Freestyle shooting at 25 yds revisited

[Steaz]

HK VP40 w/Trijicon HD
8 rounds Speer Gold Dot 180gr
B8 at 25 yards
Score 76/80 (2x)

https://i.imgur.com/IfnZwtt.jpg

[NPV]

Admittedly I havn't read through this entire thread but I saw this article by Tim Herron that I thought I'd share

https://www.unitedgungroup.com/news/2016/11/21/tim-herron/

Basically he shows in order to shoot a 3 inch group at 25 yards you need to be able to shoot a one hole group at 7 yards.

[JohnO]

Admittedly I havn't read through this entire thread but I saw this article by Tim Herron that I thought I'd share

https://www.unitedgungroup.com/news/2016/11/21/tim-herron/

Basically he shows in order to shoot a 3 inch group at 25 yards you need to be able to shoot a one hole group at 7 yards.

I read the article in the link posted. There is an obvious lack of understanding by the author of the difference between angular & parallel distortion.

The following is written very poorly and would be correct for angular distortion and dead wrong for parallel distortion.

taking a laser and pointing it at a target at 7 yards, move it 1 inch, it would move about 1 foot at 25 yards.

I'm sorry but that United Gun Group post does a very poor job of trying to get a simple point across.

[EJO]

Went out this morning and did some much needed shooting. Shot my issued 17.4 and was quite happy.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180323/110292fcbbbef47d1a8cba3b453af61f.jpg

My friend and co-worker recently received his 17.4 with RMR06 from Mark. I asked to take it for a spin. Boy I forgot how much I like an rmr mounted pistol.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180323/a055634fd0282e26dfa93111ef15341f.jpg

All rounds fired were Blazer aluminum and shot on the timer. I don’t mark the time anymore unless it’s over 30 seconds.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JHC]

Gen 2's, Gen 3's, Gen 4's . . . Where are the Gen 5's???

I moved my KKM barrel from my RTF2 G19 to my newish Gen 4 and scored this at 50 yards, POI pretty high. Circled hits are the group. Don't know that I've shot a better 50 group with a Glock.

24690

[SC_Dave]

Today was a good day for me at the range. This target marks the first time I put all ten in the black. This is not a great accomplishment for most of you guys but it is for me. I repeated it once more with ten rounds and once with the 8 rounds I had left at the end of the day. After reading EricM post here I decided to try what he did. That was to increase my weak hand grip and slack off my strong hand grip for what I hoped would be less sight disturbance on the trigger break and it worked for me as well as it did for him. I thought "more weak hand, less strong hand" on every shot and it helped. I'm stoked!

https://i.imgur.com/dtRufTD.jpg?1

[SC_Dave]

Today was a good day for me at the range. This target marks the first time I put all ten in the black. This is not a great accomplishment for most of you guys but it is for me. I repeated it once more with ten rounds and once with the 8 rounds I had left at the end of the day. After reading EricM post here I decided to try what he did. That was to increase my weak hand grip and slack off my strong hand grip for what I hoped would be less sight disturbance on the trigger break and it worked for me as well as it did for him. I thought "more weak hand, less strong hand" on every shot and it helped. I'm stoked!

https://i.imgur.com/dtRufTD.jpg?1

I don't know what I was thinking. I scored this wrong. 97?/3X I was so satisfied with 10 in the black I thought it was perfect. :confused:

[JHC]

I knew what you meant. :D

[JohnO]

I don't know what I was thinking. I scored this wrong. 97?/3X I was so satisfied with 10 in the black I thought it was perfect. :confused:

I looked at your first post with the picture and thought: "Well that's really good shooting, who am I to bust this guy's bubble and correct him on score." Then you came along and realized your error. It may not be a 100/100 but that is a darn good target. Doing it in under 30 seconds is also a significant accomplishment.

Since you posted 97?/100, 3X are you questioning the shot at 11-o'clock in the 9 almost 10 ring? If so you go by where the actual bullet impacted, not by how far the paper tears. When the impact is questionable you can use a bullet/live round inserted into the center of the hole to determine if diameter of the bullet actually breaks the adjacent score area line.

[SC_Dave]

I was questioning the one at 11:00. Apparently I need someone else to score my target that knows what they're doing. I guess I've left my mark as a moron in this thread. I feel very foolish.

[Francis]

I was questioning the one at 11:00. Apparently I need someone else to score my target that knows what they're doing. I guess I've left my mark as a moron in this thread. I feel very foolish.

No need to feel that way. That's good shootin'. And everybody miscalculates now and then. JohnO 's tip is new to me, so I learned something from this little discussion. So thank you for your post.

[Francis]

More 25 yd work today. First string had a paper size group with a miss. Here's string 2 and 3 with PRVI 124 and a drive the dot POA. I have no idea why the 3rd string group is so far right. Usually my shots are grouped to the left like that.

The line at the 12 o'clock shot in the 10 ring is a stray mark, so not part of 3rd string.

24738

[JHC]

I was questioning the one at 11:00. Apparently I need someone else to score my target that knows what they're doing. I guess I've left my mark as a moron in this thread. I feel very foolish.

Naw I've done exactly the same thing. I just caught the mistake and got it edited before the edit clock ran out. Actually I've probably posted a mis-score a couple times. Whoa, it's a panic attack until hitting save on the Edit. Funny how we are like that. ;)

[Matt O]

I was questioning the one at 11:00. Apparently I need someone else to score my target that knows what they're doing. I guess I've left my mark as a moron in this thread. I feel very foolish.

Don’t worry about it man. It is good shooting and you were understandably happy with your performance. We’ve all made similar unintentional errors.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Clobbersaurus]

I was questioning the one at 11:00. Apparently I need someone else to score my target that knows what they're doing. I guess I've left my mark as a moron in this thread. I feel very foolish.

No need man, 10 in the black is huge, and 97-3X is outstanding shooting!

[psalms144.1]

I don't know what I was thinking. I scored this wrong. 97?/3X I was so satisfied with 10 in the black I thought it was perfect. :confused:Dave - 97 or 100 - that's WAY good shooting. I don't think I've done better more than a small handful of times in my life, and then with 1911s and tuned handloads. Great work, brother!

[ASH556]

I had an interesting experience during dry fire that led me to think that how hard I grip the gun may be compromising my trigger finger isolation. So the next time I went to the range, I put up a target with multiple bullseyes (B-8 dimensions without the X ring). I shot two 10-shot groups freestyle at 25 yards, the top one with my normal shooting grip, the bottom one with much less grip pressure in my strong hand (maybe 20-30% of normal). No change to my support hand grip. I shot both groups at the same time, alternating shots and resting in a compressed high ready between pairs, and even went AB, BA, AB, BA to make the comparison as even as possible. The bottom group is the best centerfire group I've ever shot. This was with a Walther P99 AS.

So...does this suggest I should apply less pressure with my strong hand, or that I need to learn to better isolate my trigger finger while maintaining the same pressure? I do not know to what extent the lack of "true" isolation I observed is based on anatomy (cannot be changed) vs. habitual patterns of movement (can be learned). Need to do some research.




Today was a good day for me at the range. This target marks the first time I put all ten in the black. This is not a great accomplishment for most of you guys but it is for me. I repeated it once more with ten rounds and once with the 8 rounds I had left at the end of the day. After reading EricM post here I decided to try what he did. That was to increase my weak hand grip and slack off my strong hand grip for what I hoped would be less sight disturbance on the trigger break and it worked for me as well as it did for him. I thought "more weak hand, less strong hand" on every shot and it helped. I'm stoked!



First and foremost, good on both of you for getting out and putting the time in to work and learn something! That's the greatest thing you can do to improve skill!

That being said, I'll caution you from my own experience about the path you're going down. I made the same discovery you both did a few years ago that by relaxing my dominant hand and increasing tension with my support hand that I could shrink my groups. However, 2 things eventually happened:

1. I hit a plateau on my group size shrink
2. My ability to control the gun at speed went down the drain.

This is where I get back up on my "neutral grip" soap box seen here (among other places): https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12244-Freestyle-shooting-at-25-yds-revisited&p=586360&viewfull=1#post586360

You can (and should) learn to develop a grip that will provide you with great precision at distance and also great presentation consistency and recoil mitigation. That is the place of grip zen. The problem is, nobody can teach it. You have to figure it out yourself with rounds on paper. karmapolice and I have both been down this road. Both of us paid good money to stand in front of a world-renowned instructor to have him tell us, "yep, your grip looks good" only to find out later that it really wasn't.

Sight alignment has to be good, trigger press has to be good, grip has to be good. You can fudge one of the three and still get by, but when you get all 3 working together, that's when you'll really hit your stride.

[SC_Dave]

First and foremost, good on both of you for getting out and putting the time in to work and learn something! That's the greatest thing you can do to improve skill!

That being said, I'll caution you from my own experience about the path you're going down. I made the same discovery you both did a few years ago that by relaxing my dominant hand and increasing tension with my support hand that I could shrink my groups. However, 2 things eventually happened:

1. I hit a plateau on my group size shrink
2. My ability to control the gun at speed went down the drain.

This is where I get back up on my "neutral grip" soap box seen here (among other places): https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12244-Freestyle-shooting-at-25-yds-revisited&p=586360&viewfull=1#post586360

You can (and should) learn to develop a grip that will provide you with great precision at distance and also great presentation consistency and recoil mitigation. That is the place of grip zen. The problem is, nobody can teach it. You have to figure it out yourself with rounds on paper. karmapolice and I have both been down this road. Both of us paid good money to stand in front of a world-renowned instructor to have him tell us, "yep, your grip looks good" only to find out later that it really wasn't.

Sight alignment has to be good, trigger press has to be good, grip has to be good. You can fudge one of the three and still get by, but when you get all 3 working together, that's when you'll really hit your stride.

Thanks Ash, I'll be working on the "neutral" grip tomorrow to see how it like me.

[GLB]

Shaking off the rust with a new G19. Head shots were from the holster, draw 1 shot x10. All at 25 yards. Finally can get out without wearing ice cleats.

[HopetonBrown]

I was questioning the one at 11:00. Apparently I need someone else to score my target that knows what they're doing. I guess I've left my mark as a moron in this thread. I feel very foolish.I keep one of these in my wallet.

https://www.doublealpha.biz/daa-ipsc-overlay-gauge

[JMS]

Been carting about a Glock 17 for most of the last year, IoT beta-test some holster stuff for someone; strapped my M&P9s back on, started with a slow-ish fire grouping. Took maybe 45-55sec, pretty pleased to get 'em all in the black on the first go.

24944

[hossb7]

It's been a very long time since I've posted in this thread, or on PF in general for that matter. I went out the other day and shot for groups with my M&P. I think the last time I shot for group was in late 2015. I warmed up with a dot torture at 5 yards (45/50 with most of the missed shots being on the strong hand/weak hand only part), then some index cards at 7 yards.

https://i.imgur.com/oDXncq6.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vOxh8xo.jpg

I didn't scale the above B8 target properly when I printed it, so the black is only 5" in diameter instead of 5.5". This is my first time with them all in the black, and one of my better groups with the M&P. I was holding around 7-8 o'clock on the edge of the black because my M&P shoots slightly high and to the right. Below is one of my previous targets where I was aiming dead center of the bull:

https://i.imgur.com/Qu3VBfO.jpg

And at 50 yards:

https://i.imgur.com/U9I3vze.jpg

The gun:

M&P 9mm manufactured April 2011
Apex Duty/Carry Action Enhancement Kit
Apex Polymer AEK trigger
Apex RAM
Apex Failure-Resistant Extractor
Storm Lake match barrel fitted by G&R Tactical
Heinie Straight-8 Sights
Removed magazine disconnect

[Clusterfrack]

I’ve been noticing lately that my groups have less vertical error, and most of the spread is windage.

25 yds. CZ Shadow 2. 125gr Bluebullets, 3.8gr Prima V.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180401/cf506d5cdfa348e6198a2e71ecaf39f0.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180401/cf99e1b81797a8e5cf5979d57b61d142.jpg

50 yds, 2 strings of fire.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180401/dfab076f4bf0f84f8d5d491f2409cc7e.jpg

[Francis]

Two more strings of extreme right POI today. Not sure if it's the lighting or something else. Focused more intently on the sight alignment on string 3 and got the group more centered.

Speer Lawman 147, drive the dot POA, G19 gen 2.


25001

25002

[rjohnson4405]

Gen 3 Glock 19 with American Eagle 115. This is about average for me with my Glock 19. Left to right I'm all over the place. Something I really want to work on with the Glock, I shoot my Sig a bit better ~90. Can clear dot torture at 5 yards and shoot pretty well at 7. Just opens up at 25.

25003

[MGW]

I have developed a lot of bad habits during group shooting over the last year. It started as looking over the sights after every shot and morphed into pretty severe anticipation.

The other day I spent a lot of time shooting groups on freshly painted B/C size steel at 25 yards. I focused on tracking the sights and nothing else. Things were so bad at the beginning that I would miss the target at 25 yards about once out of every 5 shot group.

I shot several groups loading one round at a time so I could break a dry fire shot after every live round. Then I went back to just shooting groups.

After awhile my groups began to improve dramatically. I painted the steel after every group so I could keep track of what was going on.

This is the best “drill” I have found in a long time. All the stress and anticipation of shooting groups went away. Just watching the sights lift and return with zero expectation of the results.

I still have a lot of work to do but I’m really excited by the possibilities.

[JHC]

The 9mm Operator group was my 10 slow fire @ 25 yds as part of a recent FBI Modified Bullseye that otherwise was not stellar (I threw too many shots out of the black in the 15 yard stages). But the 10 slowfire at 25 were a smile. The gun literally drives nails and the mind and concentration clicked.

The G17 group was from the 25 yard 20 sec and 10 sec stages of my 500 aggregate Sunday.


25022


25023

[littlejerry]

The 9mm Operator group was my 10 slow fire @ 25 yds as part of a recent FBI Modified Bullseye that otherwise was not stellar (I threw too many shots out of the black in the 15 yard stages). But the 10 slowfire at 25 were a smile. The gun literally drives nails and the mind and concentration clicked.

The G17 group was from the 25 yard 20 sec and 10 sec stages of my 500 aggregate Sunday.


25022


25023

JHC, what are the details on that 17? OEM barrel? Looks like a Sevigny rear sight, what front do you have?

[JHC]

JHC, what are the details on that 17? OEM barrel? Looks like a Sevigny rear sight, what front do you have?

Great questions! There is a KKM barrel in that G17.

