Switching Duty Weapons

[TSH]

I apologize if this should be in the Law Enforcement forum, but I thought I might get more input from members here...

I am a fairly new LEO. I have been off probation for a while now, but I still like to consider my options. This is a second career for me, and I tend to take a more thoughtful approach to my job than many of my coworkers. If I am off-base here, or placing emphasis on something that is really not that important, feel free to point it out to me.

I am a member of a large (though not the largest) West Coast Sheriff's Department. Our weapons policy, I am discovering, is incredibly liberal. I can carry just about anything, as long as it is chambered in 9mm, .40, or .45. The department will supply my duty ammo (currently HST, with the heaviest bullet for the caliber I choose). Additionally, they supply the practice ammo, and I can go in weekly to use the range on their dime. Our issued weapon is a Gen 3 G22 and a Safariland ALS holster. Typically, that is what you observe, but I see Sigs, HKs, and 1911s regularly. As I'm sure most of you can attest, most cops are not "gun guys", and will carry whatever is free. Though I have always owned guns, I didn't care about them much, either, until they became one of the tools I rely on.

The Glock I was issued is pretty reliable. I have had a few FTFs, etc. here and there, but nothing that makes me distrust the weapon. I don't currently mount a light on it, but I would like to. Those coworkers that do mount a light often end up switching to a different weapon altogether soon after. I also really like the ALS holster, and insist on staying with that system, unless someone more experienced can make a good case that something else is better.

I qualify with the Glock easily, but my scores with my off-duty weapon are consistently higher. My off-duty weapon is a HK P2000 LEM in 9mm. Originally, I was using a Gen 4 G23 off-duty to maintain similarity between on and off-duty weapons, but I also appendix carry, and I was uncomfortable with carrying a safety-less striker fired pistol that way. I prefer to carry in that position because it is easier for me to conceal a reasonably large pistol.

I am thinking of purchasing a second P2000 and using that as my duty weapon. I can mount a X300 to it, and the ALS holster is available for that pistol. Additionally, it has a track record of reliability. I do not care about the whole 9mm vs. .40 cal debate, as I find it hard to believe there is a meaningful difference between the two, whether I am shooting through car doors or not. I have read Nyeti's opinion about the suitability of the LEM trigger system for law enforcement, and it made a lot of sense to me. The down sides I see for the P2000 are the diminished capacity of the magazines, the compact size of the weapon, and the lack of a safety. The safety is only a issue because of concerns I have regarding the admittedly remote possibility of losing my weapon in a fight. That is part of the reason I like the ALS system so much.

My questions are: 1) would I be better off purchasing a P3000S TDA instead? Safariland does not make a holster for that weapon with a light installed, but I have read that the ALS holster for the Sig P229 with x300 fits the HK like it was made for it, so I think my holster choice is covered. 2) Am I over-emphasizing the safety issue, and does the use of the ALS mitigate the need for a safety the way I think it does?

At the end of the day, I would like my off-duty and on-duty weapons to be as similar as possible.

If there is any angle I am not considering, let me know.

[Dos Cylindros]

I would consider the HK P30L in LEM. Safariland makes a holster for it with a WML. Same trigger as your P2000 and the P30 mags will work in your P2000 for reloads. You would also maintain your 15 round capacity with the P30.

[SamuelBLong]

P30 or P30L would work for you, and they have a good track record. 13 in the P2000 isn't ideal, but it's better than other options.

Yes the ALS system is the way to go. I've moved over to them 100% from the SLS, and in pressure testing my gear, I'm not having any accidental releases of the retention mechanism(s) like I did with the SLS. ALS is also nice cause you don't need to relock any hood while you go hands on. As far as having a safety on the gun to save you in a gun grab... I wouldn't rely on that, or any retention mechanism being the thing to save you at all. A small fixed blade and good tactics is what you need for that situation.

Personally, I carry the same gun, same ammo for EDC as I do when wearing my batman belt. I'll only carry something different if the circumstances dictate... ie gym / fight shorts & a t-shirt at Crossfit, or other situations where I can't have an untucked polo.

[Lon]

P30 or P30L for sure. The gen 3 40s with WML would be the last thing I'd carry. Without a WML, sure. But not with.

If I could, I'd carry a P30 both on and off duty instead of my 229.

[Trooper224]

Sounds like you're taking the right approach. I'd also recommend the P30 as a duty weapon for you. Use the P2000 for off duty use and you should have a good system to work with.

[DocGKR]

How about a G17 or G19?

[wilco423]

...but I have read that the ALS holster for the Sig P229 with x300 fits the HK like it was made for it...

I have heard this as well, but can anyone verify it from personal experience? Safariland makes a 6280 for the P30L with a light, but no ALS series.

[Dos Cylindros]

How about a G17 or G19?

Doc,

I would have recommended the M&P 40 or M&P 9 in my original reply but his initial post made it seem as though he wanted to maintain continuity with his off duty P2000. OP, if you are not set on the HK system, then I would strongly consider the M&P series of guns for a duty weapon. I carried the Glock 22 for the first 12 years of my LE career until I switched to my current department which issues the M&P 40. My previously issued G22 had occasional issues with a weapon mounted light, but I am at nearly 8,000 (an approximation) on my M&P 40 and have never had a malfunction other than one I purposefully induced in training (I did have one dead primer on a round of RA40T that could not be set off by another gun either). The M&P is, in my opinion and experience a much better platform than the Glock (especially in .40).

