G34 (and other long-slide pistols) recoil muzzle wobble: Am I doing it wrong?

[AtomicToaster]

I shot a Glock 34 heavily all last year, and thought I was doing pretty well with it. Then I borrowed a G17 and beat the hell out of my G34 split times, due to far less vertical muzzle 'wobble' after the gun comes back down from recoil. In short, the G34 takes much longer to stabilize in my hands, whereas the G17 gets out of my way and lets me shoot, to paraphrase OrigamiAK. I've noticed and been annoyed by the 'muzzle bounce' phenomenon with many other guns, and am wondering what the proper way is to deal with it:

1: Change my grip in some way to stabilize the pistol more quickly? Some quick details on how I grip the pistol: hand position is very Vogel-esque, and grip pressure is as follows: strong hand in a C-clamp on the front and backstrap with the part of the hand behind the trigger finger torquing inward against the side of the gun, weak hand pulling back against the strong hand somewhat (just as a function of arm length and hand position, not an active pull) and torquing inward high on the gun.

2: Get better at timing my trigger press to "catch" the trigger at the right moment of recoil recovery (this one seems unlikely to be the answer, given the benefits of the "compressed surprise break" method of running the trigger)

3: Something else entirely...

Thanks, all!
-C.J.

[JV_]

Interesting. I really don't notice that much difference between a 34 and a 17.

[AtomicToaster]

I was surprised at how much difference there was. My first thought was that it was the difference in recoil spring assemblies between the two guns (the G34 is a Gen4, while the 17 is a Gen3), so I stuck a Jager guide rod with a Gen3 G17 spring in the 34. This improved things somewhat, but the 'wobble' issue persists. If I recall correctly, I also never experienced wobble issues with the Gen4 G17 I put a couple thousand rounds through early last year.

[TheTrevor]

How is your grip and wrist strength? Longer slide/barrel can mean a longer lever to work against your wrists if you aren't able to aggressively manage recoil.

ETA: Now that I think about it, I saw an exaggerated version of this at a recent USPSA match. A new shooter was running a G35 and was very visibly struggling to manage recoil because he didn't have the hand or wrist strength needed. The result was exactly as you describe, a lot of front-sight bobbing during recovery after the shot.

[AtomicToaster]

How is your grip and wrist strength? Longer slide/barrel can mean a longer lever to work against your wrists if you aren't able to aggressively manage recoil.

Fine, as far as I know. I wonder if my grip is fighting the recoil a little too much, actually.

[TheTrevor]

Fine, as far as I know. I wonder if my grip is fighting the recoil a little too much, actually.

It's a lot easier to experiment with using less strength to manage recoil than vice versa. :)

[GJM]

Most folks, including Origami (since you mentioned him) think a 34 is easier to shoot but the difference to a 17 is very slight. If the 34 doesn't suit you, I would just use a 17 since it is easier to carry and more reliable across a wide range of ammo.

[AtomicToaster]

Most folks, including Origami (since you mentioned him) think a 34 is easier to shoot but the difference to a 17 is very slight. If the 34 doesn't suit you, I would just use a 17 since it is easier to carry and more reliable across a wide range of ammo.

Except that I already own the 34 and am borrowing the 17 ;)

More importantly, I experience this same issue with ANY long-slide pistol. 1911s, M&P Pros, etc.. I think there's a technique issue here, and since I like to play around with other guns from time to time (like you, I shoot for fun), I'd like to see if I can correct the software problem.

[AtomicToaster]

Another idea: my shooting stance is somewhat 'turtled', with elbows pointed out sideways, because I feel like that helps lock my wrists. It could be that I'm not taking enough of the recoil in my elbows as a consequence. Thoughts?

[GJM]

Another idea: my shooting stance is somewhat 'turtled', with elbows pointed out sideways, because I feel like that helps lock my wrists. It could be that I'm not taking enough of the recoil in my elbows as a consequence. Thoughts?

Video?

[AtomicToaster]

Video?

Mostly first-person, but it might help:

http://www.youtube.com/user/g34p4r4b3llum/videos

Thanks;
-C.J.

[GJM]

wow, you put a lot of effort into your video presentation, incorporating the stage description -- you should start a business!

It pains me to say it, because I have come full circle, but I am starting to wonder whether the Vogel method of using the support hand works so well for Vogel because his hands are so strong? My wife, shooting a Glock 34, and me shooting a range of stuff have migrated away from that method of using the support hand, over the last six months.

What got me wondering about it, besides discussing it with Frank Garcia and Manny Bragg, was noticing how my hands seemed to separate when cold or shooting a .40.

[Mr_White]

I am starting to wonder whether the Vogel method of using the support hand works so well for Vogel because his hands are so strong? My wife, shooting a Glock 34, and me shooting a range of stuff have migrated away from that method of using the support hand, over the last six months.

