The ol' Glock & small hands problem...

[JTPHD]

Hi Everyone,

(Warning: Long-Winded)

My current carry/training gun is a G19 Gen 4, but I have very small hands. As a result, I have to angle the pistol outwards considerably to get a proper trigger squeeze. I can achieve decent slow-fire accuracy (2" @ 25yds), but I have to really work to get speed and consistency because of the stretch to the trigger.

The other day, I made the mistake of shooting a CZ P-07 and it was so much easier to shoot and operate as a lefty. My first reaction was to make the switch to CZ...

I'd like to be able to continue with the Glock instead of switching to another system again (tried M&P +Apex for a few months, had accuracy issues). My problem is, I really like the idea of carrying Glocks for the availability of parts and the fact that I am invested in the pistols (mags, holsters, sights, SIRT, etc.) Plus, as many note, the G19 is so easy to carry.

There appear to be a few options to fix the Glock:

1. Grip Reduction- From my research, it looks like most "reductions" don't actually reduce the trigger reach, plus the extended lead times.

2. Does anyone have experience with Short triggers, e.g. Lightening Strike, etc?

3. Just Deal with it!

Or... move to CZ

Your thoughts?

[Haraise]

Robar did a good grip reduction and it had a short reach trigger.

That said, I'd never want to carry that kind of gun. Flexing can hinder mag insertion, and the trigger had no pretravel. I don't feel comfortable with a glock that has a very light and no travel trigger.

I'd move to the CZ. CZ Custom has an amazing Short Reset Trigger that makes the single action shots some of the best single action I've felt. Really great rolling break to it.

[idahojess]

I had a similar problem with my Gen 3 19, and switched to M&P's. The reach on the Glock was a bit long, I have a compromised grip anyway, and I was having bad ejection/extraction issues, which is a bit of a known issue with the Glock, but I think even more of an issue when you don't have a good grip on the gun.

I won't get rid of the Glock, since the parts and mags are readily available, but it has moved to a different safe, and is unloaded.

I did contemplate a grip reduction, but haven't looked into it seriously, since the M&Ps work for what I need them for. I think people can do good jobs with reductions, and it may solve your problem.

I would be careful about coming around the side of the gun to reach the trigger. Massad Ayoob has written about overuse injuries that can be caused by not aligning the gun with your forearm. Not only is the gun not properly aligned with your forearm for recoil control (and to ensure proper functioning of the gun), but the recoil force could be coming back into your thumb joint.

Good luck,

[LittleLebowski]

Move to CZ and then commit to it.

[JeffJ]

Switch to CZ, there are so many quality handgun choices on the market that it makes no sense to fight a platform just because other people have success with it - unless of course you are mandated to by department policy, etc. As an aside, you may also want to look at the P01 and PCR, they are alloy frame compact CZs, very similar in size and weight to the P07, but a little shorter and thinner - this would give you options on grip panels that can really make a difference if you have reach issues.

[JTPHD]

Thank you all for your well-written responses! It looks like CZ will be the way forward. I will also check out the P01 and PCR.
-Jon

[Haraise]

PCR and P01 are both wonderful options. IIRC they have slimmer mags, so even smaller grips but less capacity. You're in Phoenix, so stop by CZ Custom. They're /the shop/ in the US to go to for any CZs, and they're in Mesa.

[JTPHD]

Headed there soon, Haraise- will definitely check out the P-01 and PCR!

[JAD]

Small hands guy here. The CZ (cocked and locked I presume) seems like a good way forward. I was eventually able to get around a lousy Glock trigger press by gripping the crap out of the pistol, but that's no help with one hand. I went back to 1911s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Haraise]

Headed there soon, Haraise- will definitely check out the P-01 and PCR!

Awesome. Eric there is a great gunsmith, if you need any work done. Novak sights, SAO trigger, wider safeties, a nicer slide release. We talked about RMR mounting as well.

