Some Limited Guns slides don't lock back?

[cclaxton]

A friend of mine who owns and shoots a bunch of STI guns told me that the slides don't lock back when you run the gun dry on *some* models of STI. I wasn't sure if this was a magazine issue or a gun issue or both. It sounds like a poor design to me. The thinking is that in LIMITED you would never run the gun dry?

Is this true of other models as well?

You would always have to TAC-LOAD in IDPA if you had such a gun. And for duty weapon or concealed...no way.

Strange to me.

Cody

[revchuck]

A lot of USPSA shooters modify the slide stops so the slide can't lock back. It's a competition-only modification with no benefit that I'm aware of off the range.

[PPGMD]

Actually it is quite common to have the slide's magazine tab removed on 2011s.

This is because with the magazine followers that they use for maximum capacity it will regularly cause premature lock backs. And it isn't something that can be tuned out with 100% reliability so it is better to disable it than have issues on a stage.

Lets be honest a Limited 2011 and Open 2011s are a range toy nothing more.

On IDPA ESP guns (IDPA's limited division) this isn't an issue as you don't need to super tune your magazines to get the required 10 rounds in them. And if I were setting up a *shudder* defensive 2011 I wouldn't be super tuning my magazines for capacity but for reliability. So I would use followers that don't have the premature lock back issues, even if it meant giving up a round or two of capacity.

Each gun is built for the purpose it is designed to serve.

[Haraise]

You would always have to TAC-LOAD in IDPA if you had such a gun. And for duty weapon or concealed...no way.

Strange to me.

Cody

Because you're massively wrong.

These are not duty or concealed guns, for one. They are limited guns. That is a competition. That's like complaining NASCAR engines get poor miles per gallon.

They do run them empty. They do not have to tac-load. They rack the slide.

[BigT]

A friend of mine who owns and shoots a bunch of STI guns told me that the slides don't lock back when you run the gun dry on *some* models of STI. I wasn't sure if this was a magazine issue or a gun issue or both. It sounds like a poor design to me. The thinking is that in LIMITED you would never run the gun dry?

Is this true of other models as well?

You would always have to TAC-LOAD in IDPA if you had such a gun. And for duty weapon or concealed...no way.

Strange to me.

Cody


No,no need to tac load in idpa if your slide doesn't lock back. You can dump the mag,reload and rack the slide if your gun is empty.

[Tamara]

This is because with the magazine followers that they use for maximum capacity it will regularly cause premature lock backs. And it isn't something that can be tuned out with 100% reliability so it is better to disable it than have issues on a stage.

This. You've got eleventeen 100rd mags on your belt anyway, so just plan your stage so you won't shoot to slide lock and put a full one in the gun any time you have a chance.

[GJM]

Manny Bragg told me his Limited class 2011 is modified so as to not lock back, because that allows him to get an extra cartridge in the magazine.

[Handy]

I wonder how much influence this curious practice has had on the recent downgrading of the century old "slide release" to "slide lock" by so many experts?

[revchuck]

I think that had to do with the use of the slide release to release the slide being declared anathema by the experts, with slingshotting the slide being the preferred method. I learned to shoot a pistol in the Army in the early 80s, and would have to retrain myself to slingshot the slide. Funny thing is that I never had a problem using the slide release on my autoloaders...I must be deficient.

[Handy]

Yeah, I was just wondering if that's where the experts got that from.

The Army recently reaffirmed using the release as the most reliable way to chamber the current service pistols in combat conditions after enough failures to load with slingshotting.

[Tamara]

I wonder how much influence this curious practice has had on the recent downgrading of the century old "slide release" to "slide lock" by so many experts?

None. There is practically no overlap between the groups.

ETA: To which "experts" do you refer?

[tomr]

Actually I wasnt the starter of this thread....

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?11841-Slide-lock-release-versus-slingshotting

[Handy]

None. There is practically no overlap between the groups.

ETA: To which "experts" do you refer?
The ones Revchuck refers to. I defer to him for whom he refers.

[Tamara]

The ones Revchuck refers to. I defer to him for whom he refers.

No, you invoked these "experts" first. Surely you had someone in mind before Revchuck posted after you?

