What could/should USPSA do to attract the average CCW holder

[Jared]

Just like the title says, what could or should they do. I've been thinking about this a bit due to a couple blog posts out there and some stuff in some internet threads.

First things first, I personally would not want USPSA to "dumb down" the sport just to bring in membership dollars. The fact that USPSA is the harder of the two big handgun sports is one of the reasons I chose it. I do think they could play with how matches are structured a bit. I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, but I believe that internationally, IPSC has a 3-2-1 rule when it comes to course design, where there is supposed to be a 3 short course, 2 medium course, 1 long field course ratio. I could be wrong on the specifics there, but I like the idea in theory.

Say for a local 6 stage match. 1 classifier stage, 3 stages of 15 shots or less, 1 20-25 shot stage, and one 30-32 shot stage. I think this accomplishes a few things. It could help to combat the notion that USPSA is "track and field with a pistol." In the DVD "Training to Win," Ben Stoeger showed like 3 smaller stages that were still solid shooting tests and gave a shooter options, but didn't require a great deal of movement. I feel that there is a lot of technical skill that can be tested in 15 rounds or less, and that making the average stage smaller wouldn't necessarily make the sport easier. It could alter the perception though. I vividly remember the butterflies I experienced the first time I faced a 32 shot stage, so this idea could be just my personal experience/bias talking.

I also feel that USPSA should put a heavy marketing emphasis on the fact that it is a harder sport. Get that out there. Talk it up. Point out that a number of the very best shooters in the world are USPSA GM's, and explain to the masses that you can shoot with, and learn from, these shooters. Most people that are going to be willing to take up shooting matches regularly, in my opinion, want to get better. From a marketing standpoint, the amount of talent that is present in USPSA could be a major attraction, if marketed properly.

Last, put a heavy emphasis on Production division. Everyone has heard the "racegun" stereotype that follows USPSA around. We have probably all heard that in order to be competitive at the sport, you need a "racegun." I say, fight it. Get it out there that there is a stock gun division. Get it out there that some of the very best shooters in USPSA compete largely in Production. Yes, you do need more mags than IDPA, and even with the stage ideas I presented above, that would still be true. However, I don't think the idea of adding a couple mags and mag pouches is that daunting of an idea for the average shooter. But the large perception that you need a 2011 that costs three grand, that is daunting.

These are just my own ideas. I could be way off base here, as a lot of this stuff is based on things I heard or felt before I ever shot a match. Again, I don't want to see the technical aspect of the sport dumbed down. I'd love to hear some ideas from others.

[ranger]

I ran a small USPSA club in the Savannah GA area for several years before we lost the range to development. I found that shooters either like USPSA type shooting or the do not. Unfortunately, some new shooters come to a match and 1) immediately ASSUME they have to have a JEDI light saber to compete or 2) they do not shoot well on their first try and never come back. I think Production was a great move and helps tremendously.

At the other extreme, I have seen new shooters come once and get hooked - they immediately start shopping for that expensive custom pistol that they know in their hearts will make them the next GM while I BEG them to shoot what they have or set up in Production with a G17/G34/M&P/etc to no avail. Soon they were deep in money into a sport but got disillusioned when very expensive gear did not transform them into the club champion the next match.

Also saw a trend of the "toy of the year" - we had a few shooters who went from one expensive hobby to the next on a yearly basis. Offshore fishing followed by USPSA followed by Sporting Clays followed by Harleys followed by Collector Cars, etc. I got some great deals on used guns from these shooters.

[Jared]

Crap, my original post came off as more of a statement of fact, rather than a question with some ideas that I had. That's what I get for writing a long post first thing in the morning with no coffee.

Ranger, I do very much agree that people either like that style of shooting or they don't. The thing that bothers me is that I see a few things, some real and some are misconceptions, that keep people from even trying it at all.

I heard so much of the "track and field" and "racegun" bit that I originally was thinking I would only be interested in IDPA, but even then, I doubted there was any shooting like that taking place close to me. It was a combination of some posters here opening my eyes to what USPSA really was, and hearing through the grapevine that there was a club close to me, that led me to where I am.

[Chris Rhines]

The thing that bothers me is that I see a few things, some real and some are misconceptions, that keep people from even trying it at all.

This is true, and it used to bother the kittens out of me. What I eventually realized, is that the vast majority of Americans have a near-impenetrable list of excuses for not trying something new. Your typical CCW holder hears that USPSA is all about $4000 Open blasters, or that you spend all day standing around to shoot for two minutes, and it just reinforces his natural predilection to plant his ass on the couch, drink beer, and watch TV.

I personally *LOVE* the idea of more clubs adopting the 3-2-1 stage layout. I get a little tired of endless 32-round field courses with no interesting shooting problems. But I don't think that such a rule would do much to attract new shooters.

Half-day matches might help. This wouldn't work for every club, but Peacemaker generally does A.M. and P.M. squads for their pistol matches (actually, they usually do two different pistol matches per day, A.M. and P.M. both - you can shoot IDPA in the morning and Action Pistol in the afternoon, if you're nuts...) It's a little easier to sneak away for half a day of shooting, then spend the other half-day with the family, etc.

I dunno, maybe have some open-to-the-public 'This is Practical Shooting' days, complete with demos, manufacturer booths, and USPSA membership applications? Peacemaker did something like that last month - a .22LR 3-gun match with additional long-range rifle, a bunch of FNH toys to demo, like that. I didn't make it out, but by all accounts it was pretty successful.

[ranger]

I rarely shoot IDPA or USPSA any more because of the time involved. The stand around all day to shoot for a couple of minutes you mention above is an issue. I generally go to a private range that is set up for the action type shooting and practice versus competing any more.

[PPGMD]

Though I think that having more small and medium courses would be better, I think USPSA has an image problem.

Due to how things operated in the past, we've allowed our detractors to paint USPSA/IPSC as a race gun only sport. If you don't have a $5,000 gun you are going to lose. Our detractors, either purposefully or through ignorance, haven't stayed abreast of the changed within USPSA to create divisions that allow virtually every gun to have a division where it can compete in with some evenness.

Another problem is that our matches typically happen at ranges in the middle of no where, so we don't get people that walk by and say "Hmm that looks fun maybe I should try it."

Now one way off the top of my head, would be to have booths at other more open to the public events. Like GSSF matches, gun shows, and such. Emphasize that as long as your gun is 9mm or over, and you have some basic equipment you can compete. That kind of stuff.

[nwhpfan]

USPSA was not meant to be about CCW - unless CCW was faster, better, etc.... I don't think they "should" do anything to attract CCW necessarily. A philosophy of USPSA is "Freestyle" and that carries over to what the shooter gets out of participation. Essentially the shooter can attempt too, and take away from their participation whatever they want. Do you want to shoot your G19 appendix and pie corners and treat openings like threats, go for it and have a good time doing it.... Do you want to shoot all targets 2 to the body 1 to the head...go for it. You can even get your like minded pals to shoot things the same way, even give yourselves special rules and at the end see how you all shot.... that's all fine. Side rules, inside game, all allowed and encouraged... The freestyle attitude attracts many shooters as it is.

But USPSA has a rule book and within it division, etc. Not everyone will be completely happy. Make one happy in this area, make 2 unhappy at the change.

USPSA is always looking at ways to attract new shooters and a huge change occurred this year with revolver rules so it's not unheard of, but there had been a lot of communication to the BOD that this change was needed.

I know of 1 person who thinks USPSA should have a "defense" division where LEO's and CCW could shoot their carry gear and not be bumped to a different division albeit for gear placement or minor rule difference. But there are other options

My local club used to do a concealed carry version once a year where everyone had to carry concealed (it became somewhat absurd with open guys wearing big vest to conceal .38 supercomps with Cmore sights, but it was an attempt to appeal to those that wanted this challenge); another club in the section does a night match - and my club also does a outlaw match now with all sorts of local rules... My clubs "IDPA" is so far away from "official", and I know many clubs are making local allowance for things IDPA would not allow.

You may consider working with your local club and coming up with your own game that suites you and your like minded pals. I've heard some people have done that with success..

Good luck.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The average CCW type probably never heard of USPSA or IDPA.

They have no interest in training. Most don't even carry consistently.

Their carry gun is inappropriate without major match changes that would a tremendous hassle to organize. Shooting 20 or 30 rounds from an LCP or 642 would be something to see. Yes, skilled folks do this. Claude does quite well. I've done it with J frames every once in awhile for grins.

IDPA is a gentler intro to competition and more carry gun friendly - if you carry a double stack something.

In my area we are actually starting up a specific carry/bug gun match - 3 strings of 5 shots per stage with something buggy or pocket carry.

I think many men don't compete or train as they don't get the hook into them and are scared to look like a doofus. A man should be a great fighter and lover - be able to fix a car, blah,blah. Thus, they don't have the ego strength to come out and not be tops. Others of us get hooked and want to learn and do better.

To conclude - you need specific matches outside of USPSA typical standards and you need guys who try it.

Getting women to matches is a somewhat different issue and should be discuss but in this vein, I was aiming at the typical male who talks the gun talk and just shoots paper poorly.

[BJJ]

I rarely shoot IDPA or USPSA any more because of the time involved. The stand around all day to shoot for a couple of minutes you mention above is an issue.

This is my major problem with shooting IDPA or USPSA matches these days. 5 hours of time, not including travel, to shoot 6 stages is ridiculous. If the matches could be kept to 4 hours I would be a lot more enthusiastic.

That being said, I enjoy shooting both sports but I think I prefer USPSA. It didn't used to bother me, but now at IDPA matches I get annoyed with the scenario setup where I am apparently being confronted 12 bad guys trying to rob me.

I'm not sure why but in my area there are numerous IDPA clubs and only one USPSA club that I know of.

I think just trying to get people out to shoot USPSA once would be a good start. It is a lot of fun.

[LOKNLOD]

Half-day matches might help. This wouldn't work for every club, but Peacemaker generally does A.M. and P.M. squads for their pistol matches (actually, they usually do two different pistol matches per day, A.M. and P.M. both - you can shoot IDPA in the morning and Action Pistol in the afternoon, if you're nuts...) It's a little easier to sneak away for half a day of shooting, then spend the other half-day with the family, etc.


This, this, this! It's hard to carve a whole day out to go stand around on the range all day for a total of 3 minutes worth of shooting.

If I could do a half day event, I could shoot 10x more matches.

It would also be a lot less of an investment for newbies to come check out a match that way.

[jetfire]

USPSA has a vision and messaging problem. IDPA clearly says "we are the sport for new shooters and CCW people." 3Gun clearly says "we are the extreme shooting sport" and Bianchi Cup says "we are the classy, premiere pistol match."

USPSA doesn't really market, which is bad in and of itself, but worse than that they don't even know how to brand themselves. I agree that they should absolutely embrace the message that they're the premiere practical pistol sport, because in general USPSA is harder and more challenging to shoot than IDPA. If anything, I think they should attempt to brand themselves as IndyCar to IDPA's go-kart races. Say "this is where the big kids play" and be honest about it.

[jetfire]

This, this, this! It's hard to carve a whole day out to go stand around on the range all day for a total of 3 minutes worth of shooting.

If I could do a half day event, I could shoot 10x more matches.

It would also be a lot less of an investment for newbies to come check out a match that way.

When I was living in the PNW, the range I shot at would have a 50 round, 3-4 stage match every Tuesday night. Show up at 5:30, shoot until 8:30, then go have beers with your friends. It was pretty awesome, actually. And I realized after I moved away that it was a pretty decent way to keep my skills sharp, because even though it was small round counts, shooting every week under match conditions really goes a long way to preventing rust.

[Trooper224]

When I was living in the PNW, the range I shot at would have a 50 round, 3-4 stage match every Tuesday night. Show up at 5:30, shoot until 8:30, then go have beers with your friends. It was pretty awesome, actually. And I realized after I moved away that it was a pretty decent way to keep my skills sharp, because even though it was small round counts, shooting every week under match conditions really goes a long way to preventing rust.

Agreed. I shoot in a Bullseye league every Monday night. It's a short fifty round course (25yds) and it's not action related shooting, but I've found it to be an excellent way to keep my fundamentals sharp. The same range has an IDPA league every Thursday and if that particular group wasn't such a complete tool shed I'd do that too.

[rob_s]

What could/should USPSA do to attract the average CCW holder.

Nothing. Why should they?

[Drang]

What could/should USPSA do to attract the average CCW holder

I doubt there's anything they can do. The "average CCW holder" has a gun and a box of ammo, maybe one spare mag (if it came with the gun), and either the cheap holster that came with the gun, or, as Tamara has written, an Uncle Mike's "sausage sack". And probably only carries when he's "going somewhere I might need it."

[PPGMD]

When I was living in the PNW, the range I shot at would have a 50 round, 3-4 stage match every Tuesday night. Show up at 5:30, shoot until 8:30, then go have beers with your friends. It was pretty awesome, actually. And I realized after I moved away that it was a pretty decent way to keep my skills sharp, because even though it was small round counts, shooting every week under match conditions really goes a long way to preventing rust.

I know a few of the clubs that actually have a range in the city that do that.

Over in Tampa/St Pete area, WAC has 4 stages of USPSA Tuesday, and Friday night.

In Dallas at DPC they used to have Tuesday night matches late spring through summer. It is too bad they stopped doing it. There is also a club that does IDPA sunday nights at another range.

[orionz06]

USPSA has a vision and messaging problem. IDPA clearly says "we are the sport for new shooters and CCW people." 3Gun clearly says "we are the extreme shooting sport" and Bianchi Cup says "we are the classy, premiere pistol match."

USPSA doesn't really market, which is bad in and of itself, but worse than that they don't even know how to brand themselves. I agree that they should absolutely embrace the message that they're the premiere practical pistol sport, because in general USPSA is harder and more challenging to shoot than IDPA. If anything, I think they should attempt to brand themselves as IndyCar to IDPA's go-kart races. Say "this is where the big kids play" and be honest about it.

Interesting summation, and I agree 100%.

[Fourtrax]

I am, as I get older, starting to become a fan of the classic match set up. Which is something like 2,2,1.... Or some such ratio. Smaller courses with good design can lend themselves as better opportunities for instruction, especially for movement. In addition, they are generally shooting contests, not foot races.

It was popular for awhile that everything be 32 rounds, but I see this changing. In addition, I think this is a good thing.

Now as to what USPSA can do? Hmmm, not much.

Fact is we are the premiere shooting sport. Tacticools, mall ninjas, camo campers, .... Need not apply.

CCW shooters can and should find every USPSA match within driving distance and attend. Period. Nothing teaches free thinking and high speed gun craft like learning to shoot USPSA. Momma ain't gonna hold your hands at our matches and she ain't gonna be there in that critical moment when, GOD, forbid, you have to use a firearm.

Despite some thinking, SPEED is a tactic, along with fast critical thinking and accuracy. USPSA has all of that and more.

CCW holders...........get your gear and find us,.......also we aren't the premiere shooting sport for just shooting, we have the best people.

[YVK]

USPSA was not meant to be about CCW.... I don't think they "should" do anything to attract CCW necessarily. A philosophy of USPSA is "Freestyle" and that carries over to what the shooter gets out of participation.

Agree,



Nothing. Why should they?

and agree.

There is already one shooting sport that kittens up its content by the "real life orientation" of a pretense, and resultant contrived rules etc. USPSA should stay as far away from this as possible.

As far as marketing is concerned, good luck to them.

[Jared]

I am, as I get older, starting to become a fan of the classic match set up. Which is something like 2,2,1.... Or some such ratio. Smaller courses with good design can lend themselves as better opportunities for instruction, especially for movement. In addition, they are generally shooting contests, not foot races.

It was popular for awhile that everything be 32 rounds, but I see this changing. In addition, I think this is a good thing.

Now as to what USPSA can do? Hmmm, not much.

Fact is we are the premiere shooting sport. Tacticools, mall ninjas, camo campers, .... Need not apply.

CCW shooters can and should find every USPSA match within driving distance and attend. Period. Nothing teaches free thinking and high speed gun craft like learning to shoot USPSA. Momma ain't gonna hold your hands at our matches and she ain't gonna be there in that critical moment when, GOD, forbid, you have to use a firearm.

Despite some thinking, SPEED is a tactic, along with fast critical thinking and accuracy. USPSA has all of that and more.

CCW holders...........get your gear and find us,.......also we aren't the premiere shooting sport for just shooting, we have the best people.


Fourtrax, I agree with what you are saying, I really do. I am also certainly NOT talking about changing the rules to try to make USPSA tactical. That is the very opposite of what I want.

My main question here is how can the organization market itself in a way that does away with the largely false preconceived notions that so many have about USPSA. I know you've heard them. That's what I started this thread to discuss.

I did suggest that the current trend toward more small courses is a good thing, IMO. I don't feel that a short stage has to be, or even should be, just 3 10 yard targets. There's a lot of shooting that can be tested in 15 rounds or so.

[Jared]

USPSA has a vision and messaging problem. IDPA clearly says "we are the sport for new shooters and CCW people." 3Gun clearly says "we are the extreme shooting sport" and Bianchi Cup says "we are the classy, premiere pistol match."

USPSA doesn't really market, which is bad in and of itself, but worse than that they don't even know how to brand themselves. I agree that they should absolutely embrace the message that they're the premiere practical pistol sport, because in general USPSA is harder and more challenging to shoot than IDPA. If anything, I think they should attempt to brand themselves as IndyCar to IDPA's go-kart races. Say "this is where the big kids play" and be honest about it.

Indy car vs. go-kart was kind of where I was going when I was talking about the difficulty and talent level present in USPSA, so I definitely agree there. USPSA IS the premier practical pistol sport. That's what's rubbing me when almost every time I see competition being discussed, it's some other sport, unless the discussion is taking place on a forum (or blog) where there's a decent number of USPSA shooters and members present.

Honestly, I do wish they did more and better marketing, particularly where it comes to the fact that they do have a division for mostly stock, readily available guns.

I understand that participation is up at the club level, and I've definitely noticed it at the local matches I have been to. Attendance at my main local is up close to 50%. I like it. Every new shooter that I've talked in to coming with me has spent the largest part of their day at the range with an ear to ear grin. I'm just trying to see if there's a way that the organization itself can do a better job getting the word out to the masses.

[YVK]

My main question here is how can the organization market itself in a way that with the largely false preconceived notions that so many have about USPSA. I know you've heard them. That's what I started this thread to discuss.

If your "target" audience is CCW crowd, then I am not sure that "race, raceguns and racegear" is necessarily a preconceived notion that deters CCW'ers. IDPA's argument of "there's no walk through and stage planning in real life" is both valid and powerful for newbs aspiring to carry. Then they come and see people run around with exposed dropped and offset holsters and bullets out pouches, and it is not surprising they can't identify with it, 'cause it ain't notion but a reality.

[Fourtrax]

Well, too bad for them I say.

You see, USPSA has these things called DIVISIONS, I don't believe anyone with half a brain comes and sees a match and then can't find something relatable.

I do believe those with "half a brain" repeat nonsense and bull crap. That's why I know that if CCW holders come to visit a USPSA match with an open mind, they will stay. It's just too much freedom to pass up. Plus when you watch an experienced production shooter smoke a draw and rap up an 8 shot classifier in under 3.5 seconds you are gonna want that skill. That is, if you have half a brain.

Therein lies the problem with some CCW/IDPA types, ........USPSA is EGO crushing.

.

So again, drive to USPSA, you'll never look back.

[JAD]

I stopped shooting USPSA as a new shooter when IDPA got rolling, and was very active until the polos showed up. I went back at one point and shot some club uspsa matches. The same thing that drove me away from IDPA was there in spades -- rules lawyers, gear whores, and the curious sort of Fudd who keeps his race gun unloaded in his safe and *doesn't own another pistol.*

Unfortunately I don't think you can get rid of that element. I think it's drawn by the nature of everybody's a winner competition.


I would say it's just me, but it's all of my friends too. For all of us, it's completely off putting.

That's ok though -- as was said above, we 'need not apply.'

[YVK]

That's why I know that if CCW holders come to visit a USPSA match with an open mind, they will stay.

My experience is that, if both sports are equally available, they come to a USPSA match, say WTF, go join IDPA, shoot some matches, say WTF, and go back to shooting USPSA. And that specifics of local clubs largely override philosophical preferences. But that's just my experience.

[cclaxton]

Move to TIME+ Scoring, and dump the sponsored shirts, provide opportunities for use of cover, and stop making fun of people (Or orgs) who aren't as great a shooter as YOU...that is not aimed at anyone in particular....just saying...plenty of ego going around in USPSA. The "EGO crushing comment" is a perfect example of the arrogance that scares people away. Learn to be good coaches.
Cody

[Glenn E. Meyer]

No fancy shirts. Nothing like some of the physiques wrapped up in form fitting shirts in black and yellow that make you look like a bumble bee! Form fitting is not for most of the shooters I see. Yuk!

Clubs can have egos - that's true of cameras,coins, cycles, and guns. Jerks are jerks. Luckily, the San Antonio clubs are pretty mellow, for the most part. One club, did have a religious war over stupid management. Quit that one.

[PPGMD]

Move to TIME+ Scoring,

No, hit factor scoring provides a good balance between speed and accuracy.


and dump the sponsored shirts,

Why, if the sponsors allow you to pay for your shooting, they are going to want something out of it? Besides which I see almost as many jerseys running around other shooting sports as I see at a USPSA match. Heck I saw a group with jerseys at a GSSF match.


provide opportunities for use of cover,

You can already, you will lose if you do so, but there are no rules prohibited you from doing tactical shooting as long as you stay in the shooting area. Heck you can also shoot outside the shooting area if you wish, but you will get one of the rare USPSA fingers.


and stop making fun of people (Or orgs) who aren't as great a shooter as YOU...that is not aimed at anyone in particular....just saying...plenty of ego going around in USPSA. The "EGO crushing comment" is a perfect example of the arrogance that scares people away. Learn to be good coaches.

If you aren't a douche that needs a good ego deflating, there is plenty of coaching available to you at a USPSA match.