Just tell him to hurry up on my custom CZ Compact build. :P

[Jack Ryan]

Buy a gun that fits.

[Handy]

I have smallish hands, which is why my first pistol was a Baby Eagle, also known as the Jericho 941 and Uzi Eagle. They are Tanfoglio based Israeli CZ clones, and good ones. The Jericho brand offers the polymer frame version with manual safety, like the P-07. It might also be worth a look because the Eagle had the smallest grip frame I could find in 1994, and was a really nice gun, if heavy in the all steel version.

But, you've already wasted time and money just buying guns, so it might be a good time to take a step back and expand the search. Caracal, GP6, Steyr S9, Walther PPQ, BHP, HK UPSc or P2000 with a manual safety. Or even a single stack like a Kahr T9 or TP9, P239, or a P7M8. Find people who have them or stores with stock and handle them, first.

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh128/civic_s/pearl%20fd/10272009147.jpg

[Jaywalker]

I have a new (Oct 2013) Glock G19 that I'm not entirely sure about. I appreciate the availability of parts and its exceptional maintainability, its accuracy, and (for me) reliability, but... When I fit my hand on the grip at a shooting range or for dry-firing, everything is fine, but there's just a little too much pre-travel for me to be sure that my finger will be on the go-switch if I have to pull it for real. I have pulled it in practice and had my finger poorly enough placed that it was unfirable. My 1998 Kahr K9 is dead-nuts reliable, and has a great trigger reach for me, so it's my primary carry. I am considering my Browning Hi-Power, as it's pretty much the same size as the G19, but with a much shorter trigger reach - I'll just have to practice more with the safety, something I've wanted to avoid, but sometimes you just make the best choices you can.

[fixer]

I moved from Glocks to Berettas for the exact reason. I found it much, much more easy to commit to a platform that I could shoot well naturally. I wish I would have done this years ago.

[Jay Cunningham]

Just to make sure... is any of this a response to the "wisdom" that your pistol is "supposed to be" in a straight line with your forearm?

[Jaywalker]

Just to make sure... is any of this a response to the "wisdom" that your pistol is "supposed to be" in a straight line with your forearm?
Mine certainly was, or at least in the fleshy part between thumb and forefinger knuckles. Your question implies it's not necessary - would you explain, please?

[BobLoblaw]

Can we get a better understanding of what classifies as "small hands?"

From the crease in the web of my thumb to the tip of my index finger is 4.5". I thought my chronic "leftism" and crappy WHO/SHO shooting was purely a dedication issue. Beginning to think there might be a secondary factor concerning my guns of choice.

[Jay Cunningham]

Mine certainly was, or at least in the fleshy part between thumb and forefinger knuckles. Your question implies it's not necessary - would you explain, please?

I've heard and seen this trope enough to guess maybe you were going off of it. A quick search let me dig this up:

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/behind-the-line-cover.jpg

If you're shooting bullseye this makes a lot of sense, but I have never had anyone be able to satisfactorily explain to me how it's important for the pistol to remain in a straight line with your forearm when shooting with two-hands... whether your stance be Weaver, Iso, or whatever.

So, the key take-away is that there's nothing wrong with not being able to adequately reach the trigger with the gun lined up straight with your forearm. It's a false litmus test. I have extrememly small hands (size 8 gloves) and I get a full 360 degree grip on my Glock. AND I shoot SHO/WHO just fine, thankyouverymuch.

This is yet another example of people repeating things like a parrot without understanding what they are talking about.

[Tod-13]

I've heard and seen this trope enough to guess maybe you were going off of it. A quick search let me dig this up:

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/behind-the-line-cover.jpg

If you're shooting bullseye this makes a lot of sense, but I have never had anyone be able to satisfactorily explain to me how it's important for the pistol to remain in a straight line with your forearm when shooting with two-hands... whether your stance be Weaver, Iso, or whatever.

