen 3 17, and promptly ordered a second Wilson barrel.

[JonInWA]

Do you recognize glock as having issues also? Just curious

Absolutely-especially the Gen4 G19 (and Gen 3 Glocks when they switched from cast to MIM extractors), and I've discussed it not only here, but with Glock executives that I have a good relationship with; I haven't pulled any punches.

Best, Jon

[Savage Hands]

I had great results with a Wilson barrel in a Gen 3 17, and promptly ordered a second Wilson barrel.


Hopefully I get to see how it performs in my Gen 4 17 sooner than later.

[GJM]

Hopefully I get to see how it performs in my Gen 4 17 sooner than later.

The G4 17 pistols shoot so well stock, I am not sure an aftermarket barrel would do much. Definite improvement on the pre Gen 4 pistols, especially older ones. I have been waiting to grab a 19 Wilson barrel, but they have been backordered.

[breakingtime91]

Absolutely-especially the Gen4 G19 (and Gen 3 Glocks when they switched from cast to MIM extractors), and I've discussed it not only here, but with Glock executives that I have a good relationship with; I haven't pulled any punches.

Best, Jon

Nice, thanks for being fair across the board!

[Savage Hands]

The G4 17 pistols shoot so well stock, I am not sure an aftermarket barrel would do much. Definite improvement on the pre Gen 4 pistols, especially older ones. I have been waiting to grab a 19 Wilson barrel, but they have been backordered.


Make that "most" Gen 4 Glocks shoot well, my 6 month old 17 has shot like a Gen 3 in my hands and didn't wow me like my previous 17 or 19. The WC barrel is an experiment to see if any noticeable precision is gained in this gun, if not then lesson learned.

[orionz06]

I'd also like Bill Wilson or his rep to add some input.
I was hoping to do some testing of their Glock 17 barrel this week, but it looks like it will be pushed off until a replacement comes in.

For sure. Until they tell me something different has been done they're nothing more than another barrel that might work, or might not work.

[Sam]

Make that "most" Gen 4 Glocks shoot well, my 6 month old 17 has shot like a Gen 3 in my hands and didn't wow me like my previous 17 or 19. The WC barrel is an experiment to see if any noticeable precision is gained in this gun, if not then lesson learned.

Interested in playing around with a brand new KKM 19 Match 9mm Drop in? It's just sitting in the box and it looks at me with those sad puppy dog eyes.

[Savage Hands]

Interested in playing around with a brand new KKM 19 Match 9mm Drop in? It's just sitting in the box and it looks at me with those sad puppy dog eyes.


I am, but won't have a chance to anytime soon. I do have a buddy who is also a forum member that would be, he'd log the differences between the stock and kkm side by side.

[Savage Hands]

The G4 17 pistols shoot so well stock, I am not sure an aftermarket barrel would do much. Definite improvement on the pre Gen 4 pistols, especially older ones. I have been waiting to grab a 19 Wilson barrel, but they have been backordered.


Shooting practice ammo I'm not seeing much of a difference with the drop in WC in this gun which still needs trigger work pretty bad. I may eventually have a fitted Bar-Sto from Irv set up for carry tolerances down the line.

[Lomshek]

Hey Wilson rep or Mr. Wilson,

Any chance of a full fitted option with oversized hood and lugs?

[Handy]

Considering that a Glock/M&P/P99 is essentially a slide, barrel and a whole bunch of cheap other parts, it really seems crazy to have to replace one of the only two valuable components to get a useful gun.

Aren't any of the Walther, Ruger, Steyr, etc striker guns competitive for killing cardboard?

[Rich]

Because I shot the M&P far better than I did the P30
S&W parts are cheap and readily available

I would opt for a M&P 9 safety if it was as accurate as my P30S and most of all had less recoil.

[JM Campbell]

Considering that a Glock/M&P/P99 is essentially a slide, barrel and a whole bunch of cheap other parts, it really seems crazy to have to replace one of the only two valuable components to get a useful gun.

Aren't any of the Walther, Ruger, Steyr, etc striker guns competitive for killing cardboard?