As I have generally seen dropping in KKM barrels, the slide to frame fit got tighter and POI raised relative to POA. The front post is a Trijicon yellow HD, .250 tall. This gun's rear sight dovetail was too loose with the only Trijicon HD rear sight I had uncommitted. So fishing around in old spare sight parts I found that Warren Sevigny rear. Very sharp eyes on your part.

The combo of that fat HD front post and the Sevigny rear (.150 I think?) makes for pretty tight light bars. Good POI.

[littlejerry]

Great questions! There is a KKM barrel in that G17.

As I have generally seen dropping in KKM barrels, the slide to frame fit got tighter and POI raised relative to POA. The front post is a Trijicon yellow HD, .250 tall. This gun's rear sight dovetail was too loose with the only Trijicon HD rear sight I had uncommitted. So fishing around in old spare sight parts I found that Warren Sevigny rear. Very sharp eyes on your part.

The combo of that fat HD front post and the Sevigny rear (.150 I think?) makes for pretty tight light bars. Good POI.

I thought that group looked a little tight for an OEM 17. Good shooting on your part.

I've been debating putting an Ameriglo .140 ProGlo front on my 19 to pair with a Sevigny rear. Seems like the .140/.150 pairing would be tight. If only they made a .240-.250 tall .125 Pro Glo front...

[JHC]

I thought that group looked a little tight for an OEM 17. Good shooting on your part.

I've been debating putting an Ameriglo .140 ProGlo front on my 19 to pair with a Sevigny rear. Seems like the .140/.150 pairing would be tight. If only they made a .240-.250 tall .125 Pro Glo front...

.140/.150 combo would be fun to try! My elder son loves some 10-8 sets where he combined their now discontinued .130 rear U notch to .125 front and shoot them lights out.

[psalms144.1]

.140/.150 combo would be fun to try! My elder son loves some 10-8 sets where he combined their now discontinued .130 rear U notch to .125 front and shoot them lights out.There's also the "CAP Precision" set that Ameriglo makes (I think it's only sold through Handgun Combatives, though). .125" front, with a narrow (.135"?) rear - so, pretty hi viz front with tight light bars. I really like it on my G34...

[Clusterfrack]

There's also the "CAP Precision" set that Ameriglo makes (I think it's only sold through Handgun Combatives, though). .125" front, with a narrow (.135"?) rear - so, pretty hi viz front with tight light bars. I really like it on my G34...

The CAP PA (https://handguncombatives.store/collections/accessories-1/products/cap-pa-sights) looks excellent. Why didn't I know about this sight? If I was in the market for a new Glock, I'd try them.

[Clusterfrack]

My G43 has (now discontinued :mad:) Ameriglo Operator yellow/green 3 dot sights. Dimensions are 0.140" front / 0.140" rear, for a very tight sight picture. I'm seeing a theme among some of us: narrow sights, with tight notches. I am able to shoot this sight combo pretty darn well at distance, and close up (e.g. Turbo and Light scores on the Gabe drills).

I'm wondering why some of us are bucking the trend of big fronts in sloppy notches? Is it that we share a high level of shooting skill (e.g. M/GM class), good vision, we are asshats, or perhaps something else?

[JHC]

My G43 has (now discontinued :mad:) Ameriglo Operator yellow/green 3 dot sights. Dimensions are 0.140" front / 0.140" rear, for a very tight sight picture. I'm seeing a theme among some of us: narrow sights, with tight notches. I am able to shoot this sight combo pretty darn well at distance, and close up (e.g. Turbo and Light scores on the Gabe drills).

I'm wondering why some of us are bucking the trend of big fronts in sloppy notches? Is it that we share a high level of shooting skill (e.g. M/GM class), good vision, we are asshats, or perhaps something else?

I've been very happy with the FAT big fronts in moderate notches aka the original HD for any purpose. But I see what you mean. With these high vis front sights we don't need a gulch of a notch for close speed. I like the precision cause that floats my boat.

I am cognizant of the feedback from the purely martial side that there is an element of situational awareness lost in very tight rear notch windows. This is in the context of possible no shoots moving around the target. I just haven't had the time or RAM to grasp it, test it out etc.

[Clusterfrack]

I’ve never heard in any of the defensive training I’ve had about “situational awareness lost in very tight rear notch windows”. This doesn’t make much sense to me, and I’m trying to keep an open mind about it. If I’m shooting with both eyes open, how could a tight notch obscure a non-threat?


I've been very happy with the FAT big fronts in moderate notches aka the original HD for any purpose. But I see what you mean. With these high vis front sights we don't need a gulch of a notch for close speed. I like the precision cause that floats my boat.

I am cognizant of the feedback from the purely martial side that there is an element of situational awareness lost in very tight rear notch windows. This is in the context of possible no shoots moving around the target. I just haven't had the time or RAM to grasp it, test it out etc.

[JHC]

I’ve never heard in any of the defensive training I’ve had about “situational awareness lost in very tight rear notch windows”. This doesn’t make much sense to me, and I’m trying to keep an open mind about it. If I’m shooting with both eyes open, how could a right notch obscure a non-threat?

It hit me as a pretty radical concept too. ;)

The feedback was offered to me directly on the range while comparing different sights. I'd never considered it before and I'm not done processing the feedback.
I don't think we're speaking of the closer ranges both eyes open but yeah I saw some potential impact sighting out at 25 yards. I understand it to be particularly impactful in possibly telling one to slam on the brakes and don't break that shot.

And when I get out to longer ranges I'm squinting down to one dominant eye pretty much.

I don't mean to make too much of it. I just wanted to acknowledge it. I haven't changes sights over it or anything. I have thought about trying the Trij HD-XR to this end.

And speaking of which, here is their product description. https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/products/product1.php?id=HDXR


With the challenges of the changing landscape in law enforcement comes the next evolution
of the Trijicon Night Sight line. Building on the features of the current HD™ Night Sights,
the Trijicon HD XR™ night sights are for the next level of advanced target identification
and engagement at increased distances. A thinner front sight post allows shooters to have
a larger field of view which further enhances the ability to identify targets, expedite engagements
and see location of hits on target at longer distances. Pistol shooters that need the advantage
of a more precise engagement in any light can count on the Trijicon HD XR™ Night Sights.


What else could "field of view" be for in this context? I dunno. Sounds like SA. It's fascinating. But sights get expensive. :D

[Mr_White]

My G43 has (now discontinued :mad:) Ameriglo Operator yellow/green 3 dot sights. Dimensions are 0.140" front / 0.140" rear, for a very tight sight picture. I'm seeing a theme among some of us: narrow sights, with tight notches. I am able to shoot this sight combo pretty darn well at distance, and close up (e.g. Turbo and Light scores on the Gabe drills).

I'm wondering why some of us are bucking the trend of big fronts in sloppy notches? Is it that we share a high level of shooting skill (e.g. M/GM class), good vision, we are asshats, or perhaps something else?

I don't know, but I hear you and I have a couple of guesses about this. I tend to think that more practice supports more precise index (stopping a gun on target with the sights already well-aligned) even with sights with tighter dimensions. Larger sight dimensions are easier to do that with. The downside is that it can be easier to present the gun with sights out of alignment initially, and have a more time-costly remediation as we try to find the front sight in the tighter rear notch. But for many of us, that is largely dealt with by practice and the resultant indexing ability. Plus, I'd guess that higher levels of practice are associated with an interest in being able to address harder shooting problems. With the handgun, that largely takes the form of 15-25-50+ yard targets of various sizes and presentations, while under time pressure. For THOSE shooting tasks, I bet a lot of us benefit from somewhat tighter sight dimensions.

I noticed a significant mental reorientation with regard to my expectation of the kind of hits produced by the basic condition of front sight within rear notch, but not perfectly aligned, when I moved from .125/150 sights to .105/.125 sights, and now that I have moved to .140/.160 (I think?) I am dealing with another mental reorientation.

[Gio]

My G43 has (now discontinued :mad:) Ameriglo Operator yellow/green 3 dot sights. Dimensions are 0.140" front / 0.140" rear, for a very tight sight picture. I'm seeing a theme among some of us: narrow sights, with tight notches. I am able to shoot this sight combo pretty darn well at distance, and close up (e.g. Turbo and Light scores on the Gabe drills).

I'm wondering why some of us are bucking the trend of big fronts in sloppy notches? Is it that we share a high level of shooting skill (e.g. M/GM class), good vision, we are asshats, or perhaps something else?

I think it's more simply explained that the people designing and consulting on the vast majority of "shooting" related products on the market are not high level shooters and just don't know what they don't know. Take Trijicon and the HD vs. HD XR sights for example. They release a thinner front sight thinking that's what people want, but failed to make the rear notch narrower, resulting in a large ratio of front to rear sight width. The people designing the sights probably don't understand why the front to rear sight ratio is even important.

[feudist]

I don't know, but I hear you and I have a couple of guesses about this. I tend to think that more practice supports more precise index (stopping a gun on target with the sights already well-aligned) even with sights with tighter dimensions. Larger sight dimensions are easier to do that with. The downside is that it can be easier to present the gun with sights out of alignment initially, and have a more time-costly remediation as we try to find the front sight in the tighter rear notch. But for many of us, that is largely dealt with by practice and the resultant indexing ability. Plus, I'd guess that higher levels of practice are associated with an interest in being able to address harder shooting problems. With the handgun, that largely takes the form of 15-25-50+ yard targets of various sizes and presentations, while under time pressure. For THOSE shooting tasks, I bet a lot of us benefit from somewhat tighter sight dimensions.

I noticed a significant mental reorientation with regard to my expectation of the kind of hits produced by the basic condition of front sight within rear notch, but not perfectly aligned, when I moved from .125/150 sights to .105/.125 sights, and now that I have moved to .140/.160 (I think?) I am dealing with another mental reorientation.

To test my understanding, you are shooting a front sight that is larger than the rear? .140 rear, .160 front?

[Mr_White]

To test my understanding, you are shooting a front sight that is larger than the rear? .140 rear, .160 front?

Nope, the reverse. All the dimensions I list are front sight width/rear notch width. So, .140 front/.160 rear notch right now. Somewhat slimmer light bars, even if a fat front and moderate rear notch.

[Clusterfrack]

Great points Gio and Mr_White. I think a strong index and the ability to shoot with a target focus (sights aligned but blurry) reduces or eliminates the advantage of wide notches. Add a fiber optic, and an advantage of a big/bold HD style front seems debatable. There's not much argument that a tight notch is an advantage at distance or on small targets.

Here's what I'm running now:

Shadow2 - OEM
Black Rear: 0.125" notch
FO front sight 0.120" wide

P-07
Black Rear: 0.115” notch (OEM blacked out)
FO front sight: 0.100” wide (Dawson/CGW)

P-07 - Dawson/CGW
Rear: 0.135” notch
Front: 0.125” width

G19 - Ameriglo Operator g/y
Rear: 0.150" notch
Front: 0.125” width

G43 - Ameriglo Operator g/y
0.140” Front
0.140” Rear


I don't know, but I hear you and I have a couple of guesses about this. I tend to think that more practice supports more precise index (stopping a gun on target with the sights already well-aligned) even with sights with tighter dimensions. Larger sight dimensions are easier to do that with. The downside is that it can be easier to present the gun with sights out of alignment initially, and have a more time-costly remediation as we try to find the front sight in the tighter rear notch. But for many of us, that is largely dealt with by practice and the resultant indexing ability. Plus, I'd guess that higher levels of practice are associated with an interest in being able to address harder shooting problems. With the handgun, that largely takes the form of 15-25-50+ yard targets of various sizes and presentations, while under time pressure. For THOSE shooting tasks, I bet a lot of us benefit from somewhat tighter sight dimensions.

I noticed a significant mental reorientation with regard to my expectation of the kind of hits produced by the basic condition of front sight within rear notch, but not perfectly aligned, when I moved from .125/150 sights to .105/.125 sights, and now that I have moved to .140/.160 (I think?) I am dealing with another mental reorientation.


I think it's more simply explained that the people designing and consulting on the vast majority of "shooting" related products on the market are not high level shooters and just don't know what they don't know. Take Trijicon and the HD vs. HD XR sights for example. They release a thinner front sight thinking that's what people want, but failed to make the rear notch narrower, resulting in a large ratio of front to rear sight width. The people designing the sights probably don't understand why the front to rear sight ratio is even important.

[Mr_White]

Great points Gio and Mr_White. I think a strong index and the ability to shoot with a target focus (sights aligned but blurry) reduces or eliminates the advantage of wide notches. Add a fiber optic, and an advantage of a big/bold HD style front seems debatable. There's not much argument that a tight notch is an advantage at distance or on small targets.

Having just moved from the Dawson Chargers (FO front) to the Ameriglo Bolds, I have found the Ameriglos to be more universally visible across lighting conditions, but with looser dimensions, like we'd expect with night sights. I STILL haven't made it to a USPSA match to try them out there, but that's a test I definitely need to subject them to.

[scjbash]

This is an interesting discussion as I'm currently experimenting with sight changes. For years I've ran a .156 10-8 rear and .140 or .144 tritium fronts. When I decided to try a fiber optic front I went all the way down to a .115(rear is still .156), with the plan of starting there and getting wider as need be. After 5000 rounds I'm still undecided. With the FO taking up almost the full width of the post, and a ton of light on either side, I can sort of treat the FO like a RDS at close range. The rear sight becomes nonexistent and it's just a matter of putting a dot over the target and pressing the trigger(or the top edge of the dot for tighter shots as the range increases). At 25 yards and out though the thin front/wide rear obviously isn't the best option. After some work I don't find much, if any, of an accuracy difference at 25, but it is slower.

I really like the thin FO/wide rear combination inside of 15 yards, and prefer a tighter setup beyond that. For a purely defensive gun I'm leaning towards sticking with the thin FO front.

[45dotACP]

Could only make the 20 yard range today, but playing with the grip techniques GJM was talking about in his TPC class review yielded some interesting results. Used a B3 target because it was there and at 20 yards, the dot mostly covered it.

The outer 6 ring hits were using my G19 which has been proving to be a challenge to shoot well for reasons unknown to me.

Switched to the Gen 4 G17MOS and everything else not in the black was at the end of a 20-30 round testing phase broken up into 5 shot strings. I stopped shortly after because my focus was waning, grip weakening and my trigger press getting more sloppy.

I'm not sure if this is because of the new grip or the recent DA revolver practice and subsequent benefits it has had on isolating my trigger press.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180405/995306db5d7147291a81344f311b89fe.jpg

[JohnO]

Today's 25 yard target at 3 different points in time. 10 rounds per string 3 strings for a total of 30 rounds.