For the price of an HK, you could buy a full size M&P, along with an M&P compact for off duty and you would be all set. Two guns that can share mags and holsters that have the exact same operating procedures. Food for thought.

[HCM]

Op,

The P2000 is certainly a viable uniformed duty gun. The U.S.Border Patrol and U.S. Customs and Border Protection have issued the P2000 v2 LEM for nearly a decade with very few issues. BORTAC, the USBP "SWAT" team recently adopted the P30L V4 LEM.

Nothing against the HK, I carried a USP C v2 LEM 40 as a duty gun for 8 years, however, if you have access to a Glock 9mm you might want to try one to see if you shoot your HK better than your issued Glock because you shoot HK's better or if its just because you shoot 9mm better than .40.

If you really want a thumb safety, the USP compact is the same size and takes the same mags as the P2000 and can be configured as an LEM with a thumb safety. They make an ALS for it but not with the light as far as I know.

[TSH]

How about a G17 or G19?

This was my original thought. Blue label Glocks are inexpensive, and a gen 4 G22 or 17 will fit in to my existing holster. But I'm still stuck with an off-duty that has no external safety or hammer. Additionally, I seem to shoot that P2000 better. Originally, I thought it was just a matter of recoil difference between 9mm and .40, but the difference existed when shooting a department G17, also. Other than that, I like the Glock, just not for off-duty carry.

Interestingly, I find my wrist doesn't seem to adapt to the Glock grip angle very well. If I dry fire regularly, my sights are lined up, even with my eyes closed. If I go a week or two without practice, however, I start pointing the pistol high. Most of my coworkers don't seem to have that problem, but a few others do. I don't consider this a deal breaker for Glock, however - it just requires a little practice to overcome.

I really appreciate the simplicity and engineering of the Glock, but I am still uncomfortable reholstering it in a aiwb rig. One aspect of the Glock that I really like is the positivity of the trigger reset. I know that shouldn't matter, but I like it nonetheless.

[TSH]

Doc,

I would have recommended the M&P 40 or M&P 9 in my original reply but his initial post made it seem as though he wanted to maintain continuity with his off duty P2000. OP, if you are not set on the HK system, then I would strongly consider the M&P series of guns for a duty weapon. I carried the Glock 22 for the first 12 years of my LE career until I switched to my current department which issues the M&P 40. My previously issued G22 had occasional issues with a weapon mounted light, but I am at nearly 8,000 (an approximation) on my M&P 40 and have never had a malfunction other than one I purposefully induced in training (I did have one dead primer on a round of RA40T that could not be set off by another gun either). The M&P is, in my opinion and experience a much better platform than the Glock (especially in .40).

For the price of an HK, you could buy a full size M&P, along with an M&P compact for off duty and you would be all set. Two guns that can share mags and holsters that have the exact same operating procedures. Food for thought.

It is interesting that you bring that up. Another Deputy was using a M&P9 until last week, when he switched his weapon to a USPf 9. He offered to lend me his M&P for a day so I could use it at the range, and I told him I would like to take him up on it. He spoke highly of the pistol, he just likes the USP better.

[pablo]

If you're going to carry your own duty pistol, you should definitely have a spare. If you get in a shooting and your primary takes a timeout in the property room (or you break it), you can break out your spare gun or get issued mystery piece that has an unknown history.

If you have 2 p2000's that'll simplify duty gear problems if you lose your primary.

[TSH]

If your going to carry your own duty pistol, you should definitely have a spare. If you get in a shooting and your primary takes a timeout in the property room (or you break it), you can break out your spare gun or get issued mystery piece that has an unknown history.

If you have 2 p2000's that'll simplify duty gear problems if you lose your primary.

I did some research on this before I started this topic. During my research, I read a post by DocGKR in which he recommended three of whatever pistol you choose, along with a bunch of magazines. One for carry, one for training, and one for backup. I figure I could use one for duty, one for off-duty, and one as a back-up for the other two.

[secondstoryguy]

I love the P30 series and shot one for years but since moving into LE work I've gone back to Glocks. I'm a strong believer in scenario based training and all sim guns are usually Glock so the sim gun fits into my holster. Parts are easy to come by and chances are if I have to use a fellow officers gun I will be familiar with it. With the Glock also comes more holster(especially with light options) and accessory selection as well as the ability to easily obtain parts from the department armorer.

[DannyZRC]

Not an LEO, not even a hot-shit pistolero.

If you want a safety, you can get the M&P series in full size and compact with a thumb safety. I owned such a pistol (full size .40), and while it was nice I ultimately got rid of it because I'm particular and wanted a decocker. The safety on the M&P is pretty limp from the factory, but there are guides on what to remove and file down to make it more positive.