HK VP9

But I just bought back into M&P so I'm all in warts and all.

I do have to say that the two M&P9fs I just picked up have outstanding triggers for stock and even better after installing the APEX AEK polymer trigger (all stock springs and hardware) to get rid of that spongy hinged trigger. 6.13lbs pull feels good and could give the VP9 and PPQ/M a run for its money on trigger feel.

If a WC barrel will get me mechanical accuracy down to 1.5" I'm buying in also, just have to practice more to hit that at 25yrds.

[BLR]

HK VP9

But I just bought back into M&P so I'm all in warts and all.

I do have to say that the two M&P9fs I just picked up have outstanding triggers for stock and even better after installing the APEX AEK polymer trigger (all stock springs and hardware) to get rid of that spongy hinged trigger. 6.13lbs pull feels good and could give the VP9 and PPQ/M a run for its money on trigger feel.

If a WC barrel will get me mechanical accuracy down to 1.5" I'm buying in also, just have to practice more to hit that at 25yrds.

If I were to lose my mind, give up all my lovely 1911s and 1935s for soulless cop guns, I'd be hard pressed not to stock up on long slide FNSs and work them over.

That said, I want to love M&Ps

[1slow]

Sir,
Why long slide FNS?

[BLR]

I'm waiting for Bill Riehl to step in and say what he thinks this new drop in barrel will accomplish.

Making 7 out of 10 M&P9s usable.

I'm betting WC will get a bunch of 3 out of 10 calling them up saying the barrel didn't fix the problem when in fact, that particular gun is FUBR.

The barrel machining is part of the problem. The barrel material is part of the problem. The barrel finish is part of the problem. The slide material is part of the problem. The slide finishing is part of the problem.

If the market wasn't in love with black, and would accept a stainless finish over black polymer (that'd be dead sexy IMO), it would be a much better gun.

[BLR]

Sir,
Why long slide FNS?

They are accurate, don't throw brass to my face, and are reasonably priced. The only issue, for me, is that because of my grip, I prevent the slide from locking back.

I shoot that gun better than any 9mm 1911. By a significant margin.

[Tamara]

If the market wasn't in love with black, and would accept a stainless finish over black polymer (that'd be dead sexy IMO), it would be a much better gun.

Have you seen my carry gun (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2014/03/carry-gun.html)?

Ironically, it's the less accurate of my two M&Ps. With crap bulk 115gr ball, it's lucky to hold 6" @ 25, rested, although it will do better with better ammo and is reasonable with 147s. That said, it'll clang & bang 6" steel plates at ten yards all day long, and so who's gonna notice?

The ironic part is that my newer black gun, the one I put the Deltapoint on, doesn't seem to have any accuracy issues. I mean, I don't know I'd want to shoot a 2700 match with it, but it shoots okay.

One thing I'm curious about regarding your hypothesis: How does it fit with the fact that there aren't really any accuracy beefs with the other calibers? In fact most people claim outstanding accuracy with the .45 and .357SIG variants. (Regarding the latter... When he found out I had a .357 M&P, Mas got all excited and went on about how accurate his T&E gun had been, and several other people who I know can hold a group have gone on in a similar fashion about them.)

[LorenzoS]

...The barrel finish is part of the problem. ...

Curious to learn how a finish would affect accuracy. Is it the temperature used when applying it?

[BLR]

Have you seen my carry gun (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2014/03/carry-gun.html)?

Ironically, it's the less accurate of my two M&Ps. With crap bulk 115gr ball, it's lucky to hold 6" @ 25, rested, although it will do better with better ammo and is reasonable with 147s. That said, it'll clang & bang 6" steel plates at ten yards all day long, and so who's gonna notice?

The ironic part is that my newer black gun, the one I put the Deltapoint on, doesn't seem to have any accuracy issues. I mean, I don't know I'd want to shoot a 2700 match with it, but it shoots okay.