96/100
25138

97/100
25139

89/100 Strong Hand Only. I really fell apart for the last 3 rounds. They cost me 8 points. I got to the range at 17:00 after a long day in the woods with the dogs. And I had too much coffee today. I don't think the coffee effected me but I think my energy level was diminishing at the end.
25140

[rjohnson4405]

Screwed up and shot dot torture before my 25 yard group so it wasn't cold like usual. Reading GJM's post about front sight focus and never stopping trigger movement I think helped a lot. Shot a clean 5 yard Dot Torture and then turned in one of my best groups period, and definitely the best with the G19.

Anyone else notice this level of increase when shooting already warmed up? I'll try it cold again next time and see if I revert to my usual self.

25490


Group from last shooting session.

25003

[psalms144.1]

RJ - nice shooting. Quick question - do you notice if you're gripping your pistol differently or running the trigger differently between close (Dot Torture) and far targets? I'm asking because your DT is nicely centered, but there's a definite left bias in the 25 yard group...

[rjohnson4405]

RJ - nice shooting. Quick question - do you notice if you're gripping your pistol differently or running the trigger differently between close (Dot Torture) and far targets? I'm asking because your DT is nicely centered, but there's a definite left bias in the 25 yard group...

I TRY not to so my answer is not to my knowledge. I THINK it's just a byproduct of the distance adding up from either a misalignment or poor trigger/grip implementation. Meaning 5 yards isn't enough distance for my mistake to show up and gets worse the further you go. I could probably drift my rear sight a tiny bit for my 25 yard group, but I've found it hard to do small adjustments and am worried I'll make it worse rather than better. I really think my current setup is capable of keeping everything in the black. Then I'm allowed to get an aftermarket barrel or upgrade to a Gen 5 as I feel I approach the limits of my Gen 3 with my current practice ammo.

[Leroy]

In regards to sights and notches, I have pretty much settled on rear notch .010-.015" wider than front post for standard full size guns no matter the dimensions. Dims i like are front - rear, .140 - .150, .125 - .135, and .105 - .118.

[markman]

Having just moved from the Dawson Chargers (FO front) to the Ameriglo Bolds, I have found the Ameriglos to be more universally visible across lighting conditions, but with looser dimensions, like we'd expect with night sights. I STILL haven't made it to a USPSA match to try them out there, but that's a test I definitely need to subject them to.

The most accurate sights I have ever used on a handgun were the haley strategic thirteen sights, the rear notch and front blade are both .125 - with that being said, it was unforgiving if your indexing was off, however super fast and accurate when done correctly. I am wondering if you know of any .215 height front sights that are .125 width with a pro glo style front - I feel that would be a superb combination. I have transitioned to mainly RDS equipped handguns, but I am able to almost match my accuracy at distance with the haley sights.

[littlejerry]

The most accurate sights I have ever used on a handgun were the haley strategic thirteen sights, the rear notch and front blade are both .125 - with that being said, it was unforgiving if your indexing was off, however super fast and accurate when done correctly. I am wondering if you know of any .215 height front sights that are .125 width with a pro glo style front - I feel that would be a superb combination. I have transitioned to mainly RDS equipped handguns, but I am able to almost match my accuracy at distance with the haley sights.

Ameriglo sells the pro glo .125 front in various heights, .220 being the tallest

[Mr_White]

The most accurate sights I have ever used on a handgun were the haley strategic thirteen sights, the rear notch and front blade are both .125 - with that being said, it was unforgiving if your indexing was off, however super fast and accurate when done correctly. I am wondering if you know of any .215 height front sights that are .125 width with a pro glo style front - I feel that would be a superb combination. I have transitioned to mainly RDS equipped handguns, but I am able to almost match my accuracy at distance with the haley sights.

Sorry, no idea!

[rodralig]

Hhhhmmm... Been a subscriber to this thread for some time now, so, I guess I might as well contribute.

Well, for my birthday last January my Wife's gift to me was any pistol of my choosing. :D

So, I opted for the H&K USP Expert 45 (yeah, after having tried a range rental once, I just gotta have it).

Immediately after breaking it from jail, I headed straight to the local indoor range. Did a few dry fires to get the feel of a new trigger. Then went straight for 25-yards. After a few shots to confirm zero, I blasted straight away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfTUHhVkgIc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfTUHhVkgIc

Wouldn't one be called out for cheating with this pistol (in completely stock form)? Even I was surprised on what it possible... :)

Cheers,


_

[JohnO]

A target of significance! My son’s first ever 10 shots on a NRA B8 at 25 Yards. Shot with a Glock 21SF. He is 17.

25907

[Clusterfrack]

The most accurate sights I have ever used on a handgun were the haley strategic thirteen sights, the rear notch and front blade are both .125 - with that being said, it was unforgiving if your indexing was off, however super fast and accurate when done correctly. I am wondering if you know of any .215 height front sights that are .125 width with a pro glo style front - I feel that would be a superb combination. I have transitioned to mainly RDS equipped handguns, but I am able to almost match my accuracy at distance with the haley sights.

Awesome. I was unaware of these sights (http://www.haleystrategic.com/weapon-accessories/handgun-accessories/glock-43-13-sights). I find Haley annoying, but these look REALLY good.

[markman]

Awesome. I was unaware of these sights (http://www.haleystrategic.com/weapon-accessories/handgun-accessories/glock-43-13-sights). I find Haley annoying, but these look REALLY good.

Yeah. I actually just bought another set of them, put them on and they were on par with my red dot accuracy.

[Doc_Glock]

Awesome. I was unaware of these sights (http://www.haleystrategic.com/weapon-accessories/handgun-accessories/glock-43-13-sights). I find Haley annoying, but these look REALLY good.

Thanks for the link:

Low in overall height, nice width, allows charging. These check all the boxes I like.

[Clusterfrack]

Ruger LCP 1 (gen 2). 25 yds freestyle.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180503/25a19637030e483ae8e513f07ad984df.jpg

[JHC]

Ruger LCP 1 (gen 2). 25 yds freestyle.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180503/25a19637030e483ae8e513f07ad984df.jpg

Which you prefer to the G42 correct? ;)

That's pretty cool. :D

[Clusterfrack]

Which you prefer to the G42 correct? ;)

That's pretty cool. :D

Thanks. I do prefer it over the 42 for a NPE gun in .380. I wanted to hate the ugly cheap-ass thing, but it shoots really well in my hands. I was noticing during this session how well the sights track. Straight up and down. Really remarkable for a mousegun.

I just replaced the takedown pin with the anti-walk pin from Tandemkross. So far so good.

[SC_Dave]

I haven't shot at 25 yards in about a month. I couldn't buy a decent score yesterday. So for the rest of the day I only worked at 25. Skills are perishable!

https://i.imgur.com/1XXwgf9.jpg?1

[DAVE_M]

It's been a while since I broke 90, so I'm going to dedicate more practice to it.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4701/38928570115_51e7e5b66f_b.jpg

[Clusterfrack]

Getting sighted in for USPSA Area 1.

Shadow 2, 125gr Bluebullets, 3.5gr Prima V

25 yds on top, 50 yds on bottom.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180509/4875e702f1f2c7fa6ed3aa5a79bb06e2.jpg

[HCM]

I've been a lot of speed drills at work so today I did some 25 yard B8s to change it up.

Duty gun - Gen 4 G17 stock except for HD sights- ammo was 124 grain Hydra Shok
26257

SIG P320 X Carry - stock - ammo was Speer Lawman 115 +P FMJ
26259

Wilson Beretta Brig Tac with the same Speer Lawman 115 +P
26260

[SC_Dave]

Always that one. 25 yards, cold, no timer. Working on mechanics.

High left bias for some reason.

https://i.imgur.com/CbBUu5J.jpg?1

[SC_Dave]

Best 25 yard score for me to date. I'm learning a lot about grip and trigger control working at 25.....

https://i.imgur.com/nVNjBqp.jpg?1

[EMC]

25yards, Gen4 G19 with overwatch precision falx trigger. Ameriglo agent sights.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180518/7a3e054904281262a3af548920c22801.jpg

[JHC]

Five freestyle, five SHO. 26437

[Steaz]

I'm less good at this than some other things, but this seems reasonably okay.

Freestyle unsupported of course

VP9SK at 25y with 147gr carry ammo. 10 rounds present, that little group in the outer 10 is a triple

89/100
https://i.imgur.com/dLkUAF3.jpg

[Clobbersaurus]

G17 Gen 5

94-4X

http://i.imgur.com/4VT0BHd.jpg

[NH Shooter]

Since the indoor range I use during the winter is limited to 60 feet, today is the first time since last year I took the pistols to the outdoor range. I set up a NRA B34 reduced target at 25 yards (B34 at 25 yards simulates B27 at 50 yards) and fired a 10-round string from my PPQ using some Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364);


http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/ppqtarget-4.jpg


These were the first shots I fired and it turned out to be the best group of my four attempts. Had I held a little lower I would have picked up another three or four points, but I'll take the 91-0X. Extreme spread measured about 4.5 inches.

[JMS]

M&P9fs ("Thing One"), using AE9FP. 3" extreme spread.

26659

[NH Shooter]

M&P9fs ("Thing One"), using AE9FP. 3" extreme spread.

That's some good shooting JMS!

[JHC]

That's some good shooting JMS!

And how!!!

[Steaz]

Comparing POI using the same POA with different rounds today, all standing unsupported two hands 25y

The short of it is the four I shot all hit to the same POI, about as accurate as I am capable of, though the Lawman seems to group slightly larger (shot on other targets not pictured for a little larger sample size than is represented here)

VP9:
5 rounds Atlanta Arms 115gr JHP
5 rounds Federal HST 124gr standard pressure
5 rounds Speer Lawman 124gr
5 rounds Atlanta Arms 115gr FMJ
https://i.imgur.com/DSqA66Q.jpg


VP9SK:
10 rounds Atlanta Arms 115gr FMJ
5 rounds Federal HST 124gr standard pressure
5 rounds Speer Lawman 124gr
https://i.imgur.com/sSzBbUi.jpg

[richiecotite]

What I did today. Gen 4 g17, .140 orange ring front, .165 black rear.

I’ve found the orange target helps me significantly. I shoot almost exclusively indoor, and the backstop is black.

Load is 5.8 gr of power pistol under a 124 V-crown.

26681

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180528/3a0e8873f8f962d3a0a813e6f8ad7408.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180528/18ad995abb3135d3aca8e11fb6fc5ad9.jpg

[JHC]

Mashed my left thumb with a framing hammer yesterday so today was dedicated to SHO. Really focuses the mind. Kinda like that framing hammer did.

First my warm up with the 9mm Operator

26970

Later with my Gen 4 G19.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/78036189@N07/27844394867/in/dateposted-public/

[NH Shooter]

Mashed my left thumb with a framing hammer yesterday so today was dedicated to SHO. Really focuses the mind.

The only thing more exhilarating than smashing your thumb with a hammer is a prostate biopsy. :-0

Target looks good!

[WobblyPossum]

Finally shot a passing Kyle Defoor hat qual yesterday (10 rounds at 25y in 20s or less from the draw)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180610/2cdc53dabfeb5762776b448784167eda.heic


–————————————————
My posts only represent my opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of my employer. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

[spinmove_]

My most recent attempt at 10 rounds @ 25 yds.

G19.4

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180628/323add0ef8fd4e1fcd01005416fa0247.jpg


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[Francis]

Not one of my better days but if I post the good may as well post the bad.

I liked the windage on attempt two (circled hits). Need to work on elevation. Bottom two hits with an 'X' were my first 2 shots with a cut the circle in half POA. Started over with a 'dot over' POA.

28046

Update: Dang it. I aligned the pic on my phone and double checked in Paint. It's still side ways. Apologies Tom.

[spinmove_]

Best I could muster yesterday. G19.4 #2

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180715/17661d77bd08b3b54412521a2fc3a49a.jpg


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[lwt16]

28139

Sig P320 compact (not mine) with a Romeo sight. 5 shots with irons only .

28140

This first 5 was with the dot. Hst 147 grain Jhp.

Then I shot my M&P and had a 96 going and put one in the 6 ring. Rest we’re all black.

Back to it tomorrow.

[GAP]

Glock 26 Gen 5
124gr +P Speer Gold Dot
25 yards - First 10 round group

28259

[RJ]

Ruger LCR 357 Model 5450 with S&B 148 gr SWC ammo, 42-1X:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180721/c2227b151a55c48d3cdacb5016b95839.jpg

[RJ]

Ruger LCR 357 Model 5450 with S&B 148 gr SWC ammo, 42-1X:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180721/c2227b151a55c48d3cdacb5016b95839.jpg

It occurrs to me I forgot to mention this was 10 rounds, I.e. two cylinders worth.

The total (42) reflects where I am at with my new snubby, just starting out. The missing 5 rounds went down range somewhere. Room for improvement obviously. Iirc my PB is an 83 with a VP9.

I shot the 2 strings like usual, gripped very tightly and try to press smoothly through in one go.

Ammo was S&B 148 gr wadcutters.

[GJM]

Yesterday, I was checking zero on a G4 34. Freestyle. Only 20 yards and a five shot group, but I was impressed enough I took a picture — moved it two clicks left.

28276

[BN]

It occurrs to me I forgot to mention this was 10 rounds, I.e. two cylinders worth.

Well crap! I was pretty impressed for a while. :)

[RJ]

Well crap! I was pretty impressed for a while. :)

Me too! Yeah that five rounds looked good for a second.

Then I snapped out of the dream I had. :)

[psalms144.1]

It occurrs to me I forgot to mention this was 10 rounds, I.e. two cylinders worth.

The total (42) reflects where I am at with my new snubby, just starting out. The missing 5 rounds went down range somewhere. Room for improvement obviously. Iirc my PB is an 83 with a VP9.

I shot the 2 strings like usual, gripped very tightly and try to press smoothly through in one go.

Ammo was S&B 148 gr wadcutters.I was about to congratulate you on a good shooting - 42/50 on a first run with that plain black sight would be good work.

Well, you're trying. I'd advise working fundamentals in closer a bit more before you get to 25 yard stuff. First priority would be figuring out where the POA/POI is for that load.

[spinmove_]

Today’s attempt with G19.4 #2. 10 rounds, 25 yds. 93-0x by my count.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180722/659ef0b770212b23c7ea99d34219cc74.jpg


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[lwt16]

My duty weapon with its creep filled trigger.