So, the key take-away is that there's nothing wrong with not being able to adequately reach the trigger with the gun lined up straight with your forearm. It's a false litmus test. I have extrememly small hands (size 8 gloves) and I get a full 360 degree grip on my Glock. AND I shoot SHO/WHO just fine, thankyouverymuch.

This is yet another example of people repeating things like a parrot without understanding what they are talking about.

But you need specify the degree of the issue before saying it is not important.

They need a smaller hand for the second picture. In the second picture, I think that person _could_ get a good grip. Look how much of the finger is through the trigger guard. To me, the OP might fit into this category, since the OP could actually shoot the Glock. I question the viability of such a grip for a caliber of any significant size, since the recoil is going through the thumb knuckle.

My fiancee's hands are so small, that the part of her thumb above the blue dotted line ends up facing her body. (Turn the hand in the picture 35-45 degrees left, or toward the top of the picture.) The recoil, rather than through the knuckle, is on the left (or top in the picture) of the knuckle. It is impossible for her to safely and comfortable shoot a Glock. The CZ-75 and Walther PPQ fit her great though.

[orionz06]

My 4'10" wife can shoot a Glock satisfactorily when she wants to. Her hands are tiny. Not saying it's ideal but it works.


Plus Tori Nonaka... How long has she been shooting Glocks?

[Jay Cunningham]

But you need specify the degree of the issue before saying it is not important.

They need a smaller hand for the second picture. In the second picture, I think that person _could_ get a good grip. Look how much of the finger is through the trigger guard. To me, the OP might fit into this category, since the OP could actually shoot the Glock. I question the viability of such a grip for a caliber of any significant size, since the recoil is going through the thumb knuckle.

My fiancee's hands are so small, that the part of her thumb above the blue dotted line ends up facing her body. (Turn the hand in the picture 35-45 degrees left, or toward the top of the picture.) The recoil, rather than through the knuckle, is on the left (or top in the picture) of the knuckle. It is impossible for her to safely and comfortable shoot a Glock. The CZ-75 and Walther PPQ fit her great though.


You are writing from the premise that the gun aligned with the forearm is a "good grip".

Are we talking about the outlier of one-handed shooting or are we talking about normal, two-handed shooting?

[Tod-13]

You are writing from the premise that the gun aligned with the forearm is a "good grip".


Only partially, if at all. I question less the alignment than where the recoil goes. A 41 mag revolver (or even a 9 or 357, depending on the shooter) is going to put too much recoil on the thumb knuckle if the recoil is going through (or outside) the second knuckle from the thumb nail.



Are we talking about the outlier of one-handed shooting or are we talking about normal, two-handed shooting?

This is normal two-handed shooting. The outlier might be the hand size...

[idahojess]

I know Mas Ayoob has written a lot of stuff, and not everyone agrees with it (and I don't agree to every thing he says, although I think he's smart). When I cited to his work earlier, one of the points he has made is regarding the recoil against the thumb issue.

"With handguns, a too-long trigger reach is destructive to accuracy because the shooter has to make one of two unsatisfactory accommodations. Either the finger isn't on the trigger enough, which will tend to cause the finger to "push the shot" to the left for a right-handed shooter (vice versa for a southpaw), or the hand has to twist around to where recoil is channeled painfully into the thumb instead of the web of the hand, which can severely impair recovery from recoil between shots."

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob131.html

I do think Mr. Ayoob has written on the forearm alignment issue as well, but I'll be danged if I can find a link. I readily admit that I'm not an expert in all things shooting. But I do like to pass on information that I have read that makes sense to me, based on my experience (which is by no means great).

I do have a very compromised grip (born with an injured support hand). I think, in my case, that the "tolerance stacking" of not having a strong grip, having to reach a bit around the side of the grip to reach the trigger, not having the weight of the forearms squarely behind the gun to absorb recoil, and the Glock's rather weak extraction, led to stove piping with the Glock for me.

Obviously, everyone is different, and some things work better for some than others.

Hope that helps explain what I said earlier.

