Why do you like the AK pattern rifle?

[breakingtime91]

I have been messing around with a polish underfolder since I got to MT last year. The main reason I decided to go with the under folder and 7.62 was it's a easy to carry camp/hiking gun with a twenty rounder in it. While messing around with it I found some things I liked and a few I didn't. Ill start with what I like and things I don't as the posts start filtering in.

Some of my likes:
-stupid easy to operate/maintain. I had my wife (not a gun gal) try to field strip it without any instruction and she figured it out in like 2 minutes.
-trigger is one of the best I've ever felt.
-this is completely subjective; it challenges me. Picking up an AR (which I think is a better all around carbine design) feels like business as usual while the AK gives me frsutrated/happy feeling.


Let me know what you guys think.

[LOKNLOD]

Novelty & fun, mostly. I have an SLR-107CR. It's a fun gun to shoot, and it's something different. The only thing it does "better" than my ARs is fold in half, and feed 7.62x39. I like that, even though it is really just a toy, it is a sturdy toy that is capable of hard use if needed, but really that likelihood is on par with me winning the powerball.

[Jay Cunningham]

It's hard to say.

Honestly, at this point I just kind of think they're cool and like them. There's not much objectivity.

The AR-15 weapon system is clearly superior in almost every aspect. AKs are good guns, and they're all over the place, so it's a good idea to be familiar with them.

There's a lot of history with AKs and so many variants, if you're into that kind of thing it can keep you occupied - it can also drive you nuts, too. I used to have that collector mentality a few years ago, but then I came to my senses.

If given a choice, I'll probably almost always choose an AR. But I still teach a 4 hour AK Clinic, and it's a lot of fun.

[Jay Cunningham]

The only thing it does "better" than my ARs is fold in half, and feed 7.62x39.

Pretty much.

[Tamara]

If one is of a certain age, I think there's still a lingering thrill of the verboten about them. I remember the first time I saw a table full of Norincos at a gun show; it stopped me in my tracks. I mean, the Soviet Union was still definitely a thing at the time and Rambo may have still been showing in dollar theaters, and here was this whole table full of the preferred weapon of your enemy!

[Kyle Reese]

I'm still a sucker for the Kalashnikov platform, and the 5.45x39 cartridge.

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[Malamute]

I fooled with them a bit. The reputation for reliability under extreme conditions is attractive, and the 7.62 round is very cheap to shoot in general. When shooting old abandoned vehicles, the 7.62x39 seemed to shoot through them better than the 5.56, for whatever that's worth (I hardly ever need to do that). None of the self loader battle carbines really make good field calibers or guns for my use and area. Shorter didn't make them actually handy (in the hand) easy to carry. I lost interest in them for much more than inexpensive plinkers, and when money was tight, they went down the road. The last AR being sold in '09. Cant say I miss any of them. (dang,....I'm not really feeling grumpy, just don't really have much use for them.)


Had a Chinese underfolder ages ago. It wasn't a very stable shoulder stock, and was one of the reasons I sold it.

[LHS]

As a purely sentimental reason, I just like them. From a practical standpoint, ball ammo is half the price of 5.56 and I can fold my AK so it fits into a backpack.

If someone made a quality, reliable AR in 7.62x39, I'd be on it like a politician on a campaign donation.

[Failure2Stop]

As stated above:

Because it is a robust/proven SBR platform that shoots cheap supersonic .30 cal ammo with a stock that can be folded to the side and fired in that condition.

[DocGKR]

"If someone made a quality, reliable AR in 7.62x39, I'd be on it like a politician on a campaign donation."

They do, it is called .300 BLK...

[TR675]

Because I like it. I just do. Terrible safety location and ergos, irritating magazine changes, giant heavy mags, hard to mount an optic, optic rail is blocked by the stock when folded, the sights are awful, the grip is too small, you've got to wear gloves to shoot more than a mag through it...I don't care. After the M1 carbine it's my second favorite rifle.

Doesn't hurt that with an Aimpoint on it mine will cloverleaf 3 out of 5 rounds at 100 yards with Wolf Military Classic...*

*Ok, so it did that one time, but that's enough for me.

