APD - Personally Owned Weapons

[jlw]

We will allow any personally owned gun from a reputable brand, in 9-40-45acp, as long as we have an armorer to support the make & model. That may change soon since the US DOJ has cracked down on neighboring Albuquerque PD, Bernalillo Co Sheriff, and the State Police for allowing "non-standard and personally owned high-power weapons" to be carried on duty.



I'd really like more details on this.

[JDM]

I'd really like more details on this.

This is a good start:

http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/spl/documents/apd_findings_4-10-14.pdf

[SamuelBLong]

DOJ has been investigating all NM LE agencies for excessive use of force over the last year because of our large number of OIS - 37 at APD since 2010. And a few more since the report was released.

DOJ said in their report that allowing individual officers to use personally owned weapons essentially becoming something of a "status symbol" and "this fondness of powerful weaponry illustrates the aggressive culture.”

Since the report there has been massive public pressure on APD, and to a lesser extent BCSO to massively restrain what officers are able to do. We've had protests that shut down access to one major hospital and access to the downtown area. Some of that is justified as there were a few questionable shoots, but the public largely doesn't realize what is dealt with on a day to day basis in the city and county.

http://krqe.com/2014/03/30/sky-news-anti-apd-protest-video/

If you've seen breaking bad, yes, it really can be like that... To illustrate my point, and I hate to bring up a sore topic around here, but lets remember that Robin (Tom Jones's wife) was severely injured by a guy who ambushed officers with an AK, stole their squad car, and led multiple agencies on a active shooter chase all around the north end of the city.

As of last Thursday May 8, APD is no longer allowed to carry personally owned firearms for duty per the memo handed out by the chief. How that is going to work when it comes to patrol rifles, since they don't issue them and must be an individual purchase, is a mystery to me.


KRQE News Report on APD Personal Guns : http://krqe.com/2014/05/08/apd-no-longer-allowed-to-carry-personal-weapons/

Link to KRQE News DOJ Findings:http://krqe.com/2014/04/10/justice-dept-investigative-findings-on-apd/

[JDM]

The tangent about APD should be a separate thread. . .

[SamuelBLong]

The tangent about APD should be a separate thread. . .

Agreed. If I could, I would have split it off.

[JDM]

Working on it.

[LSP972]

DOJ said in their report that allowing individual officers to use personally owned weapons essentially becoming something of a "status symbol" and "this fondness of powerful weaponry illustrates the aggressive culture.”



Good grief.

Truly, we ARE doomed.

.

[ST911]

Page 37...


As mentioned above, APD’s training is focused so heavily on weaponry and force
scenarios that officers do not get essential tools to engage in effective de-escalation methods.
The training is an element of the culture of aggression. Once officers complete their training,
they are allowed to carry non-standard issued weapons that are approved by the range master.54
We were informed that many officers purchase expensive, high-powered guns as soon as they
are allowed, using their own money. Officers see the guns as status symbols. APD personnel we
interviewed indicated that this fondness for powerful weaponry illustrates the aggressive culture.

[abu fitna]

Page 37...

I have no personal knowledge regarding this study, but right off the bat this statement strikes me as exactly the kind of finding that you get when an under qualified or unqualified researcher is conducting interviews. The immediate focus on externalities of object, imbued with alleged cultural significance, is the kind of thing one can trot out when the harder questions of tactical choices, adversary intentions, and comparative case outcomes are dauntingly buried in a large pile of use of force reports filed over the years. Instead, a nice lunch with the kinds of staff (probably non-sworn clerical or barely qualifying desk drivers) that would call a personally owned, departmentally approved service pistol "high powered" is much easier on the researcher. And as a bonus these lunches can with only a little prompting probably result in other findings regarding attitude, behavior, and political outlook once office gossip is run through the PC mill and ground ever so fine...

I am always a critic of excessive force. But the way this material reads is not a study about mechanisms to address inappropriate OIS, but rather a way to justify pre-minted conclusions.

I lived through this once in a particular English speaking country out on the Asian rim, where sheer count of OIS incidents led to much handwringing, and eventually to pressure that basically left the descendants of convicts on all sides to fend for themselves (with the law abiding citizens having of course been disarmed through other bouts of handwringing). This was the same period where transition from the revolver (long after most other international police services had gone to the bottom feeder) was hotly debated as an issue of too much "firepower".

But shallow minds blame the thing they focus on first. And the shape, size and colour of the weapon in one's holster is easy to see; whereas the real issues of changing offender demographics, offender behaviors, officer experience, or officer deployments are much harder.

[jlw]

It is a massive stretch to link authorizing personally owned weapons to excessive force.

---

I could see a municipality agreeing to go to allowing only issued weapons as part of a consent decree to soften some other blow much like an college football team withdrawing from a bowl game to head off the NCAA, but the feds have no legal authority to simply order a local or state agency to adopt such a policy.

[JHC]

This DOJ is a nightmare. But hopefully, can be fixed.

[LSP552]

I can't speak to specific APD shootings, wasn't there, didn't do the investigations

But I'm F-ing proud to have had a small part in cultivating an aggressive warrior mentality at my old place. It's all about controlled aggression, dialed up or down as needed. Who would have guessed that's a bad thing.

Equating personally owned duty weapons as inviting excessive force is just stupid.

Sad to say, but the world has moved on.

Ken

[EM_]

I worked at an agency where I promoted a warrior mindset. I was promoted, twice, and gave almost 14 years to that place. We were successful in OIS encounters with no judgements against officers.

Our "chief" invited the DOJ to investigate. When they (yes the cop hunting DOJ) found no wrong doings he hired a private group to investigate. Shockingly they found the problems he claimed where there. After getting paid that outfit (comprised of a former DOJ atty and a ACLU atty) folded up shop.

It's not only going on with APD this trend has been happening for a while.

The DOJ is the problem, with the IACP being close behind.

[LittleLebowski]

If you've seen breaking bad, yes, it really can be like that... To illustrate my point, and I hate to bring up a sore topic around here, but lets remember that Robin (Tom Jones's wife) was severely injured by a guy who ambushed officers with an AK, stole their squad car, and led multiple agencies on a active shooter chase all around the north end of the city.


Are you saying that the guy that shot Robin was associated with producing meth or some other sort of drug?

[SamuelBLong]

Are you saying that the guy that shot Robin was associated with producing meth or some other sort of drug?

No, only that it gets crazy around here in our own unique way. We aren't living in the quaint little town everybody seems to think we are.

[JeffJ]

What, exactly, is a "high powered personal weapon"? Are APD officers running around with .44 mags and .50 Deagles? If so, I question their training a little, but still think it's awesome.

[NickA]

No, only that it gets crazy around here in our own unique way. We aren't living in the quaint little town everybody seems to think we are.

Funny that you say that: I was just listening to an interview with an MMA fighter who trains at Jacksons. He commented how crazy it was that you could probably score meth in the parking lot, or go inside and spar with the likes of Jon Jones.

[LittleLebowski]

Funny that you say that: I was just listening to an interview with an MMA fighter who trains at Jacksons. He commented how crazy it was that you could probably score meth in the parking lot, or go inside and spar with the likes of Jon Jones.

Tim Kennedy?

[NickA]

Tim Kennedy?

Yeah, on Joe Rogan's podcast. Literally heard that part of it on the way to work today.

[KevinB]

I think they are referring to 1911s in .45.

Which I think is a colossal error in judgement on behalf of the officers, but to each their own.

I ran an in-service a few weeks ago and all of the 1911 shooters failed... :rolleyes:

[LittleLebowski]

Yeah, on Joe Rogan's podcast. Literally heard that part of it on the way to work today.

Yeah, I listened to it at work. Good stuff.

[LittleLebowski]

Which I think is a colossal error in judgement on behalf of the officers, but to each their own.

I ran an in-service a few weeks ago and all of the 1911 shooters failed... :rolleyes:

Failed at time/accuracy or weapons malfunctions?

[KevinB]

Failed at time/accuracy or weapons malfunctions?

Both (this is my shocked face...)

[TCinVA]

Page 37...

That may have been one of the stupidest things I've ever read. I got a little woozy and had to sit down for a minute...

[KevinB]

It's a horrible stretch at best.

I would agree that great deal of OIS's they refer to appear to be bad shoots - however I view that as an issue with the Command levels of the departments in question.

The NM DPS Shooting Qualifications have no decision making criteria -- everything is a Shoot, and its horrible easy to pass (if you don't shoot 100% there is probably an issue).
The answer is training and education and perhaps better selection of Police in those departments - not making some asinine assumption about Personal Weapons.

[JRB]

As another resident of ABQ and having close friends in APD, one of whom competes quite successfully on APD's own shooting team, I can't help but see some writing on the wall with that sort of baseless edict.

Their issue isn't with the weapons themselves, it's the fact they're personally owned. To the perspective of folks from DC and the like, the idea of sworn officers owning the weapons they carry is offensive, because ultimately, most of those bureaucrats disagree philosophically with the idea of private arms ownership. They equate gun ownership with 'gun culture' and want to discourage it in every way they can, even if they're discouraging it among the Police in their hometown. In most cases, ESPECIALLY if it's their home town.
Like many of the anti-gun sorts of folks that tend to 'protest' downtown and crash a city council meeting by being an unruly mob, these sorts of people can't help but let their ignorance equate having an interest in weapons ownership & proficiency to having a desire to shoot someone with that same weapon.

We've seen it time and again with the straw-man arguments and all the other emotional, wildly inaccurate fallacies they use, and how they emotionally project their own lack of personal responsibility & self control with arguments like 'I don't want my neighbor to own guns, because he might shoot me if he doesn't like my cat' etc.
They disagree with some or all of the OIS's. They learn that APD officers might own their own guns, so obviously they bought that big, powerful gun because they want to shoot someone with it. QED - to those sorts of folks, anyway.

I can't help but conclude this is an underhanded but very direct attack at gun ownership itself, by the same sort of ignorance and (as already mentioned by Abu Fitna) profound lack of true qualifications to make a fair assessment.

To a large extent, though, there's a very real resistance to anyone with bona fide knowledge of firearms and their use among the 'cultured' elite. Nowhere is that more prevalent than politics, and the DOJ is a political entity if it's anything at all. So it's quite predictable that they'd have someone unqualified making these assessments, because by our standards, anyone qualified to make such assessments would be a 'gun nut' in their eyes, and they'd feel any assessment given by a 'gun nut' would be akin to letting the inmates run the asylum.

A sad state of affairs, no matter how you slice it.

[jlw]

Somebody should look said author in the eye and ask, "So, if the shootings were all with agency owned and issued guns, would that make the shootings more justified?"

[TCinVA]

Somebody should look said author in the eye and ask, "So, if the shootings were all with agency owned and issued guns, would that make the shootings more justified?"

All you'd get in response is the person repeating their inane statement and the strong smell of smoke in the room.

[Dagga Boy]

"The answer is training and education and perhaps better selection of Police in those departments - not making some asinine assumption about Personal Weapons."

Burn the witch...........stop with your heretical speech. No sense bringing all that logic combined with a need for leadership into the conversation.

[jlw]

The answer is training and education and perhaps better selection of Police in those departments - not making some asinine assumption about Personal Weapons.

Unfortunately, the applicant pool is a population by and large uneducated on its own Constitution. Thankfully, we are small enough to be choosy. At my prior agency, when I was an FTO, I spent as much time being a civics teacher as I did teaching procedure and skills.

I'd really hate to be hiring at the numbers of some of the big cities as I am rejecting applications at about a 75:1 rate here lately.




All you'd get in response is the person repeating their inane statement and the strong smell of smoke in the room.


I'm so happy to be working for a Sheriff instead of a council who got elected by the garden club and folks who ran because they were mad over leaf and limb pickup.

[pablo]

Somebody should look said author in the eye and ask, "So, if the shootings were all with agency owned and issued guns, would that make the shootings more justified?"

Then it would show an ingrained culture of excessive force in which the department's leadership was not only aware of, but encouraged. Or some such non sense.

The DOJ "investigation" is there to get people riled up. If (or when) the DOJ tries to place APD under consent decree, a key part of the DOJ's case against APD is demonstrating a lack of public faith or confidence in APD to be able to correct it's problems. Hence the constant references to a lack of public faith.

[UNM1136]

Which I think is a colossal error in judgement on behalf of the officers, but to each their own.

I ran an in-service a few weeks ago and all of the 1911 shooters failed...


I admit I got my first and only 1911 to be one of the cool kids. I got the Warrior when Hilton and LAV were endorsing them. I would have done Hilton's Code 3 package when he offered it if I could have afforded it. I got a good one. I have shot it dirty, sandy, wet, hot, and cold and have had 2 magazine related malfunctions, both with CMC 10 round powermags when the feed lips started to spread. Using 8 round powermags, and 8 and 10 round Tripps, and have had no headaches. I intentionally wait to clean it for about 5-600 rounds, and am a dedicated brake cleaner and lube type gun cleaner. I have worn out a set of laser grips between dry fire, training, and duty. I have only recommended a 1911 to one shooter, after making him qualify with his issue glock. He no longer wants the 1911, and is changing over to a Sig. The rest of my recommendations are for M&Ps, and Glocks.




The NM DPS Shooting Qualifications have no decision making criteria -- everything is a Shoot, and its horrible easy to pass (if you don't shoot 100% there is probably an issue).



I agree with you in principle, but I spend a lot of time providing remedial training shooters who have been cops for over 20 years, who find it a struggle to get to minimum passing scores of 80%. I embarrassed myself at one of Todd's classes, as a consistent high 90s shooter for almost 15 years. I borrowed a lot of what Todd taught me to help bring the shooters along, but annually we have the exact same problems with the exact same shooters. It is a mindset problem.

The new qual course is much worse....So much so that we are getting all of our 2014 quals done in the next two weeks to put off using the new qual as long as possible, hoping someone straightens it out before the 2015 cycle. Someone in our Chain decreed that our change over date is 7/1/14, to coincide with the fiscal year, rather than the deadline DPS gave us.

pat

[jnc36rcpd]

Jeesh UNM1136, I thought we were the only agency that had to time training days with the intent of getting everyone through the Q course. In 2013, we did our qualifications in the spring. After that ordeal, everyone dreaded qualifying in the fall. I actually heard the suggestion that we slightly modify the Q course (distance or # of shots) so we could run an unofficial Q course without worrying about officers failing to qualify. I posited that I didn't think that would withstand scrutiny.

I am hopeful that thinks will change with a new target and, more importantly, new leadership.

[UNM1136]

Jeesh UNM1136, I thought we were the only agency that had to time training days with the intent of getting everyone through the Q course. In 2013, we did our qualifications in the spring. After that ordeal, everyone dreaded qualifying in the fall. I actually heard the suggestion that we slightly modify the Q course (distance or # of shots) so we could run an unofficial Q course without worrying about officers failing to qualify. I posited that I didn't think that would withstand scrutiny.

I am hopeful that thinks will change with a new target and, more importantly, new leadership.

The new course of fire is actually easier on the shooters, for the most part. I will have to look individually, but if I recall correctly, it adds one second to all strings of fire, and establishes a minimum passing score of 70%. I honestly cannot remember if the state passing score has always been 70%, we have been demanding 80% on all handgun courses of fire, and 90% on long guns for as long as I have been with the agency. The last time I did remedial for cadets in the State Academy I think the standard was 80%. There are some disturbing manipulation issues coming out of Santa Fe during the Firearms Instructor recertification/update training, now mandated every four years, also. We have two former APD SWAT/ROP guys and two younger coppers (if you consider 15 years on and 42 years old younger) doing firearms training, so we prefer the more stringent, higher standard. Don't get me wrong, our scheduling is to keep the higher standards, rather than let our lazier shooters get more time to do the same job. This new qual course may well remove the need to remediate many of my weaker shooters, but I have never seen lowering the standard to be a viable solution to poor shooters.

pat

[Chuck Haggard]

That sort of thing always pops up when standards get lowered. Even if new leadership brings things back up there is a ton of work to do to get things unkittened.

[jnc36rcpd]

Sadly, I do consider fifteen years on the job and forty-two years of age younger.

We require 80% for pistol and shotgun and 90% for rifles. We adopted a new target (ILSP-06) in 2010. This year we started using turning targets. That created a perfect storm in qualification. Most of the cops and instructors loathed the ILSP-06 and the turning targets freaked some shooters out.

We are taking some steps to step up our shooting. Our monthly ammunition allowance had been curtailed due to lack of ammunition. We're now considering quarterly shooting clinics to ensure coppers aren't just blasting rounds down range. We're also looking at new targets. Regardless of the attributes of the ILSP-06 (of which I find few), I suspect going to almost any other target will improve the confidence of the shooters.

[LSP972]

...the turning targets freaked some shooters out.

.

When we "opened" our new range in 1990, we finally had a turning target system. We carefully explained to each in-service group that the days of slipping in a few late shots after the whistle were done; any shots fired after the allotted time were lost, as the target "wouldn't be there". Few of the participants paid any attention that part of the briefing, and even less actually believed it. Until it happened.

The moans, wails, and gnashing of teeth which followed were... rhapsodic. Yeah, I know... its uncharitable to feel glee when your fellow troopers experience a hard truth.

But any LE instructor reading this knows EXACTLY how we felt...:D

.

