Winchester W Train & Defend Reduced Recoil

[cnelson]

Anyone know of, use, test he newer Winchester W Train & Defend Reduced Recoil 147 Grain (W9MMD W9MMT)? It's "reduced load" so it's not the same thing as anything they have. Is the bullet the same as what is used elsewhere? Anyone know of any tests or reviews of it?

Trying to replace my older ammo, but having a hard time finding stuff, plus not being LEO makes it harder to find all or most of the recommended list in the first place. (9mm) I liked shooting RA9T from my Kahr CW9 (as well as y others).

I've read somewhere on here that Winchester PDX1 Defender 147gr (S9MMPDB1) is the same as RA9B but for civilians. Is it really the same thing?(not that I am finding this in stock, but at least places stock it)

Again, I'd love to get me RA9T or the bonded version RA9B. Even looking for Federal 147g HST or even Remington Golden Saber 147g.

[Tamara]

I just got three boxes each of the 9mm Train & Defend. I'm planning on shooting some for groups/over the chrono on Sunday. Don't have any Jell-o handy. Curious about the bullet myself; I don't have anything but their press kit to go by, but the bullet sure looks similar to the RA9B.

[LSP972]

The last time I went by the range to score some test-fire ammunition for the lab, Sammy had to dig to find me some 9mm ball (we need ball for our purposes. JHP will work, but its a real PITA plugging the cavity so they don't expand in the water tank). Most of what he had in the training ammo pile was Winchester JHP. I'm, like… huh???

It seems that Winchester has been pushing this stuff, instead of ball, to LE agencies on the premise that its a JHP bullet and therefore "more applicable" to duty ammo, training records, liability, etc. Hmmm… Our guys haven't bought into that; they just took what was available. They go through a LOT of ammunition; the current shortage situation coupled with the incredible hassle of the bureaucracy involved with spending a bunch of tax dollars means they're not too picky about training ammo as long as the stuff works.

What's even more interesting is that this stuff is the same agency price as good old generic ball. I scored a box just for curiousity's sake. The box is white with black printing, typical of non-commercial boxes. It is marked:

XSUB9MML 9MM Luger 147gr. JHP Law Enforcement Only

The real puzzler is the head stamp… WCC 95. Usually with Winchester the number indicates the year of manufacture.

The bullet looks ALMOST like an SXT; but not quite. But 19 year old ammunition being delivered in 2014? Double hmmmm… on a hunch, I compared it to some genuine 1990 vintage Winchester QSM (the "original" 147gr load) we have in our lab stash, thinking that if the bunter marks looked the same the mystery would be solved. Nope.

I went back to the range; most of the stuff they are working their way through is in a different box, obviously more recent manufacture. We got side-tracked and I neglected to get a box of the newer stuff.

So I'm wondering if this Train & Defend stuff is the same? This whole concept is puzzling. It kinda defeats their marketing game in regards to their premium bullet offerings, eh?

Making myself a note to go back out there and look more closely at what they have…


..

[Tamara]

So I'm wondering if this Train & Defend stuff is the same?

It's a modern, bonded projectile.

Think about it for a second, though: There's a whole big upsurge in new CCW permit holders. Many are women. Most probably are not going to become gun nerds. Solution? Sell the ammo equivalent of Garanimals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garanimals). You pick the "T"-for-train and "D"-for-defend cartridges in the caliber marked on your gun, and you have ballistically-matched, low-recoil, ammo that all shoots with the same recoil impulse to the same point of aim. (I'm kinda surprised they don't sell it in 70 round packages with 50 FMJ and 20 JHP.)

I'll note that the ad campaign seems to be heavily weighted to be welcoming to the novice woman shooter.

[Drang]

I think I've seen American Eagle ammo of the same sort of concept, but with a total of 70 or more rounds in a box.

[LSP972]

Solution? Sell the ammo equivalent of Garanimals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garanimals). You pick the "T"-for-train and "D"-for-defend cartridges in the caliber marked on your gun, and you have ballistically-matched, low-recoil, ammo that all shoots with the same recoil impulse to the same point of aim. (I'm kinda surprised they don't sell it in 70 round packages with 50 FMJ and 20 JHP.)



Makes sense. Because one thing is for certain; the one aspect of the game more confusing than guns (as in, which one for me?), to the nimrods, is the ammunition.

What will they think of next???

ETA: I just looked it up. What an ingenious concept. Agreed, it seems to be targeted at women. Interesting… and timely.

.

[ST911]

I think I've seen American Eagle ammo of the same sort of concept, but with a total of 70 or more rounds in a box.

2 50rd boxes of AE, plus 20rds of HydraShok.

[CCT125US]

I'm partial to Win Nato and GDHP +P. Same POI at 25 and 50 yds. for me.