[breakingtime91]

One of the downsides I have ran into is the mag changes as well but with a consistent and efficient technique it is possible to make tactical and speed reloads reasonably quick. Saftey was another thing that I hated but a krebs custom saftey cured that for the most part. I think if you go into running the platform with a open mind and understand it's draw backs it really is a fun rifle to learn.

One of the main reasons I have stuck with it is the price. For the rifle plus a decent sling, white light, and aimpoint I was around the base AR I wanted. Ammo prices are another driving factor, right now as a college student I would not be able to afford to shot a AR and 9mm, 7.62 and 9mm I can...

[1slow]

AKs are more accurate than some people think. AK will have the rough use/ reliability edge IMHO.
ARs are more reliable than some people think. AR will always have the accuracy edge IMHO.
I run an AK reflexively, having run one in about 12 classes, including 6 of Pat Rogers 3 day classes. None of them have had any malfunctions in classes or training. Some ammo has had dead primers, maybe 1/3000, not the guns fault.
Currently 107Fr with T1 on Ultimak, and Surefire Fury, Vickers Blue Force padded sling. Folds up compactly.
7.62x39 works well on vehicles.
If I was needing more cartridge I would go back to Para FAL or go to SCAR Heavy maybe.

[breakingtime91]

AKs are more accurate than some people think. AK will have the rough use/ reliability edge IMHO.
ARs are more reliable than some people think. AR will always have the accuracy edge IMHO.
I run an AK reflexively, having run one in about 12 classes, including 6 of Pat Rogers 3 day classes. None of them have had any malfunctions in classes or training. Some ammo has had dead primers, maybe 1/3000, not the guns fault.
Currently 107Fr with T1 on Ultimak, and Surefire Fury, Vickers Blue Force padded sling. Folds up compactly.
7.62x39 works well on vehicles.
If I was needing more cartridge I would go back to Para FAL or go to SCAR Heavy maybe.

Your setup sounds almost identical to mine.
Polish underfolder
Ultimak rail
Us palm grip
Sure g2 in thorntail offset mount
Aimpoint h1 in standard mount
Rifle dynamics rear sight
Krebs underfolder saftey
550 cord love on the stock

[BWT]

It's a .22-25 cent .30 caliber cartridge. The magazines are built like tanks, reliable, durable, it has a relatively soft recoil. It's just a great all around gun, the muzzle blast, fireball, recoil impulse and loading process make it the most fun gun I own.

It has limitations and those have been cited. When I saw Arsenal SGL21's for sale for $649, I started saving as I knew this was an opportunity. By the time I bought one it was up to $749. Now they're $1,000.

I'm really happy with my Arsenal and I have no plans to part with it.

However, what's a good general trigger for an Arsenal? I had the factory two stage and the trigger slap was frustrating. I swapped it to a G2 and the G2 is a basically gritty single stage. (I can't detect the stages, and it's very light. Especially considering how hard the safety is to disengage, you would run it safety off. So I want a two stage for safety.)

If I could get a single stage 5.5-7 lb or better than what it shipped with or G2 two-stage for $60-90. I'd be happy. Thoughts?

I also installed a Kreb's custom peep sight and I'm not ecstatic over it these days...

ETA: I believe it also does away with the ability to co-witness.

[breakingtime91]

BWT, I would recommend using the saftey the same way as on any other gun, when not engaging something it's on. Krebs after market safteys make it super easy to use.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I don't know if a VZ58 guy is allowed to comment. The two aren't related, but the reasons I like 58s are the same: cheap, dependable battle rifle shoots cheap, dependable round. Accuracy is adequate; ergos mediocre but the gun is still functional. Folders I don't really care about for whatever reason.

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[LHS]

They do, it is called .300 BLK...

When they start selling .300BLK for $0.23/rd, I'll buy one. Until then, I can shoot four rounds of x39 for the cost of one round of .300BLK, and find ammo just about anywhere.

[breakingtime91]

When they start selling .300BLK for $0.23/rd, I'll buy one. Until then, I can shoot four rounds of x39 for the cost of one round of .300BLK, and find ammo just about anywhere.

Truth...