USPSA is only ego crushing to those that have an opinion of their shooting ability beyond what they can actually do. After seeing how good others are, there are two courses call them gamers and quit, or endeavor to improve you shooting skills. IDPA can be just as ego crushing when you watch the really good master/DM level shooters go through a stage.

[Joe Mamma]

What do people mean when they say 3-2-1 or 2-2-1 stage layouts?

I think the biggest problem with USPSA (not attracting the average CCW holder) is that there are too many rules. To make things worse, the rules change and new rules are added frequently (in a relative sense). It's like the federal government creating more an more laws and regulations all the time . . . I don't know how big the USPSA rule book is now, but it's big. It's very difficult for a relatively new shooter, an experienced shooter who is relatively new to competition shooting, or even the occasional competition shooter to get comfortable and competent in USPSA matches.

I know there are people who will say, "I only shoot 1 or 2 USPSA matches a year, and I am fine at those matches." But those are people who are on brianenos.com all the time and constantly thinking about matches, stages, techniques, new rules, how to game stages, etc. There's nothing wrong with that. But that is definitely not the average CCW holder, and it puts the average CCW holder at a significant disadvantage.

I think we are past the point where people think of USPSA as something dominated by race guns. From my experience (and maybe it's just the people I run into), it's generally the older people who have that prejudice. Most relatively new or young shooters I talk to don't have that image of USPSA. Maybe it's due to the relatively recent popularity of USPSA's Production division.

Joe Mamma

[ST911]

If your local USPSA club's top shooters max out at B or C class, is there a lot of "premier" or "ego crushing" anything going on? Having shot in a few of those, guys shooting production or limited in practical gear can remain quite competitive, and the matches have a very regular-guy tone overall. Even with some space guns and polyester shirts.

What are the stats for distribution of classifications, number of divisions, etc across clubs? Anyone keep them?

[PPGMD]

What do people mean when they say 3-2-1 or 2-2-1 stage layouts?

It refers the number of short and medium courses for every long course.


I think the biggest problem with USPSA (not attracting the average CCW holder) is that there are too many rules. To make things worse, the rules change and new rules are added frequently (in a relative sense). It's like the federal government creating more an more laws and regulations all the time . . . I don't know how big the USPSA rule book is now, but it's big. It's very difficult for a relatively new shooter, an experienced shooter who is relatively new to competition shooting, or even the occasional competition shooter to get comfortable and competent in USPSA matches.

Yes there are more rules, but for the most part they are rules that the average shooter doesn't need to know about. And USPSA rule changes are announced at least a year ahead of time before they are enforced, that gives plenty of time to fix issues and even have a rule completely overruled (like the production trigger pull weight rule).

[Jared]

Move to TIME+ Scoring, and dump the sponsored shirts, provide opportunities for use of cover, and stop making fun of people (Or orgs) who aren't as great a shooter as YOU...that is not aimed at anyone in particular....just saying...plenty of ego going around in USPSA. The "EGO crushing comment" is a perfect example of the arrogance that scares people away. Learn to be good coaches.
Cody

I definitely would not want the scoring system changed. I think the hit factor scoring system is one of the best things about USPSA.

As far as the sponsor shirts, I don't get the issue. I've seen so many shooters wearing those that nowadays, I just don't even notice. Even before my first match, I was hip to the fact that a fancy Tech Wear jersey don't necessarily mean the dude wearing it is a god. Today, I think of a sponsor jersey the same way I think of the t-shirts my employer give out every so often. Simply, it's just a shirt with your employers logo on it, nothing more.

One can use cover as much as they like in USPSA, although I do agree that maybe most people don't realize it.

I've never been to a USPSA club where I would describe the match officials as arrogant. I've met a shooter or two that maybe was, but in all honesty, I meet far more arrogant people in my daily life than I ever have on a range. I don't think I've ever seen the USPSA organization make fun of another shooting organization. I could have missed it, so I'm not saying it's never happened, but I ain't seen it. Now as far as individual shooters ripping other org's, I don't see how the USPSA as a whole can control that.

[JV_]

As far as the sponsor shirts, I don't get the issue.Neither do I.

And what they don't need is a rule book littered with large sections focused around things like the dress code.

[Jared]

If your local USPSA club's top shooters max out at B or C class, is there a lot of "premier" or "ego crushing" anything going on? Having shot in a few of those, guys shooting production or limited in practical gear can remain quite competitive, and the matches have a very regular-guy tone overall. Even with some space guns and polyester shirts.

What are the stats for distribution of classifications, number of divisions, etc across clubs? Anyone keep them?

I don't know the stats across clubs, and honestly wouldn't know where to find them.

As far as the top classed shooters at a club go, that can really vary. In some areas, Limited may be the most talent stacked division, in others it could be Production. I know at the locals I've shot, Limited usually had a deeper talent pool. Interestingly enough, when I was at our sectional match last year, the Production division brought in 4 GM's, while I think Limited topped out with an M.

I would roughly estimate that a reasonably well attended club probably has at least an A in Open, Limited, and Production. How ego crushing a shooter finds shooting against a solid A class shooter is really on them. I never had my ego crushed by shooting USPSA. I have learned a lot about where I really stacked up, but I don't consider that crushing, just motivating.

[rob_s]

t specifics of local clubs largely override philosophical preferences.

This is the truth of the single biggest reason any one person shoots one game over another. All the rest of the douche-y defense of a choice based on feelings is just that.

You can't market that.

[Fourtrax]

Funny, I hear a bunch of sour grapes. Like a couple of grade school kids bickering.

First, USPSA rules are pretty simple and frankly, don't change very often. I think it's difficult to get a damn rule change myself.

Second, I wear a sponsor shirt.......drops my times by 5% ..........low drag baby. If some shooters wearing fancy shirts scare you off, well then that brings me to ........

Third, do you know how to tell if you have a fragile ego? I sure do.

Fourth, cover is everywhere in USPSA matches, I know of IDPA shooters who have a blast shooting our matches and using our cover. We just don't force you to use cover. Basically, it's your PIE, eat it how you want, we won't be subjective.

USPSA can probably market a little better in some regards, but for some, as with all things, it would never be enough.

Grab your gear and drive to us, free thinking shooters will have a blast.

[YVK]

Grab your gear and drive to us.

You too. Come show some technical superiority and crush some egos, it will be fun for all of us.

[Mr_White]

I know of 1 person who thinks USPSA should have a "defense" division where LEO's and CCW could shoot their carry gear and not be bumped to a different division albeit for gear placement or minor rule difference. But there are other options

I have envisioned 'Duty and Carry' Division. It would be an amalgam of Open, Limited, and Production. Production-type guns, perhaps a little more restrictive than current Production rules allow. Mag pouches and holsters don't have to be behind the hip. Concealment or retention gear required. Magazines filled to capacity, with some limit on length of magazine. Lasers, WML, and slide-mounted mini RDS allowed. Minor scoring for everyone.

Frankly, I have become largely convinced that, as cool as I think this hypothetical division would be, it's completely unnecessary. Almost no one would shoot that division, at least initially. Any of the people who would fit 'better' in Duty and Carry are already able to shoot an existing division if they want (Open, Limited, Limited-10, or Production.) I'm sure it is a major undertaking to create a new Division and it should be done pretty conservatively.

I have brought maybe ~8-10 new shooters to USPSA. They aren't new shooters, they already do defensive pistol training, but they are new to competitive shooting. They really enjoy it, and don't have a problem playing the game straight up under the existing rules. They pretty much all shoot Production, though also Limited or Limited-10 occasionally. I sold them on trying it on the basis of technical challenge and problem-solving stages solely according to their own wishes instead of someone else's vision of tactics. We already practice tactics according to our own views in defensive training all the time. We don't need that from a competition.


Heck I saw a group with jerseys at a GSSF match.

Lol, I am the captain of a GSSF team. We have polos though.


Yes there are more rules, but for the most part they are rules that the average shooter doesn't need to know about.

I agree. It seems like there are fewer rules that the shooter actually needs to deal with.

[Failure2Stop]

I have envisioned 'Duty and Carry' Division. It would be an amalgam of Open, Limited, and Production. Production-type guns, perhaps a little more restrictive than current Production rules allow. Mag pouches and holsters don't have to be behind the hip. Concealment or retention gear required. Magazines filled to capacity, with some limit on length of magazine. Lasers, WML, and slide-mounted mini RDS allowed. Minor scoring for everyone.


I completely agree.

And also agree that it probably isn't going to bring in anybody that isn't already shooting.


Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

[PPGMD]

Lol, I am the captain of a GSSF team. We have polos though.

Just to reinforce that the jersey doesn't mean you shoot well. There was a group there at the GSSF match I shot. I was far enough away that I didn't see the dude's score or time, so I asked him a question about why he shot the near targets first and he said "Because I can point shoot them." After the match looking at the results I was over 28 seconds faster on the final score. Imagine how fast I would've been if I wore my jersey (http://www.teampegleg.com/wp-content/gallery/bianchi-cup-2012/Bianchi2014_BibonShirt.jpg)?

[Mr_White]

Just to reinforce that the jersey doesn't mean you shoot well. There was a group there at the GSSF match I shot. I was far enough away that I didn't see the dude's score or time, so I asked him a question about why he shot the near targets first and he said "Because I can point shoot them." After the match looking at the results I was over 28 seconds faster on the final score. Imagine how fast I would've been if I wore my jersey (http://www.teampegleg.com/wp-content/gallery/bianchi-cup-2012/Bianchi2014_BibonShirt.jpg)?

I hear you. The GSSF team is fun, and it's also novel that we have a GSSF team.

Jerseys and fancy expensive guns don't make me want to run away, they just make me want to race and see if I can win or keep up. Many skill levels of USPSA competitor like to wear jerseys. Not my problem, and not theirs either. If a person is burdened by what other people wear...they are the one carrying the burden.

Kind of a tangent, but which stage are you talking about where the GSSF jersey guy shot the targets near to far? I am always interested in the persistent differences between how I and some of my competitors deal with the stages in GSSF.

[orionz06]

I have envisioned 'Duty and Carry' Division. It would be an amalgam of Open, Limited, and Production. Production-type guns, perhaps a little more restrictive than current Production rules allow. Mag pouches and holsters don't have to be behind the hip. Concealment or retention gear required. Magazines filled to capacity, with some limit on length of magazine. Lasers, WML, and slide-mounted mini RDS allowed. Minor scoring for everyone.


Sounds great.



I don't see the issue with shirts with sponsors on them. No different than anywhere else where shooters are covered in logos, patches, and pins. Hell, folks do it at a local level because they like a brand.

[PPGMD]

I hear you. The GSSF team is fun, and it's also novel that we have a GSSF team.

Teams seem like a good way to get an agency or such to pay for your GSSF entries. Though without award money or recognition from your peers at the award ceremony being involved I fail to see the point. But then again I view GSSF as a possible money maker.

Personally I have no problem with jerseys. The idea for mine was spawned to make fun of all the jerseys and I was going to put random logos like ACE Bandage and Advil, but after finding out the expense, I just put my logo on it. But until I get sponsors unless I want to put a flag on the sleeve that is the way it is going to stay.


Kind of a tangent, but which stage are you talking about where the GSSF jersey guy shot the targets near to far? I am always interested in the persistent differences between how I and some of my competitors deal with the stages in GSSF.

Glock M, it was setup with a single fixed popper in between the far targets. My first time shooting it, and I wondered why someone that would go to the expense of a jersey would use such a horrible stage plan by needlessly adding two long transitions. To me that is stage planning 101, something I try to get new shooters to think about after their first couple of USPSA matches.

[cclaxton]

No, hit factor scoring provides a good balance between speed and accuracy.

You can still publish hit factor. Just don't use it to score the match.


Why, if the sponsors allow you to pay for your shooting, they are going to want something out of it? Besides which I see almost as many jerseys running around other shooting sports as I see at a USPSA match. Heck I saw a group with jerseys at a GSSF match.
I was just answering the question about how USPSA could attract more CCW shooters. I am a big supporter of vendors at matches. But, it is very intimidating for new/novice shooters.


You can already, you will lose if you do so, but there are no rules prohibited you from doing tactical shooting as long as you stay in the shooting area. Heck you can also shoot outside the shooting area if you wish, but you will get one of the rare USPSA fingers.
No, that is not true. Stages are not designed for use of cover or concealment. They are based on speed and competitive challenge. When I said, "Create opportunities for cover or concealment" I meant changing how stages are built to create cover and concealment and through course design force people to use it. I rarely see this done.


If you aren't a douche that needs a good ego deflating,...
A good coach would never talk like this....again this is the kind of attitude that keeps people away.
It's more like: "You aren't really good enough to shoot in the big league...come back when you're ready."


...there is plenty of coaching available to you at a USPSA match.
Not in my experience. There are nice people and there are some individuals that will help coach newbies. But, Shooters want to shoot and go home and wait for the scores. Unless you have a friend who is willing to help, most competitors are thinking about their stages and not willing to help anyone else.


USPSA is only ego crushing to those that have an opinion of their shooting ability beyond what they can actually do. After seeing how good others are, there are two courses call them gamers and quit, or endeavor to improve you shooting skills. IDPA can be just as ego crushing when you watch the really good master/DM level shooters go through a stage.
The scores are the scores we all deserve.. that is enough ego crushing. There is no need to remind "the unworthy" just how unworthy they really are.
Me, I want to shoot so I have developed a thick skin....The biggest part of coaching is helping competitors gain confidence. That confidence gets affected when we keep reminding people how unworthy they are. I am not saying we should give them a false sense of accomplishment either.
Cody

[nwhpfan]

I have envisioned 'Duty and Carry' Division.

Ok, I was talking about you :)


I have brought maybe ~8-10 new shooters to USPSA.

And I have RO'd these people - USPSA's responsibiilty ends at encouraging its for members like you to bring them out; which you have done. One of them is hooked and part of the regular crew, others come out 1-2 times per year, some have never come back....

A lot of the complaints in this thread may occur at the local level but don't come from USPSA HQ. You get from USPSA what you want. We are so far beyond "this $h!# will get you killed on the streets" and it's pretty universal competition shooting is good for you. I shoot USPSA, but have shot a number of outlaw 3 gun matches, NRA TPC, outlaw Pistol, etc. Get out there and shoot. Best article ever is the one Origami wrote about his path to USPSA. I'm sure somebody smarter than me can post it again...

[PPGMD]

You can still publish hit factor. Just don't use it to score the match.

Again nope hit factor scoring is one of the reasons that IPSC/USPSA remains a sport that allows the balance between speed and accuracy. Also hit factor scoring isn't difficult to understand, it is points per second. Whoever has the most wins the stage and gets all the points available for the stage for scoring purposes everyone below them gets a percentage based on their hit factor to the winners. You then add up all the stage points to get the winners. Honestly it isn't hard, this was all done by hand before there were computers.


No, that is not true. Stages are not designed for use of cover or concealment. They are based on speed and competitive challenge. When I said, "Create opportunities for cover or concealment" I meant changing how stages are built to create cover and concealment and through course design force people to use it. I rarely see this done.

I don't think you've shot many USPSA matches. As often at least a couple times a match there is a stage that forces you to use cover. It has to be done a lot more strategically by using fault lines.


A good coach would never talk like this....again this is the kind of attitude that keeps people away.
It's more like: "You aren't really good enough to shoot in the big league...come back when you're ready."

Not in my experience. There are nice people and there are some individuals that will help coach newbies. But, Shooters want to shoot and go home and wait for the scores. Unless you have a friend who is willing to help, most competitors are thinking about their stages and not willing to help anyone else.

Actually someone that has met a variety of new shooters will understand. If you can to a USPSA match with an ego the size of the state of Texas, thinking you are a hot shot. You aren't going to get much coaching. If you approach it nicely looking for help people will fall over backward to help you. Unless you yankees are different from us southerners I would expect much the same reception in the north.

As an example I've seen people loan $5,000 open guns, and $200 magazines to people that forgot their stuff. Granted these were established members, but you are still talking about loaning a gun that costs more than a cheap car. And magazines that cost two c-notes that are doing to be dropped onto the group. If a new shooter needs ammo, magazines, or even equipment people will bend of backward.


The scores are the scores we all deserve.. that is enough ego crushing. There is no need to remind "the unworthy" just how unworthy they really are.
Me, I want to shoot so I have developed a thick skin....The biggest part of coaching is helping competitors gain confidence. That confidence gets affected when we keep reminding people how unworthy they are. I am not saying we should give them a false sense of accomplishment either.

I am not saying that we lord it over a person. Simply that some shooters realize how much they don't know about shooting until they come to a match. I know one cop that suggested all his fellow officers attend a USPSA match, to help them understand how little police training has taught them.

Think about this from another perspective. You are a mid-20 year old rookie cop, you are young in shape, overall at the top of your game. And then you go to a USPSA match, and someone like Rob Leatham (30 years older, not in perfect shape, and has physical issues) thoroughly trounces you. Hopefully that knocks your ego down enough that you will start asking "How did that guy get so good?"

[PPGMD]

Oh I just remembered, here is one thing that they can do. Make it easier to find matches.

Have a website where you can put in your zip code and get the nearest matches with dates, websites, and contact information.

Or you can do like the Alabama section does, and put together a Google map:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=217751363890230470461.00049f64b09e3a7f80888&ll=32.971804,-86.643677&spn=4.156273,5.657959&z=8

A list of matches just doesn't do it, as many of the small towns that the matches are hosted in aren't something that someone is going to be able to recognize by name. Take the three USPSA clubs in DFW. They are in Ferris, Maypearl, and Cresson. Only one is a name that anyone would even have a chance to recognize. So if I were looking at a list of matches for the state of Texas I might say "There are no matches in DFW." OTOH a map of a club finder with distance would allow you to see all the local matches.

I like the club finder concept, as if you are near the border your nearest match might be just over the border. Like the Ft Benning/Columbus, GA area your closest club is over the border in Alabama (in fact most of their members are from Columbus that even though Alabama in central time, all matches are scheduled based on eastern time).

[littlejerry]

Oh I just remembered, here is one thing that they can do. Make it easier to find matches.

Have a website where you can put in your zip code and get the nearest matches with dates, websites, and contact information.

Or you can do like the Alabama section does, and put together a Google map:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=217751363890230470461.00049f64b09e3a7f80888&ll=32.971804,-86.643677&spn=4.156273,5.657959&z=8

A list of matches just doesn't do it, as many of the small towns that the matches are hosted in aren't something that someone is going to be able to recognize by name. Take the three USPSA clubs in DFW. They are in Ferris, Maypearl, and Cresson. Only one is a name that anyone would even have a chance to recognize. So if I were looking at a list of matches for the state of Texas I might say "There are no matches in DFW." OTOH a map of a club finder with distance would allow you to see all the local matches.

I like the club finder concept, as if you are near the border your nearest match might be just over the border. Like the Ft Benning/Columbus, GA area your closest club is over the border in Alabama (in fact most of their members are from Columbus that even though Alabama in central time, all matches are scheduled based on eastern time).

This was the main reason why it took me so long to shoot USPSA. All of the matches in Atlanta are held at private clubs outside the city. IDPA was held at public indoor ranges so it was easy to stumble across. Until i went out of my way to find USPSA I never knew it was even around me. Even then I had to navigate through old early 2000s web sites with old info to even find out where matches were held.

Advertising at public ranges would go a long way.

As far as rules changes I don't want any. The sport is great because there are so few rules. And each MD has a lot of latitude in how they design stages. 4 clubs around me run matches and each has a different flair: one is IDPA-esque with low round counts, scenarios, cover, etc. Another is very technical with HARD shots at distance, compromised positions, and challenging no-easy-way stage design. Another club is more"classic" and tries to replicate state and area matches.

[nwhpfan]

This was the main reason why it took me so long to shoot USPSA. All of the matches in Atlanta are held at private clubs outside the city. IDPA was held at public indoor ranges so it was easy to stumble across. Until i went out of my way to find USPSA I never knew it was even around me. Even then I had to navigate through old early 2000s web sites with old info to even find out where matches were held.

Advertising at public ranges would go a long way.
.

So are you talking about how it was 10+ years ago? That doesn't seem relevant to the discussion today. I just went to www.uspsa.com At the top banner is "Find Clubs" and I typed in a zip for Atlanta and pops up half a dozen clubs with the monthly match date and time, contact information etc. I clicked on the links to the first club listed the third statement is new shooters welcome and everything you need to know to just show up and shoot. I did the same for my area and got similar results - along with the email and phone number inviting you to contact the MD with questions.

I really don't know what more USPSA needs to do when it has a national link to clubs, matches, etc. and all the information on how to show up and be a new shooter.

[Jared]

CClaxton,

I'm not picking on you dude, but I honestly wonder what kind of a USPSA club you wandered in to. The MD at the closest club to me is a pretty good Limited shooter. He takes every new shooter that shows up under his wing, and spends his match helping them process everything that's going on. On top of that, he keeps them in a squad with him until they are comfortable and ready to roll without the helping hand. Maybe 2-3 matches. I shot a bunch with him, even after I got to where I didn't need the help anymore, just because I genuinely like shooting with the guy. He's that good with new shooters. I still remember him loaning me a mag pouch my first time out so I would have enough.

I also remember when I finally went up to our local M and introduced myself. We chatted for a few minutes, and when we were getting ready to go our separate ways, he told me if I ever wanted any help, pointers, or anything, just ask. He's got one of those billboard shirts himself. I don't. From talking to him, I honestly didn't get the impression that he cared, or even noticed.

That's the kind of experiences I've had interacting with our local upper level shooters. The most off-putting shooter I ever interacted with was actually a B class dude that thought he was a god. Other than him, I've never had a bad time interacting with any shooters. I chatted up a very young GM at a level II match last year. Like young enough, that it would be very easy for him to have a big head. Guy was one of the nicest young men I've ever met, and a good dude to be on a squad with.

Now that I've typed this, I don't think I've ever spoken with an A, M, or GM that came off as though they had a "God's Gift" complex.