28455

I knew I threw the 8 ring round as the shot broke. My trigger hits the wall and then has this aggravating drag to the break. I got in a hurry and jerked it.

Speer 124 fmj factory seconds.

I loathe the trigger. Can’t wait to retire and ditch that trigger.

[Francis]

Had three runs yesterday. This is the best. Runs 2 and 3 were subsequently worse with a Mike on the 3rd attempt. 93 1x, 89 1x and 80. I liked the Geco ammo.

G19.2, Ameriglo Spartan, Geco 124, 6 o'clock hold on the orange.

28576

[lwt16]

28607

Oh 8 ring.....why do you hate me?

Shot this today with PPU 115 grain. Honestly, I wasn't expecting much from this box of 9mm. A buddy gave me a box to try to diagnose a pistol for him that was failing to feed. I had a few rounds left over so I ran them at 25 through my personal G17.4 with it's factory trigger and internals. Talon grips and a set of Ameriglo I-dot pros in lumigreen. Everything else is stock Glock.

I have been shooting 124 and 147 out of this G17.4 and this was some of the first 115 grain I have tried in it. I may have to order more of it since it seems to agree with my Glock.

Sort of proud of this target. I was mid 90s for the others I ran today. Shot my P320 and G19.3 in addition to the G17.4. Had a 94-1x that would have been all black except for the last shot I rushed like crazy and put way low in the 7 ring. That one was with the Sig with it's Apex trigger and trigger bar.

Regards.

[JAH 3rd]

lwt, hate to be wearing that target on my chest! Great shooting there.

[lwt16]

28653

Had one on my bench to adjust the rear sight. Owner went at it with a hammer without loosening the set screw.

Re-centered it after loosening the screw and she’s good to go.

He’s convinced it shoots low and left. It doesn’t.

25 yards. Offhand unsupported. Speer 124 grain factory seconds.

[lwt16]

28801

28802

28803

The middle target was my last B8 repair center and I had shot four rounds of semi wad cutter .38 special into it. Since I never all black a B8 with the G30S, I figured I would shoot my last 10 rounds of .45 acp into it for giggles.

And of course, I stepped up to the 25 yard line and all blacked it. lol

I have to aim real low with those Ameriglo Agent sights I have on the G30S. Pretty punishing recoil with the loads I was using (Factory PMC) and my arthritis is now kicking after today's nearly 3 hour session in the heat.

The bottom target with the G42 shows I still have work to do.

Regards.

[Francis]

I'm developing a very strong love/hate thing with this drill. It always keeps me coming back for more in quest of 10 solid hits within the confines of the nine ring. In fact most of my dry fire lately has been on trigger drills, really working on not moving the sights.

Used HST 147 and ran 3 strings today. The groups tightened but could not get the windage to work today. I don't know if I didn't have good sight alignment or if I was milking the grip.

G19.2

29001

29002

29003

[lwt16]

29027

One of our IT guys bought this police trade in gen 3 G21 SF and wanted me to detail strip it and look it over.

Carried a lot....shot very little. Worst Glock trigger I ever fired.

Sort of wanting a G41 now to see how they run at 25.

Regards.

[ubervic]

29027

One of our IT guys bought this police trade in gen 3 G21 SF and wanted me to detail strip it and look it over.

Carried a lot....shot very little. Worst Glock trigger I ever fired.

Sort of wanting a G41 now to see how they run at 25.

Regards.

Ummmmm............shut the eff up. :)

My older eyes won’t allow me to shoot such a group at 25 yds.

[HCM]

Ummmmm............shut the eff up. :)

My older eyes won’t allow me to shoot such a group at 25 yds.

You sound like a good candidate for an RDS on a pistol.

[45dotACP]

29027

One of our IT guys bought this police trade in gen 3 G21 SF and wanted me to detail strip it and look it over.

Carried a lot....shot very little. Worst Glock trigger I ever fired.

Sort of wanting a G41 now to see how they run at 25.

Regards.Interesting...I shot a G21 and it had one of the better triggers I've shot in a Glock and it was easier for me to shoot than any of my 1911s with hard fit barrels. Possibly one of the most accurate .45s I've shot.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[lwt16]

Ummmmm............shut the eff up. :)

My older eyes won’t allow me to shoot such a group at 25 yds.

I thought the same thing a while back.

I found that my eyesight wasn't the limiting factor: it was my trigger press.

If the lighting is good I can get by with my aging eyes.....if the lighting is poor I can put on some cheap reading glasses underneath some eyepro and I can see that front sight very clear.

Trigger press is where its at.

Regards.

[lwt16]

Interesting...I shot a G21 and it had one of the better triggers I've shot in a Glock and it was easier for me to shoot than any of my 1911s with hard fit barrels. Possibly one of the most accurate .45s I've shot.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Not this LE trade in. It's very heavy and overall terrible for a Glock. I've got some extra connectors laying around and plan on giving it a spa treatment.

During firing those ten rounds above, I kept pressing and waiting....pressing and waiting.....pressing......so much that I thought the trigger was dead and something had gone wrong with it. I'd put the weight in the neighborhood of 9-10 pounds. I'm borrowing a scale later this week to see what the average is.

I would guess that with a better trigger and a thinner front sight, I could tighten up the groups some.

[HopetonBrown]

My friend at the local range just got a Gen 3 G26, so we took it out for its first shots. Stock, out of the box.

He shot a really nice 54/60 with 3 in the 10 ring. I was hoping I wouldn't embarrass myself and managed a 56/60 with 4 in the 10 ring.

The interesting part to me was where are groups hit. He's a lefty, I shoot right handed. My group was low left and his was high right. Same gun, same target, same distance, same ammo but our groups were about 3 inches from each other.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180818/2950ddb91ac0e710562cae50aea194ec.jpg

[lwt16]

29261

Got a little concerned that I was spending too much time on slow fire B8 repair centers. So today at work, I ran two department timed quals with one target.

First time was center mass.....second qual was head shots only.

Starts at the 25 yard line (10 rounds in 50 seconds five standing/five kneeling) and everything else is 15, 7, 5, and 3 yards.

Still hate my trigger on my issue G17.4. Don't really care for those targets either as I was taught to shoot high center chest and not that low.....but free targets so.....

Regards.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I thought the same thing a while back.

I found that my eyesight wasn't the limiting factor: it was my trigger press.

If the lighting is good I can get by with my aging eyes.....if the lighting is poor I can put on some cheap reading glasses underneath some eyepro and I can see that front sight very clear.

Trigger press is where its at.

Regards.

These work even better than using readers under your shooting glasses. Feels like cheating. You do have to work out where to attach them to your lens for your eye and shooting style:

https://www.amazon.com/Hydrotac-Magnifying-Magnifier-Koala-Magnification/dp/B06X9HQHZ8/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1534768440&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=hydrotac+stick+on+bifocal+lenses&psc=1

[Doc_Glock]

Ruger LCR .22. Very enjoyable working the DA trigger.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180821/e29541f83809e878530d889a651bbce0.jpg

[Robert Mitchum]

The back row of lights where out at the indoor range today.

94 Score.

Pistol HK45c …. Stock night sights and so called horrible da/sa trigger.
I must be the only person who likes the stock trigger.

Had to put a Green Birchwood Casey Target Spot on to help me get a sight picture.
2933729338

[lwt16]

These work even better than using readers under your shooting glasses. Feels like cheating. You do have to work out where to attach them to your lens for your eye and shooting style:

https://www.amazon.com/Hydrotac-Magnifying-Magnifier-Koala-Magnification/dp/B06X9HQHZ8/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1534768440&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=hydrotac+stick+on+bifocal+lenses&psc=1

Neat.....I'll have to get some of those in 1.5 and try them out.

I greatly appreciate it. This will save me going to a specialist and having some created at high dollar pricing.

[M2CattleCo]

My transition back to a 1911 from Glock and Sig for years has showed me that a light, crisp trigger is a bitch to shoot. My 1911s back in the day were all setup with rolling break triggers and were supremely easy to shoot.

It's taken me a LOT of rounds to get my performance up to an acceptable level at the 25 yard line and I still think it takes a ridiculous amount of effort to shoot well. I have to use the trigger as a two stage or there is nothing even resembling a group.

IMO a (truly) crisp trigger is a handicap on a pistol.

[Doc_Glock]

My transition back to a 1911 from Glock and Sig for years has showed me that a light, crisp trigger is a bitch to shoot. My 1911s back in the day were all setup with rolling break triggers and were supremely easy to shoot.

It's taken me a LOT of rounds to get my performance up to an acceptable level at the 25 yard line and I still think it takes a ridiculous amount of effort to shoot well. I have to use the trigger as a two stage or there is nothing even resembling a group.

IMO a (truly) crisp trigger is a handicap on a pistol.

Interesting you should say this as I put 4,000 rounds through two 1911s with similar crisp triggers and was fairly shocked at how badly I shot them. Especially given how short the trigger travel is. TLG, mentions this as well in his Springfield 1911 endurance test.

I thought 1911s were supposed to the classic bullseye pistol?

[M2CattleCo]

Bullseye 1911s don't have crisp triggers.

As soon as I get an opportunity my 1911s are going to a good bullseye 'smith to have the triggers corrected.

[spinmove_]

Bullseye 1911s don't have crisp triggers.

As soon as I get an opportunity my 1911s are going to a good bullseye 'smith to have the triggers corrected.

If they don’t have crisp triggers, what kind of triggers do they have? If a crisp trigger isn’t conducive to shooting precisely with less effort, then why is it a desirable trait?

Not trying to be a smartass, I’m genuinely curious.


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[M2CattleCo]

Bullseye guns generally have rolling triggers. It's super smooth creep. I've always described it as a baby tiny double action trigger pull.

Super crisp trigger jobs are present on 1911s because they're easy to achieve, people expect it, and untrained/inexperienced shooters will generally do best with them.

$3K pistols are generally sold to people with more money than sense. Bullseye shooters and serious hangun guys are the outliers.

[JohnO]

Might as well add a little perspective on the process of doing it well and improving performance.

I’ve worked with a number of people helping them tighten their 25 yard groups. What I found to be the most helpful is getting them to understand proper sight alignment. http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter2.htm

I stress the difference between parallel and angular deviation. Stop looking back and forth from the target to the sights. Place the front sight on the target then concentrate on perfecting the sight alignment and maintaining it through the trigger break.

I will usually demo the difference between parallel and angular deviation by shooting up close (3 yards) then taking it back to 10 yards. I’ll fire a string at both distances while moving the pistol in a figure 8. Demonstrating that the group size doesn’t open up as long as the relationship between front and rear sight is maintained. Also shoot at both distances with improperly aligned sights to demonstrate how angular deviation degrades performance as distance increases. Often they get the hint that sight alignment is more important than sight picture especially as distance from the target increases.

Additionally I recommend dry fire and holding drills especially for folks with trigger control or anticipation issues.


https://youtu.be/FfARgCqWCvQ

You don’t have to do hours of dry fire every day. Even a couple of quality sessions a few times a week will reap benefits.

25 yard bullseye shooting is a mental exercise. Any loss of focus on the everything you must be doing correctly will be reflected on the target.

[Doc_Glock]

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter2.htm


I have read through that entire online document in the past and really found it helpful.

[Doc_Glock]

Bullseye guns generally have rolling triggers. It's super smooth creep. I've always described it as a baby tiny double action trigger pull.

Super crisp trigger jobs are present on 1911s because they're easy to achieve, people expect it, and untrained/inexperienced shooters will generally do best with them.

Thanks for explaining. I did not know any of that. I always assumed a 1911 was supposed to have the glass rod type trigger. A little take up, crisp break, little over travel, short reset.

[JHC]

Thanks for explaining. I did not know any of that. I always assumed a 1911 was supposed to have the glass rod type trigger. A little take up, crisp break, little over travel, short reset.

I have two 1911s with triggers set up by Dave Sams. One is a full build of his and the other a customized SA Operator. Both have very crisp triggers that break at 4-4.5 lbs. Sams is quite something in bullseye circles. I will ask him about that next time we speak.

Once I got heavily habituated to Glock triggers across many years it did get tricky to shoot 1911 triggers with precision. But with practice it came back.

[CalmlyDeMented]

I stress the difference between parallel and angular deviation. Stop looking back and forth from the target to the sights. Place the front sight on the target then concentrate on perfecting the sight alignment and maintaining it through the trigger break.

I will usually demo the difference between parallel and angular deviation by shooting up close (3 yards) then taking it back to 10 yards. I’ll fire a string at both distances while moving the pistol in a figure 8. Demonstrating that the group size doesn’t open up as long as the relationship between front and rear sight is maintained. Also shoot at both distances with improperly aligned sights to demonstrate how angular deviation degrades performance as distance increases. Often they get the hint that sight alignment is more important than sight picture especially as distance from the target increases.
Thank you, sir, for writing this. Solid gold there. I've read the AMU book before and been shooting a lot lately, but I never connected the dots on this. Didn't realize how much going back and forth between the aligned sights and the target was hurting my consistency.
Today, trusting my sight alignment, my accuracy and consistency at 25 yards and farther was much better. This was my cold start target: 10 rounds from 25 yards in 20 seconds, drawing from concealment.
Thanks again, much appreciated.

[lwt16]

29577

My new G41 in .45 ACP.

Really digging the little bit of extra sight radius this pistol offers up. This was my final target on about a 100-150 round session. Most of the others were 95s and 94s with 8 ring hits here and there. I finally settled down and printed a decent one at my skill level.

Factory Glock with Ameriglo Defoor sights that are actually for the 9/40 models. I read somewhere that the 10/45 Defoors printed high at 25 and rolled the dice with the 9/40 sizes. The slide is a 9/40 thickness anyway so I figured they would work. Six o'clock hold at the bottom of the black.

Ammo S&B 230 grain FMJ.

Very happy with this pistol so far. Slapping some Talon grips on when they arrive.

[45dotACP]

The Gen 5 G19 I've been shooting seems to like 115 gr lawman. Adding a RMR has made it much easier to shoot with groups like this being pretty commonplace at 25 yards. Just need to tighten the fliers. The trigger is stock presently and I like it pretty well especially because it's my carry gat. Chasing smaller groups with a 5.0lb firing pin spring might be counterproductive.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180828/df0c894c7126f1483e4317d825610e7e.jpg

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[richiecotite]

From a few night ago with mtnbkr

This is my gen4 17 with my “accuracy load”, a 5.7ish grains of power pistol and a 124 jhp.
One flyer that I knew was off after the break


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180902/c30bbc2d45df1186eaf09a07f7ec0034.jpg


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[lwt16]

29841

My first 100 (barely). Got super lucky on the one on the far right. Tore the paper just right.