[BWT]

BWT, I would recommend using the saftey the same way as on any other gun, when not engaging something it's on. Krebs after market safteys make it super easy to use.

I would agree that's the best practice, however when speed is being emphasized. People overlook it.

ETA: Or forget.

[JSGlock34]

I don't particularly like the AK, but there are far too many AKs in the world for me not to develop proficiency with one. So there's an Arsenal SLR107CR in the safe that I take to the range every couple of months to remind myself that the AR isn't the most common assault rifle on the planet.


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[Kyle Reese]

It's amazing what you can do with a properly maintained / zeroed AK.

[JSGlock34]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfGnz38K9ik#t=15

[Jay Cunningham]

Safeties... interesting topic.

I'm a big believer in operating safeties to one's benefit, and not to one's detriment.

[breakingtime91]

CAn you explain that statement Jay?

[Hooper]

Pretty good stock left handed controls (better than typical AR controls, although the AR can be made to be better there with the aftermarket). Elegance in simplicity. Solid feel: everything is either a big chunk of steel or thick steel stampings (I like stampings in a firearm. Ever notice how when people are talking about stampings in a Russian rifle, they tend to disparage it, but the same people often think a German made H&K rifle or subgun or MG42 is awesome? Fortunately that trend seems to be going away). The hammer forged barrels of the originals. The balance and reasonable weight. The magazines, their design, construction, and positive locking into the rifle. Ability to resist mechanical stoppage when dirty through use of generous tolerances and hard to stop, strong operating components (compare an AR bolt lug to an AK bolt lug, for instance).

What I don't like: the bent barrels and canted sights that come about with the way the barrel is pressed into a trunnion. Yes, even the Russian and Bulgarian factories have it happen. Low quality factory finishes. Lack of a bolt hold open (although that keeps the thing mechanically simple). Not a very effective design to run a sound suppressor on. General lack of factory use of a flash suppressor (thanks to Krebs we can do better). Lack of standardization of the rear trunnion (the part that mounts the buttstock to the reciever).

Had FN made the FAL in 280 British as they originally planned and the cartridge succeeded, I probably would keep one of those around in lieu of the AK.

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[Odin Bravo One]

It's amazing what you can do with a properly maintained / zeroed AK.

First one needs to start with a properly built AK.

Most are not.

Most are epic hunks of crap. The US market is spoiled with the top end of AK's in circulation, and not an indicator or their worldwide performance.

I have one. Well built. And shot enough to keep familiar with it, and that is about it. I have no use for it unless that is the only thing available. A decent AR in .300 BLK gives me far more options.

[Jay Cunningham]

CAn you explain that statement Jay?

Sure, it means if the safety is poorly designed and/or difficult to operate, don't try to continuously monkey with it. AR-15s and 1911s have great manual safties - use them to your benefit. AKs and Remington 870s not so much - don't force yourself to use them to your detriment. There are aftermarket mods that help allieveate this; also the standard safety on an AK is oftentimes loosened up and easy to swipe off with a social finger. But it varies from gun to gun.

[breakingtime91]

First one needs to start with a properly built AK.

Most are not.

Most are epic hunks of crap. The US market is spoiled with the top end of AK's in circulation, and not an indicator or their worldwide performance.

I have one. Well built. And shot enough to keep familiar with it, and that is about it. I have no use for it unless that is the only thing available. A decent AR in .300 BLK gives me far more options.

While I agree with that most of the statement I feel like that's looking at the sporter bushmasters in the world and judging all of the good rifles of the same platform. And I'm also jealous you can afford to shoot 300 BLK

[breakingtime91]

Sure, it means if the safety is poorly designed and/or difficult to operate, don't try to continuously monkey with it. AR-15s and 1911s have great manual safties - use them to your benefit. AKs and Remington 870s not so much - don't force yourself to use them to your detriment. There are aftermarket mods that help allieveate this; also the standard safety on an AK is oftentimes loosened up and easy to swipe off with a social finger. But it varies from gun to gun.

I get that but a krebs saftey is like 30 bucks? I have seen way to many nds to ever leave a saftey off, I don't worry about my finger pulling the trigger but my gear or other things around getting into the trigger guard.