[littlejerry]

So are you talking about how it was 10+ years ago? That doesn't seem relevant to the discussion today. I just went to www.uspsa.com At the top banner is "Find Clubs" and I typed in a zip for Atlanta and pops up half a dozen clubs with the monthly match date and time, contact information etc. I clicked on the links to the first club listed the third statement is new shooters welcome and everything you need to know to just show up and shoot. I did the same for my area and got similar results - along with the email and phone number inviting you to contact the MD with questions.

I really don't know what more USPSA needs to do when it has a national link to clubs, matches, etc. and all the information on how to show up and be a new shooter.

That's assuming you know what USPA is. My experience was about 5 years ago, looking through 10 year old websites and finding scores from the 2002 fun shoot instead of the 2010 schedule. This industry, namely the large fudd clubs, don't like to use technology to reach people.

Still, I don't recall ever seeing advertising for USPSA at a public range. It wasn't until I shot a few outlaw steel matches at a public range(which WERE advertised) and met a few shooters who mentioned this fun thing called USPSA.

[PPGMD]

As far as rules changes I don't want any. The sport is great because there are so few rules. And each MD has a lot of latitude in how they design stages. 4 clubs around me run matches and each has a different flair: one is IDPA-esque with low round counts, scenarios, cover, etc. Another is very technical with HARD shots at distance, compromised positions, and challenging no-easy-way stage design. Another club is more"classic" and tries to replicate state and area matches.

And that is why I like USPSA, you can have everything from a hoser fest to 35 yard shots on a popper. And if the club doesn't have the flavor you like there is always another club. And even if there isn't if you are willing to put in the time, often clubs will gladly have you for stage design and stage setup.

Personally I think that overall rules are fine, we just need a better media and public presence.


So are you talking about how it was 10+ years ago? That doesn't seem relevant to the discussion today. I just went to www.uspsa.com At the top banner is "Find Clubs" and I typed in a zip for Atlanta and pops up half a dozen clubs with the monthly match date and time, contact information etc. I clicked on the links to the first club listed the third statement is new shooters welcome and everything you need to know to just show up and shoot. I did the same for my area and got similar results - along with the email and phone number inviting you to contact the MD with questions.

That is a lot better than the last time I used it.

[cclaxton]

CClaxton,
I'm not picking on you dude, but I honestly wonder what kind of a USPSA club you wandered in to. The MD at the closest club to me is a pretty good Limited shooter. He takes every new shooter that shows up under his wing, and spends his match helping them process everything that's going on. On top of that, he keeps them in a squad with him until they are comfortable and ready to roll without the helping hand. Maybe 2-3 matches. I shot a bunch with him, even after I got to where I didn't need the help anymore, just because I genuinely like shooting with the guy. He's that good with new shooters. I still remember him loaning me a mag pouch my first time out so I would have enough.

I also remember when I finally went up to our local M and introduced myself. We chatted for a few minutes, and when we were getting ready to go our separate ways, he told me if I ever wanted any help, pointers, or anything, just ask. He's got one of those billboard shirts himself. I don't. From talking to him, I honestly didn't get the impression that he cared, or even noticed.

That's the kind of experiences I've had interacting with our local upper level shooters. The most off-putting shooter I ever interacted with was actually a B class dude that thought he was a god. Other than him, I've never had a bad time interacting with any shooters. I chatted up a very young GM at a level II match last year. Like young enough, that it would be very easy for him to have a big head. Guy was one of the nicest young men I've ever met, and a good dude to be on a squad with.
Now that I've typed this, I don't think I've ever spoken with an A, M, or GM that came off as though they had a "God's Gift" complex.
I don't want anyone to get me wrong. As I said there are nice people at the USPSA matches I attend. I have developed some great shooting friends there as well. Every Club has it's own unique character as well. Some will be more helpful and some less. This is true of IDPA as well. The other thing is that IDPA trains there SO's to be new shooter friendly and new shooter helpful. We don't let them get away with safety violations, but we do try to help them with the stage and remind them of the muzzle safe points and where to turn, where to stand, etc. After all they are just beginning.

I still think the whole idea of USPSA v IDPA is stupid. They are different for good reasons, and whenever we get new people involved in pistol competition it makes them safer when they CC, it makes them better CC shooters, and it makes them better LEO's. It makes them more responsible gun owners. I will continue to support and attend both, and it just seems arrogant to try and make one better than the other.
Cody

[PPGMD]

I still think the whole idea of USPSA v IDPA is stupid.

This isn't about IDPA vs USPSA. This is about marketing USPSA better. How do we attract new shooters, media attention, and sponsorship dollars back to USPSA?

In fact you note that none of us are really discussing any rule changes, as few feel that there are any that need changing to attract new shooters.

[Jared]

This isn't about IDPA vs USPSA. This is about marketing USPSA better. How do we attract new shooters, media attention, and sponsorship dollars back to USPSA?

In fact you note that none of us are really discussing any rule changes, as few feel that there are any that need changing to attract new shooters.

Bingo.

And part of marketing USPSA better could well be marketing it, as Caleb said, as "Where the big boys play."

[Fourtrax]

Just to reinforce that the jersey doesn't mean you shoot well. There was a group there at the GSSF match I shot. I was far enough away that I didn't see the dude's score or time, so I asked him a question about why he shot the near targets first and he said "Because I can point shoot them." After the match looking at the results I was over 28 seconds faster on the final score. Imagine how fast I would've been if I wore my jersey (http://www.teampegleg.com/wp-content/gallery/bianchi-cup-2012/Bianchi2014_BibonShirt.jpg)?

I'm telling you.........easy 5%, lol


Honestly, once you go to some of the newer fabric like Under Armour or similar, you'll never wear cotton again.

[JMS]

Bingo.

And part of marketing USPSA better could well be marketing it, as Caleb said, as "Where the big boys play."
Seriously.

Especially since all one needs to do to compete in the USPSA while CCW-configured is choose to do so.

Anybody that can't figure out how to work a USPSA field stage as if the props in place are cover/concealment and whatnot....the hand pointing a finger at the USPSA has other fingers on it, pointing back at the individual doing the pointing.

I figured out how to do it....did it TODAY, and for the last year-plus...and I'm a high-function moron, at best.

[Fourtrax]

You too. Come show some technical superiority and crush some egos, it will be fun for all of us.


Hmmmmm, I think I would find it completely counter productive to be told how to shoot a stage. Anything more than, "here is the stage, shoot them as you see them," and I ain't your guy. I admit it. I am too much of a free thinker and problem solver to be told how to do it.

[Fourtrax]

Seriously.

Especially since all one needs to do to compete in the USPSA while CCW-configured is choose to do so.

Anybody that can't figure out how to work a USPSA field stage as if the props in place are cover/concealment and whatnot....the hand pointing a finger at the USPSA has other fingers on it, pointing back at the individual doing the pointing.

I figured out how to do it....did it TODAY, and for the last year-plus...and I'm a high-function moron, at best.

You sir are awesome. That's the attitude brother!!!

[cclaxton]

Bingo.

And part of marketing USPSA better could well be marketing it, as Caleb said, as "Where the big boys play."

I guess that means you are not a "big boy" if you don't shoot USPSA? That statement is in reference to other shooting sports and also infers that if you don't shoot USPSA you are not a big boy. Also, novice shooters think...not ready for that. Also, someone here said you wanted to make it more attractive to CCW...which is the IDPA option.

It's not better...just different and just as friendly to new shooters...THAT is the message I think you want to communicate.
Cody

[cclaxton]

Also hit factor scoring isn't difficult to understand, it is points per second. Whoever has the most wins the stage and gets all the points available for the stage for scoring purposes everyone below them gets a percentage based on their hit factor to the winners. You then add up all the stage points to get the winners. Honestly it isn't hard, this was all done by hand before there were computers.

LOL...simple...really? You forgot to mention how Major and Minor are scored differently.
Don't forget to explain points. Then add penalties.
What could be simpler than TIME+(Points Down/2)+penalties?
Time+ also allows people to easily compare themselves across Divisions and Classes.
Cody

[Jared]

I guess that means you are not a "big boy" if you don't shoot USPSA? That statement is in reference to other shooting sports and also infers that if you don't shoot USPSA you are not a big boy. Also, novice shooters think...not ready for that. Also, someone here said you wanted to make it more attractive to CCW...which is the IDPA option.

It's not better...just different and just as friendly to new shooters...THAT is the message I think you want to communicate.
Cody

I posted that rather quickly, and it does come off dismissively. Let me elaborate. There are Super Squad level Grandmasters that shoot USPSA and not IDPA. It is much harder to attain USPSA GM classification than it is IDPA Master classification. I think those facts could be used to draw shooters to USPSA that really do want to see how they stack up. It absolutely is one of the things that drew me.

That doesn't mean I'm standing here trying to put down anything else. If any club close to me ever starts Steel Challenge type matches, I will be there. I even went to a S.A.S.S. match once. I want them all to thrive.

Still, as I said in my original post, the talent pool in USPSA is DEEP. It can be marketed in such a way that it is a major draw for shooters. I think USPSA should take advantage of that.

[Jared]

LOL...simple...really? You forgot to mention how Major and Minor are scored differently.
Don't forget to explain points. Then add penalties.
What could be simpler than TIME+(Points Down/2)+penalties?
Time+ also allows people to easily compare themselves across Divisions and Classes.
Cody


Most USPSA clubs publish a "Combined Unofficial Results" that shows all Divisions combined. It's really easy to compare across divisions with that.

[PPGMD]

LOL...simple...really? You forgot to mention how Major and Minor are scored differently.
Don't forget to explain points. Then add penalties.
What could be simpler than TIME+(Points Down/2)+penalties?
Time+ also allows people to easily compare themselves across Divisions and Classes.

I don't care what is simpler, if we wanted simple we would be shooting other shooting sports like Steel Challenge or Bianchi. Are two different scales for points is really hard to comprehend? We are talking about people that can discuss ballistic coefficients, stopping power, et al until my eyes bleed.

But having major and minor scoring it gives people a choice. I can shoot single stack with 8 rounds major or 10 rounds with minor. I can so the same with revolver where it is 6 vs 8.

Either way none of this matters, just shoot alphas and you will always get five points.

As far as comparing across divisions, many clubs publish overall results. And for clubs that don't there is a website:
http://combinedresults.info/

Though when we need comparisons we typically look at classifier scores. As that compares you not just with your club but with USPSA as a whole, which is a much better comparison.

[Joe Mamma]

I don't care what is simpler, if we wanted simple we would be shooting other shooting sports like Steel Challenge or Bianchi. Are two different scales for points is really hard to comprehend? We are talking about people that can discuss ballistic coefficients, stopping power, et al until my eyes bleed.

But having major and minor scoring it gives people a choice. I can shoot single stack with 8 rounds major or 10 rounds with minor. I can so the same with revolver where it is 6 vs 8.

Either way none of this matters, just shoot alphas and you will always get five points.

As far as comparing across divisions, many clubs publish overall results. And for clubs that don't there is a website:
http://combinedresults.info/

Though when we need comparisons we typically look at classifier scores. As that compares you not just with your club but with USPSA as a whole, which is a much better comparison.

The point of this thread is what could be done to USPSA to attract more CCW holder shooters. Simplifying the rules would definitely help. The last time I checked, the USPSA rule book (for handguns only) was 112 pages. The 2014 USPSA Handgun Rules changes is 14 pages. The 2013 USPSA Rules changes was 18 pages. Of course none of that is hard to learn if you spend a lot of time reading it. But 99% of the CCW holders do not and will not do that.

To put this in perspective, the rule book for FNH 3 gun competition (that's THREE guns, not handgun only) is 9 pages.

I have shot USPSA for over 10 years and I still don't know what all the rules are. But at least I can admit that. I have shot with lots of very experienced USPSA shooters who think the rules are not that complicated and that they truly know the rules. But it's always interesting to be in USPSA match with them where there is a close call on penalties/scoring. Often these USPSA Rules Grand Masters will not be able to agree on what is correct. Then they start arguing about rules interpretation and it becomes a contest of who (thinks they) know the rules better. If you are a typical CCW shooter, you basically just want to shoot. You did not show up to get into a rules interpretation contest.

Also, I don't understand the resentment of people who wear jerseys or sponsor shirts. A lot of those "sponsored" guys (and gals) aren't very good, nor do they claim to be. They may just do it to show support for a particular company (with whom they have a personal, not professional, connection). They may also do it just do get a group of people together and have more fun shooting. I have noticed that jersey wearers and "teams" of shooters (who are not the top shooters) usually seem to be happier at the matches than most shooters, and ironically also seem to be much more friendly. Those are good things.

Joe Mamma

[PPGMD]

The point of this thread is what could be done to USPSA to attract more CCW holder shooters. Simplifying the rules would definitely help. The last time I checked, the USPSA rule book (for handguns only) was 112 pages. The 2014 USPSA Handgun Rules changes is 14 pages. The 2013 USPSA Rules changes was 18 pages. Of course none of that is hard to learn if you spend a lot of time reading it. But 99% of the CCW holders do not and will not do that.

To put this in perspective, the rule book for FNH 3 gun competition (that's THREE guns, not handgun only) is 9 pages.

You can't compare the rules of a single outlaw match, with the rulebook of a national shooting sport that is trying to homogenize things at clubs all across the nation. And a rule book of similar length in IDPA (yes their page count is less, but they use the standard letter size vs the smaller booklet size of the USPSA rulebook) doesn't deter new shooters.

But how about this, a 10-20 page plain english guide of everything that a new shooter needs to know to start shooting USPSA. Include pictures, and cites of the exact rule in the rule book but it would be clearly labeled as non-authoritative.


I have shot USPSA for over 10 years and I still don't know what all the rules are. But at least I can admit that. I have shot with lots of very experienced USPSA shooters who think the rules are not that complicated and that they truly know the rules. But it's always interesting to be in USPSA match with them where there is a close call on penalties/scoring. Often these USPSA Rules Grand Masters will not be able to agree on what is correct. Then they start arguing about rules interpretation and it becomes a contest of who (thinks they) know the rules better. If you are a typical CCW shooter, you basically just want to shoot. You did not show up to get into a rules interpretation contest.

Honestly new shooters don't care, about those rules. Does a new shooter need to argue about a foot fault giving a significant advantage thus the per shot penalty is needed? Or the fact that a fence of other obstacle is required to block off shooters from moving through non-shooting areas?

New shooters only really need to know about equipment divisions, a quick overview of various courses and the classification system, the safety rules, scoring, and the few actual shooting rules like shooting areas, using walls as support and such. They don't need to know about steel calibration, chrono, challenges and other rules that we older shooters will argue about until our eyes bleed.

Hell I don't know the exact wording of 75% of the rules without consulting the rule book.

[Fourtrax]

LOL...simple...really? You forgot to mention how Major and Minor are scored differently.
Don't forget to explain points. Then add penalties.
What could be simpler than TIME+(Points Down/2)+penalties?
Time+ also allows people to easily compare themselves across Divisions and Classes.
Cody


Duh, yep! Simple!!

You see, it's HIT FACTOR scoring = total points divided by time = very simple. Highest HIT FACTOR wins.

Total points = well,.... total points shot, MINUS any penalties. A MISS is minus 10, in fact, every penalty that I'm aware of is MINUS 10. Still very SIMPLE. It's subtract all penalties, not add, by the way.

So you see, VERY SIMPLE. Points shot - penalties / time = HIT FACTOR.

No way of scoring takes the 3 pillars of shooting into account better than HF scoring--- ACCURACY, POWER, SPEED. Not to argue, but as the foundation of USPSA, I find these three pillars equally suited to IDPA/CCW type endeavors. They should be the cornerstone of any serious shooter.

As you can see, it's pretty simple.

Oh yeah, you brought up major and minor. Here is how the points break down, again pretty simple.

Major A,B,C,D = 5,4,4,2. Minor A,B,C,D = 5,3,3,1

RO's are just calling out letters and score keepers are recording how many. Scoring programs add the points up according to whether the shooter is shooting major or minor. Again, pretty simple.

Comparing across divisions is pretty simple also, PRACTISCORE, which is the cats meow, will basically let you analyze the match in many different ways. Also as mentioned, there is another website which lists combined.

USPSA offers many different divisions so as to include almost every gun owner. You are not going to the match competing against everyone. You are just competing against the people shooting the same type of gun you are shooting. Pretty cool, and again, pretty easy concept.

[cclaxton]

You can't compare the rules of a single outlaw match, with the rulebook of a national shooting sport that is trying to homogenize things at clubs all across the nation. And a rule book of similar length in IDPA (yes their page count is less, but they use the standard letter size vs the smaller booklet size of the USPSA rulebook) doesn't deter new shooters.

I think you absolutely CAN compare FNH rules to USPSA rules. 3gun has been taking off. Many matches out west are sold out within hours of being listed. And most of these clubs are running FNH rules. The FNH rules are not a lot different than USPSA rules, either. They just simplified it and removed a lot of the if this, then that, if that, then this language. Also, they list the Division and equipment rules, and they are done. No long equipment related listings. York IWLA has dumped USPSA membership and just runs FNH rules and they add divisions for pistol, such as Limited, Production, Open, etc and use the same rules and the same stages.

And,......hold for it.......................
.
.
.
.
.
They use TIME+ Scoring!!!!
Cody

[PPGMD]

I think you absolutely CAN compare FNH rules to USPSA rules. 3gun has been taking off. Many matches out west are sold out within hours of being listed. And most of these clubs are running FNH rules. The FNH rules are not a lot different than USPSA rules, either. They just simplified it and removed a lot of the if this, then that, if that, then this language. Also, they list the Division and equipment rules, and they are done. No long equipment related listings. York IWLA has dumped USPSA membership and just runs FNH rules and they add divisions for pistol, such as Limited, Production, Open, etc and use the same rules and the same stages.

Those rules are so simple, that must be why at least once a winner has had to come back and say "Yeah I looked at the rules, my gun was illegal."

Most of USPSA rules came from shooting for 30 years, each rule was proceeded by someone gaming things and they had to close a loophole. I can also be reasonably sure that I can go to any USPSA match in the nation and be run under the same understanding of the rule book.

Also I checked on York, in reality they've gone multigun only. They simply have a pistol only option. And it is hilarious that they still vet shooters by the fact that they have a USPSA classification.


And,......hold for it.......................
They use TIME+ Scoring!!!!

Seriously get over your time plus scoring fetish, it ain't happening. Just like IDPA is never going to do away with the stupid fishing vests.

Hit factor is one of the core tenets of USPSA. It is what gives people the option of shooting a big caliber, or a small caliber. 40 caliber limited guns are virtually unheard of in 3 gun, and there is option in heavy metal to run a lower caliber in exchange for a bigger magazine. Yes it is slightly harder to calculate than time plus, but it isn't that difficult to do.

[Joe Mamma]

Duh, yep! Simple!!

You see, it's HIT FACTOR scoring = total points divided by time = very simple. Highest HIT FACTOR wins.

Total points = well,.... total points shot, MINUS any penalties. A MISS is minus 10, in fact, every penalty that I'm aware of is MINUS 10. Still very SIMPLE. It's subtract all penalties, not add, by the way.

So you see, VERY SIMPLE. Points shot - penalties / time = HIT FACTOR.

No way of scoring takes the 3 pillars of shooting into account better than HF scoring--- ACCURACY, POWER, SPEED. Not to argue, but as the foundation of USPSA, I find these three pillars equally suited to IDPA/CCW type endeavors. They should be the cornerstone of any serious shooter.

As you can see, it's pretty simple.

Oh yeah, you brought up major and minor. Here is how the points break down, again pretty simple.

Major A,B,C,D = 5,4,4,2. Minor A,B,C,D = 5,3,3,1

RO's are just calling out letters and score keepers are recording how many. Scoring programs add the points up according to whether the shooter is shooting major or minor. Again, pretty simple.


This is exactly the problem. It's simple once you know it well. And the fact that you and many other USPSA types don't understand that perspective is a bigger problem (in the context of bringing more new typical CCW holder shooters).

If I give you score sheets for 15 shooters for a 8 stage USPSA match, and give you a calculator and pen (no computer scoring program), how long do you think it would take you to figure out all their scores? If I gave you score sheets (for the same 15 shooters at an 8 stage match) for some other type of new-shooter friendly match (let's even say it's even a "complicated" FN 3 gun match), it would probably take a fraction of the time. That's because USPSA scoring is much more complicated. Think of how simple scoring is for a GSSF match.

I don't think USPSA will ever get rid of their scoring system, and I am not saying they should. But I think it is one of the the things that keeps it from being more popular.



But how about this, a 10-20 page plain english guide of everything that a new shooter needs to know to start shooting USPSA. Include pictures, and cites of the exact rule in the rule book but it would be clearly labeled as non-authoritative.


That would be a great idea.



Honestly new shooters don't care, about those rules. Does a new shooter need to argue about a foot fault giving a significant advantage thus the per shot penalty is needed? Or the fact that a fence of other obstacle is required to block off shooters from moving through non-shooting areas?

New shooters only really need to know about equipment divisions, a quick overview of various courses and the classification system, the safety rules, scoring, and the few actual shooting rules like shooting areas, using walls as support and such.

You and I see things differently here. I think new shooters DO care about those rules and a lot of others. I do agree with you that new shooters SHOULD NOT care about a lot of rules. But they do. It's analogous to how they care about having competitive equipment (gun, holster, mag holders, etc.) even though they shouldn't.

We all say "just be safe" to new shooters, and don't worry about scores/performance, and we mean it. They all say "I just want to be safe." But they really also want to do well, and that means understanding the rules, scoring, etc.

Joe Mamma

[perlslacker]

Is there really a membership crisis in USPSA where we should be worried about trying to recruit a bunch of entry level shooters?

IDPA is tee ball, and that's fine. They limit the difficulty of shots and try to keep the cost of competition down. That's a great way to create a non-intimidating environment for the new guys. That's why I started with IDPA. That's their niche.

USPSA does have some problems. Fundamentally changing the character of the sport so that newbies will feel more comfortable shooting it won't solve any of them.

Basically this whole thread has been

"Hey how would we get more average gun owners to shoot USPSA?"

"Well we could do X I guess."

"X is a terrible idea."

"WELL I KNOW BUT IT WOULD MAKE MORE AVERAGE GUN PEOPLE JOIN."