This was my first, cold run. First 10 rounds of the day.

After that, shot one 99-1X and the rest mid 90s.

[WobblyPossum]

29841

My first 100 (barely). Got super lucky on the one on the far right. Tore the paper just right.

This was my first, cold run. First 10 rounds of the day.

After that, shot one 99-1X and the rest mid 90s.

Great shooting, especially cold and with an iron sighted pistol!

[lwt16]

Great shooting, especially cold and with an iron sighted pistol!

Thanks! I almost didn't even go today as my wife and I got back from a three day road trip late yesterday afternoon.

She got up and went to work......I moped around the house and actually had to drag myself out to go fire off some rounds. I wasn't expecting much as I am super tired from the road trip.

Had two B8 full size targets left and decided to post one since I figured I would miss the repair centers completely. Stapled one up, went back to the 25, and shot this right out the gate. Walked back down to the target and couldn't believe it.

And then I, of course, couldn't repeat it. lol

This new G41 is going to end up being my favorite. And that would figure since I am down to less than 250 rounds of S&B .45 ACP.

Regards.

[JHC]

Thanks! I almost didn't even go today as my wife and I got back from a three day road trip late yesterday afternoon.

She got up and went to work......I moped around the house and actually had to drag myself out to go fire off some rounds. I wasn't expecting much as I am super tired from the road trip.

Had two B8 full size targets left and decided to post one since I figured I would miss the repair centers completely. Stapled one up, went back to the 25, and shot this right out the gate. Walked back down to the target and couldn't believe it.

And then I, of course, couldn't repeat it. lol

This new G41 is going to end up being my favorite. And that would figure since I am down to less than 250 rounds of S&B .45 ACP.

Regards.

Fantastic shooting! I've been really impressed with S&B 230 grain ball across several cases of it.

[45dotACP]

Damn lwt that's some awesome shooting. Making me miss my .45 Glocks. For whatever reason they seem far more accurate than their europellet counterparts

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[ASH556]

30105

[JHC]

30105

Nice. Not too rusty! :D

[lwt16]

30148
My buddy's STI Edge in .40 caliber. He told me what he paid for this gun and I immediately handed it back to him. lol


30149

G41 with S&B


30150

I was tired and didn't think I'd do too well. My average was 96 percent out of about 100 rounds fired. I ran a Givens Rangemaster with the G41 and turned in a 295/300 with only one in the 8 ring.

Came home and was wiped out. I've worked 10 days straight with only last Sunday off. This range session was my only "down" time.

[lwt16]

30158

[Radar Love]

Managed to hit paper 8/10 times, which is much better than the first time I tried shooting my 642 at 25 yards and hit 0/10.

30273

[einherjarvalk]

The class I took recently has made me realize the important of 25 yard freestyle shooting and has transformed it from a novelty to the way I start and end my sessions. Progress is already noticeable; working toward consistent "pass" scores on the Kyle Defoor "hat qual." 10 rounds, 20 seconds, P30L V1.

30603

[lwt16]

30676

Cold. Afterwards, mid 90s with one 97.

I think my repair centers with the orange bulls are throwing me off. Makes me focus on that more than my front sight.

Ordering more B8 targets without the orange centers.

[DAVE_M]

It's ugly, but it's the first time I've shot in a while due to personal matters.

Didn't realize I fired 11 rounds until I took the photo ;)

11 rounds of Sig V-Crown 124 gr

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1980/44896054591_1d409dbb24_c.jpg

[45dotACP]

I don't usually do just a straight up 25 yard shooting session but that's what I did today and my focus was burned by the end of it. Accuracy being the name of the game, I brought my Caspian build.

Had to shoot off some handloads...they were semi hot. Probably close to 7grains of Power Pistol under a 230 gr SNS bullet. The empties are showing flat primers so I'll have to switch to a less punishing recipe. I also need to drift the sights...but damn do I realize the reason the 1911 has endured.

Also, focusing clearly on sight alignment instead of the sight picture has massively improved my distance shooting. If I can maintain sight focus, these five shot groups are standard...but Power Pistol being what it is, I get distracted easily by the flash, noise and recoil and have a hard time pressing the trigger cleanly.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180925/bc74d6b13ca111a0212a4acb81e26cc1.jpg

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[gomerpyle]

Dude were you at Mega Sports earlier today, lane 12 I believe, say 1130am? Was there any ugly asian shooting haplessly next to you in lane 11:)? Nice shooting! I was on your left, shooting my VP9:)


I don't usually do just a straight up 25 yard shooting session but that's what I did today and my focus was burned by the end of it. Accuracy being the name of the game, I brought my Caspian build.

Had to shoot off some handloads...they were semi hot. Probably close to 7grains of Power Pistol under a 230 gr SNS bullet. The empties are showing flat primers so I'll have to switch to a less punishing recipe. I also need to drift the sights...but damn do I realize the reason the 1911 has endured.

Also, focusing clearly on sight alignment instead of the sight picture has massively improved my distance shooting. If I can maintain sight focus, these five shot groups are standard...but Power Pistol being what it is, I get distracted easily by the flash, noise and recoil and have a hard time pressing the trigger cleanly.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180925/bc74d6b13ca111a0212a4acb81e26cc1.jpg

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[45dotACP]

Dude were you at Mega Sports earlier today, lane 12 I believe, say 1130am? Was there any ugly asian shooting haplessly next to you in lane 11:)? Nice shooting! I was on your left, shooting my VP9:)

That was me! Haha I saw a dude shooting a HK well and I was like "Wonder if this dude's on PF?"

You were shooting pretty damn good yourself man!

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[JohnO]

Also, focusing clearly on sight alignment instead of the sight picture has massively improved my distance shooting.

Absolutely! Do your best to Eliminate angular deviation. Some parallel deviation is acceptable and has far less effect at distance.

My last range trip. I went with the express goal of shooting a 100/100 and did it. I knew it was going to take plenty of concentration. Let your mental focus slip for a moment and then you print an 8. I know this all too well.

It's a little ugly but its a legit 100. I did what I set out to do and left on a high note.

30690

[Doc_Glock]

I do like when I can keep them all in the black. This is slow fire:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180928/c55bc8aec5fd729f03bcc8ead6bcfd41.jpg

Did a bunch of work from 25 yds today working on speed. Ranged from a 12 to 20 seconds. Worst score 59 with 3 misses in 12 seconds, best 86 clean in 15 seconds.

I think I want to work on the speed aspect of this skill a bunch more.

[JHC]

Absolutely! Do your best to Eliminate angular deviation. Some parallel deviation is acceptable and has far less effect at distance.

My last range trip. I went with the express goal of shooting a 100/100 and did it. I knew it was going to take plenty of concentration. Let your mental focus slip for a moment and then you print an 8. I know this all too well.

It's a little ugly but its a legit 100. I did what I set out to do and left on a high note.

30690

Fantastic. I know it may get redundant but . . . the gun again?

That focus for 10 consecutive is tough.

[JohnO]

Fantastic. I know it may get redundant but . . . the gun again?

That focus for 10 consecutive is tough.

Dan Wesson Valor with a few changes I prefer. 10-8 .156 notch rear sight (no I don't think a large aperture hurts accuracy), Harrison Custom short trigger, Ed Brown Arched Mainspring housing and VZ Alien standard thickness grips and associated bushings.

[JHC]

Dan Wesson Valor with a few changes I prefer. 10-8 .156 notch rear sight (no I don't think a large aperture hurts accuracy), Harrison Custom short trigger, Ed Brown Arched Mainspring housing and VZ Alien standard thickness grips and associated bushings.

Thank YOU!!! Is it always this Valor or do you shoot a few nice 1911s? I'll try to retain this.

[JohnO]

Thank YOU!!! Is it always this Valor or do you shoot a few nice 1911s? I'll try to retain this.

I have a couple Valors, a DW "Lightweight Commander" the DW custom shop built for me and a Ed Brown Executive Elite all configured identically. I have G21's that can do just as well.

[45dotACP]

I have a couple Valors, a DW "Lightweight Commander" the DW custom shop built for me and a Ed Brown Executive Elite all configured identically. I have G21's that can do just as well.Not surprised that the G21 can hang. The ones I've shot have been nothing short of phenomenal accuracy wise.

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[feudist]

[QUOTE

That focus for 10 consecutive is tough.[/QUOTE]

Speaking of which: Do y'all shoot all 10 from one presentation or raise it for each shot?

[45dotACP]

So...this notion of minimizing angular deviation is relatively new to me (because I'm thick skulled) but it has made distance shooting click in a huge way.

Shown below is some 20 yard shooting just to test the Kimber 9mm...which is fast becoming a favorite of mine. Once I get used to the trigger, I think it'll hold its own against my current stable of 1911s, but it seems the grip safety arm is slightly undercut and needs additional clearance. The trigger pull is somewhat variable because of that.

The three groups on the left are from a M&P9 and it's so mind-blowing how awesome an improvement the Apex barrel has been that I'm thinking very hard about replacing an older gen Glock with a TS M&P9.

That top left group I measured out to about 1.5 inches center to center and I suspect it's easily capable of better. The bottom left I yanked a flier and I suspect the sights need a slight drifting.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180928/f00ed8a096b7203acfde3a992b3ffc84.jpg

[rodralig]

After being bed-ridden for a few weeks, along with several visits to Urgent Care, etc. I couldn't restrain myself from pulling the trigger... Headed out to the range last night for some 5-inch GROUP therapy. 😅😜

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180929/344f499d9f731e96b80ed4dbb5db07a6.jpg

The Shoot-N-C is at 5-inches, and the 3-misses were under 8-inches (was using an IDPA silhouette).

Used 40-rds of factory 230GR CCI Blazer Brass...

Definitely still more work to do...

Cheers,


_

[lwt16]

[QUOTE

That focus for 10 consecutive is tough.

Speaking of which: Do y'all shoot all 10 from one presentation or raise it for each shot?[/QUOTE]

I raise for each shot.

[gomerpyle]

Speaking of which: Do y'all shoot all 10 from one presentation or raise it for each shot?

I shoot only 5 shots when shooting at 25 yards, but from one presentation.

[lwt16]

Went yesterday to help my son run a G26.3 and to check the sights on a P320 for a guy. After all that...and working 8 hours OT on my off day, I couldn't get anything going with my G41 so I just put it away. No sense in blowing through .45ACP when I can't do my part.

Did manage this target with the aforementioned P320. The guy that owns it said it hits high and left for him. She hits a bit right for me.

30923

Hoping to go back next week....I'm working a lot on my off days due to manpower but need to see some .45 brass laying on the deck.

Regards.

[JHC]

This was shot as individual singles from ready. 25 yards Times 1.43-1.8

Target was high chest. Definitely not the upper alpha. ;)

G43

31103

[JohnO]

Had a little father son competition yesterday. 25 yards with a Gen 5 G17 with the Ameriglow sights. Tape was my 17 year old son who shot a 1X 88. I let one get away in the 9 ring. I just knew I should have brought the gun down when I was loosing focus of the sights but I just let the shot go.

31106

He went on to shoot two consecutive 92's. He is right handed like me yet he tends to print like a lefty with a tendency to go low right. I need to keep him focused on the sights and started working in some Ball & Dummy work to monitor his follow through. His dry fire is stellar however I think he may be anticipating slightly with live fire or adding a little english with his support hand.

[Gio]

He went on to shoot two consecutive 92's. He is right handed like me yet he tends to print like a lefty with a tendency to go low right. I need to keep him focused on the sights and started working in some Ball & Dummy work to monitor his follow through. His dry fire is stellar however I think he may be anticipating slightly with live fire or adding a little english with his support hand.

With rounds just slightly low/right like on that target at 25, he is not flinching (unless there are hits off camera). A flinch would cause a significant miss on a bullseye target at that distance. At most, he may be stopping the trigger press and restarting it instead of pressing continuously straight through. If you put him on a ball and dummy drill you're going to make him think his post-ignition push is a flinch, which he may work to eliminate, thus hurting his ability to control recoil.

[JHC]

With rounds just slightly low/right like on that target at 25, he is not flinching (unless there are hits off camera). A flinch would cause a significant miss on a bullseye target at that distance. At most, he may be stopping the trigger press and restarting it instead of pressing continuously straight through. If you put him on a ball and dummy drill you're going to make him think his post-ignition push is a flinch, which he may work to eliminate, thus hurting his ability to control recoil.

Are you thinking maybe too much pressure into the frame from the support side?

[Gio]

Are you thinking maybe too much pressure into the frame from the support side?

That’s a possibility, but it’s hard to diagnose without seeing in person. Likely causes could be:

1. Inconsistent trigger press, I.e most likely not pressing straight back with constant increasing pressure.
2. Inconsistent grip pressure
3. The way he’s looking at/processing the sights.

The top one is by far the most common.

[lwt16]

31155

Only had yesterday off and I am seeing fatigue open up my groups.

Need to quit working so much OT and go shoot more. My dry fire sessions have not been what they should be either.

Too tired for dry practice also, I suppose.

Regards.

[lwt16]

31274

My son’s new VP9 with Federal 147 HST.

Had a couple of fail to return to battery with HST.

FMJ ran fine. We will see if a good break in is needed.

[WobblyPossum]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181014/3faf0239345acf01d31dc1f568b95576.jpg

Cold slow fire to start off the range session today. It turns out I’ve been printing out my repair centers using fit to page instead of actual size so my scoring rings are a tiny bit smaller than they should be. Depending on if you count the 9 in the right side that hit the taped holes as a 10 based on where the ring should be, this is either a 94 or a 95. Either way a personal best for me. I believe my prior best was a 93.

[DEG]

Three sets of ten rounds each @ 25 yards with a G19.5 using Lawman 115 grain. For each set, I had one round out and nine in the black. The last set was my best by just a smidge; but my eyes were struggling with the drive-the-dot hold Ameriglo sights. Maybe it's optic time!

31295

[JHC]

Continued study, learning to shoot the Gen 5 trigger. In my case, a G45. Numerous posts by GJM are echoing in my head about constant press vs staging to a wall, confirming sights, press through wall. His (and Gio's made the same point) about constant movement always interested me but I was so happy with results of staging to the Gen 3/4 wall then breaking the shot I didn't take to it.

This Gen 5 trigger is so smooth and rolling it compliments that technique, I think. Trying to shoot it like I have been shooting my earlier gen's is more of a struggle when shooting without time limits.