[Tod-13]

I know Mas Ayoob has written a lot of stuff <snip>
"With handguns, a too-long trigger reach is destructive to accuracy because the shooter has to make one of two unsatisfactory accommodations. Either the finger isn't on the trigger enough, which will tend to cause the finger to "push the shot" to the left for a right-handed shooter (vice versa for a southpaw), or the hand has to twist around to where recoil is channeled painfully into the thumb instead of the web of the hand, which can severely impair recovery from recoil between shots."<snip>
This is what I was talking about, but too small of a hand to the point where recoil is painful on the thumb. Thanks idahojess!

[Jaywalker]

I suppose if you can guarantee you'll be able to shoot with both hands, e.g., not holding a dog leash, a child's hand, a flashlight, a cellphone, very much etc., grip vs. hand size can be considered less important.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I have been shooting .40 Glocks since being first issued one in 1999. Until my recent retirement, they have been mandated as duty guns. My hand size is 6C-7C. The trigger reach on my Ruger SP-101 and Kahr pistols seem ideal to me.
I actually didn't really notice a issue until I recently experimented with the GFA (dropped that quickly) and the NY1/(-) combination, whereupon I began to realize that the Gen3 Glock is at the upper limit for me. No longer required to carry a .40, I recently dropped a Storm Lake 9mm conversion barrel in my G23 with satisfactory results. I am seriously considering sending it into Cold Bore Custom for a grip reduction.

Funny enough, I began as a modern/Chapman Weaver shooter, then was encouraged to transition to a thumbs-forward modern iso grip. After some of the threads on here, I began shooting with a Weaver-ish grip again and have seen some pretty positive results in my grip stability. I also just traded into an M&P9 and M&P22 to experiment with.

[idahojess]

Here's another resource on this stuff that I knew I had read somewhere:
From Dave Spaulding's book, Handgun Combatives, 2nd edition, (2011) page 56:
"If reaching this proper trigger engagement point requires you to roll your hand around the gun, breaking that forearm plane, the gun is too big for you. A gun that is too big for you will cause three problems:"


1. "From a medical standpoint, all of the forces of recoil will be forced back on your thumb..."
2. "You will never be able to press the trigger straight to the rear without affecting the rest of your shooting grip..."
3. "You will not be able to use the body's natural pointing capability to the get the gun on target."

(I shortened to save space, plus I can't type worth a darn)

[JAD]

I've heard and seen this trope enough

If you're shooting bullseye this makes a lot of sense, but I have never had anyone be able to satisfactorily explain to me how it's important for the pistol to remain in a straight line with your forearm when shooting with two-hands... whether your stance be Weaver, Iso, or whatever.

So, the key take-away is that there's nothing wrong with not being able to adequately reach the trigger with the gun lined up straight with your forearm. It's a false litmus test. I have extrememly small hands (size 8 gloves) and I get a full 360 degree grip on my Glock. AND I shoot SHO/WHO just fine, thankyouverymuch.

This is yet another example of people repeating things like a parrot without understanding what they are talking about.

I'd like to see more input from SMEs on this, especially from someone with a background in kinesiology. It was explained to me by Jack Furr and Jim Crews, in separate environments, that I want forearm / slide alignment for several reasons:
- Consistency, in that it's the most natural place for a consistent index. I find this to be true for me. If I let myself crawl, I crawl to varying degrees. If I practice alignment, index is easier.
- Consistency, in that a locked wrist is a more consistent physical position than a wrist, which will again be bent to varying degrees.
- Physiology, in that a locked wrist helps absorb recoil more efficiently and decreases stress on the moving parts.
- Physiology, in that I can push hard on a locked wrist without stressing the moving parts.

This explanation has borne out for me personally. I don't see it as a 'trope.'

[Jay Cunningham]

Different things are being discussed.

Yes, if a gun's grip is big and you have small hands, you'd probably be better off with a gun with a more slender grip. Yes, if a gun's grip is small and you have big hands, you'd probably be better off with a gun with a girthier grip.