I just disagree with the premise that USPSA needs to go out of its way to recruit more average gun people.

[YVK]

Hmmmmm, I think I would find it completely counter productive to be told how to shoot a stage. Anything more than, "here is the stage, shoot them as you see them," and I ain't your guy. I admit it. I am too much of a free thinker and problem solver to be told how to do it.

I see two things worthy of a discussion.
The first one is of marketing deficiencies alluded to above. If USPSA shooters are superior in skills to other groups, then the demonstration of this superiority would be the strongest marketing tool. USPSA shooters attending IDPA matches on different levels (Super Squad - Nationals, Ms and As - local and state) and crushing the competition would be the best endorsement. Surely those little superficial cover garments and slide lock reloads shouldn't present much problems.

Another observation is that a complete and proficient shooter should be able to shoot any task or stage, one that he selects how to address, and another that's dictated to him, equally well. Such is life, sometimes you have choices and sometimes you don't; shooting, especially in CCW aspects, is no different. Emphasis of one type over another is not very appealing to a thinking CCWer.

[cclaxton]

You may think this will be biased based on who it's coming from. But, here goes.

The more new shooters you encourage to shoot IDPA, the more IDPA shooters will join USPSA. I had no interest in USPSA until at least a year after shooting IDPA. It wasn't until then that I appreciated the value of USPSA. Now it's true that not all IDPA shooters will shoot USPSA, but a good percentage will end up doing both. In the clubs I shoot, everyone who is Sharpshooter or above and really working on advancing is shooting USPSA as well...to varying degrees. That is about 20-40% of the club, depending on the club. So, by encouraging new shooters to join IDPA, you get more USPSA shooters in the long term.

We also are seeing a recent trend where USPSA shooters are interested in shooting IDPA. They use IDPA as the opportunity to bring out their carry guns and shoot scenarios using cover and concealment. The last match where I was MD we had three out of 22 shooters who shot USPSA and were new to IDPA.

These are the facts, and I am just sayin.....the sports complement each other.
Cody

[fixer]

Here are my suggestions and comments as a fairly new entrant into USPSA.

#1. I can heartily echo the comments about easier identification of local matches.
I having been shooting at a local range for 4 years before I accidentally found out about the USPSA matches. It was disappointing to know that I've probably been at the range the same time as a match 4-5 dozen times.

#2. More shooting, less waiting.


Ego isn't a big deal. Open guns aren't a big deal. I come from a drag racing background. Perhaps it is easier for me to relate. I see it as you are there to compete against yourself. Just like racing your stock mustang against some full-tub, chuted, trailer queen...yeah you're gonna lose but you are really there to improve your skills.

[PPGMD]

You may think this will be biased based on who it's coming from. But, here goes.

[snip...snip]

These are the facts, and I am just sayin.....the sports complement each other.

Yes it is biased. You answer for everything is IDPA, have a cold... IDPA, gun malfunctioning.... IDPA.

Jesus Christo man we start a thread about how to market USPSA better and your only suggestions are basically IDPA.

Yes we know IDPA is really successful at recruiting new shooters. And we don't believe the USPSA rule book is the issue, as the IDPA rule book is practically as long. We also know that when IDPA shooters get serious they come to USPSA.

So we are asking how do we market USPSA better, so as to get a percentage of the new shooters to start in USPSA directly? As I think the issue is marketing not rules.

[orionz06]

You're missing what is being laid down. How does uspsa attract more shooters? Shoot IDPA more. Think about it.

[PPGMD]

You're missing what is being laid down. How does uspsa attract more shooters? Shoot IDPA more. Think about it.

Sorry I don't see it, unless you are being sarcastic. I don't see how pimping IDPA helps USPSA in any direct measure.

Now I agree that we can poach certain things from IDPA, like new shooter briefings, and encouraging new shooters to show up with whatever pistol they own. But changing the fundamental things about USPSA like the freestyle shooting, and hit factor scoring would kill the sport.

[orionz06]

It was sarcasm. A sudden influx of IDPA shooters will create a sudden influx of uspsa shooters soon after.

[JeffJ]

You're missing what is being laid down. How does uspsa attract more shooters? Shoot IDPA more. Think about it.

We really need a like button...

Seriously, USPSA is a demanding sport that requires a high degree of hand-eye coordination, critical thinking skills, the ability to process multiple things while running a gun a high level making demanding shots in what are often unconventional positions. It's not the every-man's game, it's hard and it attracts the shooters who want that kind of challenge.

As far as marketing goes, I don't think that IDPA is really that much of a competitor to USPSA, I do think that 3 gun is and that USPSA should be focusing on getting 3 gunners to prove their pistol bonafides by shooting USPSA

[cclaxton]

You're missing what is being laid down. How does uspsa attract more shooters? Shoot IDPA more. Think about it.
Just to clarify that is not what I said. What I said was to encourage new shooters to join IDPA if they don't feel ready for USPSA, knowing that a percentage of them will end up shooting USPSA as well. I didn't say, "Shoot IDPA more."

Also, we are seeing some IDPA people skip USPSA and go directly to 3Gun...just sayin those are facts.
Cody

[PPGMD]

Seriously, USPSA is a demanding sport that requires a high degree of hand-eye coordination, critical thinking skills, the ability to process multiple things while running a gun a high level making demanding shots in what are often unconventional positions. It's not the every-man's game, it's hard and it attracts the shooters who want that kind of challenge.

As far as marketing goes, I don't think that IDPA is really that much of a competitor to USPSA, I do think that 3 gun is and that USPSA should be focusing on getting 3 gunners to prove their pistol bonafides by shooting USPSA

Other than critical thinking skills and unconventional positions, IDPA isn't that much different. Sure the shooting is typically harder and faster in USPSA but I've seen people that get FTNs on nearly all the targets in IDPA.

But that is an interesting idea marketing to 3 gunners. I can see it now:
"Three gunners, want to suck less with a pistol? Come shoot USPSA."

[JeffJ]

Have you shot many local matches lately? (I've been a bit remiss myself - that's not attack, I know you shoot more national level stuff) But, when there is a big 3 gun match on the same weekend as USPSA it's pretty obvious. A lot of those guys shoot IDPA too, but it sure seems like the order for those shooters is 3 Gun, USPSA, 2 Gun, Steel, IDPA.

BTW, I think DAPS is still doing Wednesday IDPA Matches at Elm Forks once or twice a month, I keep meaning to dust off the vest and go but it never happens.

[PPGMD]

Have you shot many local matches lately? (I've been a bit remiss myself - that's not attack, I know you shoot more national level stuff) But, when there is a big 3 gun match on the same weekend as USPSA it's pretty obvious. A lot of those guys shoot IDPA too, but it sure seems like the order for those shooters is 3 Gun, USPSA, 2 Gun, Steel, IDPA.

BTW, I think DAPS is still doing Wednesday IDPA Matches at Elm Forks once or twice a month, I keep meaning to dust off the vest and go but it never happens.

Local matches, pretty rarely. I only schedule one weekend a month for local matches, and lately due to weather that has been canceled.

I will be trying to make it out to Cross Timbers USPSA match later this month, sparing that the DAPS match.

But yes I see it, I practice at ETTS the crowd for three gun is much bigger than the crowd for USPSA. And they have local level championships that have almost attendance as a section match. I don't deny that 3 gun is popular, I simply say that many 3 gunners SUCK majorly at pistol, I've watched entire squads struggle with huge steel plates at 7-10 yards. So perhaps marketing to that to leech some of the shooters off? Not all the 3 gunners started in USPSA, lots of people jumped right into 3 gun. If we can pull some of those back even as a secondary match would be a benefit, after all the typical 3 gun pistol would fit right in to limited or open.

[JeffJ]

Yeah, something like "Want to be a 3 gun stud on 3rd Saturday? Come light up USPSA on 2nd Saturday!" is probably the way to approach it.

[Chris Rhines]

As far as marketing goes, I don't think that IDPA is really that much of a competitor to USPSA, I do think that 3 gun is and that USPSA should be focusing on getting 3 gunners to prove their pistol bonafides by shooting USPSA

This right here. To the extent that USPSA is losing market share, it's losing it to 3-Gun.

[YVK]

A slight detour, but just for my education: what critical thinking skills does USPSA possess? I guess I am trying to understand a meaning of critical. Admittedly, I am new to the sport, so I am confused.
You come to the match and walk through the stages. Then you go shoot each stage and you formulate your stage strategy; you can be as simple as just shoot them, or as sophisticated as figuring out your predicted HF and what exactly you want to achieve. You then can go airgun it and burn it in. That's all requires experience and skill, but you have an asston of time to do it. Then you try to execute it the best you can, and I've not seen people to change much from their prior plan, short of makeup shots. So, what's critical about it? Is critical being used in an analytical connotation in the planning stage, or as in "critical dynamic incident"?

[JeffJ]

I certainly did not mean it in the "critical dynamic incident" way. Critical thinking being the ability to analyze, conceptualize, and apply information based on observation, experience etc. (There are better definitions out there, but that's the basic idea) While we use critical thinking in just about everything, USPSA allows us to observe a stage and develop a plan using our own creative process that is based on our personal strengths and weaknesses. It allows us to develop plans, observe our plans in action, develop contingency and use those contingencies on the fly and then see how our scores stack up.

Are you really good at long, tight shots and maybe not the best shoot on the move guy? Then maybe you can clear some targets from an earlier shooting position and eliminate a later position or a reload, etc.

Did you just miss 2 steel on the plate rack and now your reload plan is screwed, how are you going to recover from that?

It's not that IDPA doesn't require any critical thinking, it's just that USPSA requires a lot more.

Although, you can also just do what the guy in front of you does and not worry about it.

[okie john]

These are just my own ideas. I could be way off base here, as a lot of this stuff is based on things I heard or felt before I ever shot a match. Again, I don't want to see the technical aspect of the sport dumbed down. I'd love to hear some ideas from others.

I'm in the ad business. If a client came to us with a problem like this, we'd probably call our solution about half rebranding exercise and half new line of business launch. There’s a lot of good thinking in this thread, but rebranding is a long, complex problem with a lot of moving parts. I see a lot of good thinking in this thread, but the things you're talking about need a super-solid foundation. Here’s how the agencies where I’ve worked would provide it:

People move through a psychological progression as they buy things or change their behavior (start shooting USPSA instead of another sport, or try it to begin with). They start by becoming aware of a product or change, then they consider it, then they come to prefer it to other similar products or changes, and then they actually buy it or do it.

Before you can start to move people through that progression, you want to ensure that your efforts will move them through every step without skipping any. The best way to do that is to talk about your product in a positive way and help others talk about it that way. So to do that, we’d start by clarifying our goal. In this case, let’s say that it’s “get more people to shoot in USPSA events”.

To achieve that, we’d define USPSA clearly and talk about it in a positive way that highlights its strengths. If people think it’s a gear race with a $2k bar to entry, then let’s position it as a path to self-improvement. Instead of calling it “the harder sport”, maybe we call it “where good shooters go to get better”. Same idea, different spin. We’d also look for ways to spread that message head-to-head with the negative messages about it, especially in gun shops and online forums where USPSA takes a beating.

We’d also use research to define our audience more clearly. As people have noted, the “average CCW” (if there is such a thing) probably neither shoots much nor cares much about gear or skill, so that might not be who we want. They also might not have enough money to participate often enough to make it worth our while. But we also assume that we understand the “average CCW”. Are our assumptions true? If so, then who do we go after and why? If not, then why not? What do we really know about our audience(s)?

From there, we’d identify the people most likely to be receptive to our message. That would probably be shooters already in some kind of action sport like IDPA, Speed Steel, or even Sporting Clays—we know that they understand the premise and that they're OK with the idea of people moving around with loaded guns during a match. The next easiest group might be people who own multiple guns and are planning to buy more guns in the next 12 months—we know that they probably have enough interest and income to be viable prospects, so the problem is getting them to divert some of it to shooting USPSA matches. But we focus on low-hanging fruit: we don’t start going after net new shooters until we get through existing gun owners.

Once we identified these audience segments, we’d find the best ways to reach them. Word of mouth is best, so we’d look for people who these shooters already trust and find ways to get them to spread the word. Forums like this are a good place—when a poster you recognize and trust says good things, you’re more inclined to listen.

As our audiences became aware of USPSA, we’d try to reach them in as many places as we could. We’d try to get gun makers to start labeling products as “USPSA ready”, as BladeTech does with their IDPA-approved holsters. This helps you win the gear race issue—the “USPSA Ready” label on a $600 pistol sidesteps the negative opinions of gun store commandos on either side of the counter before they’re even expressed. Component and ammo makers stand to benefit hugely from ammo-intensive sports like this, so we’d try to get them on board as well.

The result is a lot of credible people saying good things about USPSA, which helps move potential shooters through the awareness and consideration phases of the progression.

Note that up to this point, USPSA itself has not changed at all—we’ve just clarified our goals, settled on a story, identified our audiences, and found effective ways to tell our story to those audiences in ways that help us achieve our goals. All of these measures could get people to matches—but what will they find when they get there? This is where we’d use data to find out what USPSA can do for our audience that it isn’t doing already. Without data, I’m reduced to guessing—but I’ll guess that it would be a division where people can use inexpensive IDPA-type guns and gear without IDPA-type restrictions. But no matter what, three things are key at this point:

Any change must deliver the new experience that prospective shooters want.
USPSA and local clubs must be ready to not only handle a rush of newcomers, but to welcome them with open arms.
Whatever you call it must IMMEDIATELY make sense to newcomers AND reinforce the positive messages decided on above. “Stock”, “Open”, and “Limited” don’t do this. Something like “Street”, “Concealed”, or “Defensive” would be better.


At this point, we’d launch a three-pronged PR initiative. First, gun writers: announce the new division with a big match that’s just for them. Make it fun but easy so they score well, provide a bunch of factory "USPSA-ready" guns and boatloads of ammo, feed them well, and buy ads in their magazines. Suddenly, they’ll be telling the world that this new USPSA thing is a good deal and not to be afraid of it. Second, work with bloggers: many of them are already action shooters, so engage them in discussions about the future of USPSA. What do they think? What do their readers think? This will generate a LOT of thoughtful coverage in the places where many shooters look for guidance. It will be positive and negative, from both bloggers and commenters, so it’s a good way to gauge opinion. Third, engage well-known former Tier I trainers who believe that competition is good. Most will be willing to support the idea in some way, even if it’s just a positive quote. Approach them individually and see how they’re willing to help.

Nail all of this down and you’ll have people paying attention to USPSA who ignored it before. At that point, things like changing course design, moving people through matches more quickly, hosting clinics, etc. start to make sense. If you change too soon, then nobody will know about it. You'll also piss off existing shooters, and they’re what makes new shooters get involved or walk away.


Okie John

[ford.304]

Hello, I'm pretty sure I'm the target demographic for this thread. I shot my first USPSA match a couple weekends ago. I've shot steel and IDPA a few matches a year for about two years. Here's what's kept me from shooting USPSA for that long.

1) The gear. If you happen to shoot a production gun anyway, you don't understand why this is annoying. You already have everything. 3 Mags and a double carrier and you're set. If you happen to own a revolver or a 1911, though, you're looking at a whole bag full of magazines and carriers around half your damn belt for them. The more you raise the startup investment, the more you keep people from trying out the sport. I still don't actually own enough mag carriers for my 1911 for a USPSA match - I borrowed one from a friend.

I shot my first IDPA match literally with a revolver and a couple pockets of speedloaders. I've seen people shoot steel with only the mag that goes in the gun. Neither is really ideal, but it's reasonable. And then once you're at the match you realize what you should be doing.

Once people have the foot in the door they have a much better sense of why they should want all the other stuff.

2) The match length/organization. Standing around all day for a couple runs is just tough. Some places organize differently - sending groups through as soon as they fill up, that sort of thing. It's a *big* difference to people who want to come, but are stretching family obligations to take a whole day.

3) Yes, the scoring is f'ing confusing. It's not worth changing, but I read through the rules 3-4 times and I still don't really understand it.

4) Beyond gear, long stages are intimidating, when you're still getting your feet under yourself on the rules, the 180 line, reloads, etc.

5) The rules aren't confusing, but the rulebook is. My friend explaining single stack as "your gear behind your hips, 8 round mags, no real mods" makes sense. Trying to find out if my gear is legal by reading the book is much less helpful.

6) Similarly, the discussions are not helpful to the image that you can just show up with your glock and shoot. Even if not everyone shoots a race gun, everyone still seems to be talking about race guns.

7) Overall, the impression given from IDPA is "come here if you want to get better with your defensive pistol". From USPSA it's a bit more "come here only if you can compete with the BEST." Which, it could make a lot of sense to go to USPSA as a natural progression *from* IDPA - but to do that you'd have to convince everyone to drop the tribalism, and that's tough.

[YVK]

Jeff, thanks, I thought that this what you and others meant. I certainly find that part of USPSA appealing and enjoy it myself, although I also find that USPSA aficionados often blow it up out of proportion a bit.

[Jared]

Okie John,

Loved your post. Main parts I liked was #1, recruiting from people that already shoot something else. I have had the most success getting folks to come shoot with me that already do something else. I've got like a 0% success rate with gunowners that have never shot at an organized event of any kind, although one dude really wants to show, he's just got a ton of heavy family stuff going on right now.

#2, your "where good shooters go to get better" sounds a ton better than anything I've ever been able to come up with when it comes to highlighting the talent level USPSA draws.

Anyway, thanks for your insight. I knew there had to be at least 1 ad guy on PF.

[Jared]

Ford.304,

A lot of the things you mention, especially with regard to Single Stack and Revolver gear requirements, I really do empathize with. I just don't have the answer for you. One of the reasons, actually just about the only reason, that I occasionally flirt with the idea of giving IDPA a go is because I like playing with Revolvers a bit, and when the stage length is capped at 18 rounds, it makes Revo a LOT easier.

I've argued against changing the scoring system and adding cover rules or the like because I personally feel that Hit Factor scoring and the Freestyle system of shooting stages are likely the very core tenets, the beating heart if you will, of USPSA competition. Ditch those elements, and I truly feel that USPSA loses its essence.

When it comes to "more shooting, less standing" I do have a couple ideas, but they'd have to be left up to the individual club, and that club would probably need at least 6 dedicated volunteers to make it work. And honestly, they might not be legal.

[Mr_White]

A slight detour, but just for my education: what critical thinking skills does USPSA possess? I guess I am trying to understand a meaning of critical. Admittedly, I am new to the sport, so I am confused.
You come to the match and walk through the stages. Then you go shoot each stage and you formulate your stage strategy; you can be as simple as just shoot them, or as sophisticated as figuring out your predicted HF and what exactly you want to achieve. You then can go airgun it and burn it in. That's all requires experience and skill, but you have an asston of time to do it. Then you try to execute it the best you can, and I've not seen people to change much from their prior plan, short of makeup shots. So, what's critical about it? Is critical being used in an analytical connotation in the planning stage, or as in "critical dynamic incident"?

I don't think I would call it critical thinking exactly - more like semiconscious spatial and contingency management while under time and mental pressure. I do think it is a very positive part of USPSA, and I would think IDPA, too.

You are right that you can have a whole plan nailed down before you shoot the stage, and in both sports. The part I am referring to happens when that plan goes wrong in some way, which happens frequently. Then, there has to be mental adjustment and reorientation done under pressure. The efficiency of that mental adjustment will be reflected in a person's score.

[jetfire]

I don't think I would call it critical thinking exactly - more like semiconscious spatial and contingency management while under time and mental pressure. I do think it is a very positive part of USPSA, and I would think IDPA, too.

You are right that you can have a whole plan nailed down before you shoot the stage, and in both sports. The part I am referring to happens when that plan goes wrong in some way, which happens frequently. Then, there has to be mental adjustment and reorientation done under pressure. The efficiency of that mental adjustment will be reflected in a person's score.

Example: what to do when your plan breaks down in the middle of a stage. Experienced shooters adapt quickly, newbies stare like a duck in thunder.

[YVK]

I don't think I would call it critical thinking exactly - more like semiconscious spatial and contingency management while under time and mental pressure. I do think it is a very positive part of USPSA, and I would think IDPA, too.

You are right that you can have a whole plan nailed down before you shoot the stage, and in both sports. The part I am referring to happens when that plan goes wrong in some way, which happens frequently. Then, there has to be mental adjustment and reorientation done under pressure. The efficiency of that mental adjustment will be reflected in a person's score.

Reflecting on your experience, which is a lot larger than mine, how much of actual reorientation is being done, Gabe? I mean, have you seen or done that yourself where an unexpected fumble has led a shooter to take on a radically new course? My personal, admittedly limited, observations, have been that shooters who get in trouble, whether unexpected miss, malfunction, dropped mag etc, generally behave reactively. They pick a mag, reduce the stoppage, alter the reload sequence and then proceed along the predetermined plan. How fast they react and fix the issue certainly matters, but, as you mentioned, it seems to be identical for both sports.

[mikeg]

Disclaimer: I am excluding safety rules and division rules as they are the same in both sports...

I would actually argue that the so called "big" rule book that USPSA has is actually VERY, VERY, VERY, new shooter/lacking knowledge of the rules friendly. If a stage is set up correctly, and the written stage briefing isn't complicated you almost NEVER run into issues with the rules.

I would be curious, what sort of "rules" would complicate a 6 stage match where all the WSB say 'shoot targets as they become visible'... I can't think of a single one. IDPA on the other hand, you need to know HOW to shoot the stage and HOW to reload in order NOT to get penalized.

As far as the mixed identity goes... I would say that's 100% IDPA... the sport revolves around two concepts... self-defense, and non-gamer stuff (basically saying we AREN'T USPSA)... they adopt all these rules and scenarios to simulate reality, don't allow you do necessarily use what you actually carry, limit your round capacity, and then to throw the whole "non-gamer" concept out the window... they allow you to use stuff like an STI Eagle in ESP, which mind you, the only difference between that and my "iron sight race gun" that I shoot in Limited (STI Edge), is a bull barrel, ICE magwell, full mag capacity, and a working grip safety.