On this 25 yard exercise I shot 3 strings of 5 on the timer. Each string was shot from ready in 10-12 seconds with the timer set to a 12 sec par. Mentally, this seems to keep me pressing vs staging. This is teaching me stuff.


31316

[lwt16]

31565

Five string average was 97. Getting more consistent but can’t eek a 100 out again.

Qualifications are next month at work and I’m hoping to see tighter groups on the Q target.

[ubervic]

Great shooting in this thread.

With my middle-age eyesight, I’m lucky to consistently orient the Black within my sight picture, let alone keep hits within it!

[BN]

Today with my Beretta LTT Elite and 147 HST.

31577

[BN]

The 147 grain bullets had a slight right bias. I found some 115 grain PMC in the bag and it hit pretty much center.

31586

[Doc_Glock]

I burned up 45 rounds through the USPc LEM at 25 just emptying partial mags. Shooting when sights aligned not going particularly slowly, but steady.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181023/1f7f8a921bdd982c24b3bc00a2146fd2.jpg

I was pretty happy with that distribution.

[RyanM]

Continued study, learning to shoot the Gen 5 trigger. In my case, a G45. Numerous posts by GJM are echoing in my head about constant press vs staging to a wall, confirming sights, press through wall. His (and Gio's made the same point) about constant movement always interested me but I was so happy with results of staging to the Gen 3/4 wall then breaking the shot I didn't take to it.

This Gen 5 trigger is so smooth and rolling it compliments that technique, I think. Trying to shoot it like I have been shooting my earlier gen's is more of a struggle when shooting without time limits.

On this 25 yard exercise I shot 3 strings of 5 on the timer. Each string was shot from ready in 10-12 seconds with the timer set to a 12 sec par. Mentally, this seems to keep me pressing vs staging. This is teaching me stuff.


31316

I'm really curious about this. Is the trigger on your 45 that much different than other Glocks you've shot? Would you still stage the trigger on your 45 at closer distances and/or trying to make faster hits vs. just pulling straight through?

[JHC]

I'm really curious about this. Is the trigger on your 45 that much different than other Glocks you've shot? Would you still stage the trigger on your 45 at closer distances and/or trying to make faster hits vs. just pulling straight through?


The staging at the "wall" is only a technique for making a slower precision shot. Not everyone's technique, maybe not the optimal technique. But it was the method I used on the pistols with a pronounced wall.
I don't use that on speed drilling.


But yeah, it has surprised me how different this trigger is compared to all the Glocks I've shot about 90K rounds through, 75K since 2010. It is smoother with no drags and hitches and it's rolling break (which I had said I hadn't found in other Glocks just a couple months ago) is qualitatively quite different. Sunday I shot this G45 after 50 rounds function checking a Gen 4 G19 with a "dot" connector. The difference was quite noticeable.

[RyanM]

The staging at the "wall" is only a technique for making a slower precision shot. Not everyone's technique, maybe not the optimal technique. But it was the method I used on the pistols with a pronounced wall.
I don't use that on speed drilling.


But yeah, it has surprised me how different this trigger is compared to all the Glocks I've shot about 90K rounds through, 75K since 2010. It is smoother with no drags and hitches and it's rolling break (which I had said I hadn't found in other Glocks just a couple months ago) is qualitatively quite different. Sunday I shot this G45 after 50 rounds function checking a Gen 4 G19 with a "dot" connector. The difference was quite noticeable.

Interesting. Thanks for the response!

[Clusterfrack]

Yesterday, I shot Bill drills at 25yds. My times ranged from 4.15 to 4.5s, down at most 3Cs. I'm chasing Ben Stoeger's par of 4s, and getting close.

I think I’m getting more relaxed in my strong hand, and that’s making a big difference.

(Shadow2, Production rig)

[MGW]

The staging at the "wall" is only a technique for making a slower precision shot. Not everyone's technique, maybe not the optimal technique. But it was the method I used on the pistols with a pronounced wall.
I don't use that on speed drilling.


But yeah, it has surprised me how different this trigger is compared to all the Glocks I've shot about 90K rounds through, 75K since 2010. It is smoother with no drags and hitches and it's rolling break (which I had said I hadn't found in other Glocks just a couple months ago) is qualitatively quite different. Sunday I shot this G45 after 50 rounds function checking a Gen 4 G19 with a "dot" connector. The difference was quite noticeable.

I notice the same thing with the 19x. Have you shot a 19x to compare it to the 45? I have 4 Gen 5 Glocks in my possession now, 19x, 19.5, 17.5, 34.5 with the front serrations, and the 19x has the best trigger out of any of them. At this point it wouldn't bother me to get rid of either the 34 or 17 and picking up another 19x.

[JHC]

I notice the same thing with the 19x. Have you shot a 19x to compare it to the 45? I have 4 Gen 5 Glocks in my possession now, 19x, 19.5, 17.5, 34.5 with the front serrations, and the 19x has the best trigger out of any of them. At this point it wouldn't bother me to get rid of either the 34 or 17 and picking up another 19x.



Shooting my son's 19X is what gave me the "a ha" moment. His gun's trigger made up my mind to get one; just the timing of the 45's arrival led me to it instead. The one of each I've shot and the half dozen or so of each I've dry fired in the LGS indicate they are the same.


Last year I owned an early 19.5 about two weeks. It was not like these 19X/45.

[jetfire]

Yesterday, I shot Bill drills at 25yds. My times ranged from 4.15 to 4.5s, down at most 3Cs. I'm chasing Ben Stoeger's par of 4s, and getting close.

I think I’m getting more relaxed in my strong hand, and that’s making a big difference.

(Shadow2, Production rig)

One of the most important things to remember about shooting multiple shot strings at distance is that each shot needs to be its own event. It’s really easy when you’re shooting a bill drill on a par time to just shoot on a cadence. At 7 you can get away with that, at 25 yards the cadence will always result in dropped shots.

[BN]

Gen 4 G-26, 147 HST. 11 rounds because that is what was in the gun when I took it out of my pocket. ;)

31642

[Clusterfrack]

One of the most important things to remember about shooting multiple shot strings at distance is that each shot needs to be its own event. It’s really easy when you’re shooting a bill drill on a par time to just shoot on a cadence. At 7 you can get away with that, at 25 yards the cadence will always result in dropped shots.

I agree. A 1.5s draw, and 0.5s splits will result in a 4s total. That’s just enough time (in theory [emoji3]) to get a sight picture and controlled trigger press.

[GuanoLoco]

I agree. A 1.5s draw, and 0.5s splits will result in a 4s total. That’s just enough time (in theory [emoji3]) to get a sight picture and controlled trigger press.

Dot Drill on a 2" dot at 7 yards in 5.0s is hard - and roughly equivalent to an 8" circle at 28 yards.

Bill Drill on a USPSA 6"x11" lower A-zone at 25 yards in 4.0s is even harder....

[EJO]

I purchased an early 19.5 from one of our forum members. I intended to send it to Mark and have it milled for an RMR. I decided to throw a set of spare bold sights on it and hit the range today.

This is the first two 10 shot strings. I don’t record the time anymore unless I go over the 30 second mark.

I’ve owned gen2, gen3 and gen4 19s and I’m still amazed at how accurate the gen5 19 is.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181025/6ecaa81682b49545dbfca10f87ea8355.jpg

I knew the moment I pulled the trigger I dropped that one low and left.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181025/2b534bbe308f17001e7c83021a9172cb.jpg



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[JBP55]

Good Shooting Evan O.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I haven't been to the range in too long (a few months), but went with my dad today so that he could get some shooting in with a couple of new acquisitions.

Since my agency quals are coming up in a couple of weeks, I thought I'd go for broke.

10 rounds 124+P GDHPs, cold, freestyle, from the Sig P250c 9mm on my hip (carry/duty gun):

31722

Not near as good as most of y'all, but my 25 yard shooting is normally braced, and the orange ProGlo front sight is as big and as fuzzy as the bull for me.

I need to tighten it up, but being closer to 50 than 49, I'll take it for now. I actually though I'd pulled one or two off more than that.

[EJO]

Good Shooting Evan O.

Thanks JBP!

[EJO]

I haven't been to the range in too long (a few months), but went with my dad today so that he could get some shooting in with a couple of new acquisitions.

Since my agency quals are coming up in a couple of weeks, I thought I'd go for broke.

10 rounds 124+P GDHPs, cold, freestyle, from the Sig P250c 9mm on my hip (carry/duty gun):

31722

Not near as good as most of y'all, but my 25 yard shooting is normally braced, and the orange ProGlo front sight is as big and as fuzzy as the bull for me.

I need to tighten it up, but being closer to 50 than 49, I'll take it for now. I actually though I'd pulled one or two off more than that.

Stick with it Chuck you’ll get there. Lots of dry fire helps too.

[lwt16]

Not near as good as most of y'all, but my 25 yard shooting is normally braced, and the orange ProGlo front sight is as big and as fuzzy as the bull for me.

I need to tighten it up, but being closer to 50 than 49, I'll take it for now. I actually though I'd pulled one or two off more than that.

I quit utilizing the barricade several years ago during our qualifications. I found that getting my grip, stance, and shoulders rolled back and locked in place afforded me much better 25 yard performance than relying on the barricade.

Granted, I am like the only one at quals that doesn't press up to the barricade at the 25. We only do 5 rounds standing and then 5 kneeling at 25. 50 seconds from the draw on a standard Q target.

When I started this drill, my groups were similar to yours. I focused more on trigger control and a "surprise" break of the shot without changing anything else and my groups got better and better. I then added a front sight focus (which was hard for me and my 48 year old eyes) and those two things got me hitting all ten in the black.

Learning to just let the shot break instead of "ambushing" the trigger when that sight pic was perfect allowed me to find the X ring and 10 ring. I was sort of shocked how "off" my sights could wobble and as long as I pressed the trigger clean, it had less of an affect on my hits than "ambushing" the trigger.

Just some thoughts on what worked for me. I can get similar performance now no matter what type of sights the pistol has.

Regards.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Stick with it Chuck you’ll get there. Lots of dry fire helps too.

I really do need to get in more regular dry practice.


I quit utilizing the barricade several years ago during our qualifications. I found that getting my grip, stance, and shoulders rolled back and locked in place afforded me much better 25 yard performance than relying on the barricade.

Granted, I am like the only one at quals that doesn't press up to the barricade at the 25. We only do 5 rounds standing and then 5 kneeling at 25. 50 seconds from the draw on a standard Q target.

To clarify, this was at the local indoor range, and at 25 I usually sit on a stool and brace elbows on the table/shelf in the lane to check sights. I agree with you about the barricade.

[ASH556]

struggled today. everything was left.

https://i.imgur.com/YAvI21bl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/CpkJJNPl.jpg

[EJO]

Ash,

Not sure what type of pistol you're running, one thing I learned from Paul Howe, too much grip can cause rounds left. I run a Glock 19 and always thought I did not need a back strap. I wear medium sized gloves and always considered my hands small. When Paul suggested I try the medium back strap I thought he was nuts. Turns out I thought it wouldn't make a difference, but in all actuality it's one of the things that improved my shooting. Just a thought.

[RJ]

Ash,

Not sure what type of pistol you're running, one thing I learned from Paul Howe, too much grip can cause rounds left. I run a Glock 19 and always thought I did not need a back strap. I wear medium sized gloves and always considered my hands small. When Paul suggested I try the medium back strap I thought he was nuts. Turns out I thought it wouldn't make a difference, but in all actuality it's one of the things that improved my shooting. Just a thought.

That’s pretty interesting. Size M hands here, and I persistently shoot low and away, especially on multiple follow up shots.

I will have to give this a try. Thanks.

[EJO]

It isn't a be all end all but it does help. I've been doing it since my gen4 and continue to do it with the gen5. Honestly I don't like the way it looks and I never thought it "felt" right but when put to live fire, it works for me.

[jetfire]

I was the range yesterday and decided to walk it back to 50 yards and do some standing offhand. The results were solid, since I haven’t shot at real long ranges in a while.


https://www.facebook.com/299766770066727/posts/2043444682365585/

Beretta 92 with American Eagle 147 grain, and for a better shot of the target here’s this:

31924

Obviously 20-something seconds is basically an eternity, so I had all the time in the world to clean up my sight picture and fuck with my grip in between shots. If I was seriously training for Bianchi Cup the par time is 6 shots in 15 seconds, which is a lot less time and I have to take better steps to manage recoil.

[JohnO]

I was the range yesterday and decided to walk it back to 50 yards and do some standing offhand. The results were solid, since I haven’t shot at real long ranges in a while.


https://www.facebook.com/299766770066727/posts/2043444682365585/

Beretta 92 with American Eagle 147 grain, and for a better shot of the target here’s this:

31924

Obviously 20-something seconds is basically an eternity, so I had all the time in the world to clean up my sight picture and fuck with my grip in between shots. If I was seriously training for Bianchi Cup the par time is 6 shots in 15 seconds, which is a lot less time and I have to take better steps to manage recoil.

Excellent work! From the looks of your picture you were shooting COM on a backer. Some might prefer a high contrast reference point to use as an aiming point. There you have to be careful what you ask for because the urge to perfect a sight picture may outweigh sight alignment. Good solid sight alignment and a trigger press that does not disturb the sights wins every time as evidenced in your target.

[Clusterfrack]

Sighting my practice Shadow2 at 25. Looks like it’s drifted a bit high.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181101/ee21539b3fc0c93f7d8b0970207ef062.jpg

[jetfire]

Excellent work! From the looks of your picture you were shooting COM on a backer. Some might prefer a high contrast reference point to use as an aiming point. There you have to be careful what you ask for because the urge to perfect a sight picture may outweigh sight alignment. Good solid sight alignment and a trigger press that does not disturb the sights wins every time as evidenced in your target.

I’d much rather shoot at something like a B8 or an NRA Action Pistol target at 50 yards than a plain IDPA target. The high contrast reference point makes getting hits easier. I just happened to have nothing but IDPA targets at the range yesterday.

[JohnO]

I’d much rather shoot at something like a B8 or an NRA Action Pistol target at 50 yards than a plain IDPA target. The high contrast reference point makes getting hits easier. I just happened to have nothing but IDPA targets at the range yesterday.

I completely understand. However for some it is a double edged sword. They think it is easier yet they get obsessed with sight picture at the expense of sight alignment which negatively impacts outcome.

[thward89]

Best I could manage today with the P30 V4.1. Had some guy doing mag dumps at 7 beside me the whole time which made concentration difficult. Called 2 of the three fliers to the left as soon as I broke the shots.