[jetfire]

This. You've got eleventeen 100rd mags on your belt anyway, so just plan your stage so you won't shoot to slide lock and put a full one in the gun any time you have a chance.

The other reason people do it with 2011s is because it's quite possible with the slide locked back to over insert a 2011 mag so that it ties up the gun, or on some cases breaks off the tip of the ejector. Making sure the slide can't lock back prevents that.

[Handy]

No, you invoked these "experts" first. Surely you had someone in mind before Revchuck posted after you?

Sure. Anyone who is termed an expert by anyone else who is a proponent of not using the slide release. There are enough of them that I had no specific person or school in mind - please take your pick for whatever point you'd like to make. I assumed Revchuck understood what I meant and used it the same way, but you clearly have some other idea.

[Tamara]

...or on some cases breaks off the tip of the ejector.

Pfffft! You don't need that anyway. ;) :p

[jetfire]

Pfffft! You don't need that anyway. ;) :p

"Dude why is my gun rattling like that?"

[TheRoland]

Sure. Anyone who is termed an expert by anyone else who is a proponent of not using the slide release. There are enough of them that I had no specific person or school in mind - please take your pick for whatever point you'd like to make. I assumed Revchuck understood what I meant and used it the same way, but you clearly have some other idea.

I would think that people who talk about not using the slide-release (and talk about "gross motor skills" as justification) are not the same demographics as those who shoot USPSA Limited at a high level, with only a very few exceptions.

[Tamara]

I would think that people who talk about not using the slide-release (and talk about "gross motor skills" as justification) are not the same demographics as those who shoot USPSA Limited at a high level, with only a very few exceptions.

Yup.

[Tamara]

"Dude why is my gun rattling like that?"

Rattle? The only reason anybody needs an "extended ejector" is if they don't want their brass getting chewed up and unreloadable.

Did Sergeant York need an extended ejector to shoot Hitler? No, no he didn't. :p

[HopetonBrown]

I don't think the average USPSA shooter knows who the hell James Yeager is. Lucky them.

[Handy]

Yup.

And?

I had thought that some of those guys using 2011s in competition made a buck teaching, too, which is why I asked.


What happened to the "expert" line of questions?

[PPGMD]

The other reason people do it with 2011s is because it's quite possible with the slide locked back to over insert a 2011 mag so that it ties up the gun, or on some cases breaks off the tip of the ejector. Making sure the slide can't lock back prevents that.

IIRC Dawson makes a magazine catch made specifically to prevent over insertion.

[jetfire]

IIRC Dawson makes a magazine catch made specifically to prevent over insertion.

1. Phrasing.
2. It doesn't always work.

[Tamara]

1. Phrasing.
2. It doesn't always work.

Outlaw country! Woooo!

[TigerStripe]

Yeager didn't come up with the gross motor skill theory. The most well known is Larry Vickers who teaches that slingshotting or overhand rack is the best, close to universal, way to load at slide lock. Vickers also teaches to use the support hand thumb.

[Slavex]

I've had it explained to me by a significant number of high level IPSC/USPSA shooters, that training to reload at slide lock and or training to clear malfunctions is bad training as it is expecting failure. Yes I rolled my eyes at those comments, especially when spoken by some of the people who really should know better. However it is true that a large number of Limited/Standard and Open Division shooters disable their mags to prevent slide lock. Some even disable the slide lock lever itself, and only run the pin through the barrel link or similar. The bad juju of a premature slide locking back is apparently more scary than having to rack after a click no bang.

[Rex Kramer]

I've had it explained to me by a significant number of high level IPSC/USPSA shooters, that training to reload at slide lock and or training to clear malfunctions is bad training as it is expecting failure. Yes I rolled my eyes at those comments, especially when spoken by some of the people who really should know better. However it is true that a large number of Limited/Standard and Open Division shooters disable their mags to prevent slide lock. Some even disable the slide lock lever itself, and only run the pin through the barrel link or similar. The bad juju of a premature slide locking back is apparently more scary than having to rack after a click no bang.

Tenths, if not hundredths of seconds count and these guys do not run their guns empty. They plan their reloads out ahead of time to avoid it. I guess with the design of the gun, it is vastly more likely to have the slide lock back prematurely than it is to run out of ammo and need to do a reload from slide lock. Disabling the side lock makes perfect sense in this case.