One thing I'm curious about regarding your hypothesis: How does it fit with the fact that there aren't really any accuracy beefs with the other calibers? In fact most people claim outstanding accuracy with the .45 and .357SIG variants. (Regarding the latter... When he found out I had a .357 M&P, Mas got all excited and went on about how accurate his T&E gun was, and several other people who I know can hold a group have gone on in a similar fashion about them.)

Your guns are exactly what I'm talking about.

Here is the thing with FCN - it's a high temp process, and stuffs extra atoms into the crystal lattice. So, you are stressing the microstructure, in combination with heating up and cooling down parts with very different cross sections (that matters, btw). Why would the 357, 40, and 45 be so different? Ever look at the thickness differences between a 9 slide and the others?

Then there is the starting material discussion. FCN was never intended for stainless steels, or even medium alloy steels. You see fewer issues with plasma processes (what I believe HK uses). You'll see fewer issues with low carbon/alloy steels (what I believe Glock uses). Questionable barrels + very different cross sectional thickness + inappropriate (IMO) process = the problems we see. I have seen a few M&P slides fracture, and when they do, the fractures show no sign of ductile failure (again, in the ones I have seen).

Like I tell my students, everything matters. Everything. And everything is additive. All things interplay. All things can bite you in the ass. Like the 92 locking block. Great design, until you make the block hard enough it doesn't set back and only contacts one lug.

Or it could be rifling twist rate :)

[BLR]

Curious to learn how a finish would affect accuracy. Is it the temperature used when applying it?

If you ramp up and down slowly enough that everything stays aprox the same temp, no. But do you think the slides on the inside of the basket cool like the ones on the outside? Do you think they are more concerned with through put or the occasional guy who is unhappy with a 6" gun?

But they don't hit you in the face with brass.

[ranger]

Your guns are exactly what I'm talking about.

Here is the thing with FCN - it's a high temp process, and stuffs extra atoms into the crystal lattice. So, you are stressing the microstructure, in combination with heating up and cooling down parts with very different cross sections (that matters, btw). Why would the 357, 40, and 45 be so different? Ever look at the thickness differences between a 9 slide and the others?

Then there is the starting material discussion. FCN was never intended for stainless steels, or even medium alloy steels. You see fewer issues with plasma processes (what I believe HK uses). You'll see fewer issues with low carbon/alloy steels (what I believe Glock uses). Questionable barrels + very different cross sectional thickness + inappropriate (IMO) process = the problems we see. I have seen a few M&P slides fracture, and when they do, the fractures show no sign of ductile failure (again, in the ones I have seen).

Like I tell my students, everything matters. Everything. And everything is additive. All things interplay. All things can bite you in the ass. Like the 92 locking block. Great design, until you make the block hard enough it doesn't set back and only contacts one lug.

Or it could be rifling twist rate :)

It would be interesting to see if S&W would release some M&P barrels without the finish step and see how they shoot?

[Wayne Dobbs]

The slide finish is just as big a problem. And, they need to get the chambers concentric to the bore...

[orionz06]

What's wrong with the slide finish?

[Tamara]

Here is the thing with FCN - it's a high temp process, and stuffs extra atoms into the crystal lattice. So, you are stressing the microstructure, in combination with heating up and cooling down parts with very different cross sections (that matters, btw). Why would the 357, 40, and 45 be so different? Ever look at the thickness differences between a 9 slide and the others?

I am remembering a theory advanced by a materials engineer 'way back in my GT days regarding the preponderance of Glock kB!'s being in .40-cal guns (and I mean real kB!'s, where the chamber hood peeled back like a banana); chamber wall thickness and the FCN process being the prime suspects...

[Wayne Dobbs]

What's wrong with the slide finish?

Bill Riehl can explain from the engineering/scientific standpoint, but the blackening/hardening finish process causes a warp to the slide that results in inconsistent barrel/slide lockup. Combined with the chambers often being eccentric to the bore and you get those magnificent 6-8" groups the guns are famous for.

[orionz06]

Bill Riehl can explain from the engineering/scientific standpoint, but the blackening/hardening finish process causes a warp to the slide that results in inconsistent barrel/slide lockup. Combined with the chambers often being eccentric to the bore and you get those magnificent 6-8" groups the guns are famous for.