[ST911]

The area 1 website has a great section called "Getting Started." It's a pretty thorough overview of the most pertinent aspects of a match and the sport, and would be a great resource for someone considering USPSA matches.

http://uspsa1.org/getting-started/

[PPGMD]

The area 1 website has a great section called "Getting Started." It's a pretty thorough overview of the most pertinent aspects of a match and the sport, and would be a great resource for someone considering USPSA matches.

http://uspsa1.org/getting-started/

Actually that isn't bad.

I think it could use pictures and better formatting. But it is a good start.

[Drang]

Go back and read the last 10 pages.
How much of it is a pissing contest about whether USPSA or IDPA is better, and about divisions and rules and...
Like I said earlier, the "average CCW holder" has a gun and some ammo and one or two mags (if a semi-auto) and possibly a holster-like device.
If he or she happens, somehow, to hear about your "USPDA" match and shows up, are you going to say "Well, your Taurus Judge isn't allowed"? "I'm not sure your LCP qualifies"? Should you? Will you find a way to let them get the experience anyway? Can you? Do the rules, and conduct of the match, allow you to?
If they show up it'll be to learn more about defensive shooting, and to have fun.

As for me, the closest to any competition I've gotten into was the informal, unofficial Steel Challenge matches at Gun Blogger Rendezvous every year. (I suck, but I'm getting better.) Last year SF author and "Daily Pundit" Bill Quick attempted it with his J- Frame. I suggested he deserved a special award for doing so. Not surprisingly, he didn't do so well, so he went out and bought himself a 22/45 and expects to do better this year.

But can a local USPSA or IDPA match help the "average CCW holder" to get as much out of the experience, and make informed decisions?

[TheTrevor]

To Drang's point, if you show up to your first USPSA match with 2 mag holders, 3 10-rd mags, and a Production gun, you're probably not going to have a good time. At my club it's rare for the non-classifier stages to come in under 30 rounds.

[jetfire]

The real rub is that none of the gun games are targeted for the average CCW holder. The "average" CCW holder is carrying an LCP in his pocket regardless of what he tells his buddies on Glocktalk. The real message we should be wondering about is how should USPSA go about attracting shooters to their organization whose primary focus is concealed carry. Essentially, more guys like Gabe.

[cclaxton]

The real rub is that none of the gun games are targeted for the average CCW holder. The "average" CCW holder is carrying an LCP in his pocket regardless of what he tells his buddies on Glocktalk. The real message we should be wondering about is how should USPSA go about attracting shooters to their organization whose primary focus is concealed carry. Essentially, more guys like Gabe.
I would like to see IDPA adopt the BUG division for every match for this reason. Let them run lasers and lights, too. In my experience lasers don't fix grip and trigger control issues. We just had a BUG match at Thurmont, and people brought out their guns with lasers and lights. I see no problem with that.
Cody

[ford.304]

The real rub is that none of the gun games are targeted for the average CCW holder. The "average" CCW holder is carrying an LCP in his pocket regardless of what he tells his buddies on Glocktalk. The real message we should be wondering about is how should USPSA go about attracting shooters to their organization whose primary focus is concealed carry. Essentially, more guys like Gabe.

The average CCW holder is carrying his LCP. But he can be convinced to do better than that if he can get his foot in the door.

It's like autocross vs road racing. Autocross encourages you to bring your street car, on your street tires, and just go. And it's possible to do so and have a fun time. Once you start having fun, you realize that maybe your 20" rims with 1" of sidewall aren't ideal, or that you'd like some stickier tires. I *never* would have cared about tires until I actually started racing. And now I really want to try a track day.. but you really shouldn't go out for a track day in your idiot ricer with 1" sidewalls.

Really the problem guns games have is the giant pissing match. There should be an organized push - "Come to steel to have fun with just your gun and get used to shooting faster! Come to IDPA to get comfortable moving and reloading! Come to USPSA, too, once you're really invested." It should be a natural progression, with people shooting both and encouraging people to shoot both. Instead all I ever hear from USPSA guys is bitching about the dropping loaded magazine rules in IDPA. Which a novice doesn't and shouldn't care about -- it only annoys them because it's different from what they do in USPSA.

I know that's what you've been advocating on your blog for years -- but it's not really the feel you get from the organizations.

[cclaxton]

The average CCW holder is carrying his LCP. But he can be convinced to do better than that if he can get his foot in the door.

It's like autocross vs road racing. Autocross encourages you to bring your street car, on your street tires, and just go. And it's possible to do so and have a fun time. Once you start having fun, you realize that maybe your 20" rims with 1" of sidewall aren't ideal, or that you'd like some stickier tires. I *never* would have cared about tires until I actually started racing. And now I really want to try a track day.. but you really shouldn't go out for a track day in your idiot ricer with 1" sidewalls.

Really the problem guns games have is the giant pissing match. There should be an organized push - "Come to steel to have fun with just your gun and get used to shooting faster! Come to IDPA to get comfortable moving and reloading! Come to USPSA, too, once you're really invested." It should be a natural progression, with people shooting both and encouraging people to shoot both. Instead all I ever hear from USPSA guys is bitching about the dropping loaded magazine rules in IDPA. Which a novice doesn't and shouldn't care about -- it only annoys them because it's different from what they do in USPSA.

I know that's what you've been advocating on your blog for years -- but it's not really the feel you get from the organizations.
+1
Cody

[PPGMD]

Instead all I ever hear from USPSA guys is bitching about the dropping loaded magazine rules in IDPA. Which a novice doesn't and shouldn't care about -- it only annoys them because it's different from what they do in USPSA.

And all I hear from many IDPA guys is about how USPSA is full of race guns, the enmity between the sports isn't just one way. If you try to educate them that the same guns that are competitive in SSP are competitive in production, and that ESP guns aren't half bad Limited guns, they will totally ignore you.

Until that enmity stops, I don't think it is in a USPSA shooter's best interests to push shooters into IDPA, if the goal is to grow USPSA.

[JeffJ]

I don't know why CCW keeps coming up as the target audience. I think USPSA could probably attract more golfers and motocross guys, they're used to spending all day competing, spending money on equipment, and will understand and be attracted to the (IMO) well thought out classification system in USPSA.

[JeffJ]

Jeff, thanks, I thought that this what you and others meant. I certainly find that part of USPSA appealing and enjoy it myself, although I also find that USPSA aficionados often blow it up out of proportion a bit.

What's interesting is that the free style nature of the game allows people to overthink their stage strategy to the point that they crash and burn with it (not sure if that's what you mean by overthink). I've seen several people who really try to "game" a stage have it blow up in their face - I've also seen some people "game" a stage and really do well with it by being able to eliminate 1 or 2 positions or reloads and make significant gains on someone by thinking outside the normal shoot 8, reload and move shoot 8

[ford.304]

And all I hear from many IDPA guys is about how USPSA is full of race guns, the enmity between the sports isn't just one way.

Sorry, I agree 100% that IDPA shooters are at fault with this as well. I didn't mean to take sides. But the question of the thread was "how can USPSA attract average CCW holder" -- IDPA is already doing it. What can USPSA do? Go to IDPA matches and have fun, and recruit people. :P And let the new guys know that it's not all race guns.

[PPGMD]

What's interesting is that the free style nature of the game allows people to overthink their stage strategy to the point that they crash and burn with it (not sure if that's what you mean by overthink). I've seen several people who really try to "game" a stage have it blow up in their face - I've also seen some people "game" a stage and really do well with it by being able to eliminate 1 or 2 positions or reloads and make significant gains on someone by thinking outside the normal shoot 8, reload and move shoot 8

You know I've actually seen that. I was shooting a match with Frank Garcia, he gamed the stage really well and I agree that it was a fantastic stage plan. But it was running on the ragged edge, only make up shots would result in a standing slide lock reload which screws up the rest of his plan as he had planned it based on always have 10+1. Of course he had a make up shot crashed and burned resulting in second place overall. Another shooter in our squad decided to use Frank's plan, and it worked well for him.

[cclaxton]

And all I hear from many IDPA guys is about how USPSA is full of race guns, the enmity between the sports isn't just one way. If you try to educate them that the same guns that are competitive in SSP are competitive in production, and that ESP guns aren't half bad Limited guns, they will totally ignore you.

Until that enmity stops, I don't think it is in a USPSA shooter's best interests to push shooters into IDPA, if the goal is to grow USPSA.

PPG, I think you have set up an argument against supporting IDPA simply based on *some* IDPA shooters who may have said/written something bad about race guns and USPSA. At the clubs I attend no one puts USPSA down because of race guns....no one. They do say that they can't afford to shoot a race gun, but everyone is aware of Production Division. But it's not just the race gun, it's the belt, the speed mag holders, etc. I shoot with my regular Instructor Belt and clip on mag holders and I tell people that is perfectly fine for Production. I never hear negative comments about USPSA...just questions about how it is different.

I have consistently supported IDPA and USPSA in this forum and my experience is that most IDPA shooters say neutral or positive things about USPSA. But, I don't hear the same supportive statements from USPSA shooters. I hear how much better USPSA is...I hear complaints about dropping loaded mags...I hear making fun of vests....I even hear making fun of cover...I hear IDPA shooters are so inferior to USPSA shooters. I hear this ALL THE TIME, including in this forum.

If I took the same attitude you did, then I would never recommend USPSA because they don't show any respect for IDPA. But, I believe in modelling the behavior you want from others. So, I will continue to support USPSA as a sport and ask the USPSA shooters do the same for IDPA. That benefits us both.
Cody

[JV_]

I hear how much better USPSA is...I hear complaints about dropping loaded mags...I hear making fun of vests....I even hear making fun of cover...I hear IDPA shooters are so inferior to USPSA shooters. I hear this ALL THE TIME, including in this forum. IDPA people complain about the same things! I've shot a handful of IDPA matches over the past few years. At every single match, while everyone was milling around waiting to get started, there are large groups of people constantly complaining about the rules. They complain about everything, like they're a group of old people reminiscing about the past and how messed up things are today.

Talk about zapping the fun out of something ... get a few of those guys on your squad and you'll experience it.

I can't recall ever seeing the complaining folks come in the top 5. The top shooters all recognize it's a game, we're all playing by the same rules, and will do what's needed to win - or try to win.

[PPGMD]

I have consistently supported IDPA and USPSA in this forum and my experience is that most IDPA shooters say neutral or positive things about USPSA. But, I don't hear the same supportive statements from USPSA shooters. I hear how much better USPSA is...I hear complaints about dropping loaded mags...I hear making fun of vests....I even hear making fun of cover...I hear IDPA shooters are so inferior to USPSA shooters. I hear this ALL THE TIME, including in this forum.

Of course we are making fun of the vest, even most IDPA shooters realize how stupid the vests are, I remember when my entire squad at a sanctioned match was making fun of a fishing scenario where wearing a cover garment weren't required it was something along the lines of "How can we go fishing without our fishing vests?" But honestly we don't complain that much at the matches, we would roll our eyes at stupid scenarios, and poke fun at those that take things way too seriously.

As far as USPSA shooters being better than IDPA shooters. I would say that on average that the shooting skill level of USPSA shooters is much higher than IDPA shooters. Many experts have observed that.


If I took the same attitude you did, then I would never recommend USPSA because they don't show any respect for IDPA. But, I believe in modelling the behavior you want from others. So, I will continue to support USPSA as a sport and ask the USPSA shooters do the same for IDPA. That benefits us both.

I think this is the first time you've ever mentioned shooting USPSA. And almost all your posts on USPSA in this forum is more along the lines of antagonizing things. I am seriously if you shot USPSA you would know that hit factor scoring is at the heart of the sport.

Besides which this thread is about growing USPSA, not about growing shooting sports in general. If the goal is to grow USPSA, you grow USPSA.


I can't recall ever seeing the complaining folks come in the top 5. The top shooters all recognize it's a game, we're all playing by the same rules, and will do what's needed to win - or try to win.

Top shooters also know well enough not to complain publicly about certain things, as it can cost them sponsors.

[jetfire]

I don't agree that the average IDPA shooter is worse than the average USPSA shooter. I think the average USPSA shooter is probably a C-class dude, and because C-class is so huge in terms of the skill level it makes for a pretty deep pool. But if the average IDPA shooter is a mid-to-upper sharpshooter and the average USPSA shooter is middlin' C-class, then they're probably about equal.

It's when you get into the IDPA Master rank where things get messed up, because an IDPA Master is probably about a mid-high B, and up. There are Masters who are legit GMs (like Vogel or Mink) and Masters that are forever stuck in A-class (like me).

[cclaxton]

IDPA people complain about the same things! I've shot a handful of IDPA matches over the past few years. At every single match, while everyone was milling around waiting to get started, there are large groups of people constantly complaining about the rules. They complain about everything, like they're a group of old people reminiscing about the past and how messed up things are today.

Talk about zapping the fun out of something ... get a few of those guys on your squad and you'll experience it.

I can't recall ever seeing the complaining folks come in the top 5. The top shooters all recognize it's a game, we're all playing by the same rules, and will do what's needed to win - or try to win.
That is a fair complaint...about complaining. I don't complain about the rules. Sometimes I want to change them or, as a MD have stages that don't always follow the rules exactly. But you can't write rules to cover every circumstance. And even sanctioned matches break the rules....to me it's about following the rules for match design as much as possible....but it's not always possible. Recently there has been a big change in the rule book and change is hard for people...so they complain. I see no reason. I do try and understand them better so I can explain them to others.

There are always going to be some squads like that...I just ignore the negativity. I am a positive guy....most of the time.
Cody
Cody

[Jared]

I don't agree that the average IDPA shooter is worse than the average USPSA shooter. I think the average USPSA shooter is probably a C-class dude, and because C-class is so huge in terms of the skill level it makes for a pretty deep pool. But if the average IDPA shooter is a mid-to-upper sharpshooter and the average USPSA shooter is middlin' C-class, then they're probably about equal.

It's when you get into the IDPA Master rank where things get messed up, because an IDPA Master is probably about a mid-high B, and up. There are Masters who are legit GMs (like Vogel or Mink) and Masters that are forever stuck in A-class (like me).


To be honest, the times I referenced the talent pool discrepancy, I was referring to the differences between the average USPSA GM and M vs. the average IDPA Master, where you note a difference. I agree that the middle C vs the middle SS is probably pretty much a wash. I worded my previous posts vaguely, my fault there.

[Jared]

The real rub is that none of the gun games are targeted for the average CCW holder. The "average" CCW holder is carrying an LCP in his pocket regardless of what he tells his buddies on Glocktalk. The real message we should be wondering about is how should USPSA go about attracting shooters to their organization whose primary focus is concealed carry. Essentially, more guys like Gabe.

Actually, a really good process would be "How could we get the average CCW holder to be more like OrigamiAK in general." But I don't think that's entirely possible. That desire is probably one that is either present or it isn't, and prodding probably wouldn't change anything.

[Jay Cunningham]

What could/should USPSA do to attract the average CCW holder?


Perhaps stop continuously berating and making fun of them?

Just a thought.

[cclaxton]

Perhaps stop continuously berating and making fun of them?

Just a thought.
+1
Cody

[cclaxton]

Or, just be happy with USPSA as it is? USPSA is really not a game intended for CCW, anyway.

Here is what I would say: "We support our brothers at IDPA for concealed carry applications, and we know that also shooting USPSA will help IDPA/CCW shooters gain speed and they will have fun shooting in a freeform style."

Here is what I say about USPSA: "I love IDPA for concealed carry applications, but I recommend shooting some USPSA to help you build up your speed and get in more trigger time."

Surely the world is big enough for both sports to coexist and both be prosperous.
Cody

[orionz06]

Why does one need to be happy with things how they are? Why place silly limits on yourself?

[JeffJ]

I think some folks around here might be confusing Doodie Project and the membership of USPSA at large.

[ford.304]

I think some folks around here might be confusing Doodie Project and the membership of USPSA at large.

I will say, when I think of the internet presence of USPSA, I think of Brian Enos' forums first, Doodie Project second.

[PPGMD]

Or, just be happy with USPSA as it is? USPSA is really not a game intended for CCW, anyway.

We aren't talking about changing USPSA in any way, simply to get more people to shoot it by marketing it better.


Surely the world is big enough for both sports to coexist and both be prosperous.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Tm9Vvo63n8A/UM6RjlwUF1I/AAAAAAAATG8/Hm9MpeJqApw/s400/khrushchev_shoe1.jpg

No we will bury IDPA. :p

Again we aren't talking about IDPA, we are talking about broadening the appeal of USPSA through better marketing. I know that your world revolves around IDPA, but we aren't talking about IDPA except in the fact that the are successful at marketing to the press and many shooters new to competition. I believe that USPSA can do a bit of draw through that crowd via better marketing.

[cclaxton]

I get the marketing thing, but if the GAME isn't a concealed carry game, then why try to attract CCW shooters? Your better bet is to market to IDPA shooters who need to get more trigger time and pick up some speed.
Cody

[PPGMD]

I get the marketing thing, but if the GAME isn't a concealed carry game, then why try to attract CCW shooters?

Because you can run around and shoot stuff as god intended. Indoor shooting ranges, and NRA style commercial outdoor shooting ranges are an abomination.

I think many people that experience the joy of not being on the traditional shooting range will love it. Watch the latest episode of Noir, they take the lady co-host out to a competition style range for the first time and she absolutely loved it.

[cclaxton]

It just sounds like you want it both ways: You want to attract Concealed Carry Shooters, but then you don't want to change the GAME to make it more appealing to CCW shooters. Shooting for Self Defense is not just running fast and shooting stuff, and pretty sure God would want me to use cover. And, don't give me the "you can shoot the stage any way you want BS"...because the GAME doesn't reward that behavior and stages are not designed with that in mind.

What is also sounds like is that you just don't want to give IDPA the legitimacy it deserves. "Make USPSA attractive to CCW shooters and then they don't need IDPA."
Cody

[PPGMD]

It just sounds like you want it both ways: You want to attract Concealed Carry Shooters, but then you don't want to change the GAME to make it more appealing to CCW shooters. Shooting for Self Defense is not just running fast and shooting stuff, and pretty sure God would want me to use cover. And, don't give me the "you can shoot the stage any way you want BS"...because the GAME doesn't reward that behavior and stages are not designed with that in mind.

What is also sounds like is that you just don't want to give IDPA the legitimacy it deserves. "Make USPSA attractive to CCW shooters and then they don't need IDPA."

I made no such statement. In fact my statement could be used to support IDPA too.

I simply think that when shooters get a taste of any sport that takes them outside the traditional shooting range that they will enjoy it. That is why I think that USPSA can be successful at appealing at CCW shooters.

You are WAY too sensitive of any perceived slight to IDPA. Hell I think most of your participation from this thread is because we want to market to first time competition shooters so that they come directly to USPSA, instead of IDPA which has a better marketing arm to those people. I simply want to get more shooters and more press attention to USPSA.

I honestly could care less about IDPA anymore, if they are successful great; if they go bankrupt that is Joyce's fault not mine. I don't shoot IDPA anymore and I really don't have a driving need to discuss the sport unless someone brings it up. I only use IDPA as an example of successful marketing to new shooters, and I ask what can USPSA do to market to new shooters?

[orionz06]

How do you attract more CCW shooters? Make them wear vests!

[orionz06]

What people really need to know is that it is just shooting. To a slow IDPA player they think that one game is more applicable than the other but they're the same. IDPA does have "cover" to use it loosely. They have imaginary cover that doesn't actually represent using cover. IDPA does have "concealment" but it's imaginary because everyone has competition specific equipment for their concealment garment. If people knew that uspsa was like IDPA without the pretend stuff maybe they would participate.

[cclaxton]

What people really need to know is that it is just shooting. To a slow IDPA player they think that one game is more applicable than the other but they're the same. IDPA does have "cover" to use it loosely. They have imaginary cover that doesn't actually represent using cover. IDPA does have "concealment" but it's imaginary because everyone has competition specific equipment for their concealment garment. If people knew that uspsa was like IDPA without the pretend stuff maybe they would participate.

Orionz,
You want it both ways, too. You want to make it *seem* the same but it's not. They are different, otherwise we wouldn't have thousands of lines of postings about IDPA v USPSA. It is true that shooting SKILLS are shooting SKILLS, but the game operations are different: targets, TIME+, Cover, Concealment, Priority, etc. We have real barricades or barrels that really have to be used for cover. We don't specify vests. I have seen plenty of people shoot with an unbuttoned shirt or a CCW shirt that rips open on the side or just a jacket. They can be anything the shooter wants as long as it covers the gun and mags and is safe. It's not imaginary when you have a very fast disappearing target and your concealment garment gets caught up and makes you slow to the draw...been there. There is no "pretend stuff." Cover, concealment and priority are real operations that must be performed that impact your speed and accuracy. Not to mention reloading restrictions.

The operations of the GAMES are very different and everybody knows it....you are pretending if you think otherwise. For shooting SKILL (Grip, Trigger control, Sighting, movement, etc.), I agree. People are attracted to IDPA because its both SKILL and Defensive aspects. People are attracted to USPSA because of SKILL and Competition aspects.
Cody

[orionz06]

But it's not really defensive aspects. It's larping with a pistol. While cover and concealment must be real they are not adequately represented in the game. IDPA has a pretend rule that is marginally different from a shooting box.


We have thousands of lines of text about IDPA most because it's all you go on about.

[Drang]

But it's not really defensive aspects. It's larping with a pistol.
LOL! One internetz, coming up!

[jetfire]

Relevant to this post, today I wrote the business of the shooting sports part three, talking about USPSA (http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/06/04/the-business-of-the-shooting-sports-united-states-practical-shooting-association/).

At the end of the day, USPSA seems to be an organization of contradictions. The best product, the worst marketing, brilliant match successes, incredible failures. Tremendous shooter participation and engagement, slow growth. USPSA, in an election year, with participation in the shooting sports on the rise across the board, may find itself at the crossroads.

[PPGMD]

It's larping with a pistol.

Ok that is funny.

[cclaxton]

But it's not really defensive aspects. It's larping with a pistol. While cover and concealment must be real they are not adequately represented in the game. IDPA has a pretend rule that is marginally different from a shooting box.