[Urban_Redneck]

I wonder how much influence this curious practice has had on the recent downgrading of the century old "slide release" to "slide lock" by so many experts?

IIRC, the "downgrade" to slide lock was a result of the Political Correctness movement, it made left handed people feel more normal.

[Tamara]

I'm looking at the 1940 version FM 23-35 here, which still contains "Chapter 4: Marksmanship, Known Distance Targets, Mounted", and it's called a "slide stop" in here, so if it was called a "slide release" it was before then.

Perhaps unsurprisingly they instruct the user to "press upon the thumbpiece of the slide stop" and not drop the reins of the horse and powerstroke the weapons platform with his other strong hand.

[PPGMD]

The other reason people do it with 2011s is because it's quite possible with the slide locked back to over insert a 2011 mag so that it ties up the gun, or on some cases breaks off the tip of the ejector. Making sure the slide can't lock back prevents that.

I can't believe I missed this when I replied earlier.

"Just the tip."

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I'm looking at the 1940 version FM 23-35 here, which still contains "Chapter 4: Marksmanship, Known Distance Targets, Mounted", and it's called a "slide stop" in here, so if it was called a "slide release" it was before then.

Perhaps unsurprisingly they instruct the user to "press upon the thumbpiece of the slide stop" and not drop the reins of the horse and powerstroke the weapons platform with his other strong hand.

I lol'd so hard I had a powerstroke

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

[jetfire]

I'm looking at the 1940 version FM 23-35 here, which still contains "Chapter 4: Marksmanship, Known Distance Targets, Mounted", and it's called a "slide stop" in here, so if it was called a "slide release" it was before then.

Perhaps unsurprisingly they instruct the user to "press upon the thumbpiece of the slide stop" and not drop the reins of the horse and powerstroke the weapons platform with his other strong hand.

Winning the kittens out of this thread right there.

To the topic itself, one of the funniest conversations I've had in recent memory was talking with a couple of USPSA friends setting their mags up for ProAm to make sure they would lock back. Since that match limits the guns to 10, you want the mag to lock back on an empty slide.

[Slavex]

10ths or 100ths of a second matter to all of us when competing. My personal opinion is there is something wrong with a gun that locks back early, fix that and you have a better gun. I well understand planning your run on a stage to avoid an empty gun, however the number of times I've seen people with disabled slide locks get click no bang during a stage is higher than I can count without a calculator, this is at everything from local club matches to World Shoots, so it's certainly not isolated to the local chumps who read something once, somewhere, about it.

[David Armstrong]

Yeager didn't come up with the gross motor skill theory. The most well known is Larry Vickers who teaches that slingshotting or overhand rack is the best, close to universal, way to load at slide lock. Vickers also teaches to use the support hand thumb.
This. There are plenty of folks out there that teach some version of racking the slide over using the thumb on the slide lock. Whether they qualify as "experts" is in the mind of the reader, I suppose, but there are plenty of folks who are considered well-qualified that teach it.

[rob_s]

10ths or 100ths of a second matter to all of us when competing. My personal opinion is there is something wrong with a gun that locks back early, fix that and you have a better gun. I well understand planning your run on a stage to avoid an empty gun, however the number of times I've seen people with disabled slide locks get click no bang during a stage is higher than I can count without a calculator, this is at everything from local club matches to World Shoots, so it's certainly not isolated to the local chumps who read something once, somewhere, about it.

Which is one of the problems with modifying ahead of your abilities.

You take a guy who hasn't yet gotten to the point that he can virtually guarantee all his hits, and therefore the point at which he will reload, or who can't properly plan a stage to time his reloads correctly, but he thinks "zither right way" is to doable the slide-stop in his gun, and you're going to see lots of puzzled looks when they get a "click" instead of a "bang" and can't figure out why or what to do about it.

The only thing worse than going empty when you didn't mean to is going empty with with slide forward.

[Tamara]

^^^That right there.

At the level of my game, the odds of me getting all flustered or excited and losing count are a whole lot higher than the odds of a bullet nose hitting the slide stop.