Oh, I thought there were corrosion concerns.

[Chuck Whitlock]

My memory is weak here....

Were there accuracy issues in 9mm from the get-go, or did they crop up in mid-production?

I don't seem to remember hearing about accuracy woes when the M&P was first introduced, but I may be remembering wrong.

[orionz06]

I had a sub 2" gun before (5 shots)... Problems seemed to happen mid stream... Around when S&W swapped companies doing the coating. My awesome gun was a rusty slide edition.

[Tamara]

Weren't the OG M&P treatments done by what's-their-faces... Trutec? ...down in TN? I seem to recall that they were doing big batch jobs for somebody, and I think it was Smith, back in '05 or '06 when I was at CCA and we were working with them for 1911 stuff and retail gun finishing.

[Jared]

Bill Riehl can explain from the engineering/scientific standpoint, but the blackening/hardening finish process causes a warp to the slide that results in inconsistent barrel/slide lockup. Combined with the chambers often being eccentric to the bore and you get those magnificent 6-8" groups the guns are famous for.

I'm finding this interesting, but I do not understand why it's not affecting the 40's and 45's. Are those slides thicker and that's what's preventing the problem? Is this whole thing a tolerance stacking issue, where the slide may or may not warp, the chamber and bore may or may not be in alignment, and the gun may or may not stay locked up correctly, and it all results in a total crapshoot where accuracy is concerned?

[orionz06]

Weren't the OG M&P treatments done by what's-their-faces... Trutec? ...down in TN? I seem to recall that they were doing big batch jobs for somebody, and I think it was Smith, back in '05 or '06 when I was at CCA and we were working with them for 1911 stuff and retail gun finishing.

I thought it was something like that, not certain. All I know is around the time of the finisher changing is when the accuracy issues rolled in. My worst gun had a rusty slide and a front sight falling out, both of which were growing pains that have been resolved, but as a result was crappy on paper.

I hope it's not the easy answer popping into my head but it makes sense what's being laid down.

[Handy]

I'm finding this interesting, but I do not understand why it's not affecting the 40's and 45's. Are those slides thicker and that's what's preventing the problem? Is this whole thing a tolerance stacking issue, where the slide may or may not warp, the chamber and bore may or may not be in alignment, and the gun may or may not stay locked up correctly, and it all results in a total crapshoot where accuracy is concerned?

I would think the 9mm slides are lighter and thinner, which may be why they are more prone to warping.

[Handy]

Duplicate

[Tamara]

I thought it was something like that, not certain. All I know is around the time of the finisher changing is when the accuracy issues rolled in.

Hm.

I wonder if they did that initial change of finishers because they wanted other stuff Melonited, like frames or receivers? I know that at the time, Trutec didn't have an FFL and we had to send an employee to go loiter around while they did our batches that had frames in 'em, which is a lot more practical if you're in Knoxville as opposed to Springfield, MA. If Smith wanted to expand the line of stuff that was FCN'ed to include serial numbered parts and Trutec dragged their heels about getting an FFL, that could have explained why they went shopping elsewhere.

(This is, of course, idle speculation based on a limited number of facts. Maybe they just got quoted a better price from somebody else. I wonder who's doing it now? Bill probably knows, or maybe Ed Foster does...)

[orionz06]

Some place in Ohio I thought.

[Tamara]

Some place in Ohio I thought.

That's what Google seems to think, too... Hrm.

[Jakus]

Anybody tried one of these yet? I've been transitioning towards thumb Safety M&P's and I would like to sell of a full size 9 w/ an RMR and replace it will a full size thumb safety gun. I sure wish Apex/Wilson/somebody would take money from me in return for a know quality barrel/accuracy fix.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I've communicated with WC this week for the second time about standard FS barrels and they still say none available. Kind of odd to introduce Compact barrels (which haven't had the accuracy issues) and threaded barrels when a standard barrel is likely the most needed item.