[Jay Cunningham]

I get that but a krebs saftey is like 30 bucks? I have seen way to many nds to ever leave a saftey off, I don't worry about my finger pulling the trigger but my gear or other things around getting into the trigger guard.

Actually they're $60... and while your rifle may have one installed, most don't. A big reason for training with an AK is familiarity with a threat weapon.

[BJJ]

It's just not as much fun to yell, "WOLVERINES!" from the top of a cliff while holding an AR.

[breakingtime91]

Actually they're $60... and while your rifle may have one installed, most don't. A big reason for training with an AK is familiarity with a threat weapon.

I can agree with that and sorry my price was off. I was mostly focusing on civilian ownership not familiarization for a near in the future deployment. Prbably why I never thought in that mindset.

[Tamara]

Because...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjeiCbVUEyA

[Surf]

I dig em mostly because of their nostalgic meaning and I like different things. I have always ran them well, feel very comfortable with one, shoot it well, but the reality it is not the "cats meow" that many AK fans tout them to be. I also do Fam-Fire blocks of instruction in certain courses and the SKS and AK are a couple of the common weapon types.

[TheTrevor]

I dig em mostly because of their nostalgic meaning and I like different things. I have always ran them well, feel very comfortable with one, shoot it well, but the reality it is not the "cats meow" that many AK fans tout them to be. I also do Fam-Fire blocks of instruction in certain courses and the SKS and AK are a couple of the common weapon types.

Surf, now you've got me curious. What are some of the others? PK-series?

[nycnoob]

A decent AR in .300 BLK gives me far more options.

What options with an AR that are not available with an AK? I assume aftermarket parts, but I also doubt you (Sean M) play around with accessories on long guns after you have them built to your specs so this is probably not a big deal to you.

[nycnoob]

I once attended a class with Ken Hackathorn and he made the statement that probably the best way to design a gun was to start with the magazine and the AK magazine was better then the AR magazine. I do not remember all his reasons he thought they were better (there were about 3-5) though I have notes somewhere. The one that stuck with me was the way the magazine was held in the rifle. The two points of contact on the magazine meant that all magazines will rotate around an axis if wiggled, AR mags will pitch and this can cause problems with the feed ramp when the round tries to feed at an incorrect angle while AK magazines will roll so feeding is not an issue as the AK mag wiggles around. I also believe he felt that the radius on the AK magazine was better for preventing problems then the straight AR magazine.

[Dagga Boy]

I like the 7.62x39 Ak platform because it makes "cover" into concealment. Once I retired the Ak became a very viable thing for me. If I am defending the home from hoards, then I want to make sure they do not have things like cars to hide behind.

Also, the use of Aimpoints on all my Ak's make it a night and day difference in how efficient I can hit things with them.

[DocGKR]

"A decent AR in .300 BLK gives me far more options."

This.

[Tamara]

I like the 7.62x39 Ak platform because it makes "cover" into concealment.

Yeah, I... I dunno...

Unless you're sitting on a stash of old steel-core ammo, the list of things that commercial lead 7.62x39 will go through that M855 won't is not really a very long one, is it? :confused:

[DocGKR]

M855 is not that great against windshields, doors, walls, etc...

[breakingtime91]

Yeah, I... I dunno...

Unless you're sitting on a stash of old steel-core ammo, the list of things that commercial lead 7.62x39 will go through that M855 won't is not really a very long one, is it? :confused:

I have seen miserable performance by m855 against things besides bad guys..

[TheTrevor]

I like the 7.62x39 Ak platform because it makes "cover" into concealment. Once I retired the Ak became a very viable thing for me. If I am defending the home from hoards, then I want to make sure they do not have things like cars to hide behind.

Also, the use of Aimpoints on all my Ak's make it a night and day difference in how efficient I can hit things with them.

I find that 7N6 out of my 5.45 AR is rather like a particle beam weapon when working against anything short of true hard cover. It has a unfortunate habit of slicing apart mild-steel target stand legs when I let the kids shoot it.