We have thousands of lines of text about IDPA most because it's all you go on about.
Just because it's not the be-all and end-all of tactical training doesn't mean it is not valuable skill development.
It deserves respect, and deserves the same brotherly treatment we give USPSA.
Cody

[JV_]

Just because it's not the be-all and end-all of tactical training....

It's not tactical training. It's just a game. They're both GAMES.

[PPGMD]

Cody,

I think you need to take a step back, you are taking this way too seriously. Heck you jumped on my back about disparaging IDPA with a post that did nothing of the sort. As far as I can remember no one brought up IDPA in a disparaging manner until you came in here and said USPSA should become like IDPA. You keep on doing that and people are going to attack IDPA.

None of us want to turn USPSA into IDPA. But we do want to figure out what makes it a success to recruiting new shooters while USPSA has remained stagnant, and use that to help bring more people into the USPSA fold so that we may continue to grow.

[Mr_White]

I kind of scratch my head when it comes to thinking of a way to market. The only way readily apparent to me is to directly invite non-competing shooters who I personally know to come and try (or watch) a USPSA match. I take care to squad with them and try to help them through their first match. That's the only thing I know to do.

So, to brainstorm a little bit on potential angles of marketing:

Exciting, action-packed video: I showed two friends who are gun owners and in favor of guns for self-defense, but don't train and don't shoot frequently, a video of me shooting a USPSA match, and within ten seconds of viewing, they both had big grins and asked what they had to do in order to participate.

Reframing ideas of skill: This is very much me coming from the defensive training world, a place where at least some new-to-CCW people are found - let shooters see, in person if possible, or on video if needed, what a high level (big picture here) of skill with a pistol looks like. Let them see someone shooting a relatively stock pistol better and faster than they understood to be possible. Reframing my definition of 'very skilled' is what it took for me to want to have that skill. A quest for technical skill that is based on recognition of true human potential with a pistol is very likely to bring a person into contact with the competitive world.

[hank440]

How about putting on a free or inexpensive skill building classes for new shooters, complete with a training journal to show their progress ??

[orionz06]

This is done on a local level here. Last time I saw there were 60 some new shooters at what was called a "USPSA orientation."

[Jared]

Exciting, action-packed video: I showed two friends who are gun owners and in favor of guns for self-defense, but don't train and don't shoot frequently, a video of me shooting a USPSA match, and within ten seconds of viewing, they both had big grins and asked what they had to do in order to participate.



I think that can be an awesome way to market the sport, particularly, as you mentioned if it's done with shooter with a relatively stock gun. When people see video of really good shooters run a USPSA stage, the usual reaction is positive. Example, I tried to explain to my wife what all went on at a match. When I shot that Level II last year, the Open winner posted a video on Facebook of him shooting each stage. Since it was the match I'd just got done shooting, she was really receptive to watching it. After it was over, she looked at me wide eyed and said something to the effect of "That's so cool. I had no idea that was what it looked like."

That video really helped her understand what I was doing when I was at a match. She still doesn't go with me, but she's even more supportive of me going than she was before.

[Jared]

How about putting on a free or inexpensive skill building classes for new shooters, complete with a training journal to show their progress ??

Some clubs do this, although exactly what they do varies a bit. One of the clubs that I go to is considering starting Wednesday night "practice matches" or something like that to help new shooters get oriented to both USPSA and 3Gun, depending on the week. If I lived closer, I would drive up and help out with the USPSA stuff, but it's just too far for me in the middle of the work week.

[Jared]

I get the marketing thing, but if the GAME isn't a concealed carry game, then why try to attract CCW shooters?

Cody

The reason I titled this thread with CCW holder as opposed to Gun Owner is because my personal experience with the average gun owner around home is a guy with a duck shotgun, a slug gun for deer, and a 10/22. A LOT of folks where I come from don't own handguns at all. And I personally have no problem with that whatsoever. It is admittedly a biased viewpoint that I have, and the situation is changing slowly. But my perception is that a CCW holder is somewhat more likely to practice pistol skills than the overall average gun owner.

Honestly, at this point, I wish I'd just titled the thread "how could USPSA market itself in a way to get more people to come out and try it," or "what demographic should USPSA target with their marketing and how should they market."

[cclaxton]

Cody, I think you need to take a step back, you are taking this way too seriously. Heck you jumped on my back about disparaging IDPA with a post that did nothing of the sort. As far as I can remember no one brought up IDPA in a disparaging manner until you came in here and said USPSA should become like IDPA. You keep on doing that and people are going to attack IDPA.

None of us want to turn USPSA into IDPA. But we do want to figure out what makes it a success to recruiting new shooters while USPSA has remained stagnant, and use that to help bring more people into the USPSA fold so that we may continue to grow.
On Seriously: I don't take this any more seriously than the level of seriousness you show towards promoting USPSA for Concealed Carry shooters.
On saying disparaging things about IDPA as a reaction to what I said: OK, the good thing is the words in this string are there to read. This is factually untrue. Here is the evidence:
1) Before I had written a single word in this topic, YVK wrote this:
There is already one shooting sport that kittens up its content by the "real life orientation" of a pretense, and resultant contrived rules etc. USPSA should stay as far away from this as possible. He obviously was referring to IDPA.
2) Before I had written a single word in this topic, Fourtrax wrote this:
Therein lies the problem with some CCW/IDPA types, ........USPSA is EGO crushing.
3) I didn't say that USPSA should become more like IDPA. What I said was this:
Move to TIME+ Scoring, and dump the sponsored shirts, provide opportunities for use of cover, and stop making fun of people (Or orgs) who aren't as great a shooter as YOU...that is not aimed at anyone in particular....just saying...plenty of ego going around in USPSA. The "EGO crushing comment" is a perfect example of the arrogance that scares people away. Learn to be good coaches. and this:
I still think the whole idea of USPSA v IDPA is stupid. They are different for good reasons, and whenever we get new people involved in pistol competition it makes them safer when they CC, it makes them better CC shooters, and it makes them better LEO's. It makes them more responsible gun owners. I will continue to support and attend both, and it just seems arrogant to try and make one better than the other. and this:
Stages are not designed for use of cover or concealment. They are based on speed and competitive challenge. When I said, "Create opportunities for cover or concealment" I meant changing how stages are built to create cover and concealment and through course design force people to use it. I rarely see this done. and this:
Or, just be happy with USPSA as it is? USPSA is really not a game intended for CCW, anyway. Here is what I would say: "We support our brothers at IDPA for concealed carry applications, and we know that also shooting USPSA will help IDPA/CCW shooters gain speed and they will have fun shooting in a freeform style." Here is what I say about USPSA: "I love IDPA for concealed carry applications, but I recommend shooting some USPSA to help you build up your speed and get in more trigger time."

For the record: I don't think you should turn USPSA into IDPA. I do think there are ways you could do stage designs that force use of cover and concealment and priority, but within the existing game rules.

I gave you a golden opportunity to get new shooters...by showing respect for IDPA and encouraging IDPA shooters to use USPSA for speed improvement and excellent trigger time. Business decisions should be made without emotions clouding your analysis. Regardless of your personal feelings about Joyce and IDPA, you should make the best business decision if you are serious about increasing membership and participation in USPSA.

There needs to be an effort to build the partnership between IDPA and USPSA and see them as both equally valuable, complementary, and welcoming to new shooters regardless where they start or whether they wear a vest.
Cody

[Trooper224]

Honestly, at this point, I wish I'd just titled the thread "how could USPSA market itself in a way to get more people to come out and try it," or "what demographic should USPSA target with their marketing and how should they market."

It is unfortunate that what could have been a productive discussion has been derailed by the, "My dad can beat up your dad!" syndrome.

[TheTrevor]

Perhaps stop continuously berating and making fun of them?

Just a thought.

I personally have never encountered that, either in person at local USPSA clubs or in any form of media. Maybe I'm just not hanging out with the right crowd.

In fact, since I switched from Production to Limited-10 AIWB from concealment, I have gotten nothing but positive feedback and serious interest in how I carry and compete. Granted, I carry 4 out of 5 of my mags on my outer belt (because L10) but I still enjoy running into the occasional RO who hasn't seen me shoot before and asks if I've forgotten my gun.

[orionz06]

So browsing Facebook yesterday because I needed a break from laughing at this thread I found 3 friends who are new handgun owners. They have sufficient funds to acquire ammo and training and play some gun games. Bear in mind my locale may differ from others but IDPA here seems slightly more accessible. It does, to them, also seem to be an older game full of fat guys in vests. Their words, not mine. What was successful in sorta changing their mind was the next generation of gun bloggers. Most are under 30 and are accessible enough that I may be able to get the kids out to shoot a match. The media created by these people isn't out of this world or terribad. It is real and it shows young people doing it.

You don't attract young people by showcasing folks that aren't young. Looking over the USPSA's Facebook page it just looks old. The logo, the photos, the people. IDPA on the other hand has a modern looking logo. The gentlemen on their cover photo is old with a grey goatee but the comment on the photo livens it up. I go to the photos section and I see a few layouts and some sponsor pics along with a few people. All wearing vests. Now while the argument goes back and forth there, and I don't with to perpetuate it but it needs said... Young people don't wear that shit. The only people who wear that crap are carrying guns and everyone knows it. Even then, a sport that I would bet money on being overall older STILL looks younger. Branding is very important. Logos are very important. Social media is very important. Thankfully if USPSA is gonna drop the ball one can still pick it up in their own region.


So Jared, I would say if your area appears to be lacking why not start a Facebook group? "Action shooting in ______"? Use some new images, make your own content, and seek the help of a few others and get the ball rolling. Seek out local campus carry groups. If USPSA won't make things look fresh you still can.


I only glanced at Caleb's articles and he touches on some other stuff. I'll read it all at once when I get a chance (read when I am getting paid to read it at work) but I think he is in tune with it. Maybe he can chime in with an "action plan" that one or a few people can use in their region.

[Tamara]

But it's not really defensive aspects. It's larping with a pistol.

Awesome. :D

[ford.304]

Some clubs do this, although exactly what they do varies a bit. One of the clubs that I go to is considering starting Wednesday night "practice matches" or something like that to help new shooters get oriented to both USPSA and 3Gun, depending on the week. If I lived closer, I would drive up and help out with the USPSA stuff, but it's just too far for me in the middle of the work week.

I think this is exactly the right idea.

The thing is... with practical shooting, it's so much about the practice you do outside the match. If people don't know how to do that, or don't have an opportunity to do that, it's tough to just walk up to a USPSA match and start shooting.

Our autocross club does a cheap all day training class at the start of the season. It works wonders for getting new people into the game.

Another thing that could be done is a special novice division, and an end of year reward for most improved.

For that matter... aside from your classification, do club level USPSA matches have any concept of a "season"? It's a good motivation to come back for a lot of people in autocross when you're competing for season points and you need to get enough matches to have count.

While I'm thinking... why are pistol training classes all one day/one weekend things? Why not organize a whole "new shooter season" club training package that takes someone through the year of uspsa shooting, with regular scheduled practice for 2 hours a week on an evening? If you want people to keep coming back, keep them *engaged*.

[Chris Rhines]

I think this is exactly the right idea.

The thing is... with practical shooting, it's so much about the practice you do outside the match. If people don't know how to do that, or don't have an opportunity to do that, it's tough to just walk up to a USPSA match and start shooting.

Our autocross club does a cheap all day training class at the start of the season. It works wonders for getting new people into the game.

Another thing that could be done is a special novice division, and an end of year reward for most improved.

For that matter... aside from your classification, do club level USPSA matches have any concept of a "season"? It's a good motivation to come back for a lot of people in autocross when you're competing for season points and you need to get enough matches to have count.

While I'm thinking... why are pistol training classes all one day/one weekend things? Why not organize a whole "new shooter season" club training package that takes someone through the year of uspsa shooting, with regular scheduled practice for 2 hours a week on an evening? If you want people to keep coming back, keep them *engaged*.

These are the best ideas I've heard yet in this thread.

[ford.304]

I don't know why this hadn't occurred to me before...

If I want to get in shape, I go to the morning group class at the gym three times a week, or I get a personal trainer I see 2-3 times a month.

If I want to learn to play guitar, I go to lessons once a week.

If I want to learn to shoot, I... go to one 2-day $400 (plus another $400 in ammunition) class, and then I practice on my own for the rest of the summer, except for when I go to matches. Which really *aren't* practice - they're competitions. Practice requires repetition, not problem solving a different course once.

Why *aren't* organized practice groups more of a thing with local gun clubs? Why aren't regular private/small group lessons advertised in big letters at every gun counter instead of big weekend shoots? Is there just a practical/logistical thing keeping it from happening?

Even something as simple as a weekly "100 round training session" in a firing line, with any NRA instructor there to critique form, would probably do *wonders* for raising the average classification and gun handling skills of the group.

There's such a cultural gap of shooting as a "fun activity" rather than a "skill to be trained."

[Jay Cunningham]

I personally have never encountered that, either in person at local USPSA clubs or in any form of media. Maybe I'm just not hanging out with the right crowd.

It's a purely internet (FB & discussion forum) phenomenon. It doesn't matter if everyone's a nice guy at a match. FACT: Many USPSA devotees come across as spiteful Aspies on teh interwebz. If you haven't seen this "in any form of media" then you haven't seen much media.

The OP was asking something about USPSA appealing to the "average CCW holder" - we can all read between the lines and say "the average CCW holder" is usually lumped into IDPA (i.e. poor to average shooters) and the really good shooters (who continuously make fun of the "tactitards"... IMO not unreasonably sometimes) are hardcore USPSA.

Not my definitions but I've seen the above in my little meanderings on the web enough times to know it's achieved meme status - to deny this is to deny reality. Is it important? No.

[orionz06]

The real world is filled with people who can go back and forth between the games without issue. All of them have normal jobs.

[Jared]

The OP was asking something about USPSA appealing to the "average CCW holder" - we can all read between the lines and say "the average CCW holder" is usually lumped into IDPA (i.e. poor to average shooters) and the really good shooters (who continuously make fun of the "tactitards"... IMO not unreasonably sometimes) are hardcore USPSA.



Mr. Cunningham,

When I typed average CCW holder, I did not mean "poor shooter." I explained above why I said average CCW holder as opposed to average gun owner. But to read between the lines, I'll explain my thought process when I used the term "average."

I group CCW holders into roughly 3 groups. Non-dedicated, middle of the road, and highly motivated. The non-dedicated group, to my mind, doesn't carry much and hardly ever practices. This is probably the largest group. The middle of the road types, again to my mind, practice more. They maybe hit the range one or two times per month. They carry more often than the non dedicated ones do, as well as practice more often. The highly motivated group would probably best be described as guys like OrigamiAK.

I somewhat reasoned that the middle group might not have ever really heard about USPSA. I figured Group 1 wouldn't care even if they did hear. I also figured group 3 would hear about it as they moved through their skill building process. I used the term average to describe that middle of the road group because the terms are somewhat synonymous.

[TheTrevor]

The OP was asking something about USPSA appealing to the "average CCW holder" - we can all read between the lines and say "the average CCW holder" is usually lumped into IDPA (i.e. poor to average shooters) and the really good shooters (who continuously make fun of the "tactitards"... IMO not unreasonably sometimes) are hardcore USPSA.

Interesting perspective. I read it somewhat differently: "average CCW holder" == "shooter who carries at least occasionally, and currently goes to a square range 8-10 times/year but has never tried competitive shooting".

[Drang]

How about putting on a free or inexpensive skill building classes for new shooters, complete with a training journal to show their progress ??

Next issue of the Washington Arms Collectors' magazine showed up yesterday, there's an ad there for "IDPA Classes, Second Saturday of The Month" at Renton Fish & Game.

[PPGMD]

Next issue of the Washington Arms Collectors' magazine showed up yesterday, there's an ad there for "IDPA Classes, Second Saturday of The Month" at Renton Fish & Game.

At one of the clubs I shoot at in Florida:

Action Pistol Beginner Course

With the popularity of Action Pistol growing all over the country we are seeing more people want in on our games at the WAC. We have two to three action pistol matches per week including IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge and hybrid style.

This class is designed to help you be prepared for the action pistol matches. Equipment, rules, etiquette, and safety are covered in a 3 hour course. Classroom and on the range shooting included. Perfect for the experienced shooter wanting to improve their skills.

2nd Saturday Monthly
Action Bays Classroom
9:00am-12:00 noon
Leave your ego at home
Bring your equipment. Pistol (encased), holster, magazines and pouches, eye and ear protection, ammunition (100+ rounds), etc. Plan for classroom time and time on range (sun, bugs, heat etc)

Who: The class is for new shooting competitors, not necessarily for brand-new shooters.
How Much: We are charging $10 for WAC members and $20 for non-members to pay range fees.

It is a USPSA class, they never label their USPSA matches as USPSA for some reason, likely due to the club name being WAC Action Pistol. But Action Pistol is run as a USPSA match, and they submit scores to USPSA.

[jetfire]

Next issue of the Washington Arms Collectors' magazine showed up yesterday, there's an ad there for "IDPA Classes, Second Saturday of The Month" at Renton Fish & Game.

Who's the instructor? Because if it's who I think it is, I wouldn't go.

[Aray]

What is also sounds like is that you just don't want to give IDPA the legitimacy it deserves. "Make USPSA attractive to CCW shooters and then they don't need IDPA."
Cody

What legitimacy exactly is it that IDPA deserves? It is a game, just like USPSA except with dumb clothes.

Why must you keep going on and on about IDPA in a thread about improving USPSA?

I just read this entire thread and my big takeaway is Cody likes IDPA.

[Drang]

Who's the instructor? Because if it's who I think it is, I wouldn't go.

I don't know, you probably do, and may well be correct. (Actually, come to think of it, I may know the person, but not they teaching this class.) I was simply pointing out that it is possible to advertise this sort of thing where newbies might see it.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The average CCW type probably doesn't even carry the gun that much. An informal poll by TX CHL instructors found 80% of their students didn't. I'd better a similar majority have no training beyond the TX CHL class. I doubt they shoot their gun even once a month.

So after reading, this thread - I conclude that USPSA probably cannot attract the average CCW type on its own. Nor can IDPA. The motivation is some external to the gun games, internal to the person and those that have will find a competition they like. That was my story - when I decide to carry a gun, I decided I needed to train and then that led to various competitions. It was internal to me.

Now, if you can get a person to the game - being supportive, etc. is good.

The IDPA vs. USPSA - we are the better - boring. Shoot what you like and is convenient. Want to dress up like a bumble bee with logos fine. Want to wear a concealment vest that you never wear out - fine. Want to look like a cowperson - fine. Want to shoot steel with something that looks like a photon blaster - fine with me. Want to have an AR with every accessory including a George Foreman grill in the stock so you can make a burger between 3G stages - sound yummy.

[Sal Picante]

Man it was a long winter in Chicago: I made GM in USPSA production, switched away from my Beretta's to some CZ goodness, and then got really busy with work and burned the hell out... :(

This thread is really interesting and I wanted to add some of my insights here. See, I haven't really been shooting for all that long, getting my first taste of USPSA in December of 2007, then finding out that there are actually more matches, and majors, out there in ~2010, and I've been reflecting on some of this for a while...

See, back in those days, USPSA and IDPA both didn't have "social marketing" and "club finders"... People pretty much had to dig up the info from the old timers about which club had which match on which day, replete with total retard stuff like: "Oh but remember, this is a leap year so they aren't shooting the 5th Sunday in August..."

Being a savvy sorta guy with some time on my hands, I decided to start a blog serving all of the action shooting sports in the region surrounding Chicago: WIILSHOOT.COM was born.

I consolidated every club calendars and made weekly entires to highlight matches and reputable competition-based training in the area. I know I introduced a lot of people to the sport. In the processes of healing the rift between the McHenry IDPA club and the McHenry USPSA clubs I know I got a lot of people out there to start trying out different events; steel challenge, USPSA, IDPA, outlaw, etc...

What it took was a bit of organization (find all the clubs and setup a site) a bit of personality (get to know the directors and people in involved), and appeal to the type of folks out there. Specifically, Caleb had just really entered the "Gun Culture 2.0" debate and that, I decided, was who I really wanted to target: younger, mostly professional people looking for a challenge or hobby.

There are a lot of folks out there that just don't know that stuff like this exists. I think those people need a familiar face in the largely same demographic to guide 'em through without pretense (IDPA sux! No - USPSA is for gay-mers!) and just get them out to pull the trigger safely. These people aren't total F(*king idiots and will make their own choices, putting their time and attention to the endeavors that they feel with give them some intrinsic reward.

Adding some opinions here:

1.) Though I thought Okie John's post was interesting, I don't know if something like branding is necessarily the best way to market the sport(s) - the trouble is that a lot of folks just don't know that they even exist. Most local ranges don't even understand the difference between the two sports...

So... How to increase some visibility?

I think that USPSA and IDPA should both be focused on helping competition trainers, tactical trainers, and perhaps even existing NRA trainers out there promote the sports through promotional material, incentives, etc. These people probably reach a far broader audience and, since they're usually the first point of contact, a lot of folks take their word seriously.

2.) Perceived Rules Complexity is sometimes an issues - more so with USPSA than IDPA... The reality is that MikeG (and we've spoken about this a lot offline) is right that a lot of the rule book in USPSA is to handle oddball scoring discrepancies, establish fairness, etc. I think that USPSA should encourage a friendly face (Jessie Duff? Julie G? Bob Vogel?) to do a "Beginners guide to USPSA" video and promote it heavily on the site, in blogs, etc. Focus on safety, fun, "See the targets? Yeah? Aim for the center..." and don't delve into the arcane stuff that makes USPSA appealing when someone really starts getting it at a higher level (Ex. Classifier dissection or Match points and strategic performance - if you don't know, PM me...)

(As an aside, I think it is interesting that even though IDPA rules are easier to "get" in the beginning, they sorta had to rewrite parts to ensure clubs were going to do things more commonly in the future... )

I really thing that USPSA, in particular, is only confusing since some people present it as such... What is telling is that once most people shoot IDPA for a while, they start to migrate to the challenges that USPSA seems to possess and do generally ok with it. (More penalties, tougher shots, etc...)