[BWT]

I've communicated with WC this week for the second time about standard FS barrels and they still say none available. Kind of odd to introduce Compact barrels (which haven't had the accuracy issues) and threaded barrels when a standard barrel is likely the most needed item.

Maybe the full size isn't testing as well among all guns as they like? Like waiting to be satisfied with the results.

[Kimura]

Maybe the full size isn't testing as well among all guns as they like? Like waiting to be satisfied with the results.

The threaded barrel is for a full size. What would be the difference between it and the standard barrel for the full size? Wouldn't fitting be the same?

It would be interesting for someone from Wilson Combat to come on here and address the questions. I'm interested to know how they solved the problems when Bar-sto apparently couldn't.

[orionz06]

I imagine if they would have their representative posting on the forum would have been all over it as they would likely sell out as soon as they posted it.

[Savage Hands]

In my short experiment with drop in Wilson Combat and KKM Gen 4 G17 barrel, I found that the WC shot about the same as the stock barrel and slightly worse with the KKM.
So I decided I want a fitted WC or Bar-Sto barrel to my next Gen 4 G17.

[hossb7]

In my short experiment with drop in Wilson Combat and KKM Gen 4 G17 barrel, I found that the WC shot about the same as the stock barrel and slightly worse with the KKM.
So I decided I want a fitted WC or Bar-Sto barrel to my next Gen 4 G17.

On this note, Hilton Yam recently recommended Briley and Bar Sto oversized match barrels for his Glocks, and Storm Lake for his M&Ps.

[Lomshek]

I imagine if they would have their representative posting on the forum would have been all over it as they would likely sell out as soon as they posted it.

If WC sends me a barrel I'd be happy to burn some money on ammo comparing different loads to the factory barrel. It would give me an excuse to try out a bunch of different SD and plinking loads. Nothing like side by side comparison of 5 or 10 loads to make the case!

Hate to burn over $200+ sight unseen on a barrel that may need fitted as an experiment that may or may not do the trick AND that much in ammo just to hope it works. There's also the concern of warped slides contributing to the problem and I don't know enough to have a clue how much influence that might have with a match barrel (but would like to find out).

Here's what I've seen with the factory parts with three different pistols (all 25m rested 10 round groups) and a single .22lr group (top left) to show what I can do with a more accurate gun (2").

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z67/bonecreekgunclub/Forum%20photos/MP9HBKTargetCollage.jpg

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z67/bonecreekgunclub/Forum%20photos/MP9DXEtargetcollage.jpg

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z67/bonecreekgunclub/Forum%20photos/MP9MREtargetcollage.jpg

Each gun has its own wildly different POI and group size with each load.

All I want is a gun that'll do 2" - 4" (preferably 2") at 25 meters with most loads and not have a 10" shift in POI with different loads. If I miss a Texas Star or plate rack I'd like to know it's me. Is that too much to ask for?

ETA - And I really don't want to have to have a different SD and range load for each gun. :mad:

[SPDGG]

fwiw/imho: "Apologize in advance, running on fumes, for the sloppy post, but came across this thread so. . . . "

+1 Agree w/ "Shenaniguns".

Many have stated the Gen 4 Glock models shoot better from better lock up than the previous Generations.
I believe this to be case-by-case and more common in current production guns, some not going even a year back.

Not all the Gen 4 pistols sold from the Gen4 release have barrels that have tighter lock up. . . . "Again: My experience - findings".
Maybe that has changed with the latest 2014 production.

The Gen 4 G19s I have handled had the tighter fit from the taller barrel lug. Very Nice for a factory rack grade, but "NOT" a Gun Smith Fit, Bar-Sto/Briley/Older GS Fit KKM, type of fitment/lock-up - Dont expect that from a service pistol/offering anyways.
The Gen4 G17s I have handled had the same dimensions as Gen3 G17s, no difference at all. Latest Gen4 was from earlier this year.

I had the same experience as "Shenaniguns" with the WC "Drop In" G17 SS barrel.