I don't know how complicated the interaction is between a retention holster and a thumb safety, it gives me some pause. I like my safety, but I don't plan to make much/any use of 'secret handshake' holsters.

at some point HK imported LEM P30LS pistols, but I don't know how the supply is of safety + LEM guns (though you can convert any TDA P30/P2000 to LEM, but not vice versa).

USP/USPc/HK45/HK45c can all be converted to LEM, with or without safety.

lots of options, but pretty easy decision trees.

[KevH]

I'm LE in the SF Bay Area and here is my 2 cents for what it's worth...

I would stick to Glock.

You work for a Glock agency which means they likely have parts and armorers that can deal with it. Glock's factory rep out here (Larry Ford) is on top of things which means you will get the attention you need (if you need any at all). It also means any SIMS guns, red guns and other training junk will fit your holster and if you are in an OIS and they take your gun for a couple weeks your department issued Glock will fit your holster. I could go on and on, but I think you get my drift...

H&K LE service on the west coast just plain sucks. If you want more info on that then PM me. You will get very little or no support from them especially if you're in NorCal, Oregon or WA (they're better with SoCal). If you choose to buy an H&K I would echo other folks' recommendations of buying a second to use as a spare when you send the other one back to the factory to get it serviced. Don't get me wrong, I like H&K's prodcut a lot. They just don't take care of folks the way Glock and S&W do out here.

I would opt for a Glock 17 and carry it in a 6360 with a Surefire X300 and DG switch. That's my current setup and I love it. If you have trouble getting the DG switch into the holster use a heat gun or hairdryer for a bit to warm it up and then stick the gun (unloaded) into it with the light attached. It will fit perfect after that.

If you're uncomfortable with AIWB then carry a different way. I carry at the 3:00 to 4:00 position IWB or OWB all the time.

[BJJ]

If you're uncomfortable with AIWB then carry a different way. I carry at the 3:00 to 4:00 position IWB or OWB all the time.

In my opinion, this should get said a lot more than it does.

[psalms144.1]

In my opinion, this should get said a lot more than it does.And a third to this - I think we fall in love with the idea of a "best" (platform, caliber, carry mode) and then make all kinds of adaptations to make that "best" thing work. I get the advantages of AIWB, but, if someone issued me a G22, I would carry it on duty, and have a G19 as an "off duty." If you're not comfortable with AIWB with a Glock, but everything else about the Glock is OK, then, maybe AIWB should drop off...

FWIW, I went through a "Glock Hating" period when I had five bad G19s in a row. I went to the P30/P2000 for several years ("V4" LEM). I initially found them to be significantly more accurate on low probability targets, but, frankly, the P30 was just "bigger" enough that it didn't conceal well for me in light clothing, and the LEM trigger never "clicked" for me on the P30. The P2000 was better all the way around, but, it's heavier than the G19, sight and holster options are limited, and you give up capacity. Then, when I got back to working drills off the "square range," I found that I simply couldn't shoot either HK as accurately AT SPEED as I could the G19.

I ended up back with Glocks, and currently carry a G19 on and off duty. After a year of dedicated shooting, I find that I'm every bit as accurate with the G19 as I am with either the P30 or P2K.

Again, YMMV, but I've been down the HK road, and, while I still love them, they're gathering dust in my safe right now...

[DocGKR]

KevH's comments are on target, so to speak. Right now on the west coast, going with a 9 mm Glock or an M&P is probably the best option.

[JonInWA]

I will also echo the recommendations for a 9mm Glock. With advances in cartridge/bullet technology, you'll get excellent terminal performance with a 9mm, coupled with easier to control recoil/muzzle flip, and greater on-board cartridge capacity (and slightly lighter weight).

I'd suggest you take a hard, objective and empirical look at a G17, G19 or G34, in either Gen 3 or Gen4.

Best, Jon

[1986s4]

If you are considering striker fired and like HK then there is a long thread in the autoloaders section on the new SFA HK.

[Rich]

P30 or P30L for sure. The gen 3 40s with WML would be the last thing I'd carry. Without a WML, sure. But not with.

If I could, I'd carry a P30 both on and off duty instead of my 229.


What Gen is your P229 and caliber?

I have 2 pistols HK P30S V3 9mm and a still in excellent shape a Gen 1 1998 P229 in 40S&W.

I favor my P229 for a few reasons.

But I would take a P30 or better yet P30L over the NIB P229R with -1 slide any day.

Next pistol will either be a Sig MK25 or HK P30L V3 9mm (either way the gen 1 P229 will be kept until it kabooms)

[Rich]

I will also echo the recommendations for a 9mm Glock. With advances in cartridge/bullet technology, you'll get excellent terminal performance with a 9mm, coupled with easier to control recoil/muzzle flip, and greater on-board cartridge capacity (and slightly lighter weight).

I'd suggest you take a hard, objective and empirical look at a G17, G19 or G34, in either Gen 3 or Gen4.

Best, Jon


Never shot a G19 but have the G23 and didn't care for the recoil at all.

Do you think the G19 has less recoil than the P30?

The softest shooting 9mm that I've shot to date was a S&W 5906. BTW I don't care for the impulse of the 147gr loads in my P30S. I much prefer the Standard Pressure 124gr .