3.) Beginners season

Someone mentioned this a while back (sorry, I didn't catch the name...) and this is a great idea! I wish more trainers encouraged or dedicated time to bringing some newer guys up through the ranks. It is exhausting from a training perspective, but very rewarding. I just did a 4-month race to B-class in USPSA with two guys: http://ashootingjourney.blogspot.com

I think some trainers could really focus and encourage this sort of dialog (shameless plug, I do a lot of Coache's Eye critique...)


4.) I think that there is this big mixup between CCW equipment and competition, perhaps using that equipment... People tend to game-ify everything, but I think there is a market for a non-competition venue/training with CCW gear. MikeG and I have really spoken about this a lot - for most normal people, it is goofy stuff like: you're out walking the dog when kittens go down. No buzzer, no scoring...

How do we encourage that competence/problem solving? I think understanding gear/compromises through racing helps, but sometimes it is just being presented with a goofy challenge that you have to puzzle out is 1/2 the battle.

Anyway, this just spitballing ideas bit since I've been drinking since noon.


Some footnotes:
1.) I pretty much stopped shooting IDPA for two reasons: Not because of the rules, etc, but because the stages started to get a bit lame around here. The second reason was more subtle: I didn't like the fact that HQ created DM status... It was almost like a ploy to encourage some top-level shooters to stay in IDPA to get the designation... I dunno. I like rankings that are based on a measurable standard of some sort.

2.) WIILSHOOT.COM is going... It was a fun ride, but took a lot of my energy. Since there was no money or anything in it, I decided it had to go so I can get busy trying to catch Ben Stoeger or Eric Grauffel in the future.

[rob_s]

This is the truth of the single biggest reason any one person shoots one game over another. All the rest of the douche-y defense of a choice based on feelings is just that.

You can't market that.

In all the subsequent pages, this has become borne out by virtually every post.

People shoot with the group that they like, or shoot with first, or think is coolest on the Internet at the time, and spend the rest of their lives defending and justifying that initial, ignorant, decision.

[Sal Picante]

In all the subsequent pages, this has become borne out by virtually every post.

People shoot with the group that they like, or shoot with first, or think is coolest on the Internet at the time, and spend the rest of their lives defending and justifying that initial, ignorant, decision.


If they did, then people wouldn't migrate between the sports, which we know happens.

I think people want to be accepted in a community - if both sets of people are cool, they do both... But only in the long run.

[TheTrevor]

If they did, then people wouldn't migrate between the sports, which we know happens.

I think people want to be accepted in a community - if both sets of people are cool, they do both... But only in the long run.

That seems right to me. Acceptance, and feeling like you get along well with the folks you find in a community, are very important to sustained engagement. I once stopped studying a martial art because it wasn't worth the trouble to get there several times per week when all of the folks I liked training with moved on to other stuff.

It goes two ways, though. People decide whether to join a community based on whether it appeals to them. They consider affirmative stuff like whether it looks fun, and how they'll benefit from participating in terms of skills growth. They also consider negative stuff like high startup costs, "stupid" rules and practices (e.g. IDPA vests, USPSA gamer rigs, etc), and trash-talking/ridicule about the community.

[okie john]

1.) Though I thought Okie John's post was interesting, I don't know if something like branding is necessarily the best way to market the sport(s) - the trouble is that a lot of folks just don't know that they even exist. Most local ranges don't even understand the difference between the two sports...

So... How to increase some visibility?

I agree with all of your points except this one.

I suspect that our difference lies in how we define “branding”. Ideally, branding is coming up with ONE story about something we’re trying to sell and sticking to it. If we do that, then what people hear is the same whenever and wherever they hear it, which matters because people need to hear an advertising message somewhere between seven and 10 times before they remember it.

Right now, USPSA is negatively branded as "the harder sport" or "the race gun sport" or "the $2k pistol sport". This actually drives people away from it because it focuses on minor aspects of the sport that some people find problematic. If we rebrand USPSA in a positive way (such as "where good shooters go to get better"), then we shift the story to focus on good aspects of the sport. Once this happens, people are far less likely to get pulled into the kind of tallest-midget contests that have eaten up much of this thread and that inevitably derail the effort to get new people on board.

The things that you and others have brought up will all help. But they will help more when people start to think that USPSA is "where good shooters go to get better" and we've stopped the hemorrhaging that negative branding creates. This is the kind of thing that the national USPSA organization needs to handle. It's nearly impossible to do it at the club level.


Okie John

[Failure2Stop]

In all the subsequent pages, this has become borne out by virtually every post.

People shoot with the group that they like, or shoot with first, or think is coolest on the Internet at the time, and spend the rest of their lives defending and justifying that initial, ignorant, decision.
I have to assume that you are being genuine in your impression, but I disagree.

I was interested in competitive marksmanship games as soon as I heard about them, and even when recommended to shoot USPSA, I started with IDPA. It was ok initially, but the constant tactical criticism of the rulebook got annoying, especially when many of the core tenants flew in the face of actual experience and contemporary training.

USPSA had none of those negatives, and I was frequently able to watch and interact with very high level folks in local matches.

I shot them both as schedule permitted, but after hitting my goal in IDPA, I had zero interest in continuing participation. I do still shoot USCA, which is very IDPA-ish, but with a rule book that isn't as restrictive.

My intent on posting was not to play contrarian to your contrarianism, just to illustrate where I came from and why I landed where I am.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

[Sal Picante]

...because people need to hear an advertising message somewhere between seven and 10 times before they remember it.

What?

Oh... Yeah...

I think, after some further thought that you might be right about that in a vacuum.

I guess that is why I'd like to see something build up for peripheral instructors, etc to publicize both sports as avenues to consider after, say, the NRA basic pistol classes, etc...

I keep telling my students, yeah, there may be a few difficult things, but nothing insurmountable... They start to believe that line of horse-kitten too before you know it...

:)

[cclaxton]

Concealed Carry requires CONCEALMENT.
Add a concealment requirement to Production Div.
Or, create a new division using concealment.
Jerry Miculek agrees:
http://youtu.be/JGslzXxDhEU
Cody

[JeffJ]

You are free to wear concealment in Production - perhaps not everyone has the same priorities as you do Cody, ever think about that?

And Jerry shoots unconcealed a lot more than he does concealed, doesn't seem to be handicapping him much.

[1986s4]

"What could/should USPSA do to attract the average CCW holder" ?

As someone once said "real concealed carry guns have no place in IDPA" . If it is true of IDPA, a gun game that purports to cater to CCW holders, then it is certainly true of USPSA. When I shoot production I use a full size pistol, I carry a full size pistol but many carry something smaller. USPSA and IDPA are great games and I enjoy both but the time spent in a match and the perceived need to use something other than one's 5 shot pocket pistol will keep many back home. These days I'm working so much I'm not sure when I'll have time to go to a match and I love to shoot!

[PPGMD]

Concealed Carry requires CONCEALMENT.
Add a concealment requirement to Production Div.
Or, create a new division using concealment.

Seriously this again? We get it you love IDPA.


Jerry Miculek agrees:
http://youtu.be/JGslzXxDhEU

You are really reaching there.

That has nothing to do with IDPA or USPSA at all.

[Fourtrax]

People shoot with the group that they like, or shoot with first, or think is coolest on the Internet at the time, and spend the rest of their lives defending and justifying that initial, ignorant, decision.

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Of course, I also stand by my earlier "ego crushing" comment. Whether that's an IDPA shooter or someone off the streets with no competitive shooting experience. To watch an experienced competitor, even if they only have a season or two, can be fairly "ego crushing".

I've been shooting almost 11 years and I've seen it over and over. It can be almost overwhelming for some.

How do you market it better? Now sure it can be, without watering it down and making it something it is not. Don't take that as condescending or snarky, it is not. It is what I have observed after nearly 10 years and hundreds of matches.

USPSA is a fun, free thinking, fast, exciting, adrenaline pumping, skill building good time.

That is not what everyone wants when they take up a shooting sport. It is definitely not for those that have inflated egos concerning their own abilities.

[Shellback]

I was interested in competitive marksmanship games as soon as I heard about them, and even when recommended to shoot USPSA, I started with IDPA. It was ok initially, but the constant tactical criticism of the rulebook got annoying, especially when many of the core tenants flew in the face of actual experience and contemporary training.

USPSA had none of those negatives, and I was frequently able to watch and interact with very high level folks in local matches.

I shot them both as schedule permitted, but after hitting my goal in IDPA, I had zero interest in continuing participation. I do still shoot USCA, which is very IDPA-ish, but with a rule book that isn't as restrictive.

In hindsight, would you recommend going down the IDPA route? Or would you have preferred to have gone straight to USPSA?

Just curious, I have no skin in the game, and am contemplating trying to enter some local matches.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Ego crushing? Do folks not live in a competitive work environment. I started as a lowly student and then worked my way up to someone who has some respect in my chosen field. Yes, there were bumps and some experiences that were unpleasant. But you deal with them.

If the competitors are supportive to beginners and not jerks - you will attract new people. It is not the level of the best but the attitude. You find the same everywhere. A good club is supportive, another is full of buttwipes.

For a silly example, there was a fancy cheese store (a health destroying hobby and contributor to IDPA belly) - they had a crap attitude. They folded as they were arrogant and would not the discuss the nuances without being condescending. Another couple of stores are friendly - with happy staff and willing to chat. They run seminars.

I wouldn't tolerate jerks who are rude - if you run the cosmic sensei crap, bye bye. But if you are good and I can learn - I don't find you ego crushing.

Givens is a superb shot compared to me (haha). So I take his class and he picks up a flaw which has improved my game. I'm not ego crushed to watch him. He is a joy to my mirror neurons.

[rob_s]

Ego crushing? Do folks not live in a competitive work environment.

IME, generally no. Becoming truly competitive in the shooting sports requires a lot of free time. Careers that are highly competitive (A) tend to fill people's need to compete with something that comes with a tangible reward and (B) don't leave much time left over for playing games at the range, much less the time commitment necessary to get really good. So, an Arby's manager becomes a national USPSA champion while the dentists, lawyers and accountants shoot IDPA on an occasional weekend and get made fun of on internet forums. I guess they'll just have to settle for winning at life and losing at gun games. The fact that the guy who normally parks my car, or wires the security system at my house, or works the counter at the local gun shop thinks he "crushes" my ego when I come out and he puts little holes in paper closer together and faster than I do... well...

[rob_s]

In hindsight, would you recommend going down the IDPA route? Or would you have preferred to have gone straight to USPSA?

Just curious, I have no skin in the game, and am contemplating trying to enter some local matches.

I followed the same path, IDPA first and then USPSA, and now I shoot both based more on which friends will be at the match and which match lines up with my schedule.

I think IDPA was the easier starter. At the time I started, I don't think USPSA had a division that wasn't uber-gamer, or at least that was my impression (maybe that's the point of this thread, that they need to market Production division better instead of race gun shooting). Also, as much as I hear people rag on IDPA rules, I find the range-lawyering that goes on at my local USPSA club to be FAR more distasteful than any amount of tactical-ted talk. I seem to be able to avoid the Teds, but I can't seem to get the range lawyers to shut the f&ck up and get away from me no matter how much cigar smoke I blow in their face.

But here again, it comes down to your local club and who is involved. I'd say go visit both as a spectator or first-time shooter and see which group has less douchebags. Shoot with the lower number of douchebags. The DB factor REALLY matters a whole lot more than which rule book you're under.

[Shellback]

I followed the same path, IDPA first and then USPSA, and now I shoot both based more on which friends will be at the match and which match lines up with my schedule.

But here again, it comes down to your local club and who is involved. I'd say go visit both as a spectator or first-time shooter and see which group has less douchebags. Shoot with the lower number of douchebags. The DB factor REALLY matters a whole lot more than which rule book you're under.
Thanks, good idea. From reading through this thread, and a few similar, it seems like there is a high DB factor involved in the shooting sports.

[Mr_White]

Thanks, good idea. From reading through this thread, and a few similar, it seems like there is a high DB factor involved in the shooting sports.

I don't doubt that it's variable from club to club, but I personally have seen near zero dbaggery at the USPSA matches I have shot. My impression is that it gets talked about a lot more than actually happens.

[Shellback]

I don't doubt that it's variable from club to club, but I personally have seen near zero dbaggery at the USPSA matches I have shot. My impression is that it gets talked about a lot more than actually happens.

Even better. :)

[Failure2Stop]

In hindsight, would you recommend going down the IDPA route? Or would you have preferred to have gone straight to USPSA?

Just curious, I have no skin in the game, and am contemplating trying to enter some local matches.

I agree with some of Rob's observations, the crowd makes the match.
I started shooting an outlaw IDPA match at a little indoor range. The setup basically had 3 or 4 fast stages, and your squad would have an hour to shoot them all. My "squad" was mostly work buddies, and only three or four strangers shooting with us, so it was pretty enjoyable, with a lot of inside jokes and bullkittening while we were shooting. It was a good way to get into that kind of competitive shooting, as we would see the results that night (we were almost always the last group to shoot), and while we all were solid shooters, it was interesting to see that there were others that were beating us pretty soundly. The draw-back was that I wasn't observing the higher level shooters, and we were essentially just continuing to compete against each other (we were all marksmanship instructors and shot together frequently at work).

USPSA was a different animal. I was lucky in that I had two GMs that got me into USPSA, and guided my early competition experience. At first I wasn't really all that worried about how I placed (by their guidance), and just worried about the mechanics of the stages and the marksmanship challenges, putting my effort into making and executing a plan and having a back-up plan. I was able to directly interact with and learn from guys in the top 1% of the sport consistently in my early USPSA shooting.

Had the experience been reversed I might have enjoyed IDPA more initially, but I think that I still would have come over to USPSA as my preferred pistol competition.
Yeah, there can be some stage-lawyering, but knowing the rules along with good stage setups and descriptions go a long way in reducing that. I most enjoy the freedom to shoot a stage however I want as long as it isn't prohibited by the rules and stage description.

Whatever you get into, go with friends and shoot together. Let the people in charge know that you're new. A good club will match you up with some good shooters/good RO to guide and help you.
Don't be afraid of asking questions, most shooters will want to help, and are happy to talk about their setups and why.

If you go into USPSA, I recommend shooting Limited. It reduces the support gear needed, as you can shoot fully filled standard capacity magazines you will generally only need 2 mags on the belt and one in your gun, and you can put the holster and mags pretty much wherever you want them. Production is ok, but you generally need 4 mags on the belt plus the one in your gun for longer stages or if you fumble a reload/drop a mag or if a mag kittens the bed on you.
Limited Division is what makes USPSA the game I enjoy most.

[Failure2Stop]

This posted while I was typing:


I don't doubt that it's variable from club to club, but I personally have seen near zero dbaggery at the USPSA matches I have shot. My impression is that it gets talked about a lot more than actually happens.

and I agree.

[Failure2Stop]

Whatever you start with, remember this:

If you aren't shooting or "on deck" (the next shooter), you should be down-range as soon as the range is called "clear" to help with target pasting (after scoring), target reset, and picking up brass. This rule applies to everyone, from the first-time middle-aged woman shooter to the GM with a setup that costs more than your car.

If you reload, don't snake all the kitten kittening brass. Most other competitors do too, and will generally have their cases marked for easy identification. They want those back. If the shooter doesn't reload he will generally let you have the brass for free, just ask first, and don't hog it all. When picking up brass, don't just pick up the brass you want, it all needs to be picked up.

Being the first shooter or last shooter on a stage sucks. Volunteer at least once a match to shoot a stage first. This does not apply to the last stage if you just want to leave before tear-down (see below).

Help with tear-down. Jetting out as soon as you finish your last stage is phenomenally D-Baggy, as it leaves the work on fewer people. 8-10 folks can tear down and put away a stage in a few minutes, 1-2 dudes doing the same takes a lot longer.

For the first few matches worry about getting your hits, executing a simple plan, being efficient in movement, and stopping at precise points to most efficiently transition between targets (USPSA), or following the stage narrative (IDPA). Read the stage description, do the walk-through, and COUNT TARGETS. Remember: simple plan at first.

[Shellback]

If you go into USPSA, I recommend shooting Limited. It reduces the support gear needed, as you can shoot fully filled standard capacity magazines you will generally only need 2 mags on the belt and one in your gun, and you can put the holster and mags pretty much wherever you want them. Production is ok, but you generally need 4 mags on the belt plus the one in your gun for longer stages or if you fumble a reload/drop a mag or if a mag kittens the bed on you.
Limited Division is what makes USPSA the game I enjoy most.

I'm most interested in shooting with my everyday carry gear so I think that's probably my best option as well, AIWB holster, so I believe IDPA would be out anyway. Thanks for the insight and your 2nd post as well, good advice.

[Mr_White]

I'm most interested in shooting with my everyday carry gear so I think that's probably my best option as well, AIWB holster, so I believe IDPA would be out anyway. Thanks for the insight and your 2nd post as well, good advice.

That is all good advice from F2S.

If you want to shoot your carry gear, including an AIWB holster, you have exactly four options between USPSA and IDPA: In USPSA, you can shoot Open, Limited, or Limited-10. In IDPA, you can take a hike. :)

[Failure2Stop]

That is all good advice from F2S.

If you want to shoot your carry gear, including an AIWB holster, you have exactly four options between USPSA and IDPA: In USPSA, you can shoot Open, Limited, or Limited-10. In IDPA, you can take a hike. :)

I actually went to my last USPSA match with the intention to shoot it AIWB, but abandoned it since the range was recently the host of a shooter that suffered a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the leg during a previous competition and I didn't want to be "that guy". In retrospect it probably would have been fine, but I don't really carry AIWB anyway (primarily a rifle guy).

[Shellback]

That is all good advice from F2S.

If you want to shoot your carry gear, including an AIWB holster, you have exactly four options between USPSA and IDPA: In USPSA, you can shoot Open, Limited, or Limited-10. In IDPA, you can take a hike. :)
Guess that narrows down the options. ;)

[Jared]

Irish,

OAK and F2S are putting down some real solid advice for you, and I can't add much to it but to second it and encourage you to give a match a try. I think you'll really enjoy it.

[Jared]

I don't doubt that it's variable from club to club, but I personally have seen near zero dbaggery at the USPSA matches I have shot. My impression is that it gets talked about a lot more than actually happens.

I also agree wholeheartedly with this. I've shot at 5 different clubs now, and been squadded with M's and GM's at Major events. I've encountered exactly 1 DB at a club match, none at Majors. Never been around a range lawyer. I think this stuff gets blown out of proportion.

[jetfire]

The worst club culture I've ever encountered was at an IDPA club. The best club culture I've ever encountered was at a USPSA club that was located less than 25 miles from the bad IDPA club. There was almost no shooter crossover but for a few dudes.

[PPGMD]

...executing a simple plan...

Very important. And if you get your plan from an experienced shooter, just because they didn't shoot it using that plan, doesn't mean that the plan they gave you sucks. I typically give newbies much more conservative plans than what I might shoot. Because I don't know if you have the skills to shoot it without make up shots.

[Shellback]

Irish,

OAK and F2S are putting down some real solid advice for you, and I can't add much to it but to second it and encourage you to give a match a try. I think you'll really enjoy it.

I definitely will in about a month or so. I have a broken foot currently and the high was 115 today here in Vegas. Neither one make for much shooting fun. :)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I really don't care if I 'win'. I care if I maintain or improve my skill set. If you are a beginner and want to 'win' - then you can have a psychological conniption fit if it makes you happy. I'm not going to beat a couple of national champs who shoot in my match set. I did come in second after one (but that was because only two of us were shooting revolvers that day - haha! What a triumph).

So at my last match, my 1911 decides on one stage to throw me a nasty double feed. OH, I seez - Givens taught me how to deal with this. And I did - I knew the drill - I cleared it and finished the stage with a crappy - very crappy score. But so what, I felt that I had practiced a good skill to have.

Our local clubs are very supportive and the problem is folks lack the ego strength to start. You learn more from a screw up sometimes.

[PPGMD]

I definitely will in about a month or so. I have a broken foot currently and the high was 115 today here in Vegas. Neither one make for much shooting fun. :)

Just holster and then move with the crutches.

[benEzra]

Some random thoughts from this casual local-match shooter (and if some of these are already reality, awesome---clue me in):

Get the word out about Production and other divisions where you can shoot using your regular carry gear. Some shooters have the mistaken impression that IDPA is the only game in town when it comes to shooting your CCW, when in fact USPSA is arguably better in some ways (e.g. appendix carry).

Maybe have some shorter matches sometimes. I too have done the "stand around for hours and shoot for 2 minutes" thing.

Have some explicitly CCW-focused matches (or stages) from time to time.

There's probably no way to get a shooter's scores into their hands faster than the way it's done now, but it would be nice if there were a way. Is there a USPSA scoring smartphone app so that an individual shooter can enter her/his time and hit count, instead of waiting for the times and scores to post on the club website three days later?

Allowing "pocket guns" in some stages (or in some matches) would be fun. It'd be neat to run one's P32 or Tomcat on a stage here and there.

A Beginner or Mousegun division allowing .22LR?

[m91196]

I shoot at 5 clubs, 4 use electronic scoring for the match some let you use your practiscore app to see secured results during the match and all of them have the match results uploaded to the USPSA site by the end of the day or early evening.

[Pup town]

Some random thoughts from this casual local-match shooter (and if some of these are already reality, awesome---clue me in):

Get the word out about Production and other divisions where you can shoot using your regular carry gear. Some shooters have the mistaken impression that IDPA is the only game in town when it comes to shooting your CCW, when in fact USPSA is arguably better in some ways (e.g. appendix carry).

Maybe have some shorter matches sometimes. I too have done the "stand around for hours and shoot for 2 minutes" thing.

Have some explicitly CCW-focused matches (or stages) from time to time.

There's probably no way to get a shooter's scores into their hands faster than the way it's done now, but it would be nice if there were a way. Is there a USPSA scoring smartphone app so that an individual shooter can enter her/his time and hit count, instead of waiting for the times and scores to post on the club website three days later?