[mojobiker]

One AK vs AR difference that I don't often see mentioned, is that AK mags function well, even when fully loaded (30 rounds) . . . IME, AR mags run best when downloaded to 28 or 29.

[Tamara]

M855 is not that great against windshields, doors, walls, etc...

It's not so much that I thought green-tip was the berries in the AP department, just that I thought that copper-jacketed lead-core Wolf didn't shoot through stuff like I (dimly, granted) remember steel-core Norinco doing, back when it was the second cheapest ammo on the market after bulk-pack .22LR.

Thanks for the info, because my 7.62x39-owning days are near a decade in the past, so I haven't really gone and shot stuff with it to see what it would do. :o

[Jay Cunningham]

Not that it's the exact same thing, but m193 will cleanly pierce a steel plate that m855 may only dimple.

[Failure2Stop]

Not that it's the exact same thing, but m193 will cleanly pierce a steel plate that m855 may only dimple.

Yeep...

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[BWT]

Yeep...

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That's fascinating. Out of the guns I own, if I expected to be dealing with a threat in vehicles. I would bring my Arsenal SGL and a 12 GA loaded with slugs.

I'm interested that the steel tip rounds that are designed to penetrate Flak jackets perform worse against steel than the plain jane FMJ.

Any insights why?

ETA: XM193 maybe my new "General purpose" bullet. How does it perform against sheet rock?

[LHS]

That's fascinating. Out of the guns I own, if I expected to be dealing with a threat in vehicles. I would bring my Arsenal SGL and a 12 GA loaded with slugs.

I'm interested that the steel tip rounds that are designed to penetrate Flak jackets perform worse against steel than the plain jane FMJ.

Any insights why?

ETA: XM193 maybe my new "General purpose" bullet. How does it perform against sheet rock?

Short answer: velocity defeats steel. M193 is faster than M855.

[1slow]

That's fascinating. Out of the guns I own, if I expected to be dealing with a threat in vehicles. I would bring my Arsenal SGL and a 12 GA loaded with slugs.

I'm interested that the steel tip rounds that are designed to penetrate Flak jackets perform worse against steel than the plain jane FMJ.

Any insights why?
ETA: XM193 maybe my new "General purpose" bullet. How does it perform against sheet rock?

Para FAL 7.62x51 eats cars.
AP would be even better.

[Dagga Boy]

Para FAL 7.62x51 eats cars.
AP would be even better.

My 50.63 is in the "investment section" of the safe these days. I have lots of capable .308's, but they are not as fast handling as an AK or my 6.8 guns. I like 308's as a "sit on the bipod and destroy stuff" guns

[1slow]

50.63 is my favorite setup FAL.

[Chuck Haggard]

Having shot up a lot of cars, I haven't noted the lead core AK ammo getting through body work any better than 5.56 does.

The older steel core Norinco stuff would, with the trade off being that close range unobstructed shots would zip through people leaving a wound no greater than a .38 special shooting RNL ammo.

[Jay Cunningham]

Short answer: velocity defeats steel. M193 is faster than M855.

This is the best answer I could come up with as well. It surprised me, but my lyin' eyes showed me it was so.

[Chuck Haggard]

This is why I have seen .17Rem get through steel that a .308 barely makes a pock mark on.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I like the AK round for vehicles not for the sheet metal capability, but because it's miles ahead of 5.56 on glass.

[Kevin B.]

I like the AK round for vehicles not for the sheet metal capability, but because it's miles ahead of 5.56 on glass.

This has been my experience as well.

[BWT]

Having shot up a lot of cars, I haven't noted the lead core AK ammo getting through body work any better than 5.56 does.

The older steel core Norinco stuff would, with the trade off being that close range unobstructed shots would zip through people leaving a wound no greater than a .38 special shooting RNL ammo.

Huh... It'll tear through bricks better though?

What about bi-metal jackets like Wolf.

Most ranges these days don't allow them because of the "increased damage to the range", is that because there's truth in that. Or is it because it's cheaper than range ammo, the possibility of sparking, or they can't reload steel cases?

There is a range here that will charge you for shooting your own ammo, and others that don't allow bi-metal projectiles.

Strangely, this is all still on-topic for AK discussion.