[lwt16]

31935

31936

Second target was 25 rounds from 25 yards. I’m trying that at my club range when I can’t walk down and put up fresh targets as a courtesy to other members firing.

Don’t want to be “that guy” who asks to go cold ten times an hour. Lol

[lwt16]

32049

32050

Moved it to the 50. Going to start working on that now.

And ignore “127 grain”......124 fmj Speer factory seconds.

[JHC]

I was the range yesterday and decided to walk it back to 50 yards and do some standing offhand. The results were solid, since I haven’t shot at real long ranges in a while.


https://www.facebook.com/299766770066727/posts/2043444682365585/

Beretta 92 with American Eagle 147 grain, and for a better shot of the target here’s this:

31924

Obviously 20-something seconds is basically an eternity, so I had all the time in the world to clean up my sight picture and fuck with my grip in between shots. If I was seriously training for Bianchi Cup the par time is 6 shots in 15 seconds, which is a lot less time and I have to take better steps to manage recoil.

SPECTACULAR!!!

[babypanther]

This was a magazine with no time limit, setting the gun down after 5 round sets. My proudest moment was calling the miss low left as the shot left.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181107/b8cdcadf6bf0c6636c2aa9004c8aa1ba.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lwt16]

Looks like 2405 North Parkway's range, Babypanther. Good shooting!

I need to run by there one Tuesday and hang some B8s up. Haven't shot there in years.

Regards.

[SC_Dave]

Just bought a G17-5 MOS. Zeroed the RMR and shot the Dot Torture drill. Then shot this B8 slow fire freestyle at 25 yards. Best 25 yard target for me to date. I love the way this pistol shoots. Trigger is the best stock Glock trigger I've ever shot.

https://i.imgur.com/t63vlXt.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/gNewav8.jpg?1

[ASH556]

Just bought a G17-5 MOS. Zeroed the RMR and shot the Dot Torture drill. Then shot this B8 slow fire freestyle at 25 yards. Best 25 yard target for me to date. I love the way this pistol shoots. Trigger is the best stock Glock trigger I've ever shot.

https://i.imgur.com/t63vlXt.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/gNewav8.jpg?1

Man, NICE!

[JHC]

Man, NICE!

What he said!

[babypanther]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181121/d605dfa09e25a7320c32c4f21bbfcc6d.jpg
G22.4 with my birthday presents, a KKM 40-9mm barrel and Dawson adjustable black rears with a FO FS. I’d say it’s a winning combo.


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[ASH556]

Long post warning:

My last range session a couple weeks back had my 25yd groups just in the gutter. In thinking, my G17 was about 1,200 rounds dirty, so I decided to see if a good cleaning would tighten things up again. It seems to have worked, although I think I uncovered another issue. I don't know if it's just the lighting or if my eyes are starting to go. I took 100rds with me and was determined to confirm some things with myself and the gun come hell or high water.

I began with a B8 @ 25yds. Not so very good, especially since 90 or better (95 or better really) on-demand has become my de-facto personal standard:
https://i.imgur.com/zD5mwkjl.jpg

Hoping maybe I just needed to warm up or something, I gave it another go with even worse results:
https://i.imgur.com/ofZL2FCl.jpg

Grasping at straws I decided to change the target and went to a vertical 3x5. Black marks on all rounds on-target before pasting the 3x5. 3 red circles are from the 10-shot string, with the remaining 7 in a nice cluster on the card. In the immortal words of P.E. Kelley , "WooHoo!!!"
https://i.imgur.com/OaxOx8Cl.jpg

Having restored faith in my fundamentals, I gave the B8 another go with the worst results yet:
https://i.imgur.com/0VNZRn5l.jpg

I think somehow I just cannot see the contrast between the front sight and the target with the lighting they have to be able to consistently maintain a good hold.

Then, I decided to try a drill I'd been knocking around in my head for awhile: How far can you hold the 10? Turns out, not very far :( At least, not with this vision thing. The deal is, you fire 10 round groups standing freestyle @ 7, 10, 15, 20, and 25 yds. Here's what that looks like. I forgot to take a pic of the target with the 20yd stuff added before I shot the 25, but I do have the points down recorded and the eights were the cluster of 3 just to the left:

7yds (honestly, I even had trouble seeing the X-ring at this distance):
https://i.imgur.com/F3EEB4el.jpg

10yds
https://i.imgur.com/W6kRuFel.jpg

15yds
https://i.imgur.com/IoIdbxWl.jpg

Final target
https://i.imgur.com/hEdU0nel.jpg

[JohnO]

ASH556,

Perhaps you are putting too much emphasis on sight picture at the expense of sight alignment. Are you familiar with Parallel vs. Angular distortion? Perfecting sight alignment far outweighs sight picture. The key is to ignore the wobble and fire a shot that the axis of the bore is Parallel with the desired path to the target. The wobble looks worse as the distance to the target increases but it is deceptive because the wobble does not matter if the sights are aligned. However once the sights are misaligned the error increases as the distance increases.

Here are a few highlights I stress and come from here: http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter2.htm Time spent reviewing and digesting the material contained is the document is quite worthwhile.

Angular Shift Error: If the shooter does not observe correct aiming (maintaining the top surface of the centered front sight on a level with the top of the rear sight and equal light space on each side of the front sight) there will be few accurate shots. Most often, he locates the front sight in a different position In the rear notch. This accounts for a greater dispersion of shots on the target, since the bullets will deviate In the direction In which the front sight is positioned In the notch. This aiming error is known as angular shift error.

Parallel Shift Error: If the hold (arc of movement) is deviating In near parallel error from the center of the aiming area, the shooter should know that these deflections will not lower the score to the extent of angular shift error. Therefore, sight alignment is the most critical of the two. Thus, the accuracy of a shot depends mainly upon the shooter's ability to consistently maintain correct sight alignment. The main effort should be toward keeping your sights aligned, Holding the pistol perfectly still is desirable but It is not mandatory.

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/f2-4b.gif

Improper. Control of sight alignment is not precise. Distinct focus on target renders sight indistinct.

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/f2-4c.gif

Proper. Control alignment is precise. Focus limited to front sight only, renders the sights distinct and target indistinct and sight relationship can be controlled constantly.

It is imperative to maintain 'front slight point of focus" throughout the sighting and aiming of the pistol. The shooter must concentrate on maintaining the correct relationship between front and rear sight, and the point of focus must be on the front sight during the short period required to deliver the shot. If the focus is displaced forward, and the target is momentarily in clear focus, the ability of shooter to achieve correct sight alignment is jeopardized for that moment. Frequently, this is the moment that the pistol fires. A controlled, accurate shot is impossible under these conditions.

CONCENTRATION.

If the sights are incorrectly aligned, the net result is an inaccurate shot. Carelessness in obtaining correct sight alignment can usually be traced to the shooter's failure to realize its importance. Many shooters will, in the initial phase of holding, line up the sights in a perfect manner. However, as the firing progresses, and the shooter is concentrating on delivering the shot, he often loses correct sight alignment which he attained in the initial phase of his hold. Usually, when the shooter is unable to maintain a pln-point hold, his concentration on sight alignment wavers. An accurate shot is lost because the shooter is thinking of his arc of movement and not the perfection of sight alignment.

[Kevin B.]

Shot this target on the Bullseye CoF I typically use as a warm-up. I was well on my way to cleaning it when I pulled one high on my first string of five in fifteen seconds. 😡 Still my best performance to date.

32613

[GJM]

ASH556,

Perhaps you are putting too much emphasis on sight picture at the expense of sight alignment. Are you familiar with Parallel vs. Angular distortion? Perfecting sight alignment far outweighs sight picture. The key is to ignore the wobble and fire a shot that the axis of the bore is Parallel with the desired path to the target. The wobble looks worse as the distance to the target increases but it is deceptive because the wobble does not matter if the sights are aligned. However once the sights are misaligned the error increases as the distance increases.

Here are a few highlights I stress and come from here: http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter2.htm Time spent reviewing and digesting the material contained is the document is quite worthwhile.

Angular Shift Error: If the shooter does not observe correct aiming (maintaining the top surface of the centered front sight on a level with the top of the rear sight and equal light space on each side of the front sight) there will be few accurate shots. Most often, he locates the front sight in a different position In the rear notch. This accounts for a greater dispersion of shots on the target, since the bullets will deviate In the direction In which the front sight is positioned In the notch. This aiming error is known as angular shift error.

Parallel Shift Error: If the hold (arc of movement) is deviating In near parallel error from the center of the aiming area, the shooter should know that these deflections will not lower the score to the extent of angular shift error. Therefore, sight alignment is the most critical of the two. Thus, the accuracy of a shot depends mainly upon the shooter's ability to consistently maintain correct sight alignment. The main effort should be toward keeping your sights aligned, Holding the pistol perfectly still is desirable but It is not mandatory.

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/f2-4b.gif

Improper. Control of sight alignment is not precise. Distinct focus on target renders sight indistinct.

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/f2-4c.gif

Proper. Control alignment is precise. Focus limited to front sight only, renders the sights distinct and target indistinct and sight relationship can be controlled constantly.

It is imperative to maintain 'front slight point of focus" throughout the sighting and aiming of the pistol. The shooter must concentrate on maintaining the correct relationship between front and rear sight, and the point of focus must be on the front sight during the short period required to deliver the shot. If the focus is displaced forward, and the target is momentarily in clear focus, the ability of shooter to achieve correct sight alignment is jeopardized for that moment. Frequently, this is the moment that the pistol fires. A controlled, accurate shot is impossible under these conditions.

CONCENTRATION.

If the sights are incorrectly aligned, the net result is an inaccurate shot. Carelessness in obtaining correct sight alignment can usually be traced to the shooter's failure to realize its importance. Many shooters will, in the initial phase of holding, line up the sights in a perfect manner. However, as the firing progresses, and the shooter is concentrating on delivering the shot, he often loses correct sight alignment which he attained in the initial phase of his hold. Usually, when the shooter is unable to maintain a pln-point hold, his concentration on sight alignment wavers. An accurate shot is lost because the shooter is thinking of his arc of movement and not the perfection of sight alignment.

Pretty strong argument for the RDS!

[JHC]

Shot this target on the Bullseye CoF I typically use as a warm-up. I was well on my way to cleaning it when I pulled one high on my first string of five in fifteen seconds. 😡 Still my best performance to date.

32613

Dag gum!

[thward89]

32648
Took my dad shooting and decided to shoot a group with the HK P30 V4.1. I am always impressed with how well this gun shoots.

[HCM]

Shot this target on the Bullseye CoF I typically use as a warm-up. I was well on my way to cleaning it when I pulled one high on my first string of five in fifteen seconds. 😡 Still my best performance to date.

32613


https://youtu.be/-u9zr6oF4uA

[lwt16]

32785

32786

Haven’t been in a while and was pushing left bad.

Not enough dry fire either.

[lwt16]

32966

[ubervic]

I'm getting sick of this STELLAR shooting! ;)

[lwt16]

I'm getting sick of this STELLAR shooting! ;)

It was my only decent target out of ten attempts. Everything seemed to be against me.

First, it was cold....and windy...and blowing right in my direction which caused my eyes to water real bad. Watery eyes are not conducive to focusing on the front sight. I was also at my club range which has overhead covers. That was blocking good sunlight from hitting my front sight. I would get 8 or 9 solid blacks and then throw one or two in the 7 ring or 8 ring.

I took a break and tried some reloads from a guy that worked up some powder puff rounds and his P220 wouldn't cycle them. Everything was going fine and then I had one that he must have screwed up because it sounded like a grenade went off and the recoil was punishing. It didn't blow the mag out but I stopped, made clear, and checked the Glock 41 real good for damage. I went back to the S&B factory stuff and REALLY had to find my happy zone to not throw shots after that experience.

I moved just a bit forward where the sun would hit the front blade and focused on that sight even in between shots. I didn't take my eyes off that sight until that 10th shot had been triggered and got that target.

I had also taken a break in between boxes (2) of .45 and ran my new Tac 14 hardwood with bird and buck shot so I am sure that was a mistake when I went back and tried to all black B8s.

[JHC]

It was my only decent target out of ten attempts. Everything seemed to be against me.

First, it was cold....and windy...and blowing right in my direction which caused my eyes to water real bad. Watery eyes are not conducive to focusing on the front sight. I was also at my club range which has overhead covers. That was blocking good sunlight from hitting my front sight. I would get 8 or 9 solid blacks and then throw one or two in the 7 ring or 8 ring.

I took a break and tried some reloads from a guy that worked up some powder puff rounds and his P220 wouldn't cycle them. Everything was going fine and then I had one that he must have screwed up because it sounded like a grenade went off and the recoil was punishing. It didn't blow the mag out but I stopped, made clear, and checked the Glock 41 real good for damage. I went back to the S&B factory stuff and REALLY had to find my happy zone to not throw shots after that experience.

I moved just a bit forward where the sun would hit the front blade and focused on that sight even in between shots. I didn't take my eyes off that sight until that 10th shot had been triggered and got that target.

I had also taken a break in between boxes (2) of .45 and ran my new Tac 14 hardwood with bird and buck shot so I am sure that was a mistake when I went back and tried to all black B8s.

Any reports on running the TAC14 would be so much fun. Just sayin' :D

[lwt16]

Any reports on running the TAC14 would be so much fun. Just sayin' :D

I'll try to do one in the shotgun section.....er......12 gauge firearm section.

[BN]

33188

LTT Elite 115 S&B

[BK14]

Sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread. I know that when shooting at distance, you need a hard focus on the front sight.

When shooting with a red dot at distance, are you guys using a modified technique, or still just both eyes open, target focus?

[Doc_Glock]

Had a good day with the 19X this week.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181213/06c47289c82c925f30c44d0122344a53.jpg

[JHC]

Had a good day with the 19X this week.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181213/06c47289c82c925f30c44d0122344a53.jpg

You sure did! Great shooting. Did you hold on the X or use a 6:00 hold? Are those OEM sights or aftermarket?

[Doc_Glock]

You sure did! Great shooting. Did you hold on the X or use a 6:00 hold? Are those OEM sights or aftermarket?

OEM Glock Night sights (I actually dislike the finish on them). Held just like the sharpie mark on the target: across the X. 115 grain S&B FMJ which the gun obviously likes.

[JHC]

OEM Glock Night sights (I actually dislike the finish on them). Held just like the sharpie mark on the target: across the X. 115 grain S&B FMJ which the gun obviously likes.