Allowing "pocket guns" in some stages (or in some matches) would be fun. It'd be neat to run one's P32 or Tomcat on a stage here and there.

A Beginner or Mousegun division allowing .22LR?

A couple of your suggestions (ccw-focused stages, pocket gun ie BUG stages or side matches) are straight out of the IDPA playbook. I think USPSA and IDPA fill different niches. I don't want to see USPSA become more like IDPA. Both do different things well. There's no need for them to try to be alike. (I also feel confident that those changes would go over like a lead balloon with the USPSA faithful.)

Shorter matchs - excellent idea. Downtime between stages is my principle complaint about USPSA. But how do you fix it? Steel only matches? Give shooter on deck a maximum of 1 minute to make ready after range has been called clear? I don't see an easy solution to this problem.

Re:range lawyering. I can't say if it's exaggerated but it definitely exists. Some guys see a sport in finding a loophole in the stage description. Oh well. I let them do their thing and not get involved in it. I think power tripping ROs are a bigger turnoff.

[RJ]

I just wanted to contribute a few thoughts.

I'm a new shooter, civilian type. I have one pistol, my S&W M&P. I guess maybe I am the target market for 'average CCW' holder. I try and get to the range once a month. I've fired 2,200 rounds or so at the range since last May.

I have never drawn a weapon, nor used a holster.

I heard about a "Basic Action Pistol" course for $20 on Saturday mornings at a local outdoor range from a web search. I emailed the instructor, and arranged to attend.

I brought my pistol, some ammo, a basic $25 Kydex Safariland holster, an Uncle Mike's rigger belt (don't laugh) and my eyes and ears.

I left my ego at home.

We got a two hour classroom overview of Safety, IDPA, USPSA, etc. as well as an introduction to how matches are scored.

We then spent about 1.5 hours in two squads of 7 running two stages. After each run, I received some coaching in a friendly manner on what I did wrong.

I learned not to break the 180, and to clearly demonstrate my finger was demonstrably off the trigger while moving. Sure, I had to stick my mags in my jeans back pocket, and my M&P was not the fanciest gun there.

I finished 7th out of 14. While I had some 2Alphas, my times were about 50% slower than the younger guys, because I was trying to take my time, as fast I could. My heart rate was up. It also seemed like my IQ dropped a 100 points when that dang beep went off.

I enjoyed the guys in my group and my instructors. Seemed like solid folks, like, professionals. Competent but casual. Like maybe LEOs, or senior NCOs. Good guys. They said the goal was to learn to shoot fast, and shoot accurately.

It was a heck of a lot more fun than shooting those same 50 rounds at the range. I had a blast and I'll be back.

Just my $0.02.

Rich in Tampa

[Timlugia]

I can't speak for other areas, but in my area (SF Bay) both sports need general exposures to the public first.
Most of my friends, even those gun owners never heard of either USPSA or IDPA before.

[GardoneVT]

At the risk of breaking some social taboos, I have to ask-should USPSA/IDPA be in the business of attracting CCW holders?

I ask ,as the role of USPSA going all the way back to Jeff Cooper's time was to serve as a practice vehicle for established shooters. The guy sticking a Taurus Curve into his jacket pocket when he's "going somewhere dangerous" isn't in that category . Using a program created to put committed shooters together as an outreach plan for the uninitiated would appear to be a step backward, like the Ferarri racing club trying to teach basic drivers safety.

Were I king, I'd start a ground up league marketed to the person who sees their guns as appliances to be left in a closet. Inspiring uncaring people to practice at all is a totally different goal then getting already motivated shooters to compete with each other.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

NO - As an educator, we try to bring light to those in the dark. At our matches, we get new folks who want to learn to use their guns and not be high end competitors.

My group includes a national revolver champ who consistently comes in just below Jerry M, the current National Match director and his 2nd in command ( a division winner, IIRC), Tiger team members and some other highly ranked shooters. They are absolute sweethearts to newbies who want to learn. The 2nd in command was incredibly supportive to a young boy just starting out.

Absolutely the wrong idea - at the local level - recruit, recruit, support, support! You don't have to be a Talmudic scholar to get started in praying to the Lord?

[ford.304]

Shorter matchs - excellent idea. Downtime between stages is my principle complaint about USPSA. But how do you fix it? Steel only matches? Give shooter on deck a maximum of 1 minute to make ready after range has been called clear? I don't see an easy solution to this problem.


The biggest change I've seen is starting groups as they arrive. You show up, you squad up with 5-6 people, you start shooting. You can have people come for shorter periods throughout the day instead of all sitting around waiting on the same guy. It *does* take more people who are able/willing to RO, though.

[olstyn]

It also seemed like my IQ dropped a 100 points when that dang beep went off.

That happens to EVERYBODY their first time...and the second...and third, etc, etc. I had that "plan disappears when the timer goes off" moment last week, even, and I've been shooting USPSA matches for several years now. It happens a lot less often than it used to for me, but it's still a very real possibility every single time.

Sounds like you had fun and learned things. Win/win. :)

[cclaxton]

At the risk of breaking some social taboos, I have to ask-should USPSA/IDPA be in the business of attracting CCW holders?

I ask ,as the role of USPSA going all the way back to Jeff Cooper's time was to serve as a practice vehicle for established shooters. The guy sticking a Taurus Curve into his jacket pocket when he's "going somewhere dangerous" isn't in that category . Using a program created to put committed shooters together as an outreach plan for the uninitiated would appear to be a step backward, like the Ferarri racing club trying to teach basic drivers safety.

Were I king, I'd start a ground up league marketed to the person who sees their guns as appliances to be left in a closet. Inspiring uncaring people to practice at all is a totally different goal then getting already motivated shooters to compete with each other.
I see new shooters come to IDPA and USPSA and I thank God they have come to learn how to compete. They quickly realize their safety skills, their shooting skills, their equipment reliability, and their mental discipline needs significant improvement. The primary reason why I volunteer to be a Match Dir and SO is to help people improve in all those areas. IDPA club matches are a great opportunity for them to get that feedback and pick up tips. I feel a lot better knowing that I am helping to make the CCW community safer and more skilled, while having some fun doing it.
Cody

[Peally]

Agreed. You're still going to have your established shooters show up at nationals and do their thing, but thank Jebus that your average shooter shows up at matches. Their equipment might be pretty scary, but it's the picture perfect time to show them what works and what doesn't, and how to be safe. When I get squadded with a new shooter or two at a club match I generally don't mind unless there's a ton of them, as it doesn't slow down the stages a whole lot and they're learning.

We were all a noob at some point. The only reason I started shooting competitively was to learn a little about handguns and safety while doing something fun; I couldn't have cared less about competitions. Since those poor-man's training sessions I've found an excellent hobby and have learned valuable life skills, with plenty of room to improve.

[Bob-C]

I recently entered USPSA from what you could call the CCW crowd. Looking around for several years, I could see no better opportunity to improve my gun handling skills and my overall shooting proficiency. It seems to me that participants can get out of USPSA shooting what they want. If they want to go all in as a driven competitor reaching for the best level they can achieve, they can do that. If they want to be around some of their shooting buddies for some friendly competition, they can do that. If they want to build more confidence in their skills for potential practical application, they can do that. Or any blend of the above.

[IronArcher]

I'm about 1/2 way reading through this thread, and wanted to comment as a shooter new to practical sports.

The things that deter me personally from being a USPSA shooter:

1) 30+ round stages. At some point it starts to seem rediculous. Seeing video of someone shooting, reloading 4-5 times and he still runs out of ammo? To the person new to the sport, that just seems like a caricature of the sport.

2) Comments like "this is where the big boys play". OK Biff, I get it. You are more of a man because you shoot this game vs. another game. Absolutely arrogant, and doesn't sound like someone I want to shoot with. If the other game is so easy, why haven't you won the Nationals, or World championships every year?

3) Yes, the scoring seems pretty weird. Note: I say "seems" as a shooter new to the sport. Time+ penalties is much easier to picture. Just changing the penalties for misses could shift the focus from accuracy to speed or vise versa. Does your score change depending on who is shooting that day?

4) Airgunning a course. Couldn't a lot of the time spent Airgunning a stage be spent, I don't know, shooting?!?!

5) Excessive running on some stages. While I'm not that old and fat that I can't do it, it's not why I want to shoot practical sports. The "track and field with a gun" at times starts to look a bit silly.

Things that don't deter me:

1) The rules. In this day and age of everyone looking for an edge, rules need to be complex enough to prevent gaming the system.
2) Race guns. I think they are awesome, I don't need to compete with them in production, so I don't mind. They do look a little silly, yet awesome at the same time

Things that are drawing me to USPSA

1) List of approved guns. This really simplifies things. Seems other orgs have a bit more confusion as to what really is legal unless you bring a rule book and a box to the gun store.
2) No concealment vest. I get it, but that itself has become gamed out of its original purpose.
3) less rigidly structured. Specifically where it comes to cover and target (order) choice. Honestly, I wouldn't mind something 1/2 way between IDPA and USPSA, but that's just me.

In short, as unbiased as I can be (I'll most likely shoot both major games) long stages just seem silly. Do we really need to carry around 4-5 mags+? Can we just start a belt feed weapon class? Don't act like your better than another game, they are all games. Spend more time shooting and less time running around the course with your fingers pointed like guns (pew pew). Thought this is where the big boys played? Those are the biggies. The scoring? Not a fan but I'm sure someone will tell me where I finished at the end of the day. The running, yeah, I came to shoot, but I get it. Dropping a 30+ round stage into 2 15 round stages will still let you get as many shots in.

What would get me to start shooting USPSA? Address the biggies listed, advertise more, and don't look at IDPA as competition...you guys sound like a bunch of ninnies fighting over which is better.

[PPGMD]

1) 30+ round stages. At some point it starts to seem rediculous. Seeing video of someone shooting, reloading 4-5 times and he still runs out of ammo? To the person new to the sport, that just seems like a caricature of the sport.

A well designed match will have a mix of stages from 32 round field courses, to 8-10 round short courses. Of course this is a local flavor thing, some clubs like to exclusively make field courses, while others might have a good mix. Personally I have 2 clubs to choose from, and the only I prefer to shoot is the one that has a good mix.

If the multiple magazines thing is a big issue, but shoot limited. With your average gun you can get through the stage with 3 magazines. Personally I am a fan of production's 10 round capacity as it differentiates production from limited.


3) Yes, the scoring seems pretty weird. Note: I say "seems" as a shooter new to the sport. Time+ penalties is much easier to picture. Just changing the penalties for misses could shift the focus from accuracy to speed or vise versa. Does your score change depending on who is shooting that day?

You score doesn't change, your hit factor (which is nothing more than points per second) is the same regardless of who is shooting. It is the positioning the changes.


4) Airgunning a course. Couldn't a lot of the time spent Airgunning a stage be spent, I don't know, shooting?!?!

Outside of the five minute walk (which IDPA has except worse as you got an extra five minutes of people range lawyering the stage), the only air gunning is done right before you shoot why they are resetting the stage. And every sport has their version of air gunning. In football during practice they will run all the routes over and over again so both the wide receiver and the QB know where to go/look.


5) Excessive running on some stages. While I'm not that old and fat that I can't do it, it's not why I want to shoot practical sports. The "track and field with a gun" at times starts to look a bit silly.

This is another local flavor thing. A good stage designer will fine a good mix of running and shooting across all the stages.

[perlslacker]

as someone who shoots uspsa and loves it, i agree that the "airgunning conga line" does look pretty ridiculous.

[PPGMD]

as someone who shoots uspsa and loves it, i agree that the "airgunning conga line" does look pretty ridiculous.

IDPA has the exact same conga line, it is just that they can't stick their hands out.

Heck I got yelled at once for counting shots while pointing at the target with a knife hand close to my chest.

[olstyn]

1) 30+ round stages. At some point it starts to seem rediculous. Seeing video of someone shooting, reloading 4-5 times and he still runs out of ammo? To the person new to the sport, that just seems like a caricature of the sport.

Obviously 30+ round stages are not representative of real-world encounters for most people, but as you've said, it's a sport. A well-designed 30-round stage is fun and challenging, and that's the point, not how many rounds it is. Honestly, the only reason anyone with 4+ mags on their belt runs out of ammo is extra shots or poorly planned reloads. I've used all of my mags a bunch of times, but ever since I went to 4 mags on the belt + the one in the gun, I've never run out.


2) Comments like "this is where the big boys play". OK Biff, I get it. You are more of a man because you shoot this game vs. another game. Absolutely arrogant, and doesn't sound like someone I want to shoot with. If the other game is so easy, why haven't you won the Nationals, or World championships every year?

No question, the posturing from both sides is pure silliness. Theoretically, we're all adults, but that doesn't mean we're all mature. Find a match near you, check it out, and if the people there suck, find a different one. I was lucky; the first place I went was full of awesome people who helped me learn.


3) Yes, the scoring seems pretty weird. Note: I say "seems" as a shooter new to the sport.

Don't worry about it too much at first. You're not going to be in contention to win right away anyway, and after a few matches, especially if you discuss it with the experienced folks there, it'll start to make sense.


5) Excessive running on some stages. While I'm not that old and fat that I can't do it, it's not why I want to shoot practical sports. The "track and field with a gun" at times starts to look a bit silly.

As PPGMD said, that's club-specific, and of course, your definition of "excessive" may be different from mine, and from PPGMD's and from everybody else's. Again, if a club isn't offering what you want, check out another club. If you're in a major metro area, there should be several options.


2) Race guns. I think they are awesome, I don't need to compete with them in production, so I don't mind. They do look a little silly, yet awesome at the same time

Agreed, 100%. I LOVE watching the Open division guys shoot. The speed is insane, the noise is deafening, and the fireballs coming out of the comps are sweet to watch. I would totally shoot open if I could afford it. :)

[DocSabo40]

... and don't look at IDPA as competition...you guys sound like a bunch of ninnies fighting over which is better.

I'm not sure this is realistic. It seems to me that USPSA and IDPA are in direct competition for people's time.
Don't get me wrong, the bickering bugs me as much as anyone, but from a business standpoint they certainly are competing for customers.

[IronArcher]

I'm not sure this is realistic. It seems to me that USPSA and IDPA are in direct competition for people's time.
Don't get me wrong, the bickering bugs me as much as anyone, but from a business standpoint they certainly are competing for customers.

Perhaps. The way I see it, at least for my area, there aren't so many matches that I would often have to chose between the two.
More likely, I'll be shooting both just to get more matches in.
USPSA may have to wait just a little longer while I gear up. 3 more mags, and pouches for them is another couple hundred bucks. While trivial to some, adding it to the rest of the stuff to buy (Holster, belt, mag holders, mags etc.) it starts adding up...especially when added to ammo costs, range, and entry fees.

Having read the whole thread now, I will say that the bickering is absolutely the most off putting to someone looking to get into the sport. While there may be times that they compete with each other, I would guess many, if not most, are in my boat. Looking for more than a match a month means shooting both IDPA and USPSA.
Knowing that, every time one insults the other, they are vicariously insulting their own shooters. WHY would they ever do that?!?! Do you ( not you Doc ) think that by insulting the other game, their shooters will flock to your side?!?!

[olstyn]

USPSA may have to wait just a little longer while I gear up. 3 more mags, and pouches for them is another couple hundred bucks. While trivial to some, adding it to the rest of the stuff to buy (Holster, belt, mag holders, mags etc.) it starts adding up...especially when added to ammo costs, range, and entry fees.

Buy the mags before the pouches. My first year shooting USPSA was spent shooting production with 4 mags and 2 mag pouches. 1 mag into the gun, 2 in pouches, and the last reload on any given stage was from my back pocket. Having only 4 mags meant that I had to make an occasional awkward choice about where to reload, and reloading from a back pocket is not exactly fast vs from a pouch, but I had a lot of fun anyway. Of course, the first thing I did in preparation for the next year was to buy 2 more mags and 2 more pouches, but at that point, the hooks were well into me and I wanted to be more competitive. :)

[ranger]

Biggest issue for me back when I was running a USPSA club in south GA - shooters were either immediately put off by the $$$ associated with Limited or Open rigs; or - maybe worse - immediately dove into Limited and Open by spending lots of $$$ then performing poorly with said hi $$$ rig. I used to beg new shooters to just shoot what they have or make a modest investment such as a G34 (can get most of your money back later) and just shoot Production (often to no avail). I started USPSA in 1986 and I think the best thing they ever did was offer Production Class. As far as high round count stages, my experience was shooters wanted to shoot and enjoyed the high round count. Otherwise; a lot of travel, money, and standing around for a few seconds of competition. Ultimately, I moved to Sporting Clays to scratch my competition shooting itch - certainly no cheaper - but was more family friendly event. I shoot a local IDPA match now at my home club but I do not travel the USPSA circuit because I just cannot justify the time and expense for "a few seconds worth of shooting". I am personally better served by using that time and money practicing. I am losing the value of the competition pressure though.

[IronArcher]

My intent in USPSA is to shoot Production.
Kinda wish the mag limit wasn't 10 rounds though. I could shoot a 32 shot stage today with the 2 mags I have.

[olstyn]

My intent in USPSA is to shoot Production.
Kinda wish the mag limit wasn't 10 rounds though. I could shoot a 32 shot stage today with the 2 mags I have.

Sure, and I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't shoot Production, just that if you wanted to get started right away, you could shoot Limited until you've got enough mags for Production.

[Jim Watson]

I wish that more clubs would offer a formal Introduction to Action Shooting course like the WAC class mentioned above. I could make a case for requiring it for match entry, I have seen too many casual shooters and CCWs jumping into the deep end and not have an enjoyable experience. Not to mention me keeping a nervous eye on them for out and out safety hazards. Had a guy DQed from an IDPA shoot last month because he was completely at sea not knowing what to do next until he safety faulted.

[Luke]

I wish they let AIWB in production :(

[Lomshek]

My intent in USPSA is to shoot Production.
Kinda wish the mag limit wasn't 10 rounds though. I could shoot a 32 shot stage today with the 2 mags I have.


I wish they let AIWB in production :(

Just load your mags to capacity and shoot Limited. It's what I do with my M&P 9 FS. I've done it with my DA/SA Ruger P94 too.

Lots of folks forget that you don't HAVE to have a 2011 .40 S&W with 140mm mags to enter Limited. I'm not in danger of winning Limited Nationals but for local matches it works fine and the winning difference is not the 2011 trigger, accuracy or capacity; it's still the shooter.

If I had a tricked out Limited gun I'd move up a few places in results but wining the match isn't my main goal. I'm there to have fun with the gear I have and improve my shooting skill by doing more involved scenarios than I will set up alone. As many "D's" as I shoot just moving up to major PF won't help.

[Luke]

I do shoot limited. Classifier score would be better shooting production though :)

[IronArcher]

double

[IronArcher]

Just load your mags to capacity and shoot Limited. It's what I do with my M&P 9 FS. I've done it with my DA/SA Ruger P94 too.

Lots of folks forget that you don't HAVE to have a 2011 .40 S&W with 140mm mags to enter Limited. I'm not in danger of winning Limited Nationals but for local matches it works fine and the winning difference is not the 2011 trigger, accuracy or capacity; it's still the shooter.

If I had a tricked out Limited gun I'd move up a few places in results but wining the match isn't my main goal. I'm there to have fun with the gear I have and improve my shooting skill by doing more involved scenarios than I will set up alone. As many "D's" as I shoot just moving up to major PF won't help.

You know, I suppose that just might work. As mentioned, it's not like I'm going to win/place in Production anyway just yet.
I'll be ordering some toys in the morning!

[Lomshek]

I do shoot limited. Classifier score would be better shooting production though :)

Not as different as you'd think as long as you're shooting alphas. Mag capacity isn't an issue in most classifiers (mandatory reloads) and we're not talking a big difference like an Open gun.

[olstyn]

Not as different as you'd think as long as you're shooting alphas. Mag capacity isn't an issue in most classifiers (mandatory reloads) and we're not talking a big difference like an Open gun.

What, you mean you don't think having a big-ass funnel of a magwell subtracts multiple seconds from your times? ;)

[Sal Picante]

as someone who shoots uspsa and loves it, i agree that the "airgunning conga line" does look pretty ridiculous.

The "retard ballet", eh?

[IronArcher]

OK, kinda talked me into it, kinda planned on doing it eventually. You guys gave me the kick in the @$$ I needed.
By this time next week, I'll have 5 mags, 4 pouches, and the rest.

Looking at some other threads, there seems to be room for improvement in the rules.
Specifically, why does a bone stock "approved" production gun need to be put in the size box....especially when that gun won't fit in its stock configuration? There are others that could be cleaned up as well.

[Luke]

Congrats man!! I hope you have a great time! Uspsa is very addictive so good luck lol

[IronArcher]

Thanx!

Luckily Bed Stoeger had the right holster for my gun (apparently very rare to find the right holster) in stock!
That, mags, and mag holders on the way so I can get to proper dry fire practice!

[Sal Picante]

OK, kinda talked me into it, kinda planned on doing it eventually. You guys gave me the kick in the @$$ I needed.
By this time next week, I'll have 5 mags, 4 pouches, and the rest.

Looking at some other threads, there seems to be room for improvement in the rules.
Specifically, why does a bone stock "approved" production gun need to be put in the size box....especially when that gun won't fit in its stock configuration? There are others that could be cleaned up as well.

Not all the rules are perfect - some are hold-overs from a while back...

Think of them as "blue laws"

[jetfire]

Not all the rules are perfect - some are hold-overs from a while back...

Think of them as "blue laws"

Which creates an interesting side question to me: what would a shooting sport with a perfect rule-set look like? I bet you couldn't get 2 shooters to agree.

[45dotACP]

Which creates an interesting side question to me: what would a shooting sport with a perfect rule-set look like? I bet you couldn't get 2 shooters to agree.
I disag...waitaminute....

:D

[olstyn]

Which creates an interesting side question to me: what would a shooting sport with a perfect rule-set look like? I bet you couldn't get 2 shooters to agree.

Well, you're only asking for something that everybody agrees is fair, safe, and fun; that shouldn't be too difficult, right? :rolleyes: