Duty Gun Breakdown

[NorthernHeat]

I have been talking to other guys at my dept about this topic and wanted to see what smarter minds thought;)

Are there any modifications/enhancements you do to your on duty pistol that you think are manditory, you greatly prefer, or you have just found you love to have on your on duty pistol?

I have been running a Speed Shooters Specialties Brass Magwell with 10-8 performance XTC basepads on my personally owned/ on duty carried M&P Pro 5'' and really like how it brings the recoil down (it was minimal to begin with).

I have also found that running a FO front sight while working during the day (mostly during the day) allows me to pickup the front site sooner.

I have talked to other officers who really enjoy magwells, specific sights, etc on their duty guns.

I know some/ most depts dont allow personallly owened on duty weapons to be carried but if you were allowed, what would you prefer it to have?

Be Safe

[Chuck Haggard]

Issued G17, but I have a Sherer grip plug installed, sandpapery grips, and Ameriglo sights on mine. I like fiber optic front sights for daytime use, but I have worked nights for most of my career, and even in the day building searches happen, so the orange front/tritium sights are my compromise for cop work.

[KeeFus]

M&P 45. I just changed the front sight to a shorter one and I had to get the Chiefs permission to do that (both were tritium). If I had my rathers Id add an Apex DCAEK. Nothing else for me.

And like you state, most departments wont let you carry anything but what is issued by them. If I could carry any personal weapon it would be either my G17 or my M&P 9. Both have night sights...M&P has had a DCAEK added and a KKM barrel...G17 has Heinie Straight 8's and a different guide rod and spring.

[psalms144.1]

We're issued Sig P229R DAKs - only authorized changes are grips, and those can only be changed by an armorer (sigh). Our personal weapons policy is more lenient, but precludes any modifications that are "competition specific," which includes but is not limited to MRD sights (another sigh).

My personal Glocks all get the following: Ameriglo sights (Proglo Front, Operator Yellow rears), trigger component polish, finger groove removal and trigger guard recontour, and a grip plug. I don't consider any of those to be "competition specific" so I think I'm fine. I lvoe the Ghost EVO connector, and it gives a 5.5# trigger pull on my Lyman trigger gauge when mated to a 6# striker spring, so I think that's OK as well.

The only other thing I'm looking at for my Gen4 G19 is a Jager recoil guide and 15# recoil spring, since our issued 1980s technology VERY subsonic 147 gr JHP just BARELY dribbles out of my G19 with the dual recoil spring set up - not very comforting...

[Serpico1985]

Y'all must be living in fantasy land being able to do whatever you want to your on duty guns. The only modification my dept allows is adding intertube for grip or grip tape, thats it.

I've never heard of having fiber optic sights on a duty gun. What do you do in low light or in conditions like shooting from a dark area (therefore fiber optic not helping) into a light area?

[MD7305]

I fall into the camp of those mandated to carry unmodified, issued weapons only, a Glock 22Gen4, NS, w/ TLR-1HD. I don't have an issue with the set up other than I've gotten so accustomed to my Ameriglo ProGlo sights on my off duty that I'd love to have one on my duty gun, some HDs would be cool too. I'd also like to have a Vickers slide stop. That's about it, who knows I might get a sign off on those two things?

Now if tomorrow I was told I could carry anything I wanted I would choose a Glock 34Gen4, Trijicon HD sights, and a Surefire x300U.

[Chuck Haggard]

While it is common for departments to not allow any modifications, it is also retarded as hell, especially when idiots cite "LIABILITY!!!!!!!!!!!!" as the reason why.

There is less liability in letting a guy install sights that he can actually see on his duty gun than in forcing him to carry what everybody else is carrying, when that means his accuracy suffers as a result.

[SamuelBLong]

We issue Gen 3 G22's and are switching to Gen4 17's.

We will allow any personally owned gun from a reputable brand, in 9-40-45acp, as long as we have an armorer to support the make & model. That may change soon since the US DOJ has cracked down on neighboring Albuquerque PD, Bernalillo Co Sheriff, and the State Police for allowing "non-standard and personally owned high-power weapons" to be carried on duty.

As far as enhancements for my gun - Trijicon HD Night Sights, Vickers Mag Release, Vickers Slide Lock, Vickers Mag Base Plate, Grip Plug, Grip Force Adapter or Glock Gen4 Beavertail Insert.

Surefire x300 / x300u. Broken too many TLR-1's.

I don't care for mag wells on the gun cause it really relegates it to duty holster carry only cause of the extra bulk. I use a JM custom AIWB for when I'm not wearing my batman belt.

As far as triggers, stock & slightly heavier is fine for work. Stock on the gen4 and 3.5/NY1 combo on gen3's.

Currently carrying a Gen4 G41... So no extra grip yet (although it could use some on the frame pads). My gen3 G34 also has a 360 stipple job. It took a while for our LT to warm up to that.

[KeeFus]

Y'all must be living in fantasy land being able to do whatever you want to your on duty guns. The only modification my dept allows is adding intertube for grip or grip tape, thats it.

I've never heard of having fiber optic sights on a duty gun. What do you do in low light or in conditions like shooting from a dark area (therefore fiber optic not helping) into a light area?

Im with you. I don't know any department in NC that allows for a lot of mods to the issued pistols. There are a handful of agencies that Ive heard of that will let officers carry a personal weapon but they have to meet similar requirements as a duty weapon. I had to get permission just to try a new night sight and I only got permission because I'm one of our armorers.

I would think that a modified weapon would be a sticking point in an OIS. I know it would in my area of central NC. It would seem that the squeeze would not be worth the juice.

[Gadfly]

Working for the Feds, we issue SIG 229 DAK in .40 and only allow Hogue grips as an option. The reason we require an armorer to change the grips? You know ham many frames are destroyed every year by people torqueing down grip screws instead of just dabbing a bit of blue lock tight on them? The answer is a lot…

You can personal purchase Glock 17 or 26, or a 229/226/239 in DA/SA. But only OEM factory parts, no trigger jobs or aftermarket finishes or aftermarket parts.

I was all for allowing modifications when I hired on. After doing the armorer duty for close to 10 years, you would be amazed how many people can kitten up a gun just changing grips. We have had two M4s go down from folks wanting to add a Magpul or Ergo grip, and one lost the safety spring detent, immobilizing the safety after a few “crunchy turns”. The other lost the whole safety spring and had no clue he had lost it. He brought me the gun when he noticed the safety just swung freely… Then folks want to add a single point sling receiver endplate, and of course lose the detent spring and thus end up losing the rear take down pin. Let’s not forget the “punisher skull” and “Hello Kitty” Glock slide cover plates I had to remove last year.

Yes, a few years of doing this job has shown me why departments ban most all modifications. The folks on this forum are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to knowing how to work on their own guns. Many, many officer would totally destroy a gun in their quest to make it “better”. And agencies have to gear things down for the lowest common denominator.

All that said, I carry a personal purchase Gen 4 17 with trijicon HD sights. I would love a Vickers mag release and slide stop, but alas, they are not authorized.

[NorthernHeat]

Y'all must be living in fantasy land being able to do whatever you want to your on duty guns. The only modification my dept allows is adding intertube for grip or grip tape, thats it.

I've never heard of having fiber optic sights on a duty gun. What do you do in low light or in conditions like shooting from a dark area (therefore fiber optic not helping) into a light area?

I found that because I carry a Surefire 300U that whenver I was in dark and would activate my light I would black the tritium out of my night sights so I would simply be seeing a black on black sight picture even with night sights. I realize though that if you are shooting into a lighted area, you will not be using your white light.

I started using this FO front sight (stock setup that came with the gun) and was going to switch it out quickly for a night sight front and black rear (as I have on all my other guns) but found that I was not running into the problem of shooting from a dark area into a lighted area where I was not able to move into the lighted area or I did find that when I would acquire my sight picture and the FO was not shinning, I would be able to use a black on black sight picture of the black rear sight and the metal outline/ FO holder of the front sight to get a good sight picture.

Its not perfect, but I dont think any one sight system is perfect.

It has worked well for me and I will continue to test it and see how it works, if I run into alot of problems with it I will switch it to my usual setup of black rear and night sight front...

.... it is also nice that we have a VERY LIBERAL duty gun policy:cool:

[taadski]

Our agency issues DA/SA Sigs in 9mm. The only changes I've made are sights (I carry a Heinie/Dawson night sight combo currently), SRT sear/SSL (my particular pistol didn't come with them) and grip stippling. I'd love to have a fiber optic setup on my duty gun, but I'm not willing to give up tritium on a work/carry gun, so until they figure out a fiber/tritium combo that doesn't suck, I'll continue to compromise in that regard.

My play/game/training guns are all virtually identical (226s) but with Dawson fibers.


t

[NorthernHeat]

I think modifications to on duty firearms is fine most of the time, and can allow the officer to shape and mold the handgun to each individual officer.

I can understand if you have trigger work done and then you AD/ND when you didnt mean to pull the trigger that would be a problem, but if you have grip stippling or a magwell or aftermarket sights, that doesnt mean that your use of force would have been any difference in a deadly force situation than if you had not had these items on your duty pistol IMHO.

[pablo]

Issued guns are 9mm DAK P226R's. Rubber Hogue grips and Streamlight or Surefire weapon mounted lights are the approved mods for department weapons, officers can add Trijicon or factory night sights to their personally guns. There used to be a much more liberal policy on modifying department and personally owned weapons, but too many knuckle heads screwed it up.

I carry my own gen 3 G17 with orange Trijicon HD's and a G26 as a bug/off duty.

[LSP972]

That may change soon since the US DOJ has cracked down on neighboring Albuquerque PD, Bernalillo Co Sheriff, and the State Police for allowing "non-standard and personally owned high-power weapons" to be carried on duty.



Wait... what??? You're saying that the federal government is telling those mentioned agencies what they can and cannot use in the course of their state-mandated duties?

There has got to be more to this story.

.

[jlw]

I will answer from a different perspective in that for my agency I am the one that handles approvals for firearms.

From my experience, the personnel that want to personalize their guns are typically purchasing their own firearms. The one exception to that would be those that carry issued 1911s, and they will usually get whatever grip panels they want.

I've never had anyone ask to swap the sights on their agency pistol. I suppose I would let them if they asked under the provision that they returned the pistol with the original sights if they leave the agency.

Decal grips and the like are fun, but I reserve the right to make fun of those that put those awful slip on rubber pieces...

Anything mechanical must be pre-approved. I don't approve "crutches". In other words, if you are an 82 shooter, don't come ask to swap to a minus connector in your Glock. The standard connector isn't the reason for scoring 82s.

By all that is holy, if you touch a soldering iron to the frame of an issued pistol, not only will I fire you, I will prosecute you for it as well. That isn't your gun; it belongs to the tax payer, and it is proof that you are too stupid to work here.

Likewise, don't bring a personally owned pistol to me for a approval with a mutilated frame. This is one of the very rare instances where I trot out "Because I am the Chief, and I say so."

If you want to purchase a WML, I'm all for that and will go to the equipment room and get a holster for you that will accommodate your WML; however, if you fail to discuss this with anyone, and you go buy some odd WML for which we don't already have a holster, it isn't my problem to go on a scavenger hunt for you. You should have asked first. I certainly won't feel the need to be helpful when you do things like shoot snakes on the courthouse square.

[KevinB]

My Chief runs a MRDS on his G22, so my DeltaPoint on my M&P CORE is cool...

Policy is any requested mod's get approved by the armorers -- aftermarket trigger parts etc not authorized.
Liberal personal handgun policy in 9, 40 and .45 but M&P 9FS is standard.

[LSP552]

At my old place, the Glock 22 and 17 are currently issued. Modifications to issued weapons have always been prohibited. The only real exceptions have been the addition of extended slide stops. LSP still maintains a very liberal personally owned duty weapon list.

For me, my carry Glocks (34/17/19) are all set up the same. They have the factory "-" connector, standard trigger spring, Vickers mag catch, plug, factory extended slide stop lever and Ameriglo Operator (green/yellow) night sights.

I like my SIGs with the SRT, normal length trigger, E2 grips and factory night sights.

Ken

[FotoTomas]

My agency issues the 229r DAK in 9mm. No modifications allowed. Off duty the issue weapons are left at work and anything goes for for personal defense. I try to carry a personal duplicate of my duty DAK for training familiarity and liability. I keep it stock as well. When I retire soon I will be going back to my favorite Glocks. Many of my fellow officers carry a motley assortment of hardware based on previous employment or simple ignorance. One fellow trades a SIG pro in .40 at a loss for a Bersa in .45. He wanted a "good" gun.

[Chipster]

My department issues the Gen 4 Glock 17 & Glock 26. We have a policy that states all firearms carried by the officer (on his person or in his car) must be approved by the firearms instructor and the Chief of Police. So far I am the only one that has modified a department gun. I took off the factory Glock night sights (with the Glock rear sight tool) and put them on my G26 as it comes with the standard sights. I then put Heinie "ledge" night sights on as well as a grip plug, Vickers magazine release, and Vickers slide stop. I have played around with various magazine exgtensions on the range but have yet to find one I am comfortable with on duty yet. Everyone else is comfortable with what we issue. One officer has gotten approval to carry his old issued Glock 21 but he has yet to do so.

For what its worth our department is only 20 full time officers so it is fairly easy to keep track of what's being done to duty weapons.

[KevH]

My PD has a very broad policy. We issue S&W M&P 40's and allow most S&W, Glock, H&K, Sig, Beretta and Springfield Armory guns. You have a choice of 9mm, 40 S&W or 45 ACP. Our policy allows modification so long as its approved by dept armorers. We're pretty lenient and have a lot of aftermarket barrels and triggers (Ghost, Apex, etc) in service. We also have a lot of polymer grips modified including guns done by Bowie, Boresight and Robar.

If you attend a 10 hour "transition course" you can carry a 1911 so long as it has a few modern enhancements in place. We have mainly Wilson Combat, Ed Brown and Nighthawks running around.

I've carried a few different guns in my career. From 2008 to 2013 I carried 1911's (a SA Pro Operator then a Jardine Colt).

I decided late last year that I was done with the 1911 and was going back to Glocks in 9mm.

I now opt to carry a Gen3 G17 with a Wilson Combat barrel, Sevigny sights, Vickers mag catch and "Dot" connector.

At the beginning of 2014 I was the only one of 160 cops carrying a 9mm. I took some crap from the other firearms guys initially. I'm part of our firearms team so people seem to notice what I'm carrying. Since then a few guys have shot my gun and have switched to the G17 as well (although theirs are stock Gen4 guns). I predict that as time progresses more will follow my lead.

My honest opinion (although contrary to some on this site) is that a stock pre-2008 Gen3 Glock 9mm or latest batch Glock Gen4 9mm make the best duty guns. All you really need to do is put on a good set of sights. Most of the other major brand 9mm's (especially guns made in the 1990's) are good to go as well.

[Andrew E]

Where I used to work, it was G22C with factory night sights and a WML (Streamlight M3 or TLR-1 LED, issued--I had the M3 but no say in the matter) and no modifications allowed, aside from nonpermanent grip enhancements. Couple guys had those Hogue sleeves, several installed grip plugs, and at least one guy had Talon-type skateboard tape grips on his.

I tried the Hogue once at range and swore off ever trying anything else again...until I took a look at the purpose-made tape kit on a SWAT guy's pistol.
Wound up leaving the agency before I had a chance to try it, but ever since I've debated acquiring one for my personal G19.

[Beat Trash]

We issue the M&P9 or the M&P9c for those in plain cloths assignments that want the smaller gun. Any and all modifications must be approved and done by the range staff. The only thing they will let the end user do is to replace the grip inserts. I had them replace the factory night sights with a set of the Ameripro with the orange front sight post (SW-447). These really help my middle aged eyes see the front sight. Other than replacing the sights at the officer's cost, that's about the extent of the modifications permitted.

A WML is optional (at the officer's cost for light and Safarliand holster). There is no restriction on the type of WML, so long as the combo fits inside of the Safariland holster.

[HCM]

Working for the Feds, we issue SIG 229 DAK in .40 and only allow Hogue grips as an option. The reason we require an armorer to change the grips? You know ham many frames are destroyed every year by people torqueing down grip screws instead of just dabbing a bit of blue lock tight on them? The answer is a lot…


We're not the only agency which has had this issue with grip screws and P-229 frames. SIG lost a couple of large LE Agency contracts due to an excessive number of guns being deadlined because of frames with stripped out grip screw holes and is the reason E2 grips don't use grip screws.

[psalms144.1]

We're not the only agency which has had this issue with grip screws and P-229 frames. SIG lost a couple of large LE Agency contracts due to an excessive number of guns being deadlined because of frames with stripped out grip screw holes and is the reason E2 grips don't use grip screws.Not only do I ROUTINELY see agents in my FO carrying their issued Sigs with rubber bands or electrical tape around the grips because of multiple missing grip screws, but we're having a KITTEN of a time getting any grip screws as replacement from Sig. Not sure what about those screws makes them (a) so easy to back out and (b) so hard to find as replacements, but it's a fact of life for us...

[Haraise]

Great thread, very timely. Trying to set up duty gun regs for where I'm working, it's good to see some feedback by the end users and what problems have come up, what was liked and what would be good to change. The ten hour 1911 course is a pretty good idea, hadn't thought of that.

[KevinB]

I would suggest the 1911 course be 20, or better 40 hours -- mainly as they are a maintenance pig. Unless you have a dedicated armorer team the user needs to be able to detail strip for cleaning and drying...

I used to be big on 1911/BHP for SWAT applications - but now I just think its overly foolhardy.

[Haraise]

I would suggest the 1911 course be 20, or better 40 hours -- mainly as they are a maintenance pig. Unless you have a dedicated armorer team the user needs to be able to detail strip for cleaning and drying...

I used to be big on 1911/BHP for SWAT applications - but now I just think its overly foolhardy.

Is there a reason for 20-40 hours, or are you just trying to discourage people? I was planning on just mandating an armorer course, given that we don't have one (small setup). The one that immediately came to mind would be Hilton Yam's.

[KevinB]

Bit of both.

I love 1911's - but would never carry (or authorize them for) one for LE role. They are these days an enthusiast pistol, as they needs to be maintained. Look at HRT, the FBI have some of the best 1911 guys in the world - and everyone carries Glocks...

The problem I have with 1911's is most new guns are quite tight compared to the 1911A1's of GI usage (the ones that worked all the time) dirty and dusty conditions are their enemy - like what happens in duty holster - or on the ground if you get in a scrap.
- the internals love to rust - so any weather they are exposed to - the guns needs detailed cleaning (and cops are lazy).

Secondly I fail to see what they do that a Glock or M&P cannot do better cheaper with more rounds.

I have a LAV 1911, and have had Novak (Kurt Wickman) P-35's -- but times have evolved, less effort on romancing the SA guns could be focused to more time for other activities.

[Haraise]

Bit of both.

I love 1911's - but would never carry (or authorize them for) one for LE role. They are these days an enthusiast pistol, as they needs to be maintained. Look at HRT, the FBI have some of the best 1911 guys in the world - and everyone carries Glocks...

The problem I have with 1911's is most new guns are quite tight compared to the 1911A1's of GI usage (the ones that worked all the time) dirty and dusty conditions are their enemy - like what happens in duty holster - or on the ground if you get in a scrap.
- the internals love to rust - so any weather they are exposed to - the guns needs detailed cleaning (and cops are lazy).

Secondly I fail to see what they do that a Glock or M&P cannot do better cheaper with more rounds.

I have a LAV 1911, and have had Novak (Kurt Wickman) P-35's -- but times have evolved, less effort on romancing the SA guns could be focused to more time for other activities.

Kept to PM, to avoid getting into this subject of what platform is no good, what platform is good, etc. It's a good thread and I don't want to devolve to a standard gunforum stereotype.

[GJM]

Not only do I ROUTINELY see agents in my FO carrying their issued Sigs with rubber bands or electrical tape around the grips because of multiple missing grip screws, but we're having a KITTEN of a time getting any grip screws as replacement from Sig. Not sure what about those screws makes them (a) so easy to back out and (b) so hard to find as replacements, but it's a fact of life for us...

Is the Sig screw issue primarily a 229 issue (seems like the 229 screws are itty bitty compared to 226/228 screws? What is best practice for tightening the 229 screws?

[KevH]

Secondly I fail to see what they do that a Glock or M&P cannot do better cheaper with more rounds.



Bingo!

We have dedicated armorers for the 1911 platform (I'm one of them). To call it a major pain in the butt to take care of 40 or so very different 1911's of varying quality is an understatement.

From an armorer perspective I wish everyone carried the same platform (ie Glocks only, M&P's only) since that would make maintenance and training easiest.

What finally did it for me after five years of carrying the 1911 was removing the emotional attachment and looking at what simply made sense for me. With a Glock I get a cheaper, lighter, easier to maintain gun that holds more rounds and still has a fantastic trigger. Carrying a 1911 as a duty gun in 2014 is an emotional decision rather than a logical one.

[KevH]

With regard to Sig screws...

Best practice is to use clear nail polish (or a similar lightweight threadlocker) and don't over torque them. This isn't a new problem, Sig screws have always been a pain.

[jlw]

I'm currently running a series of pistol classes for our guys. Today was the fist time in seven classes that everyone was shooting the same caliber. It sure made the logistics easier.

[LSP972]

Is the Sig screw issue primarily a 229 issue (seems like the 229 screws are itty bitty compared to 226/228 screws? What is best practice for tightening the 229 screws?

As KevH stated, this has been an issue since the early days of the P226.

Thread locker (after carefully degreasing the threads on both screws and pistol frame) is the answer. But we NEVER told our guys to do that, because sure as hell's hot some of them would have used the permanent type thread locker, and... well, you know.

So one of my guys brought his bow string wax to the range one day, we tried it, and it worked over a several-month period. Not as good as Loc-Tite, but better than nothing.

If I had a classic Sig today, I'd use blue Loc-Tite.

.

[JodyH]

If I had a Sig these days it'd be a Pro or a E2 grip to avoid screws all together.

[Dagga Boy]

As KevH stated, this has been an issue since the early days of the P226.

Thread locker (after carefully degreasing the threads on both screws and pistol frame) is the answer. But we NEVER told our guys to do that, because sure as hell's hot some of them would have used the permanent type thread locker, and... well, you know.

So one of my guys brought his bow string wax to the range one day, we tried it, and it worked over a several-month period. Not as good as Loc-Tite, but better than nothing.

If I had a classic Sig today, I'd use blue Loc-Tite.

.

We did an annual armorer tear down on our guys Sigs. The armorers would loc-tite the screws and the officers were told not to remove them. Missing screws was an epidemic and it was one part I ordered in very large quantities from Sig. TJ's Custom Gunworks was in our city at the time and we also had good luck with his screws.

[LSP972]

We did an annual armorer tear down on our guys Sigs. .

With guys scattered all over the state, that was a bit problematic. We did see everybody twice a year, but there wasn't time (nor did we have the staff) to conduct training/quals AND do a complete eval on each trooper's weapons.

.

[LSP552]

As KevH stated, this has been an issue since the early days of the P226.

Thread locker (after carefully degreasing the threads on both screws and pistol frame) is the answer. But we NEVER told our guys to do that, because sure as hell's hot some of them would have used the permanent type thread locker, and... well, you know.

So one of my guys brought his bow string wax to the range one day, we tried it, and it worked over a several-month period. Not as good as Loc-Tite, but better than nothing.

If I had a classic Sig today, I'd use blue Loc-Tite.

.

E2 grips solve the grip screw problem, but don't leave much in the way of options if you don't like the feel. Personally, I love the E2s on my my 226 and 228.

Ken

[LSP972]

E2 grips solve the grip screw problem, but don't leave much in the way of options if you don't like the feel. Personally, I love the E2s on my my 226 and 228.

Ken

We had a like-new P226 with those E2 grips come through the lab a few weeks back. It also had the SRT; I was somewhat impressed. So far, I have managed to resist going retro, despite yours and Dave's best efforts.

.

[David Armstrong]

I've never really seen much need or reason to modify a duty gun. I can see putting night sights on if it doesn't already have them but after that it seems sort of questionable to me. If one can't shoot the standard sidearm at a reasonable level the problem is rarely the sidearm, barring some physical issues.

[Dagga Boy]

With guys scattered all over the state, that was a bit problematic. We did see everybody twice a year, but there wasn't time (nor did we have the staff) to conduct training/quals AND do a complete eval on each trooper's weapons.

.

We had to fight hard for it, and it was one of the things that went by the wayside when they started cutting the range time and quals, but I do attribute it to why we had very good luck with the SIG P-220's over the long haul. We couldn't fix SIG sending crap guns right from the factory which is why we went to HK and Glock, but from the 80's through the late 90's we got very good service from properly maintained pistols.

[jlw]

I've never really seen much need or reason to modify a duty gun. I can see putting night sights on if it doesn't already have them but after that it seems sort of questionable to me. If one can't shoot the standard sidearm at a reasonable level the problem is rarely the sidearm, barring some physical issues.

I agree. That was the line of thinking behind my "I don't approve crutches" in a previous post.

I should have also included that when it comes to approvals, I don't let personnel "chase guns" hoping for miracles.

[psalms144.1]

Is the Sig screw issue primarily a 229 issue (seems like the 229 screws are itty bitty compared to 226/228 screws? What is best practice for tightening the 229 screws?It's most prevalent with the P229s (though our old P228s had the same issue). The P239s seem to do much better... All the grip screws on my pistol are blue loctited on, though the clear nail polish trick would be just as good, IMHO.

[psalms144.1]

E2 grips solve the grip screw problem, but don't leave much in the way of options if you don't like the feel. Personally, I love the E2s on my my 226 and 228.

KenIf for some strange reason my agency reverted to its bad-old days of only authorizing issued weapons on duty, I'd swap my P229's grips for E2 grips in a heartbeat; mostly because I prefer the way they "fit" my hand, but also because the grip screw issue is just a royal pain in the kitten.

[JAD]

1911 folks sometimes put o-rings under the grip screws to keep them from walking. Does that work with SIGs?

[JB326]

We are issued Glock 22's but can carry any Glock 9mm or 40 cal. So I carry a G34... All of my duty/ carry/ competition guns wear Ameriglo Pro I-Dot sights (as bright as FO's in daylight, good tritium for night), extended controls, and a ".25 trigger job". I also tent to grind the finger grooves off of my Glocks.

[KevH]

1911 folks sometimes put o-rings under the grip screws to keep them from walking. Does that work with SIGs?

No, the screw isn't long enough.

The best solution (from tinkering with Sigs at an armorer level for over ten years) is to use clear nail polish and don't over-torque the screws. I also keep a bunch of extra screws handy for when someone invariably loses one.

I think Loctite (even blue Loctite) is too strong and too thick. The nail polish is just easier to work with and does the job without leaving residue.

[Trooper224]

My agency does not allow personal weapons for on duty use, except in the BUG role. Issued weapons will NOT be modified in any way. When we carried the S&W 686 rubber grips were an authorized replacement for the target grips that never seemed to fit anyone, but turning that one screw neccesary for replacement had to be done by an armorer. Several years ago when we got rid of the Mini-14's and went to the Colt LE6920, a few of our guys installed aftermarket charging handles, etc. You would have thought the sky was falling. I wondered how those morons had forgotten who they worked for. Fortunately the issue weapons are good to go for the most part, so mods really aren't neccesary. On the flip side of that coin, our off duty policy is wide open. Anything can be carried and no qualification is required. However, I've always qualified with my off duty piece as I think it's wise to have at least one piece of paper from the agency acknowledging its presence.

[KenpoTex]

All things considered, my agency's policies are pretty decent...

We issue the G19 to uniformed personnel. Detectives may carry a personally owned G26 if they wish. Authorized modifications to the issued handgun are sights and non-permanent grip enhancements (tape, slip-on, etc.). They also issue a WML and appropriate holster to all uniformed personnel.
Rifles are AR-15's of various makes (Rock River, SIG, etc.), they are issued with iron-sights and a sling. Authorized upgrades include lights, optics, rails, handgrips, stocks, etc...pretty much wide open as long as you don't mess with the internals and can return it in stock configuration. We are in the process of getting all patrol deputies issued a rifle.
Shotguns are 870's with side-saddles, slings, "big-dome" safeties, and Surefire forends.


We do authorize personal weapons...
Handguns are any full or mid-size Glock in 9, .40, or .45. If you carry anything other than a 9mm though, you have to provide your own ammo for training and quals. 1911's off an approved manufacturer list are also authorized. I carry my personal G19 since I like stippled grips. I also have Warrens and a GFA installed. I wish they'd expand the authorized handgun list to include M&P's, SIGS, H&K's, etc.

Rifles are any "high quality" AR-pattern gun in 5.56/.223. The only real restriction on those is they say "no kit guns" (yes, that's the language in the policy)..."kit gun" is defined as one built from parts from different manufacturers. (pet peeve...they don't want frankenguns, only "high quality," but they issue Rock River and say "not only no, but HELL NO!" to the guy who wants to carry a rifle comprised of a Colt lower and a Noveske Upper...:rolleyes: ). The other weird part is that they authorize personally owned NFA shotguns, but not NFA rifles.

Backup and Off duty guns must be personally owned. The sky is pretty much the limit on those as long as they're at least .32 caliber and hold five rounds or more. Ammo for training and quals with the BUG/off-duty must be provided by the deputy. The only annoying part about BUG/Off-duty is that you have to qualify with any gun you wish to carry off duty. I usually have to go to 2 qual sessions to get through mine (extra Glock, J-frame, Shield, full size M&P...)

[HCM]

1911 folks sometimes put o-rings under the grip screws to keep them from walking. Does that work with SIGs?

No, i think the 229 screws are too short.

[LSP972]

I think Loctite (even blue Loctite) is too strong and too thick. The nail polish is just easier to work with and does the job without leaving residue.

The nail polish DOES leave residue… you just cannot see it as easily.;)

Applying the Loc-Tite with a toothpick minimizes the problem of excess thread locker. I don't see how the nail polish could be "easier to work with".

FWIW, I bought a new Sig today. During the ritual new-gun-detail-strip-and-clean, I noted some gummy red stuff that bears a remarkable resemblance to Loc-Tite on the grip screw threads.

Just sayin'...:cool:

.

[LSP972]

No, i think the 229 screws are too short.

Definitely too short.

.

[KevH]

The nail polish DOES leave residue… you just cannot see it as easily.;)

Applying the Loc-Tite with a toothpick minimizes the problem of excess thread locker. I don't see how the nail polish could be "easier to work with".

FWIW, I bought a new Sig today. During the ritual new-gun-detail-strip-and-clean, I noted some gummy red stuff that bears a remarkable resemblance to Loc-Tite on the grip screw threads.

Just sayin'...:cool:

.

Clear nail polish cracks and flakes off. Loctite leaves gummy/waxy residue.

I hope they're not putting red Loctite on the grip screws! That would make things pretty darn interesting.

[LSP972]

Clear nail polish cracks and flakes off. Loctite leaves gummy/waxy residue.



Which is easily brushed off.

Not saying it was red LocTite; but it sure looked like it, and those puppies were IN there. Bubba with his hardware store screwdriver would definitely bugger up the slots. After choosing the proper size blade, I had to get the big Brownell's handle (as opposed to the shorter, "LE" version) to break them loose.

On the plus side, I put 250+ rounds through it this morning, and the screws haven't budged. I don't plan on carrying this pistol, which is the real test. But at least Sig is addressing the issue.

I was expecting the worst, but the gun ran fine, with various types of ball and hollow points, all factory ammunition. I only used the two supplied magazines, which apparently are the dreaded CheckMates (no "Made in Italy" on them). A bit stiff, but that is to be expected with new mags. Next outing we'll see how it does with my reloads. This is a P229-1 Scorpion in 9mm; if memory serves, wasn't the P229-1 version the one with a frame issue that Bruce Gray identified?

Some of you are no doubt thinking, "If you expected the worst, dummy, why did you buy it???"

Because I have been wanting another Sig for nostalgic reasons (haven't had one since I retired), and I like the way this Scorpion looks. Working with my two grandsons and their Beretta 92 pistols got me interested in DA/SA again, but I just cannot get over that Walther-type decocker/safety. Besides, they would be annoyed if I took their guns to the range without them...:D

It was definitely an impulse purchase.

.

[KevH]

Don't apologize for a new pistol purchase. If purchases were logical we'd all probably only have one or two of the same guns.

I have a complete hankering right now for an M9A1 done up by Wilson. I missed the chance of getting one of LTT's guns a few years back and I don't want to miss having a nicely customized Beretta 92G again. I'll likely never carry it, but what the heck.

More back on topic for the thread, with the choices available it's interesting to see what folks pick. Prior to the 1911 being available as an option and us issuing the M&P, we issued the S&W SW99 in 40 S&W which was complete junk (a whole different thread). As a result we had lots of Berettas, lots of H&K USP's and lots of Glocks.

Right now we have about 30% issued M&P's, 30% 1911's, 30% Glocks and 10% everything else. There is currently only 1 guy choosing to carry a Beretta 96F (an older INOX) and now not a single person carries a Springfield XD (we had a bunch of guys with XD 45's a few years back). If you had asked me a couple years ago I would have told you that DA/SA guns would all but completely disappear, but within the last two years there seems to be a few of our newer officers buying Sigs, which surprised me. I'm curious what the split will be in five years.

[LSP972]

This post probably belongs in the "Do you train with different types?" thread, but what the heck.

We used a lot of Sigs for many years; from 1989, issuing them from 1996, until the move to Glock in 2008. In 1994, I got permission to re-write part of the firearms procedure manual, essentially opening up the authorized duty gun list to just about any service-type 9mm bottom feeder. At that time, only the P226/P228 and 3rd generation S&W 59 series was authorized. There still weren't a whole lot of choices back then, but it opened the door for some Beretta 92s and Glocks, and even a couple of Rugers. As far as I know, that generous list is still in play for our guys (it was when I retired in 2007; I think I had the only HK at that time), but from what I have seen, almost everybody now is using the company gun (G22 or G17). A few bought their Sigs and still prefer to carry them, but its a rare uniformed trooper I see these days with anything but a Glock in their holster.

IOW, I got to handle/shoot a lot of different iron over those years. I've been pretty much all-HK LEM since 2004, with a smattering of Glock work here and there. That is why this morning was a real surprise to me… I fell right back into the DA/SA rhythm with ease. This Scorpion has a relatively atrocious DA pull, and my "splits" were a bit slower… but the accuracy was there. Which- again- leads me to question this almost maniacal pursuit of faster "split times" by some here. Dunno, perhaps I'm missing something or am looking at it from a different angle.

All I know is, I'm not gonna agonize over a few hundredths of a second. And I suspect I could cut that down if I had some competent work done to the Sig's DA pull.

Anyway… of interest to the thread topic is this fact: in this area (southeast Louisiana/Baton Rouge), there is one major municipal agency, the State Police, and three good-sized sheriff's offices. All issue the G22. Further, to my knowledge the only major agency in the state that doesn't is the possum cops (state Wildlife & Fisheries); they're hanging on to their all-stainless P220s. Talk about a brick… but they shoot nice.

.

[John Hearne]

know some/ most depts dont allow personallly owened on duty weapons to be carried but if you were allowed, what would you prefer it to have?

Today, my choice would be a Glock 41 with a grip reduction and some form of hi viz sights like Trijicon HD's or Ameriglos.

[Dos Cylindros]

Ultimately, if I had my choice I would choose the HK45 or P30 both in LEM, with a strong preference for the HK45. Current issue for my department is the M&P 40 which has proven to be an outstanding platform for my agency. I don't have much to complain about as far as departmetn issued guns go.

[Chuck Whitlock]

For about the last six months or so prior to my retirement, I was running a NY1/(-) combo in my issued G23, with the chief's OK. I was the agency armorer. I found I liked the combo for the protection from trigger-checking, and ran it in my personal Glocks. Our Fed guys had just gotten new G22 Gen4's, and I installed orange Trijicon HDs on the older gen3's that the local officers were carrying.......really couldn't justify replacing brand new night sights on the new guns. Very shortly after becoming an armorer, I replaced the serrated triggers on my G23 and G27 with smooth G22 triggers/bars. Issued gun was returned to stock trigger configuration prior to turning it in. All parts (except HDs) were OEM.

[Chuck Whitlock]

As an aside, agency policy was "no modification of issued weapons". As someone who was sent to armorer schools by agency, I felt the juice was worth the squeeze if it ever came up, and was prepared to argue the terms "modify" and "accessorize". Anything I did was able to be returned to original configuration, and all parts were kept.

For the 870Ps, I added Surefire forends, Mesa Tactical Urbino stocks w/ QD slingplates, and Mesa Tactical sidesaddles.

On the rifles, Fed guys got issued new RRA guns, which were basically identical to the DEA contract guns. Surefire quad rails, Hogue pistol grips, EO Tech 512s on Dominator2 bases, and Surefire Scout lights. The 3 local officers were left with left over Colt LE carbines.

Chief let me do the following: Magpul furniture, Hogue pistol grips, DD rear sights, EOTech 517s, and Magpul scout mounts and Scout lights for the Colts. Thorntail scout mounts for the RRAs. All rifles got Magpul aluminum trigger guards, MI slip-on QD sling mounts, XS same-plane rear apertures and standard dot tritium front sights, and Magpul FVGs, which the officers could choose to use or not. Single point QD bungee slings, which could go on either rifle or shotgun, and not leave any dangles if not used. Long guns were in dual Santa Cruz racks between the seats.

Monies were spent on this stuff at end-of-fiscal-year buying frenzy. If it ever came up, I was prepared to articulate every single item, and all could be removed and weapons could be returned to issued configuration.

I felt, and was backed up by the chief, that our guys were better equipped. He even told me that he'd caught flack from the district office over buying the lights and EOTechs for the older Colts, but he wanted all the officers to be as equal as possible.

[MRW]

Our issues guns are either Gen3 G22's or M&P 40's. The S&W's get issued to those to whom the G22 grip is too big. G27's and M&Pc's also get issued to admin and detectives. No modifications are allowed and no privately owned pistols are allowed. They work well as duty pistols and other than caliber, I wouldn't change them even if we could use personally purchased pistols. LEOs aren't always the most gun savvy shooters and the simplicity of our guns let's us concentrate on training at our ranges and get our officers up to speed quicker.

Off duty is wide open and no qualification is required. We do have the option though and I do shoot a qualification with my own G19 and Gen 4 G26.

I did work previously for an agency that allowed privately purchased guns. It was tightly controlled otherwise we would've ended up with some less than desirable choices.

[J_B]

We have been issues Sig P226/229 for years. Definately prior to me being hired on (12 years) and we moved to Glock.

Our range offered a Glock transition class for those of us who wanted to carry our own Glocks on duty before the change over.

I chose to carry my Gen4 19.

Since we are authorized some mods to our personal guns, I had already had my frame stippled, Trijicon HD (orange front) and Vickers baseplates on mags.

Nothing internal as I dont have any issues with the stock trigger.

As for newly issues Glocks, we are not allowed to mod them at all.

My wife opted for the issued Gen4 17 for duty carry in a Safariland 7T.

When she brought it home, I was able I do some dry firing and I can say I prefer my stippled 19 over her "stock" 17.

As for personal carry rifles or shotguns we can pretty much do what we want externally. No upgraded triggers, yet.

[NorthernHeat]

Do you carry the 19 in uniform or plain clothes?

I have a Gen 4 19 that I really like and I almost prefer its size over the full size frame. I am debating carrying it on duty or buying a 17/34 and working it over to carry on duty.

Also anybody have any comparisons between the Vickers and 10-8 Glock base pads/plates?

[J_B]

Do you carry the 19 in uniform or plain clothes?

I have a Gen 4 19 that I really like and I almost prefer its size over the full size frame. I am debating carrying it on duty or buying a 17/34 and working it over to carry on duty.

Also anybody have any comparisons between the Vickers and 10-8 Glock base pads/plates?

Uniformed in patrol. I prefer the 19 over the 17. Just like the feel of it.

[John Hearne]

I'm always amused when I hear how difficult it is to have multiple makes of guns approved for duty carry. Las Vegas Metro allows 9's, 40's, 45's, and I think 357 Sigs from any major manufacturer and has done so for years and they have a butt load of officers.

My agencies take is to allow most any pistol from one manufacturer. We can carry any classic Sig - P220, P225, P226, P228, P229, P239, P245, P230/232 - in 9mm, 40, or 45 (or 380). Standard trigger is DA/SA but DAO or DAK can be approved. They will issue you a pistol or you can carry your own. Modifications are tolerated with the caveat that the gun cannot be "functionally modified." This means that grips and sights are not an issue. Mild action work and SRT conversions have been deemed OK as well.

Long guns are similar. Shotguns must be 870's. Rifles must be direct impingement AR pattern. There is a list of allowed modifications and accessories for both weapons. After market AR triggers are permitted but must be non-adjustable.

[Chuck Haggard]

Agreed John.

If NYPD and LAPD can approve a list of personal duty weapons then the argument is BS from smaller agencies that it's too difficult.

The excuse of "liability" is complete and utter horse manure from people who know nothing about what real world reliability is.

[John Hearne]

My observation is that laziness and liability tend to go together - like incompetence and promotion likelihood.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

[KeeFus]

My observation is that laziness and liability tend to go together - like incompetence and promotion likelihood.



QFT!!!

[jnc36rcpd]

Once you get past liability, you then face the canard that "If we let him/her carry that gun, we'd have to let everyone carry whatever they want!".

When we first issued the SIG 226, we issued SIG 230's to detectives. (I wasn't part of that brilliant decision-making process.) As time went on, most detectives simply carried their uniform weapon. Several years ago, a female detective approached me to ask about being issued a 230 as she wanted a smaller gun. As I knew she had a Glock 27 as an off-duty gun, I suggested that she might carry that and told her I would check with chain of command.

Good grief! You would have thought I suggested we pour gasoline over ourselves and strike a match. "If we let her carry her Glock on duty, we'll have to let people carry whatever they want!" I was told in no uncertain terms. I countered that that was not actually the case. We would merely have to authorize other detectives to carry personally owned Glock 27's on duty. Well, that didn't fly. In any event, the detective soon transferred to a larger and better compensated department.

It was only a few years later that the same lieutenant who so opposed the detective carrying her Glock on duty was campaigning for use to allow a friend of his to carry...wait for it....a Glock 27 on duty.

We now provide the SIG 239 for detectives who want something smaller than the 226. The only one who opts for a 239 is a detective whose hands are so small that she was issued the weapon for uniform duty. Overall, we have a fairly tactical-minded group of D's.

[LtDave]

Do you carry the 19 in uniform or plain clothes?

I have a Gen 4 19 that I really like and I almost prefer its size over the full size frame. I am debating carrying it on duty or buying a 17/34 and working it over to carry on duty.

Also anybody have any comparisons between the Vickers and 10-8 Glock base pads/plates?

I have both the Vickers and the 10-8 baseplates. For carry, I prefer the 10-8 version as it isn't as wide as the Vickers. For gun games, I like the Vickers just fine. I really like the look of the new Vickers baseplates for the G42 coming real soon now.

[ST911]

I'm always amused when I hear how difficult it is to have multiple makes of guns approved for duty carry. Las Vegas Metro allows 9's, 40's, 45's, and I think 357 Sigs from any major manufacturer and has done so for years and they have a butt load of officers.


Agreed John.

If NYPD and LAPD can approve a list of personal duty weapons then the argument is BS from smaller agencies that it's too difficult.

The excuse of "liability" is complete and utter horse manure from people who know nothing about what real world reliability is.

How are we defining "small agency"?

[LSP552]

LSP at peak is maybe 1,200 troopers. They also allow a wide variety of weapons in .45, 9mm, .40 and .357 SIG. The only REAL argument against doing so is armorer and post shooting support. An agency easily addresses this by requiring the officer to stay qualified with the issue weapon in case a personal weapon needs to be replaced for repair or forensic analysis. It's also easy to purchase a couple examples of the most popular personally owned weapons for the same reasons.

I don't know it for a fact, but bet a lot of the resistance to personally owned duty weapons is due to firearms instructors looking for the path of least resistance.

Ken

[LSP972]

I don't know it for a fact, but bet a lot of the resistance to personally owned duty weapons is due to firearms instructors looking for the path of least resistance.

Ken

I DO know it for a fact… I can give you names.:D

That, and administrator resistance are the two main reasons you don't see more of this.

But to be honest, some of the "instructor resistance" has merit. Take the average denizen here on this forum; he/she would choose their duty pistol thoughtfully, then take the trouble to KNOW it. They would also care for it and make sure it was 100% at all times.

Now take your average cop who is given the latitude to carry a personally-owned pistol. Many of them would buy Brand X simply because somebody told them it was the schizz. Beyond that… well, use your imagination.

Somebody mentioned earlier in this discussion that the "liability" angle, often used to disallow this practice, was ludicrous. I beg to differ. When a budding police officer goes through his initial mandated weapon training, regardless of how complete or incomplete that may be, it becomes part of his training record; which is one of the first things looked at when the ice cream turns to kitten. The cop who is now accused of a wrongful death, etc., can be shown to have achieved a certain proficiency with a certain weapon, and if he mis-used that weapon its now on him. Hard, but true.

If the weapon used is not the same, and there is no documented training with it similar to his initial training and subsequent qualifications… well, there are lawyers who are wising up up to this "opportunity". Again, this can be easily handled by documenting transitional training and quals; but how many agencies go to those lengths? Most just let the troop qualify with his new roscoe and call it a day.

In my day, when someone showed up at the range with a new pistol they wanted to carry, I took them aside and made them SHOW me they knew how to work it, and knew the differences between the new piece and the one they had been carrying. If we had the time, I would try to work with them if they needed it. But more than one was told to come back and try again. That didn't exactly endear me to some folks, but I wasn't too concerned about that.

It all goes back to making more work for the FTU guy, and you can argue that until the cows come home. Some simply don't want to be bothered, and some genuinely do not have the time. In most smaller agencies, the firearms guy has several more "hats" to wear… particularly in the smaller sheriff's offices around here.

.

[ST911]

I don't know it for a fact, but bet a lot of the resistance to personally owned duty weapons is due to firearms instructors looking for the path of least resistance.

Truth. Having additional guns on the line that they are not familiar or competent with, and cannot help students work through problems on, exposes chinks in the armor and can be devastating to the ego.

See also: purchase/selection processes.

[psalms144.1]

Now take your average cop who is given the latitude to carry a personally-owned pistol. Many of them would buy Brand X simply because somebody told them it was the schizz. Beyond that… well, use your imagination.

In my day, when someone showed up at the range with a new pistol they wanted to carry, I took them aside and made them SHOW me they knew how to work it, and knew the differences between the new piece and the one they had been carrying. If we had the time, I would try to work with them if they needed it. But more than one was told to come back and try again. That didn't exactly endear me to some folks, but I wasn't too concerned about that.I've lost count of the number of pistols that I personally consider unsuited for duty carry in people's holsters - everything from Taurus revolvers to Ruger LC9s to STI .40 S&W 1911s - all of which showed NUMEROUS failures on the range, and which, in many cases, their owners barely knew how to handle. That's the down side to having a personal carry policy that is VERY "pro-choice."

Most of the people in my agency are looking for the smallest, lightest pistol they can routinely carry on their ankle (if at all), and still make passing score on our qualification. Again, this leads to some WILDLY misinformed choices. Given my druthers, I would transition us to a single platform (Glock or M&P), issue a full size "duty" gun and a compact "off-duty/deep concealment" gun, and call it a day. G17/26, G22/27, M&P FS/C - makes no difference to me. Even the P320, if it pans out, would be a decent choice - then we would only have to issue the frames and slides to interchange - and have a single serial number to track. Then I'd authorize personally owned pistol OF THE SAME PLATFORM AND CALIBER - eg G19/23/34/35 as options - and call it a day. I get that there's no "one gun fits all" solution out there, but, quite frankly, I have yet to meet anyone even marginally motivated that can't be taught to shoot well with a polymer framed striker fired pistol.

[LSP972]

... anyone even marginally motivated ...

And that right there, my friend, is the skunk in the refrigerator.

The biggest shock to my naive young arse, upon getting out of the academy and into a real-world troop, was the preponderance of apathy toward one's duty piece and ammunition. It simply stunned me. Many years have passed since, and while I still find this situation more than slightly ridiculous, it ain't my dog anymore. As a long-dead shift lieutenant once told me: "Nothing surprises me anymore. I am, however, amazed from time to time."

.

[Bigguy]

As just an average, ordinary civilian, I simply assumed that all cops were expert with their duty pieces. I don't have empirical numbers, but I'd be willing to bet a large sum that most American citizens assume that all police are gun experts. I don't remember whether it was this board or another where somebody pointed out that it ain't necessarily so. There is a retired CHP on one of my motorcycle forums who is proud that he never carried his duty gun with a round in the chamber while on duty, and that he disarmed as soon as he went off shift.
The heaping shovel fulls of humility I've learned on this board discovering how little I actually know compared to real experts helped me keep my fingers off the keyboard with a response. I'm still trying to picture how things would have gone down if he'd ever needed to use his weapon while mounted on his bike. I also got the impression that as soon as the uniform came off and he went home, in his mind he was no longer a cop. Certainly not one that needed to be armed.

[Chuck Whitlock]

As just an average, ordinary civilian, I simply assumed that all cops were expert with their duty pieces. I don't have empirical numbers, but I'd be willing to bet a large sum that most American citizens assume that all police are gun experts. I don't remember whether it was this board or another where somebody pointed out that it ain't necessarily so. There is a retired CHP on one of my motorcycle forums who is proud that he never carried his duty gun with a round in the chamber while on duty, and that he disarmed as soon as he went off shift.
The heaping shovel fulls of humility I've learned on this board discovering how little I actually know compared to real experts helped me keep my fingers off the keyboard with a response. I'm still trying to picture how things would have gone down if he'd ever needed to use his weapon while mounted on his bike. I also got the impression that as soon as the uniform came off and he went home, in his mind he was no longer a cop. Certainly not one that needed to be armed.

Unless my memory fails me, many moons ago around these parts there was a support service (not patrol) type deputy who had a trigger lock on his holstered revolver. I just remember hearing about the guy when I was brand new, but with some of the folks I've encountered in this business, I believe it.

[JBP55]

And that right there, my friend, is the skunk in the refrigerator.

The biggest shock to my naive young arse, upon getting out of the academy and into a real-world troop, was the preponderance of apathy toward one's duty piece and ammunition. It simply stunned me. Many years have passed since, and while I still find this situation more than slightly ridiculous, it ain't my dog anymore. As a long-dead shift lieutenant once told me: "Nothing surprises me anymore. I am, however, amazed from time to time."

.

You would have enjoyed what the local LEA FTU guys did recently. They had all LEO's place their duty pistol and shotgun on the line for inspection before giving a safety briefing which is their SOP. Everyone was then shown how to disassemble and assemble the 870 and the G34/G35 before being paired up and told to go to the combat range next door without being told what they were going to do. The guns were disassembled and placed on the firing range and two officers at a time had to run to the range and assemble the 870 and Glock and shoot a totally strange course using both guns while the FTU was constantly barking at them.
It created a little stress and everyone learned from it. I am looking forward to what they do in November other than POST Qualification.

[jlw]

A lot of interesting opinions here. I've actually been rethinking our policy as it keeps getting further and further from my original intent; mainly because, in my opinion, I have been too accommodating.

If I had my druthers, we'd get rid of the all of the .40SW and .45 ACP pistols in inventory and replace them with 9mm. I'd stock 9mm, .223 and 12ga ammo, and if personnel wanted to carry something else, they'd be responsible for furnishing approved training and duty ammo.

As it stands, guys swapping calibers on me has flubbed up my ammo orders a couple of times; so, I am thinking about tweaking the existing policy to establish a once per year time period to declare a pistol for that year with no switching of calibers until the next year's period to declare a firearm.

[ST911]

I've found maintaining ammo (green, duty, training) for different calibers more annoying than supporting different gun types.

[LSP972]

You would have enjoyed what the local LEA FTU guys did recently. They had all LEO's place their duty pistol and shotgun on the line for inspection before giving a safety briefing which is their SOP. Everyone was then shown how to disassemble and assemble the 870 and the G34/G35 before being paired up and told to go to the combat range next door without being told what they were going to do. The guns were disassembled and placed on the firing range and two officers at a time had to run to the range and assemble the 870 and Glock and shoot a totally strange course using both guns while the FTU was constantly barking at them.


Well, that's certainly… different. I wonder, however, if a simple stress course, such as a run through a shoot house, might have been a bit more relevant? Didn't they build a shoot house out there recently? I'm assuming you're talking about the LPSO range?

During the second week of firearms, we would constantly warn the cadets about their upcoming stroll through "The House of Pain". Some of them actually worried about it… which was the whole idea.

.

[HCM]

I am thinking about tweaking the existing policy to establish a once per year time period to declare a pistol for that year with no switching of calibers until the next year's period to declare a firearm.

We do this to avoid the gun of the month club - you can only add / remove one POW per year.

Personally Owned Weapons (POW) are certainly doable even in a large agency.

We are a large Fed agency ( approx 18,000 sworn). As Gadfly stated earlier, we issue the P-229R DAK .40, with very limited amounts of issued P-239 DAK .40, P-226 DAK .40 and Glock 26's. You can add one POW per year from our approved list and can carry any combination of issued and/or POW weapons, however, you primary and secondary / off duty must be the same trigger configuration. All the semi autos must have steel night sights. Other than sights, only "factory" magazines, accessories etc are authorized, so for example Houge grips are Ok since they SIG uses them as OEM on some models. Skate board tape and other stick on grips are a gray area but allowed. The E2 grips are only allowed on a POW if the gun came that way from SIG, we have the SIG slim line grips as an option for issued guns.Officers are not allowed to do anything other than field strip the weapons ( Issue or POW).

In order to get a POW approved, the weapon must be inspected by an agency field armorer, once the armorer signs off, the officer must complete 4 hours of transition training and qualify with the weapon. paperwork documenting all this is then submitted to local mangement and HQ for final approval.

Our POW's:

SIG P226, 229, 239 .40 DAK
HK USPc and P2000sk .40 LEM
Glock 17 & 26 9mm
S&W J frames in .38 or .357 (back up and off duty use only)

Ammo:
We use duty ammo for all training exccept when Frangible/Green/lead free is required. You are only supposed to shoot issued ammo out of issued guns and only use issued ammo in POW's duing training and qualifications on duty.

Normal Duty ammo is:
.40 Federal 180 gr HST
9mm CCI 124gr +P Gold Dot
38 Spl is 135 gr +p Gold Dot

Long Guns are issued only ( 14" 870 & 14.5 " Colt M4 with EoTech 552)

Laziness on the part of FI's / FTU guys is certainly an issue with POW's and ammunition (I can say that since I am one). Despite our agency policy, my predecessor as Senior FI at my current duty station (now retired) refused to process requests for POWs unless it was for a second line supervisor or a member of a specialized team. The first time I showed up to qualify with my agency approved Glock 26, I was told I would have to go to Walmart and buy 9mm ammo on my lunch break if I wanted to qualify and keep carrying it !

[psalms144.1]

And that right there, my friend, is the skunk in the refrigerator.

The biggest shock to my naive young arse, upon getting out of the academy and into a real-world troop, was the preponderance of apathy toward one's duty piece and ammunition. It simply stunned me. Many years have passed since, and while I still find this situation more than slightly ridiculous, it ain't my dog anymore. As a long-dead shift lieutenant once told me: "Nothing surprises me anymore. I am, however, amazed from time to time."
Brother - I hear you! Fortunately for me, in my current "squad" I haven't run into anyone who simply doesn't give a kitten, and I've got lots of folks starting to CRITICALLY evaluate their choice or weapon based on their performance, not just what's issued or "Johnny told me it's betterer..."

When I discussed "motivating" folks, my thoughts are this: we're a federal agency, everyone get's "Law Enforcement Availability Pay" (LEAP) - a 25% pro-pay to avoid the need for any paperwork for overtime (or their paying any, except in unusual circumstances). My plan is - set a realistic performance expectation, and folks who fail to meet it get their gun taken away and LEAP suspended until they show adequate proficiency.

Painful? You betcha - on all of us - because while someone is "remediating" the rest of us will need to pick up duty agent slack, etc. But, it's a price I'd be glad to pay in order to know that my counterparts won't put a bullet in my kitten when they're behind me getting ready to go through a door...

[LSP972]

My plan is - set a realistic performance expectation, and folks who fail to meet it get their gun taken away and LEAP suspended until they show adequate proficiency.

.


Good plan. Only one slight problem… the "No Slug Left Behind" doctrine is tightly entertwined with the cultural diversity/politically correct vomitus we've been having to swallow for too long. You and I both know that the only way to fully acquire the attention of the non-caring types is to get into their wallet. THAT, they understand. Anything else, they either aren't interested or will cry about unfairness.

Good example; some years back, one of the think-tank types in our Schemes and Dreams section actually came up with a good idea; reward superior marksmanship skills with a special ribbon for everyday uniform wear. Even the Deputy Superintendent at the time, a reactionary old curmudgeon if one ever lived, bought into the idea and approved it…

…until he realized that practically all of the command staff, and many of the protected species within our ranks, would NOT get to wear the ribbon. The word came down post-haste… 10-22 that marksmanship ribbon business, effective yesterday. Somehow, I wasn't surprised...:D

Heck, man, its only been in the past few years that our FTU guys have been allowed to send a bolo artist home, sans weapon and unit, after his/her third attempt- and failure- to qualify.

My point here is, your plan would work… and that is precisely why it is VERY unlikely to be implemented. Too many deserving folks would be affected, and that is… unfair and politically incorrect.

.

[psalms144.1]

Good plan. Only one slight problem… the "No Slug Left Behind" doctrine is tightly entertwined with the cultural diversity/politically correct vomitus we've been having to swallow for too long. You and I both know that the only way to fully acquire the attention of the non-caring types is to get into their wallet. THAT, they understand. Anything else, they either aren't interested or will cry about unfairness.

Good example; some years back, one of the think-tank types in our Schemes and Dreams section actually came up with a good idea; reward superior marksmanship skills with a special ribbon for everyday uniform wear. Even the Deputy Superintendent at the time, a reactionary old curmudgeon if one ever lived, bought into the idea and approved it…

…until he realized that practically all of the command staff, and many of the protected species within our ranks, would NOT get to wear the ribbon. The word came down post-haste… 10-22 that marksmanship ribbon business, effective yesterday. Somehow, I wasn't surprised...:D

Heck, man, its only been in the past few years that our FTU guys have been allowed to send a bolo artist home, sans weapon and unit, after his/her third attempt- and failure- to qualify.

My point here is, your plan would work… and that is precisely why it is VERY unlikely to be implemented. Too many deserving folks would be affected, and that is… unfair and politically incorrect.

.Brother - I'm sure you're 1000% correct on this - but it's nice to dream!

[LSP972]

Brother - I'm sure you're 1000% correct on this - but it's nice to dream!

Wait until you retire… then, not only have you no need of dreams, you don't give a kitten anymore about all the slugs around you; you just go do your thing and be happy. Talk about the good life…;)

.

[Jackdog]

[QUOTE=psalms144.1;225344]When I discussed "motivating" folks, my thoughts are this: we're a federal agency, everyone get's "Law Enforcement Availability Pay" (LEAP) - a 25% pro-pay to avoid the need for any paperwork for overtime (or their paying any, except in unusual circumstances). My plan is - set a realistic performance expectation, and folks who fail to meet it get their gun taken away and LEAP suspended until they show adequate proficiency.[QUOTE]

Good luck with that. More than likely this idea will result in a law suit. Also, an agency just can't suspend LEAP at their discretion since it is written into law.

[tanner]

My observation is that laziness and liability tend to go together - like incompetence and promotion likelihood.

I was just told the other day that my lobotomy scars were healing nicely, thank you very much! ;)

[jlw]

I was just told the other day that my lobotomy scars were healing nicely, thank you very much! ;)


I skipped LT and CPT; so, I didn't get the full command lobotomy.

[LSP552]

I skipped LT and CPT; so, I didn't get the full command lobotomy.

I figure my IQ loss rate was about 10 points for each promotion. I swear I was smarter as a Senior Trooper in Detectives than at the command level. ;)

[jlw]

I figure my IQ loss rate was about 10 points for each promotion. I swear I was smarter as a Senior Trooper in Detectives than at the command level. ;)


My old chief used to say that the academy must have gotten better since he went through as all of the graduates coming out now thought they could do a better job of running the place.

[Rich]

We issue Gen 3 G22's and are switching to Gen4 17's.

We will allow any personally owned gun from a reputable brand, in 9-40-45acp, as long as we have an armorer to support the make & model. That may change soon since the US DOJ has cracked down on neighboring Albuquerque PD, Bernalillo Co Sheriff, and the State Police for allowing "non-standard and personally owned high-power weapons" to be carried on duty.

As far as enhancements for my gun - Trijicon HD Night Sights, Vickers Mag Release, Vickers Slide Lock, Vickers Mag Base Plate, Grip Plug, Grip Force Adapter or Glock Gen4 Beavertail Insert.

Surefire x300 / x300u. Broken too many TLR-1's.

I don't care for mag wells on the gun cause it really relegates it to duty holster carry only cause of the extra bulk. I use a JM custom AIWB for when I'm not wearing my batman belt.

As far as triggers, stock & slightly heavier is fine for work. Stock on the gen4 and 3.5/NY1 combo on gen3's.

Currently carrying a Gen4 G41... So no extra grip yet (although it could use some on the frame pads). My gen3 G34 also has a 360 stipple job. It took a while for our LT to warm up to that.

Can you go into more detail about breaking to many TLR-1's?

I admit when I took mine apart ( TLR-1 300lumen) that I didn't have much faith in it holding up to a lot of abuse. Not to happy about the water proof rating either.

So far its been good. I bought it at the first of the year. I have drop it and hit it a several times on purpose , so far so good.

BTW
Any other LE Departments have any luck with the TLR-1

[Rich]

We do this to avoid the gun of the month club - you can only add / remove one POW per year.

Personally Owned Weapons (POW) are certainly doable even in a large agency.

We are a large Fed agency ( approx 18,000 sworn). As Gadfly stated earlier, we issue the P-229R DAK .40, with very limited amounts of issued P-239 DAK .40, P-226 DAK .40 and Glock 26's. You can add one POW per year from our approved list and can carry any combination of issued and/or POW weapons, however, you primary and secondary / off duty must be the same trigger configuration. All the semi autos must have steel night sights. Other than sights, only "factory" magazines, accessories etc are authorized, so for example Houge grips are Ok since they SIG uses them as OEM on some models. Skate board tape and other stick on grips are a gray area but allowed. The E2 grips are only allowed on a POW if the gun came that way from SIG, we have the SIG slim line grips as an option for issued guns.Officers are not allowed to do anything other than field strip the weapons ( Issue or POW).

In order to get a POW approved, the weapon must be inspected by an agency field armorer, once the armorer signs off, the officer must complete 4 hours of transition training and qualify with the weapon. paperwork documenting all this is then submitted to local mangement and HQ for final approval.

Our POW's:

SIG P226, 229, 239 .40 DAK
HK USPc and P2000sk .40 LEM
Glock 17 & 26 9mm
S&W J frames in .38 or .357 (back up and off duty use only)

Ammo:
We use duty ammo for all training exccept when Frangible/Green/lead free is required. You are only supposed to shoot issued ammo out of issued guns and only use issued ammo in POW's duing training and qualifications on duty.

Normal Duty ammo is:
.40 Federal 180 gr HST
9mm CCI 124gr +P Gold Dot
38 Spl is 135 gr +p Gold Dot

Long Guns are issued only ( 14" 870 & 14.5 " Colt M4 with EoTech 552)

Laziness on the part of FI's / FTU guys is certainly an issue with POW's and ammunition (I can say that since I am one). Despite our agency policy, my predecessor as Senior FI at my current duty station (now retired) refused to process requests for POWs unless it was for a second line supervisor or a member of a specialized team. The first time I showed up to qualify with my agency approved Glock 26, I was told I would have to go to Walmart and buy 9mm ammo on my lunch break if I wanted to qualify and keep carrying it !

Im a huge fan of the P229 in 40S&W . Can you tell me more about the slim line grips. I know of the E2 and Houge grips. The Houge are expensive G10 and aluminum. I hear they are slim as well.

[SamuelBLong]

Can you go into more detail about breaking to many TLR-1's?

I admit when I took mine apart ( TLR-1 300lumen) that I didn't have much faith in it holding up to a lot of abuse. Not to happy about the water proof rating either.

So far its been good. I bought it at the first of the year. I have drop it and hit it a several times on purpose , so far so good.

BTW
Any other LE Departments have any luck with the TLR-1


I think they're fine for most use. That being said, I am evidently the king of breaking streamlight products. I broke my Stinger HP LED about 4 hrs after it was issued to me.


Over the course of the past few years, I've managed to smash, overheat electronics, and break the switches of of multiple tlr-1's and 1s's. Most of them ended up where the electronics were the cause of failure. When you'd go to activate them, instead of a constant beam, you'd get what looks like a 10 lumen strobe for a few seconds and then it would shut off completely.

I will give streamlight props on the repair of all my lights... Taking them to the local service center they had them back up to full operational status within a day or two at no cost.

[Rich]

If I had my druthers, we'd get rid of the all of the .40SW and .45 ACP pistols in inventory and replace them with 9mm..


I'm still in favor of the 180gr 40S&W PDX1 Bonded and HST are my favorite loads.


I switch to 40cal back in the late 90`s

I recently wanted to go back to 9mm and bought a P30S V3 9mm. (about 8 months ago.)

I found shooting the P30S using 147gr loads to have to much recoil . Compared to my P229 40S&W shooting 180gr.

The standard pressure 124gr are pleasant to shoot and I can practice a lot more using the standard pressure 124 over the 147gr. Its to bad the 124 HST don't have the same performance as the 180 HST


I also been finding more 40S&W ammo in stock than 9mm. And the price isn't that much higher and sometimes I've seen it at the same price.

Another thing I notice that there are several 9mm SD loads on the List that don't pass ALL of the FBI barrier testing? Like all of the 9mm HST loads according to ATK own gel testing. I think according to Winchester the PDX1 147 might Pass all the barriers?
I bet the bonded 147 GD and GS might as well.

I don't know if the 180gr. S&W has all that much more recoil than the 9mm 124+P GD , Ranger 127+P+ and Ranger 147 B / 147 HST

And as far as mag capacity the 17 VS 15. isn't that big of a difference. Also see Sig makes higher capacity 40S&W mags. 14 and 15rounders

For me it comes down to recoil and performance and I think the 40 180gr has it.

Next step is to buy a heavy 32oz or more 9mm . So I can shoot the 147gr PDX1 loads . Then maybe I will favor the 9mm. LOL.

[Rich]

I think they're fine for most use. That being said, I am evidently the king of breaking streamlight products. I broke my Stinger HP LED about 4 hrs after it was issued to me.


Over the course of the past few years, I've managed to smash, overheat electronics, and break the switches of of multiple tlr-1's and 1s's. Most of them ended up where the electronics were the cause of failure. When you'd go to activate them, instead of a constant beam, you'd get what looks like a 10 lumen strobe for a few seconds and then it would shut off completely.

I will give streamlight props on the repair of all my lights... Taking them to the local service center they had them back up to full operational status within a day or two at no cost.

Thank you for your reply.

[mongooseman]

Patrol is issued Glock 22's and I believe there may one or two 23's. Investigations can carry what they want, usually in 9mm, .40, or .45. There have been an array of personally owned firearms, mostly SIG's and HK's and a few Kimbers. Currently, I believe there's only a Kimber compact .45 ACP, and my two 9mm Glocks (although that may change as the Training Officer just purchased a Gen 4 G19 from me) used for duty carry. BUG's vary in caliber and action.