Now... the gun in perfect alignment with the forearm/trigger reach thing is kind of a separate issue. Related, but separate.

Take a SIRT or blue gun and stand in the mirror with your normal stance/grip. Is your gun in line with your firing hand forearm?

[Jay Cunningham]

I've also noticed that most of the time (I said *most* of the time, not *all* of the time) that when I see this picture sequence the "perfect" grip in one hand lined up perfectly with the forearm is a 1911. You know... slender single stack, short reach single action trigger. Then the pic of the "bad" grip is invariably with one of them there Glocks or something similar.

[Jay Cunningham]

I suppose if you can guarantee you'll be able to shoot with both hands, e.g., not holding a dog leash, a child's hand, a flashlight, a cellphone, very much etc., grip vs. hand size can be considered less important.

Do you devote the majority of your training time to outliers, or to the middle of the statistical bell curve?

[Jaywalker]

Do you devote the majority of your training time to outliers, or to the middle of the statistical bell curve?Jay, in the far past when I learned to shoot, it was all one-handed. In the 1970s I moved to two-handed. Much more recently, the analyses I've read indicate that one-handed is the most common defense shot (though I can't supply a citation), and that the two-handed shot is the statistical outlier, not the one-handed. I train two-handed and one-handed, but one-handed is likely easier for me since I learned one-handed.

[dookie1481]

Hi Everyone,

(Warning: Long-Winded)

My current carry/training gun is a G19 Gen 4, but I have very small hands. As a result, I have to angle the pistol outwards considerably to get a proper trigger squeeze. I can achieve decent slow-fire accuracy (2" @ 25yds), but I have to really work to get speed and consistency because of the stretch to the trigger.

The other day, I made the mistake of shooting a CZ P-07 and it was so much easier to shoot and operate as a lefty. My first reaction was to make the switch to CZ...

I'd like to be able to continue with the Glock instead of switching to another system again (tried M&P +Apex for a few months, had accuracy issues). My problem is, I really like the idea of carrying Glocks for the availability of parts and the fact that I am invested in the pistols (mags, holsters, sights, SIRT, etc.) Plus, as many note, the G19 is so easy to carry.

There appear to be a few options to fix the Glock:

1. Grip Reduction- From my research, it looks like most "reductions" don't actually reduce the trigger reach, plus the extended lead times.

2. Does anyone have experience with Short triggers, e.g. Lightening Strike, etc?

3. Just Deal with it!

Or... move to CZ

Your thoughts?

I'm in the same boat as you, small hands and all. The trigger reach looks long on the P-07. You had an easier time addressing the trigger on the CZ than the G19?

[JTPHD]

I'm in the same boat as you, small hands and all. The trigger reach looks long on the P-07. You had an easier time addressing the trigger on the CZ than the G19?

I actually just picked up a P-07 yesterday. It initially has a longer reach in DA mode, but the difference with the CZ is that I can press the trigger without any movement of the sights, there is no frame contact with my finger, and it all-around works better for my hand. I'll get back back with you tomorrow with some range results.

[dookie1481]

I actually just picked up a P-07 yesterday. It initially has a longer reach in DA mode, but the difference with the CZ is that I can press the trigger without any movement of the sights, there is no frame contact with my finger, and it all-around works better for my hand. I'll get back back with you tomorrow with some range results.

It's cool, I bought one anyway lol. I needed a good DA/SA pistol, and the price is hard to beat. Is yours the 2014 with the flatter trigger?

[JTPHD]

It's cool, I bought one anyway lol. I needed a good DA/SA pistol, and the price is hard to beat. Is yours the 2014 with the flatter trigger?

Yes. I also installed the Cajun kits (97910 & hammer upgrade with gold carry spring) and they are worth the money, IMO. DA is much smoother/lighter, SA is lighter, crisp, & has a shorter reset.