ETA: And windshields being (ETA: easier) to penetrate than sheet metal is more confounding.

So 7.62x39 will perform better against laminated slanted glass than sheet metal? I figured with cars being built with crush cavities as extensively as they are these days 7.62x39 would whiz through as a slower round and 5.56mm as a faster round would shred itself after the first impact.

[joshs]

Huh... It'll tear through bricks better though?

What about bi-metal jackets like Wolf.

Most ranges these days don't allow them because of the "increased damage to the range", is that because there's truth in that. Or is it because it's cheaper than range ammo, the possibility of sparking, or they can't reload steel cases?

I asked the range manager at a very busy indoor range this same question and he said they have the policy so that they can easily identify prohibited ammo with a magnet test. He knew that bimetal jacket projectiles were not a problem for backstop, but the range had so many problems with steel-core 7.62x54R damaging the backstop that the manager was forced to implement the "no steel in the projectile" policy.

[Chuck Haggard]

Bi-metal jackets are in no way the same as a steel core.

[LOKNLOD]

ETA: And windshields being (ETA: easier) to penetrate than sheet metal is more confounding.

So 7.62x39 will perform better against laminated slanted glass than sheet metal? I figured with cars being built with crush cavities as extensively as they are these days 7.62x39 would whiz through as a slower round and 5.56mm as a faster round would shred itself after the first impact.

As I'm understanding it, it's not that 7.62 is better on glass than on sheet metal, it's that 7.62 is better on glass than 5.56, and both 7.62 and 5.56 are similar through car sheetmetal ("sheetmetal" having a lot of variation depending on vehicle, angle, what panel, etc.).

[BWT]

I asked the range manager at a very busy indoor range this same question and he said they have the policy so that they can easily identify prohibited ammo with a magnet test. He knew that bimetal jacket projectiles were not a problem for backstop, but the range had so many problems with steel-core 7.62x54R damaging the backstop that the manager was forced to implement the "no steel in the projectile" policy.

That makes sense.


Bi-metal jackets are in no way the same as a steel core.

I understand that but a solid lead core penetrating better than a 1/3 steel and 2/3 lead core had me asking questions earlier. I figured what can it hurt to ask.

I'm thinking perhaps the increase in velocity is an increase in friction/heat on impact, perhaps this causes the steel to be more malleable, a smaller projectile maybe a factor as well?

Is steel lighter than lead?

How does M855 versus M193 perform against soft body armor?

ETA 2: I wonder if it's not a mix of velocity, smaller size and the "shedding" of the copper jacket that allows the lead core to continue.

[Malamute]

I don't have nearly as much experience shooting vehicles as some here, though have observed that the m-193 stuff I shot cars with was often stopped by window cranks, I seem to recall that it went through the corrugated door reinforcement panels in the doors of a full size car ok most of the time. My impression was that it didn't hold up real well when multiple layers of metal were encountered, though that was just an impression. I didn't get to shoot 7.62x39 side by side. Most of what I shot was the Chinese steel core stuff back in the 80's. I did shoot a concrete block (not cinder block) that was poured solid with concrete. The steel core Chinese round went 4" straight into the concrete. The steel core was all that was left and was clearly visible in the hole with a cone of concrete blown out. Sounds good, though I think '06 or 7.62 Nato ball would probably have shattered it. I used to shoot rocks with '06 ball that were about 8-12" diameter and theyd shatter and scatter. Was great fun for a 14 year old kid with a 1917 to fool around with.

[Chuck Haggard]

The bi-metal jackets are a mild/soft steel, thin, and have a copper wash over then. Structurally they are no tougher than a regular copper jacket, and sometimes less so. The old steel jacketed German DAG .308 that would fragment like a giant M193 round is an example.

Soft body armor is essentially invisible to a 5.56 round, no matter how it is constructed.

Bullet construction is far more important, IMHO and observation, than caliber. The Barnes/DPX type bullets penetrate like crazy in cars, regardless of caliber, lead core bullets tend to break up unless they are bonded.
Rifle bullets, being longer, also tend to get more tipsy going through "complex barriers" like car doors. If they yaw badly then penetration is greatly reduced. Due to those two factors together I have seen some shot angles through car doors where 9mm 124gr +P Gold Dot gets through more consistently than Wolf 7.62X39. Weird stuff happens sometimes.