[ST911]

When we "opened" our new range in 1990, we finally had a turning target system. We carefully explained to each in-service group that the days of slipping in a few late shots after the whistle were done; any shots fired after the allotted time were lost, as the target "wouldn't be there". Few of the participants paid any attention that part of the briefing, and even less actually believed it. Until it happened.

The moans, wails, and gnashing of teeth which followed were... rhapsodic. Yeah, I know... its uncharitable to feel glee when your fellow troopers experience a hard truth.

But any LE instructor reading this knows EXACTLY how we felt...:D

.

A nomad I once coached experienced physically illness, literally, in response to turning targets and enforced standards. Epic.

[jnc36rcpd]

Oddly enough, most of our officer shoot stages of fire with time to spare, regardless of whether we're using stationary or turning targets. After a disastrous first rotation in which about half the officers failed to qualify on the first attempt, I gave more extensive briefings on the turning target system. I mentioned how dangerous the turning targets were, that one had taken off an officer's arm and that another had charged up range and devoured two officers. The briefings seemed to calm the officers down and we had fewer issues in the next three rotations.

Has anyone else noted the irony of the DOJ criticizing APD authorizing 1911's when the AG protective detail packs Springfield Operators?

[DocGKR]

Yes.

FWIW, the ILSP-06 is one of the WORST targets in the history of LE.

There are substantially better ones.

[LSP972]

Has anyone else noted the irony of the DOJ criticizing APD authorizing 1911's when the AG protective detail packs Springfield Operators?

No irony, really… when you consider that most of the DOJ attorneys promulgating that BS can tell a 1911 from a flashlight two out of three times… on a good day.

.

[JBP55]

LA. POST requires 80% as a passing score for handgun qualification. The local LEA FTU requires 85% in order to pass. The overall average score exceeds 90% which is well above average.

[John Hearne]

the turning targets freaked some shooters out...

Several years ago, I had a "special" person who could not qualify. Work actually bought me a set of turning targets to insure objectivity in qualifications. The special person did not like the turning targets and was able to request than a firearms instructor from 150 miles away qualify him/her. I never signed off on that person's ability to qualify.

[KevinB]

NMDPS is not much better...

NM-DPS-4SQ is about the only decent one, if you use the upper thoracic box and the eye box for your required shots.

[DocGKR]

As we have discussed previously, for defensive shooting to save your life or the lives of others, there are very few spots on the body where immediate incapacitation can be achieved. A "C-zone" hit is not going to do it. For that matter most targets used in LE quals and sport shooting events are not going to be realistic representations of what must be hit to rapidly stop a dangerous aggressor.

The CNS IPSC "credit card" A-zone or 3x5 target is pretty much the only place that will cause immediate incapacitation. Other than that, the spinal column and high central chest vascular system are the next best targets.

Steve Fischer's old target is well done, similar to a FAST target and is among the best ones currently available:
http://www.letargets.com/images/mdfi.jpg
Hits to the rectangle and circle count; everything else is a miss worth zero points.

[jnc36rcpd]

Doc, I'm sure the majoritty of our instructos and trainees would agree with your characterization of the ILSP-06. I believe we're moving to a DHS Transtar target. While not my first choice, I think it is a step up from the ILSP-06 targets.

[John Hearne]

For actual hit zones, I like Jim Higginbotham's:
http://letargets.com/images/riposte-3.jpg

My only gripe with most targets is that they don't look like people. I think you should spend most of your time shooting targets with faces. The primary zone on this one is pretty unforgiving and the head shot zone is well done:
http://www.letargets.com/images/scso-08.jpg

[jlw]

I just bought a bunch of these:

http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=RGT-2

http://www.letargets.com/images/RGT-2.jpg

If the head part of the target were tapered to match the jawline, it would be even better.

[ST911]

There are several good targets out there, esp the above.

When a preferred choice isn't available, I have a set of plastic templates in my range bag in different sizes corresponding to popular target zones (8" circle, a-zone, 3x5 card, head boxes, etc). If faced with a bad target, I can adapt it or turn it over and draw what I need.

[TheTrevor]

I was favorably impressed with the VTAC targets after spending 3 days perforating them in a carbine class. Anatomically correct, and the target zones (particularly the head boxes) are readily tuned with tape or paint if you want to tighten up the acceptable target area.

http://www.vikingtactics.com/product-p/vtac-dstt-10.htm

I don't use them at public ranges here in CA, but I did order a stack of them on my own dime to use when shooting on private land.

[Shellback]

http://www.letargets.com/images/RGT-2.jpg

These types of targets are great for indoor scenarios with the wife and the SIRT gun around the house.