What got me wondering about it, besides discussing it with Frank Garcia and Manny Bragg, was noticing how my hands seemed to separate when cold or shooting a .40.

The times I have tried it, my hands separate too, even shooting 9mm, and the gun tracks diagonally.

I never trust that I am actually doing it right, and I wonder about the grip strength thing too.

[LSP552]

The Glock 34 is my favorite Glock, hands down. For me, there is a measurable difference between the 34 and 17. The difference is small on the square range but shooting on the move with a WML, the 34 tracks better and I'm faster and more accurate. For some reason, I also find the 34 much less sensitive to grip pressure. Everyone is different, but a neutral grip works best for me with Glocks.

For ME, the handling differences between the 35 and 22 is MUCH greater. Part of this is probably the greater weight difference between the 35 and 22 vs the 34 and 17. In truth, I could live with a 17 for everything. However, I'd never select a 22 over a 35.

Ken

[Lot2Learn]

I have the same issue as well. Everyone said if you are going to shoot a glock for USPSA production, get the 34. I think the muzzle whips too much also, not so much up, it bounces down too far, I feel like I am trying to shoot a diving board. That is why I choose to shoot the 17, I shoot it faster on the timer, I can track the sights easier and It is just a better gun for me. Another advantage to that is that I can carry a 17 comfortably so it is good situation over all.

Of course everything I just wrote pertains to me...your perception may be different.

[45dotACP]

I think maybe you should try just holding the gun like you would if you weren't Bob Vogel. Bob Vogel can squeeze a gallon of orange juice from three oranges...Bob Vogel once squeezed a feather duster and ended up with a handful of diamonds. Bob Vogel has extraordinarily strong hands and you are likely not Bob Vogel*.

I'd also look to the advice of other USPSA champs. Brian Enos advocates for a neutral grip, because it helps you track the sights better/more predictably. If you try to turn your gun into a diamond, perhaps the sight bounce you see is the excess tension in your grip bleeding off. Just food for thought. You would not be the first to mention that the G34 doesn't suit them for reasons.

*Some things attributed to Bob Vogel in this post may or may not have actually happened

[AtomicToaster]

I guess I probably shouldn't have used Vogel's name in my description. I have no idea if I am gripping the gun in the same way in terms of torque, pressure, etc., and am not consciously trying to emulate him; I was simply trying to describe my support-hand positioning in a recognizable way. Still, I think I do have a tendency to 'muscle' the gun a little too much. It happens to work really well for Glocks 17 and 19, but not so well for other makes/models of pistol, it seems.

[PPGMD]

wow, you put a lot of effort into your video presentation, incorporating the stage description -- you should start a business!

I agree, I was like thinking "Wow that makes me look low brow just putting the stage times."

Anyways to answer your question for me the sights always tracked back into the notch. I shot a Glock 34 (GSSF) last weekend, and I didn't notice any wobble.

I also shoot the M&P 9 Pro 5" (USPSA, SCSA), and the XDM 9 5.25" (NRA AP).

My grip strength is descent, but now where near Vogel levels. My upper body is a slight forward lean with a little bit of a turtle, but neither are too far forward. OTOH I have a lot of ummm... mass to absorb the recoil.

After looking the pictures I did notice that I was favoring my normal leg, I need to work on that to get my balance a bit more even.

[Surf]

Not claiming to be any shooting phenom but I am also back assward in that I shoot my G17 better overall than my G34 and in the past I did pretty extensive back to back testing. I am actually interested in revisiting this topic and trying some different things with both pistols.

[jetfire]

The times I have tried it, my hands separate too, even shooting 9mm, and the gun tracks diagonally.

I never trust that I am actually doing it right, and I wonder about the grip strength thing too.

It's worth noting that Bob is actually freak strong. He could close a #3 CoC gripper, which is an insane amount of grip force.

[AtomicToaster]

So, those of you who can shoot the G34 without the bounce/wobble/dip, could you describe your grip in terms of where the torque/pressure is focused?

[BCL]

Use a lighter recoil spring, a 15lb will work with the stock striker spring, not 100% sure about a 13lb.

[Mr_White]

I shot a Glock 34 heavily all last year, and thought I was doing pretty well with it. Then I borrowed a G17 and beat the hell out of my G34 split times, due to far less vertical muzzle 'wobble' after the gun comes back down from recoil.

How much are you beating your split times by? And on what target/distance?


So, those of you who can shoot the G34 without the bounce/wobble/dip, could you describe your grip in terms of where the torque/pressure is focused?

Not sure if I shoot it without the dip, but I think my grip is pretty conventional. Leatham-Enos thumbs forward, gripping hard with both hands, I am no strongman either. No attempt at torquing pressures for me – that is where my gun starts tracking diagonally, because when I try to torque, it isn't evenly distributed. Diagonal tracking isn't necessarily bad in and of itself, but I'd rather the gun track more vertically. An extreme forward cant in my support hand is what weakens my grip and then my hands come apart.


If the 34 doesn't suit you, I would just use a 17 since it is easier to carry and more reliable across a wide range of ammo.

Definitely agree with this. If you shoot one better than the other I wouldn't sweat it.


Use a lighter recoil spring, a 15lb will work with the stock striker spring, not 100% sure about a 13lb.

I need to experiment with this more. I've tried a 15lb RSA a few times, and had a hard time noticing the difference. So many people find a difference that I think I should try again.

I wouldn't discount the possibility that when you shoot that 17, you could be paying more attention since it's not yours and managing the recoil recovery and trigger cycles better. I would also consider the triggers in the two guns – is one noticeably better than the other?

[PPGMD]

So, those of you who can shoot the G34 without the bounce/wobble/dip, could you describe your grip in terms of where the torque/pressure is focused?

I grip the gun firmly, but I am not trying to bend it into a desired shape.

"Just enough" would describe the pressure of my grip.

[Beat Trash]

Not claiming to be any shooting phenom but I am also back assward in that I shoot my G17 better overall than my G34 and in the past I did pretty extensive back to back testing. I am actually interested in revisiting this topic and trying some different things with both pistols.

I sold my G34 about 10 years ago when I found I shot a friends G17 slightly better. Went out and bought a G17. I'm also thinking about revisiting the topic lately. Your response has got me to thinking...

[jetfire]

So, those of you who can shoot the G34 without the bounce/wobble/dip, could you describe your grip in terms of where the torque/pressure is focused?

I grip the gun hard, but not Bob Vogel hard. I also have a Gen4 which has much better texturing.

[45dotACP]

I am also no shooting phenom, and I've never actually shot the two guns back to back, but I just grip. Kinda hard. Here's the thing though, I use my hands only and try to avoid all the inward torque of the chest muscles, because to me, the tension restricts movement. I still get the hands high on the gun and my elbows still point outward, but I don't make a conscious effort to point my elbows to the ceiling or load up my pectorals with tension. Most 9mm loads should not be something you cannot overcome on the basis of hand strength alone. I recommend the CoC doodads.

[LSP552]

For me, Glocks shoot best with a neutral grip (50 - 50 grip pressure). I use the standard thumbs forward grip and grip firmly but evenly. You will see recommendations for a wide range of grip percentage for the off-hand. Equal pressure works best for me, everyone's mileage is different.

Shooting into the backstop (no target) and watching how the front sight lifts and returns will help determine what works best individually. Vary your grip and pressure while focusing solely on how the front sight lifts and returns. The goal is to have the front sight return into the notch in a predictive manner and park there without bouncing around.

For me, too much off-hand (left) grip pressure makes the sight return bouncy. I personally think how the front sight returns is more important than how it lifts. A good neutral grip goes a long way for returning the front sight consistently back directly into the notch.

One problem with the grip 80% of your pressure with the off hand idea is how to repeat that? I think this is important because, for me, the Glock is one of the most sensitive platforms to grip pressure and consistency is key to shooting them well. Take a sight picture and them start changing how much pressure you grip with and watch the front sight move out of the notch. I just find the concept of a neutral grip and letting the gun do its thing works better more me than trying to muscle the gun.

Ken

[AtomicToaster]

How much are you beating your split times by? And on what target/distance?


G17: .18 to .28 typical splits on 7yd Bill drill
G34: .35 to .45 typical splits on 7yd Bill drill

Basically, I have to wait for the G34 to stabilize due to the 'diving board' behavior of the muzzle, whereas the 17 is rock-solid stable before I'm ready for another trigger press.

[Chris Rhines]

G17: .18 to .28 typical splits on 7yd Bill drill
G34: .35 to .45 typical splits on 7yd Bill drill

Basically, I have to wait for the G34 to stabilize due to the 'diving board' behavior of the muzzle, whereas the 17 is rock-solid stable before I'm ready for another trigger press.

That is a *huge* variation, and IMO more than can be explained by just an extra 3/4" of barrel.

Are both Glocks set up more or less identically? Same sights, same triggers, factory RSAs, etc.?

[Rick Finsta]

Given the difference in sight radius, is the same natural cone of deviation giving you a visually larger wobble area on the longer gun, when the actual deviation of the round impact would be the same? Not sure how to test that but it popped into my head as I was reading this.

[Mr_White]

That is a *huge* variation, and IMO more than can be explained by just an extra 3/4" of barrel.