The last time I had cause to really worry about stopping a potential vehicle attack/possible VBIED and I couldn't have a .50 or any .mil type weaponry I had a 20 round mag of .308 ammo loaded up with alternating tracers and 168gr Barnes X bullets. 5.56/7.62X39/pistols just ain't reliable at getting into cars on every shot

[BWT]

The bi-metal jackets are a mild/soft steel, thin, and have a copper wash over then. Structurally they are no tougher than a regular copper jacket, and sometimes less so. The old steel jacketed German DAG .308 that would fragment like a giant M193 round is an example.

Soft body armor is essentially invisible to a 5.56 round, no matter how it is constructed.

Bullet construction is far more important, IMHO and observation, than caliber. The Barnes/DPX type bullets penetrate like crazy in cars, regardless of caliber, lead core bullets tend to break up unless they are bonded.
Rifle bullets, being longer, also tend to get more tipsy going through "complex barriers" like car doors. If they yaw badly then penetration is greatly reduced. Due to those two factors together I have seen some shot angles through car doors where 9mm 124gr +P Gold Dot gets through more consistently than Wolf 7.62X39. Weird stuff happens sometimes.

The last time I had cause to really worry about stopping a potential vehicle attack/possible VBIED and I couldn't have a .50 or any .mil type weaponry I had a 20 round mag of .308 ammo loaded up with alternating tracers and 168gr Barnes X bullets. 5.56/7.62X39/pistols just ain't reliable at getting into cars on every shot

Agreed on .50 BMG. I had a friend deploy to Afghanistan and experience a VBIED in a checkpoint.

When you're talking 200+ lbs of explosives in a vehicle trying to speed through barriers. I'd take the largest caliber I could. M82A1's just aren't in the budget for me unfortunately.

Thankfully, in America VBIED's aren't a daily concern. Thank you sincerely all veterans for your service.

12 GA could crack/break an engine block though. It's man portable and .75 caliber.

I agree with you with weird stuff happening. I think the sickle like shape of 5.45 also helps it with penetration.

ETA: I also wondered how the steel insert in M855 was bonded to the lead core. If they experience separation once they begin penetrating that wouldn't help.

ETA 2: The other thing about VBIEDs is, even if you identify a threat speeding towards you and destroy the engine and get into the passenger area. The vehicle still has momentum, you really need at least one large caliber crew served weapon to *stop* the vehicle.

[Chuck Haggard]

M855 isn't bonded, the steel and lead core go their separate ways once the jacket breaks up. Not all M855 acts the same though. The US stuff tends to fragment in gelatin, much of the stuff from Europe does not.
I shot some of the Izzy M855 I bought awhile back, in one side of a four door sedan, through the front doors, and out the other side, then through a 1/2" plywood witness panel, very clean holes, was like shooting through a cardboard box.

[Failure2Stop]

ETA: And windshields being (ETA: easier) to penetrate than sheet metal is more confounding.

So 7.62x39 will perform better against laminated slanted glass than sheet metal? I figured with cars being built with crush cavities as extensively as they are these days 7.62x39 would whiz through as a slower round and 5.56mm as a faster round would shred itself after the first impact.

I can't speak for the others on this, but here is my perspective:

It isn't a matter of defeating the glass, but rather, what the round does after passing through the glass.
Light projectiles tend to deflect more than heavier projectiles, and tend to have less impressive wounds after glass.

[Failure2Stop]

ETA 2: The other thing about VBIEDs is, even if you identify a threat speeding towards you and destroy the engine and get into the passenger area. The vehicle still has momentum, you really need at least one large caliber crew served weapon to *stop* the vehicle.

The only way to stop a vehicle is to present a barrier or equal opposite force.
I have seen vehicles with forward momentum fail to be stopped by just about everything in the US inventory.
The best hopes you have when engaging a VBIED is to disable the explosive, cause the driver to avert, or det the payload.
Option 3 isn't optimal, but at least might keep the boom from going off where it hurts the most.