Bar-Sto: My personal go-to for replacement barrels for Glocks: Semi & GS Fit, Semi-Fit majority of the time.
* I've had only 1x Bar-Sto Semi-Fit over the years that didn't fall into the Semi-Fit category, but once fitted/finish reamed shot great/accurate.
* All other Semi-Fit needed "minor" fitting.

imho: I believe the delayed release of a M&P barrel "that increases accuracy/works" is more on the platform than the manufacture.
I'm sure they are able to make an accurate barrel, but something probably is taking the place as the weak link after the tighter "fit/lock up" is put into play. . . . Again, My opinion.
- I know of the LE M&P version that was recently released & seems these have the previous kinks worked out. I'm sure if manufactures can build off this current design instead of the previous variations we would have something sooner than later. Sure its more than just the barrel now, other parts have probably been revised as well.

If I were the barrel manufacture, I'd let the handgun manufacture figure out the right design on their line of products & $$$, before I spent my time/money just making it work.
Think its smart of APEX Tactical & Bar-Sto to not release the barrel if all its going to do is create CS issues & not their standard of gains/return customers have come to expect from both companies.

- I prefer the ergos and trigger on the M&P [after APEX Tactical parts swap] to worked over Glock trigger, but won't buy a M&P till the same availability of parts are available to enhance accuracy. If it comes from the factory all the better.
- Another reason, M&P line doesn't have a G19 comparable model. The M&Pc is not the same IMHO, more like a G26.

fwiw: Main reason for switching to mainly Gen 4 Glocks: The mag release size/reach, small gain for some, huge for others. Yes, I have STG: Short Thumb Gene.

^ Again, all IMHO . . . . and you know what they say about "opinions" ;)

[Savage Hands]

On this note, Hilton Yam recently recommended Briley and Bar Sto oversized match barrels for his Glocks, and Storm Lake for his M&Ps.

Another member here had a fitted Briley with a sample target that was not better than a well shooting Gen 3, Hilton has not experimented with a WC when I asked him via message, many others here as well as Defoor and Tigerswan still endorse WC and KKM.

YMMV

[Savage Hands]

Also I've been checking the barrel fitment on the few dozen or so Glocks I handle each week, it's all over the place in just lock up with the well fitted Gen 4's as tight as the WC I had in my Gen 4 G17. Bruce Gray said he spoke to Chris Edwards of Glock (GSSF creator and Glock factory trainer) and Chris verified that Gen 4 Glocks had their barrels fitted slightly tighter than the Gen 3's. So this is why some here have had some Gen 4 Glocks shooting as tight as 1.5"@25 with good ammo.

[hossb7]

Also I've been checking the barrel fitment on the few dozen or so Glocks I handle each week, it's all over the place in just lock up with the well fitted Gen 4's as tight as the WC I had in my Gen 4 G17. Bruce Gray said he spoke to Chris Edwards of Glock (GSSF creator and Glock factory trainer) and Chris verified that Gen 4 Glocks had their barrels fitted slightly tighter than the Gen 3's. So this is why some here have had some Gen 4 Glocks shooting as tight as 1.5"@25 with good ammo.

Interesting.

I hit 4" at 25 with FMJ which was my personal best. I think with practice it can get tighter.

[BWT]

The threaded barrel is for a full size. What would be the difference between it and the standard barrel for the full size? Wouldn't fitting be the same?

It would be interesting for someone from Wilson Combat to come on here and address the questions. I'm interested to know how they solved the problems when Bar-sto apparently couldn't.

You'd think, but here we are, without the full size barrel. The compact, IIRC never had accuracy issues.

I'm grasping at straws on this one.

[45dotACP]

Well, only my best day of shooting has produced 5 shot head box groups, so I doubt I would benefit much from a match grade barrel other than me being able to shoot lead through my glock. I'm certain most production guns shoot better than I am capable of. Even M&P 9s. And all the people on the public ranges think I'm Bob Lee Swagger.

[Savage Hands]

Interesting.

I hit 4" at 25 with FMJ which was my personal best. I think with practice it can get tighter.

I think so too as you're still new to Glock and you're now polished up internally.