Are both Glocks set up more or less identically? Same sights, same triggers, factory RSAs, etc.?

I agree and wonder the same things.

[GJM]

This is a crazy difference in split times, and something else must be going on.

Just as a single data point on strength, my 120 pound wife shoots her Glock 34 slightly faster than a 17 on timed drills, and prefers the 34 for that reason.

[bofe954]

G17: .18 to .28 typical splits on 7yd Bill drill
G34: .35 to .45 typical splits on 7yd Bill drill

Basically, I have to wait for the G34 to stabilize due to the 'diving board' behavior of the muzzle, whereas the 17 is rock-solid stable before I'm ready for another trigger press.

Is it just that the longer sight radius is giving you a more demanding sight picture?

What would happen if you shot the 34 at 17 pace?

Do you need a rock solid stable sight picture before you're ready for another trigger press on a 7 yd bill drill?

I've shot worse with 2x scoped pistols because the sight picture was so much "better", I could see all my wobble in the crosshairs and then was trying to yank the trigger at the moment the crosshairs were in the right spot...

I'd be real curious to know if you shot a .25 split pace with the 34 if your groups would be the same or better than the 17. You're just getting "better" feedback on what the sights are doing and you don't know how much to ignore. To me a 0.2-0.25 pace is pretty good shooting, you're in the 2 second range, 0.35 to 0.4 is pretty ugly, I am amazed someone who could shoot a 0.2 split on a bill drill would shoot a 0.35 with anything.

[JV_]

Why is there so much variability in your split times with a single gun?

When I run a Bill Drill, or a FAST, my splits tend to be within .02 or .03 of each other.

[AtomicToaster]

I tend to speed up as I shoot a Bill drill as I realize I can get away with going faster, so that accounts somewhat for the wide range of splits with a single pistol. Also, I almost always shoot that drill cold.

I've tried to set them up as similarly as possible in terms of trigger and recoil spring, but a Gen3 (the 17) and a Gen4 (the 34) can only be so alike.

Maybe it really is as simple as sights...I'll try swapping the sights between the 17 and 34. For Science!

[Rick Finsta]

I'm thinking it'd be more about the relative sight movement than the sights themselves, but I'm interested to hear what happens when you change them back and forth.

[AtomicToaster]

Correct. I'm relatively sure there's nothing wrong with the sights, I just want a more apples-to-apples comparison.

[Drone14k]

Correct. I'm relatively sure there's nothing wrong with the sights, I just want a more apples-to-apples comparison.

Hey man did you ever figure this out? If so what worked for you?

[JonInWA]

After years of shooting my Gen 3 G34, and with a very decent set of sights on it (Warren Tacticals), I came to the conclusion that I shot it no better than my G17 (with Glock steel sights); both of mine were Gen 3 guns. And I may well have actually been shooting better with the G17....and the G34 wasn't doing anything for me that my G17 and G19 weren't...

Upshot: I traded in the G34 (someone got a very nice, meticulously maintained G34, and I hope they're enjoying it).

Best, Jon

[GJM]

Every time I think I know something about slide lengths, or weight, I prove myself wrong. Just a few days ago, I saw this forlorn direct milled G3 34 slide sitting on my bench, and on the other side of the bench a DeltaPoint Pro. I mated them, took them to the range, and to my surprise, found them to be an incredible shooting combination. Everything I thought about shorter slides and red dots went out the window. Probably gets down to something as sophisticated as what we had for breakfast that day!

103343

[Tensaw]

Them long slides run smoove don't they? I have a Gen4 G35 (along with a KKM 9mm conversion barrel) that I occasionally think of selling off, but when I shoot it, it makes me smile. Too, that pistol, in .40, is my "bear gun" so there's that... ;)

GJM - Hey, does switching between pistols with varying grip angles (Glock vs. PDP for instance) create any difficulty with finding the dot for you?

[GJM]

Them long slides run smoove don't they? I have a Gen4 G35 (along with a KKM 9mm conversion barrel) that I occasionally think of selling off, but when I shoot it, it makes me smile. Too, that pistol, in .40, is my "bear gun" so there's that... ;)

GJM - Hey, does switching between pistols with varying grip angles (Glock vs. PDP for instance) create any difficulty with finding the dot for you?

My support finger on the front of the trigger guard, and how I place my strong hand on the back strap, makes them all point about the same for me.

[JJN]

I have an irrational attachment to my G34. I mostly chalk it up to placebo effect, but I'll take it.

[ronin0829]

After my cancer recovery I struggled with grip strength. I was shooting a G34 and I was having a side-to-side wobble issue. I switched to a CZ P10 and found that the slightly smaller, rounder, grip worked better for me than the squarish Glock grip.