I like the Gen 4 G19's with AmeriGlo I dots, the Vickers Slide release and the 1000 Round Trigger Job. The Gen 3 17 has a Grip Force Adapter, Vickers floorplates and extended slide release, and two slides. The OEM slide has AmeriGlo I-dots. The aftermarket slide is from Suarez International with the Docter III 3.5 red dot. There are some quirks with the red dot/pistol combo but I am coming to believe with dedication (especially for my 50+ eyes) the system works on duty. Spending part of the morning pushing a tennis ball around the range and up the berm from 25 yards+ is a confidence builder. The only other mod for that slide is replacing the all black suppressor sights with the tritium one's from Ameriglo and possibly a threaded barrel.

We are a small, rural department (about thirty sworn), and I would count only three of us as gun people: I'm the pistol nut, there's an AR nut, and a petite female investigator who will shoot anything with a trigger (she attended college on a shooting scholarship). With some of the larger departments switching back to 9mm (Georgia State Patrol) and a new Chief Deputy who worships numbers and standardization, I anticipate a revision to our firearms policy. I plan on arguing for mods that don't affect the firing operation of the Glock but enhance handling and the swapping of night sights.

[LSP972]

With some of the larger departments switching back to 9mm (Georgia State Patrol) .


Any idea why? Last I heard, they were "happy" with their .45 GAPs.

Of course, that may have been Austrian propaganda... ;D

.

[HCM]

Im a huge fan of the P229 in 40S&W . Can you tell me more about the slim line grips. I know of the E2 and Houge grips. The Houge are expensive G10 and aluminum. I hear they are slim as well.

Our people whine about them being too heavy but they work. They work even better when properly lubed!

The slimline grips were available for the P-229 in both TDA and DAK versions. They were only offered for a brief period before they were supplanted by the E2 grips. I posted a picture of mine in BOM's SIG picture thread.

They use grip screws, unlike the E2 grips. One of the most common complaints from LE / institutional users of the P229 has been grip screws coming loose / falling out and subsequently the threads in the aluminum frame being stripped out by officers over tightening and/ or mis- threading the grip screws, dead lining the frame. This was cited by at least one agency large state agency I'm aware of when they dumped the P229R. The E2 grips appeared a year or two later.

Re the Houges: i've tried them and a set of Houge G-10s are on my want list.

Re TLR-1: I've had good luck with them. We have about 60 of them locally and haven't broken one yet. We've also been issuing the stream light TL-2X handhelds with good results.

[jlw]

Any idea why? Last I heard, they were "happy" with their .45 GAPs.

Of course, that may have been Austrian propaganda... ;D

.

According to their training staff and the Troopers that I know, they have been very happy with the GAP preferring it much more than the G22s they had previously. In fact, part of what they told me went into my decision to play the GAP game.

They've also had a couple of shootings with very good round performance.

I have not discussed the switch to 9mm with any of them, but I would suspect ammo costs would be the driving factor.

[mongooseman]

Any idea why? Last I heard, they were "happy" with their .45 GAPs.

Of course, that may have been Austrian propaganda... ;D

.


From my talks with the Troopers, they (patrol guys) liked the G.A.P. With our economy, I suspect dollars as the main reason. Cheaper bullets and less wear and tear on the guns will be the rationale, I guess.

[mongooseman]

" I anticipate a revision to our firearms policy. I plan on arguing for mods that don't affect the firing operation of the Glock but enhance handling and the swapping of night sights."

Chief Deputy: June 4, 2014
"I'm thinking about doing away with anything but the '22's (G22's) anyway."

Proving again I'm to smart to be management material! I bought myself two or three months by pointing out only two of us old guys are carrying something different (me and crime scene supervisor, he has a compact Kimber) so it wouldn't make much difference. He's satisfied....for now. Gotta go manufacture a disaster somewhere to distract The Great Eye......

[UNM1136]

My first agency required us to purchase either a Sig 229, a Glock 23, or a Beretta Cougar, in .40. 130 officers, all hired before my academy got to carry whatever they could qualify with. Everyone after me had to have one of the three compact .40s. SWAT got issued 1911s, and I think their policy has returned to buy your own gun, get it approved by the FTU, Qualify, and you're golden. The FTU sergeant is also a USPSA GM across three platforms. He has two identical S&W M&P .45s for his duty/comp/off duty guns, and is running a .308 for a patrol rifle.

My second agency is 40 officers, and we issue a firearm for the first year of employment, and then you are required to purchase a weapon, get it approved by Firearms staff, and have the Chief approve it. Then qualify and carry. 9mm and Glock are the most common, with .45 and 1911s a close second. Since APD is responding to DOJ's report, we may see some changes in our firearms program. Then again, our policy is similar to several other, larger agencies in the state. We permit mods as long as there are no safeties deactivated, and the firearms staff approves.

Our agency will not issue weapons until it absolutely has to. We tend to use salary savings for operating funds, so when someone leaves, there tends to be a bit of purchasing during the six month hiring process. Our former chief was the longest serving chief in the state, rumored to be because she frequently gave money back to the administration, rather than spending what she had. A third of our patrol rifles are privately owned, and all pistols. We have about 6-8 pistols that we can issue out. Several years ago the ammo shortage was so bad I had to provide much of our ammo for mandated training from my stash at home, and it took the agency 3 years to completely replenish that ammo. Our last shooting was a while back, but we had more headaches with the Lt. who got buck fever and sympathetically fired, launching 6 rounds that eventually struck a vehicle traveling down the roadway in his backdrop, than we did over our firearms practices. Didn't help that the shooting made it on to Cops. The local crime lab got our officers guns back to them in two days post shooting.

I carry a Kimber 1911 with a 10-8 flat trigger, with a duty type trigger pull (5 lbs, a little take up, definitely not a great 1911 trigger) and Tripp and CMC magazines. Since I use that gun most I have CT Laser Grips on it, and dry fire daily. It makes demoing a draw stroke and press out easier as well. The rest of the gun is bone stock. I would not feel under gunned with a 9mm Glock or M&P, and when I am providing remedial training to shooters, I use a Department Glock 19 that I issued myself to demo the drills I am asking them to do. I would not mind issuing nines (really don't care for .40), but many agencies in this state require you to buy your own pistol. I understand the logic in issuing weapons or permitting only certain types to be purchased like several of you do, but I will continue to carry my 1911 for at least another 5-10 years or so unless forced to change, just to justify the purchase. By the time I bought the gun, the grips, the holsters, the mags, the mag pouches, the initial cases of practice ammo, I was into this pistol almost three grand, and at the time my annual uniform allowance was $550 a year. I am watching a lot of the older folks at work shifting to 9mms as arthritis creeps in, and after seeing how cops take care of their guns I actively discourage the use of the 1911, but since a huge percentage of our force came from the big agency next door, everyone either has a 1911 to carry, or gets one to be a cool kid. While I am very pleased with my purchase and my duty gun of the last 7 years, I would not do it again.

pat

[MD7305]

I'm always amazed how regional LE can be. In my southwestern end of VA I'm unaware of any agency that attends our regional academy that allows officers to choose their duty gun. About 10 years ago I knew of two small towns that allowed guys to choose their own weapons but that was primarily because the towns couldn't afford to provide them. Most everyone now totes Glocks with a few agencies issuing M&Ps or Sig 220/229s. After being "voluntold/elected/punished" to head our firearms program, I totally understand the intent of issuing one gun, one caliber to all. If I sat in the corner office I would at least give a couple choices for individual purchase to give folks a chance to pick what works for them (within some parameters). I think rifles are a much more personal thing, I'd definently allow officers to purchase their own (from a list of selected manufacturers) to set up to their liking (with appropriate, quality accessories). My daydreaming is over for the day...

[Rich]

Our people whine about them being too heavy but they work. They work even better when properly lubed!

The slimline grips were available for the P-229 in both TDA and DAK versions. They were only offered for a brief period before they were supplanted by the E2 grips. I posted a picture of mine in BOM's SIG picture thread.

They use grip screws, unlike the E2 grips. One of the most common complaints from LE / institutional users of the P229 has been grip screws coming loose / falling out and subsequently the threads in the aluminum frame being stripped out by officers over tightening and/ or mis- threading the grip screws, dead lining the frame. This was cited by at least one agency large state agency I'm aware of when they dumped the P229R. The E2 grips appeared a year or two later.

Re the Houges: i've tried them and a set of Houge G-10s are on my want list.

Re TLR-1: I've had good luck with them. We have about 60 of them locally and haven't broken one yet. We've also been issuing the stream light TL-2X handhelds with good results.

I will have to look for BOM`S thread . Thanks

btw Ive carried my P229 IWB & OWB and haven't had any issue with the screws coming loose. The screws do rust and some guys freak on it. but all one has to do is scrub off the rust with a tooth brush/oil and it will look new again.

[Spectre044]

I wish my agency would allow at least a minimum of personalization to our G21s. We aren't even allowed to perform basic maintenance (other than cleaning) such as changing a recoil spring or mag spring. Only our armorers are allowed to do this...

[JBP55]

I wish my agency would allow at least a minimum of personalization to our G21s. We aren't even allowed to perform basic maintenance (other than cleaning) such as changing a recoil spring or mag spring. Only our armorers are allowed to do this...

Quite common.

[Chuck Haggard]

Quite common.

And exceedingly ridiculous I might add.

[Spectre044]

Quite common.

I also haven't figured out if I am the only one who actually follows policy, ie, take my gun in to the armory to have my recoil spring changed (because I always get baffled looks from our "armorer" every time I bring my Glock in for a new recoil spring, trigger spring etc) or if I am the only one who shoots enough to need to actually replace normal wear parts... I fear it's the latter rather than the former, especially after going to open range days with some of the other officers at my agency.