[Rich]

I`m always looking for a low recoil load in 38spl for my M642.

It would be cool if the 130 B standard pressure pass the BG & 4Layer gel test. ( I already use ranger 130+P for my HKS/speed strip)

[jetfire]

It's a modern, bonded projectile.

Think about it for a second, though: There's a whole big upsurge in new CCW permit holders. Many are women. Most probably are not going to become gun nerds. Solution? Sell the ammo equivalent of Garanimals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garanimals). You pick the "T"-for-train and "D"-for-defend cartridges in the caliber marked on your gun, and you have ballistically-matched, low-recoil, ammo that all shoots with the same recoil impulse to the same point of aim. (I'm kinda surprised they don't sell it in 70 round packages with 50 FMJ and 20 JHP.)

I'll note that the ad campaign seems to be heavily weighted to be welcoming to the novice woman shooter.

I can't believe you dropped a Garanimals reference. My hat is off to you, ma'am.

[JAD]

I can't believe I thought it was spelled 'Grranimals' (get it? Grr?) for the past 39 years.

[littlejerry]

I can't believe you dropped a Garanimals reference. My hat is off to you, ma'am.

I'd like to see Tam run a Thursday night trivia game.

And I hate trivia.

[Tamara]

Although it's a statistically insignificant sample, of the five loads I ran across the chrono out of the EAA Pavona T&E gun, the Winchester 147gr "Defend" was the second most consistent, behind the Hornady Critical Duty 135gr +P and ahead of (to my surprise) the Nosler 124gr Match ammo.

[LSP972]

Although it's a statistically insignificant sample, of the five loads I ran across the chrono out of the EAA Pavona T&E gun, the Winchester 147gr "Defend" was the second most consistent...

How fast?

Did you shoot any jello?

.

[Tamara]

No jell-o.

10 shot string at 8 feet:
Lo: 932
Hi: 967
Av: 946
ES: 35.07
SD: 12.04

[LSP972]

Well, that's pretty much standard 147 velocities (at least for sub-sonic loadings).

One wonders where they get the "reduced recoil" claim from. Not that sub-sonic 147s are rhino-rollers, but still…

.

[Tamara]

One wonders where they get the "reduced recoil" claim from.

The marketing department, I guess. ;)

[Chuck Haggard]

Well, it might be reduced from say a .40...................

I bought some o' this stuff in .38 special, recoil and POA/POI is exactly the same as 130gr WWB FMJFP so that is a plus, especially since that's one of the loads that hits close to the sights from my 642s.

I am REALLY curious as to whether this expands in a heavy clothing event. If not then a dude is back to pretty much wadcutters as a good idea.

[Tamara]

If the 9mm bullet is indeed the same bonded 147gr JHP as the RA9B/Q4364, it should be okay. I'd be interested to see some good testing on it.

[Chuck Haggard]

If the 9mm bullet is indeed the same bonded 147gr JHP as the RA9B/Q4364, it should be okay. I'd be interested to see some good testing on it.

All of the bullets I have seen in this line look to be the same as the PDX1 stuff, which is all renamed Winchester Bonded. In 147gr that would make it a very good bullet according to the testing results I have seen.

I suspect the .38 would be too slow to mushroom in anything other than the bare gel testing since the +p version often fails to expand in heavy clothing tests.

[Up1911Fan]

I picked up a few hundred rounds of the Train load as I carry 147gr Ranger Bonded, haven't had a chance to shoot any yet, hoping for a similar POI/recoil impulse as my carry ammo.

[Rich]

All of the bullets I have seen in this line look to be the same as the PDX1 stuff, which is all renamed Winchester Bonded. In 147gr that would make it a very good bullet according to the testing results I have seen.

I suspect the .38 would be too slow to mushroom in anything other than the bare gel testing since the +p version often fails to expand in heavy clothing tests.

Same here. But I still pray they used a softer lead bullet.

[Rich]

If the 9mm bullet is indeed the same bonded 147gr JHP as the RA9B/Q4364, it should be okay. I'd be interested to see some good testing on it.

I wish you compared the 147W to the ranger/PDX1 147B.

And see if it truly has less recoil. I think the PDX1 147B is at 1000 fps. I have a few boxes I go check. Yes its 1000FPS energy 326 if that means anything.

[Tamara]

I don't have any PDX1 lying around. (At least, I don't think I do. I usually buy the po-po ammo in the 50-rd boxes because it's a lot cheaper per round than the commercial 20-rd boxes of "Personal Protection" ammo.)

[j.d.allen]

Hate to revive a necrothread but....

Anyone else catch this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwsVe1fxXLE&list=PLgNSGOEQko_M90AMdRCDMgd-w4Yozc27i&index=29

[CanineCombatives]

interesting...