Ah very nice. I've got those sights on both my G45 and 19X and don't feel compelled to change them yet. I mean not perfect but serviceable for sure. But yeah, across the X, that's how my 19X with these OEM sights impact also. Maybe not into that good a group of ten yet though. ;)

[Doc_Glock]

Ah very nice. I've got those sights on both my G45 and 19X and don't feel compelled to change them yet. I mean not perfect but serviceable for sure. But yeah, across the X, that's how my 19X with these OEM sights impact also. Maybe not into that good a group of ten yet though. ;)

I keep wondering if I can sharpie them or something because they are just so shiny, I don't like it. And the front sight nearly fills the entire width of the rear which makes them a little slow for me, but evidently they are pretty precise.

[BK14]

This past weekend I shot a little over 1000 rounds with my new Glock 34.5 with an RMR in Bill Blower’s Tac Pistol Class, with almost all those rounds being shot at a B8. While the distance varied, the emphasis on accuracy, and trigger control did not.

A few months ago when I first started shooting B8s at 25 I was happy if I could keep everything on the repair center. I picked up this new gun last week and first time with an RMR, I was stoked to see most of my shots stay within the 7/8 ring.

Well, today when I went back out to throw some rounds at 25. First group was slightly off windage, but mostly all in the 9/10 in 14 seconds. Second group was the first time I’ve held all black, and I shot a 95.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181218/420f360a0ed257628c83271aa286060b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181218/8ba3ea1a78d7b77bd3c8e5c6f53c596c.jpg

Moral of the story: Shooting a ton of rounds at a B8 with a really high standard for accuracy completely changed my perspective of shooting and made me better. Eye opening. New equipment helped, but the biggest thing was getting proper training from a dude that knows what’s up and is actually pushing the envelope of performance himself.

[HCM]

Found Shoot N C B8 stickers on Amazon.

Best of the day, 97/1x, Dan Wesson Valor .45 and federal synth-tec 230 grain coated. The gun shoots to a Drive the dot hold but otherwise I have no complaints.

33335

[ubervic]

All you guys posting range results in this thread absolutely suck at shooting.........said no one ever. :D

[JHC]

Found Shoot N C B8 stickers on Amazon.

Best of the day, 97/1x, Dan Wesson Valor .45 and federal synth-tec 230 grain coated. The gun shoots to a Drive the dot hold but otherwise I have no complaints.

33335

That is great having to "drive the dot"! That's how my LBO is sighted. I intend to remedy that in 2019 with some different sights.

[lwt16]

33342

New spotting scope for 49th bday.

33343

97-3X with G41 at 25

33344

Holding the 7 ring at the 50 yard line. This is where I am going to focus on in 2019. I gotta get some B6 targets ordered. Apparently, those have a black 8 ring and might be easier to see at the 50 yard line.

Regards.

[HCM]

33342

New spotting scope for 49th bday.

33343

97-3X with G41 at 25

33344

Holding the 7 ring at the 50 yard line. This is where I am going to focus on in 2019. I gotta get some B6 targets ordered. Apparently, those have a black 8 ring and might be easier to see at the 50 yard line.

Regards.

Not to thread drift too much but have you shot a G21 vs your 41 and if so how do the two compare ?

[lwt16]

Not to thread drift too much but have you shot a G21 vs your 41 and if so how do the two compare ?

I have. A guy at work (IT dude) bought a gen 3 G21 police trade in and asked me to look it over. I tore it down and cleaned it good and took it to the range. It had the OEM Glock night sights and if I remember correct, I printed a decent 25 yard group with it. I thought I posted that pic on here. I'll look and see if I did.

My G41 has Defoor sights on it and for my skills and eyes, I seem to print tighter groups with it. I would guess that if I had a G21 with Defoor sights, the groupings would be similar. My G41 is the only pistol I have ever shot a 100 with on a B8 target at 25 yards. I've come close with a couple of G17.4s. I've shot a pretty tight group with my G30s as well and I prefer the slimmer slides of the 41/30s.

On edit: Found it....post number 850 (page 85) of this thread. His trigger was just awful but I still managed a 94 with it. I only shot a few rounds through it so with a better trigger, Defoor sights, and S&B ammo I could probably turn in a high 90 with it.

[JHC]

I have. A guy at work (IT dude) bought a gen 3 G21 police trade in and asked me to look it over. I tore it down and cleaned it good and took it to the range. It had the OEM Glock night sights and if I remember correct, I printed a decent 25 yard group with it. I thought I posted that pic on here. I'll look and see if I did.

My G41 has Defoor sights on it and for my skills and eyes, I seem to print tighter groups with it. I would guess that if I had a G21 with Defoor sights, the groupings would be similar. My G41 is the only pistol I have ever shot a 100 with on a B8 target at 25 yards. I've come close with a couple of G17.4s. I've shot a pretty tight group with my G30s as well and I prefer the slimmer slides of the 41/30s.

On edit: Found it....post number 850 (page 85) of this thread. His trigger was just awful but I still managed a 94 with it. I only shot a few rounds through it so with a better trigger, Defoor sights, and S&B ammo I could probably turn in a high 90 with it.


The G41 is the only Glock .45 ACP I find interesting (once owned pretty cool RTF2 G21). That'd be a deer hammer with the +P Critical Duty load.

[lwt16]

The G41 is the only Glock .45 ACP I find interesting (once owned pretty cool RTF2 G21). That'd be a deer hammer with the +P Critical Duty load.

I love mine. I'd like to get a RMR one day and if I do, it will probably be another G41 to mount it on. I'm trying to put off a dot as long as possible.

Years ago when I was young, I was walking to a deer stand during doe days and walked up on a nice doe that was no more than 20 yards from me, standing sideways, and I had not placed my magazine in my Remington 30-06 self loader. I did, however, have a Springfield Armory dual tone full sized 1911 loaded with the Speer 200 grain flying ashtrays, cocked and locked, in a belt holster. One shot later she was lying just a few feet from where she soaked up that .45 round.

My uncle was married (at the time) to a woman who's family owned a ton of deer hunting land in Barbour county and she grew up cooking venison for her brothers. That night, she made the best meal (wild game wise) I ever had with the back straps of that doe.

[ASH556]

I love mine. I'd like to get a RMR one day and if I do, it will probably be another G41 to mount it on. I'm trying to put off a dot as long as possible.

Years ago when I was young, I was walking to a deer stand during doe days and walked up on a nice doe that was no more than 20 yards from me, standing sideways, and I had not placed my magazine in my Remington 30-06 self loader. I did, however, have a Springfield Armory dual tone full sized 1911 loaded with the Speer 200 grain flying ashtrays, cocked and locked, in a belt holster. One shot later she was lying just a few feet from where she soaked up that .45 round.

My uncle was married (at the time) to a woman who's family owned a ton of deer hunting land in Barbour county and she grew up cooking venison for her brothers. That night, she made the best meal (wild game wise) I ever had with the back straps of that doe.

Reminds me of the time I had a similar encounter while deer hunting in some thick planted pines. However, rather than a deer, it was a gray squirrel. He was on the same row as me and as they say in Southpark "Coming right for me." When he reached 10yds and still was apparently not turning aside I determined he must be a rabid gray squirrel and I promptly put a 230gr GDHP right between his eyes from my Para GI Expert :rolleyes: . Saved my life.

[BN]

These were all shot at 23 yards because that's where I could keep my sights in the shade. So subtract 8% of the awesomeness. LOL

These are all old Glock 17's. After I got the lens implant in my right eye, several of my pistols were showing a left bias to the hits. (even the non Glocks.) LOL I think my vision changed a little. For the last 2 days I have been tweaking sights and shooting groups. Here's the results. These are all high round count guns. At one time HU5xx was the only Glock I had and it was my main match and practice gun for several years. I believe it has close to 100,000 rounds through it.

3335833359
3336033361
33362

[Will_H]

Finally getting off my ass and participating in this thread after reading and reading for some time. i ordered some B8 targets on Amazon, went out to the range i just joined out here and shot both the M&P22 to get it properly sighted in and the VP9 I carry.

First off, the .22. Shooting 40 gr Aguila I shot at this probably 11-12 rounds per mag, so the scores are going to be artificially high vs 10 shot groups:

33437

I couldn't get the adjustable rear sight low enough for even a six o'clock hold, with the top of the front sight on the bottom of the 9 ring at 25 yards. Well, at least .22LR is cheap and I learned a few things.

Next is an 11 shot group at 25 yards. I subtracted from 100 and marked the score before I realized I sneaked in an extra round:

33438

Attempt #2 at 25 yards with the VP9, driving the dot on stock sights, and a real 10 shot group:

33439

Attempt #3 was not as successful, but a broken clock is right twice a day:

33441

I had to relax in the middle of some of these strings of fire to let my shoulders unwind. I shot about 3-4 shots at a time and tried not to look at the target until I had shot the whole string (remembering Darryl and Wayne's remarks to focus on the front sight). I finished off the day with some LVPO carbine work from a bench and plinking steel with the pistols at 25-50 yards. The B8 practice made that significantly easier and more fun. West Texas does have some great ranges, and I will be contributing more to this thread in the future.

[thward89]

Really starting to like the P10C.

33585

33586

33587

[ASH556]

Well, I can't say much for the placement of the group, but very pleased with the overall size and shape:

https://i.imgur.com/6kdFUHil.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/DlXrbMnl.jpg

[ASH556]

Admittedly I havn't read through this entire thread but I saw this article by Tim Herron that I thought I'd share

https://www.unitedgungroup.com/news/2016/11/21/tim-herron/

Basically he shows in order to shoot a 3 inch group at 25 yards you need to be able to shoot a one hole group at 7 yards.

I missed this the first go-round, but this is good insight!

[HCM]

I have. A guy at work (IT dude) bought a gen 3 G21 police trade in and asked me to look it over. I tore it down and cleaned it good and took it to the range. It had the OEM Glock night sights and if I remember correct, I printed a decent 25 yard group with it. I thought I posted that pic on here. I'll look and see if I did.

My G41 has Defoor sights on it and for my skills and eyes, I seem to print tighter groups with it. I would guess that if I had a G21 with Defoor sights, the groupings would be similar. My G41 is the only pistol I have ever shot a 100 with on a B8 target at 25 yards. I've come close with a couple of G17.4s. I've shot a pretty tight group with my G30s as well and I prefer the slimmer slides of the 41/30s.

On edit: Found it....post number 850 (page 85) of this thread. His trigger was just awful but I still managed a 94 with it. I only shot a few rounds through it so with a better trigger, Defoor sights, and S&B ammo I could probably turn in a high 90 with it.

Thanks. I just picked up a used G41. It was a red label so it came with the factory minus connector, Orange HD sights (same as my work gun) and the sandpaper talon stick on grip tape.Ive only gotten to shoot it out to 15 yards so far. I'm hoping to try some B8's at 25 this weekend. HD's are not the best for shooting B8s but they are not the worst and will give some cross over training value in relation to my work gun.

[lwt16]

33710

Best target of the day. Been slacking on the dry fire and I could really tell it on the cold target. Pushed left on 6/10 rounds into the 8 ring.

Ran a similar looking target with my Smith and Wesson 66 with .38 special semi wad cutters.

Ordered some B6 50 yard targets. Focusing on that in 2019 along with some other things.

Happy New Year to all.

[hossb7]

Shot my Shield for groups. Apex guts with Ameriglo CAP sights shooting American Eagle 115gr:

https://i.imgur.com/uZcQxLG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hwY68QH.jpg

[ASH556]

Man, this G45 is something else. 2.5” at 25yd freestyle with 115 Fiocchi. I think I feel ok about calling Dawson and asking for a taller front sight now. Group looks centered on the 8 ring, so 4” high from the center of the “x.”

33886

[lwt16]

Man, this G45 is something else. 2.5” at 25yd freestyle with 115 Fiocchi. I think I feel ok about calling Dawson and asking for a taller front sight now. Group looks centered on the 8 ring, so 4” high from the center of the “x.”

]

Must resist a marksman barrel/Gen5.....

I'm supposed to be buying ammo and targets only this year.

[JohnO]

I made it to the range on Jan 1 with my two sons (25 & 17). My oldest was home for the holidays from California. He had his CA compliant G19 gen 3 with a Surefire X300 along for the visit. He is permitted in CT & CA. I primarily was letting the boys shoot and offering some coaching tips. My son asked me to see what I could do with his Glock at 25 yards which we set up at. I don't ever recall shooting a G19 for a 10 round group or ever shooting anything with a light attached. Shot cold and had not done and shooting since before Thanksgiving. 115 gn. Fiocchi.

33893

[ASH556]

I made it to the range on Jan 1 with my two sons (25 & 17). My oldest was home for the holidays from California. He had his CA compliant G19 gen 3 with a Surefire X300 along for the visit. He is permitted in CT & CA. I primarily was letting the boys shoot and offering some coaching tips. My son asked me to see what I could do with his Glock at 25 yards which we set up at. I don't ever recall shooting a G19 for a 10 round group or ever shooting anything with a light attached. Shot cold and had not done and shooting since before Thanksgiving. 115 gn. Fiocchi.

33893

Damn man, just go and steal all my thunder! ;)

VERY good shooting!

[JohnO]

Damn man, just go and steal all my thunder! ;)

VERY good shooting!

Right back at Ya! Nice target. The group size speaks for itself.

My 17-year-old son shot a couple groups in the low 90's at 25 with a gen 5 17. He has a tendency to string them vertically however his windage control is tight. I tell him to be more concerned with the group size as compared to where it is on the target. Once you master the size it's easy to tweak the location.

[ASH556]

Right back at Ya! Nice target. The group size speaks for itself.

My 17-year-old son shot a couple groups in the low 90's at 25 with a gen 5 17. He has a tendency to string them vertically however his windage control is tight. I tell him to be more concerned with the group size as compared to where it is on the target. Once you master the size it's easy to tweak the location.

I’m only just over 200 rds into the G45 but I saw some of that vertical stringing today. Not sure exactly what it is, but I’m guessing something trigger related.

33894

[LSP552]

I’m only just over 200 rds into the G45 but I saw some of that vertical stringing today. Not sure exactly what it is, but I’m guessing something trigger related.


When that happens to me, I’m typically relaxing my wrist and breaking the angle. I find shooting high with Glocks kinda like shooting left with Glocks. It’s pretty easy to do unless you maintain perfect attention.

[JHC]

Man, this G45 is something else. 2.5” at 25yd freestyle with 115 Fiocchi. I think I feel ok about calling Dawson and asking for a taller front sight now. Group looks centered on the 8 ring, so 4” high from the center of the “x.”

33886

They're Glock "crack" to me. Nice shooting!