[Savage Hands]

Well, only my best day of shooting has produced 5 shot head box groups, so I doubt I would benefit much from a match grade barrel other than me being able to shoot lead through my glock. I'm certain most production guns shoot better than I am capable of. Even M&P 9s. And all the people on the public ranges think I'm Bob Lee Swagger.


That's a common misconception, I thought that as well until I had some personal guns shoot 2-3" groups standing unsupported at 25yds. So if my gun is only mechanically capable of 3-4" at 25 than I'll never do better than that. I'll take a 1-2" mechanically capable Glock if it doesn't affect reliability.

[45dotACP]

That's a common misconception, I thought that as well until I had some personal guns shoot 2-3" groups standing unsupported at 25yds. So if my gun is only mechanically capable of 3-4" at 25 than I'll never do better than that. I'll take a 1-2" mechanically capable Glock if it doesn't affect reliability.
Hmmm, well maybe I should look at a new barrel...I have been looking for an excuse, but saying I can save 3 bucks per 500 bullets never really seemed a break even proposition.

[hossb7]

I think so too as you're still new to Glock and you're now polished up internally.

Yeah, not bad for 6 weeks of ownership and less than 300 rounds through the gun :cool:

[KeeFus]

You'd think, but here we are, without the full size barrel. The compact, IIRC never had accuracy issues.

I'm grasping at straws on this one.

Here you go: http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Match-Grade-Barrel-9mm-Smith-Wesson-MP-9-425-Stainless/productinfo/689/

Frank Proctor made a post about his barrel this morning on his Way of the Gun FB page saying he is seeing improvement over the stock bbl.

[orionz06]

I'm curious to see if GJM still has any of his bad M&P's and if he's willing to give one of these a shot, as well as what will WC do if 2" or less is not met.

[GJM]

I am pretty well out of them, but my buddy SteveB tried a WC barrel in his 9FS, and it cut group size in half. Will see if he will chine in.

[orionz06]

I am pretty well out of them, but my buddy SteveB tried a WC barrel in his 9FS, and it cut group size in half. Will see if he will chine in.

8" to 4" or 4" to 2"?

[SteveB]

8" to 4" or 4" to 2"?

5" to 2.5"

[Jakus]

Do you mind providing some more details?

When was the pistol manufactured?
What ammo is yielding the best results?
Was the Wilson barrel drop in, or did it require fitting?

[SteveB]

Will check mfg date when I get home, but not an early pistol. I had some early ones that wouldn't reliably shoot 6". Federal 147 grain American Eagle ball. Drop in, no fitting.

[SteveB]

Will check mfg date when I get home, but not an early pistol. I had some early ones that wouldn't reliably shoot 6". Federal 147 grain American Eagle ball. Drop in, no fitting.

May 2013

[mizer67]

Slightly off topic, but since Smith has changed the factory barrels, do they make any difference in accuracy?

I just sent my last 9mm M&P back to the mother ship hoping they do. It's a ~6" gun with the best loads.

[2alpha-down0]

Slightly off topic, but since Smith has changed the factory barrels, do they make any difference in accuracy?

I just sent my last 9mm M&P back to the mother ship hoping they do. It's a ~6" gun with the best loads.

Judging by the old M&P accuracy thread: Maybe yes, maybe no.

[Mercaptan]

Slightly off topic, but since Smith has changed the factory barrels, do they make any difference in accuracy?

I just sent my last 9mm M&P back to the mother ship hoping they do. It's a ~6" gun with the best loads.

I tried replacing an old barrel with the newest gen (as well as locking block) and it did not do anything to tame the group size. 115gr FMJ Federal loads barrel were contained on an 8.5x11 paper at 25 yards rested, while HST 147gr JHP +P and 124gr JHP +P would make 6" groups, regardless of barrel used.

CZ SP-01 on the other hand (shot between the barrels as a control) put out a nice 2.8" group of 10 rounds (best with the 147gr +P). The CZ also has stock mepro iron sights while the M&P has a deltapoint RDS.