[BWT]

The only way to stop a vehicle is to present a barrier or equal opposite force.
I have seen vehicles with forward momentum fail to be stopped by just about everything in the US inventory.
The best hopes you have when engaging a VBIED is to disable the explosive, cause the driver to avert, or det the payload.
Option 3 isn't optimal, but at least might keep the boom from going off where it hurts the most.

My only thoughts were you may be able to reach the wheels/tires/axles/transmission with .50 BMG. If you broke an axle, a wheel came loose, or a transmissions gears seized. I thought perhaps that would be sufficient.

[Failure2Stop]

My only thoughts were you may be able to reach the wheels/tires/axles/transmission with .50 BMG. If you broke an axle, a wheel came loose, or a transmissions gears seized. I thought perhaps that would be sufficient.

Watch how far the truck goes after getting hit with a live missile:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2624650/The-missile-never-misses-Watch-drone-launched-Brimstone-hit-car-moving-70mph-seven-MILES-away.html#v-3550733335001

[Byron]

The only way to stop a vehicle is to present a barrier or equal opposite force.
I have seen vehicles with forward momentum fail to be stopped by just about everything in the US inventory.

Watch how far the truck goes after getting hit with a live missile

http://i.imgur.com/gdVLdhc.jpg

Crazy link. Thanks for that.

[JRB]

On the topic of ammo - Anyone have any input/experience on the Hornady 7.62x39 SST/Zombiemax, and/or the Winchester PDX1 load now offered in 7.62x39?

As for owning the AK, I've found that somewhere in it's crude, unashamed simplicity, it's just plain FUN to run an AK well. A well-kitted AR would definitely be my first choice for 'social work', particularly as an SM and having run AR's more than anything else in my life, but as others have said, the newer optic mount options that exist really open up some worlds for the AK as an effective rifle.

The AK is also a great 'gateway' gun for new shooters, because they're fun, cheap to buy, cheap to feed, and have an interesting variety & history as well as mountains of milsurp stuff like magazines, pouches, etc to go along with it. Over the years, I've got more than one friend that's now running a well-sorted quality AR but started with a $350 WASR.

When introducing an adult to shooting, I'll usually see the first smiles as they roll cans around a plinking range backstop with my 10/22, but I'll see the first kitten-eating-grins after they shoot the fireball-barking TGI AMD-65.
While I hated the AMD's stock initially, adding an AMD65tech cheek riser and an Ultimak mount for a red dot totally changed that rifle.

Always worth a chuckle:
http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Soviet+Engineering_7e53e9_4287674.jpg

[Tamara]

Always worth a chuckle:
http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Soviet+Engineering_7e53e9_4287674.jpg

LOL! :D

I always thought it was really nice of Mormon John to include a beer opener (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2011/01/happy-new-year.html) on his masterwork.

[BWT]

Watch how far the truck goes after getting hit with a live missile:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2624650/The-missile-never-misses-Watch-drone-launched-Brimstone-hit-car-moving-70mph-seven-MILES-away.html#v-3550733335001

I was picturing something like this.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3vgmSc6ApQc

Or other examples out there.

However, I certainly respect your SME status and I'll leave it at that.

[Byron]

I was picturing something like this.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3vgmSc6ApQc

Or other examples out there.

I'm willing to bet that truck came to a stop primarily because the driver applied brakes.

A driver who doesn't want to stop on the other hand...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4Fi7s0YMLQ

[BWT]

I'm willing to bet that truck came to a stop primarily because the driver applied brakes.

A driver who doesn't want to stop on the other hand...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4Fi7s0YMLQ

That's true as well.

[TR675]

Nevermind. Talk about me missing the point.

[Chuck Haggard]

I recall one night some of my troops chasing a four wheeled car driving on three wheels, it had been bouncing off of parked cars for several blocks due to being piloted by a drunk, after dude saw the cops behind him, which he noticed although he failed to notice being on three wheels and throwing a comet trail of sparks down the road, he went about ten more miles before the car vapor locked.

So, anyway, I guess my point was that 5.56/7.62 is less than .308, which is less than .50BMG, which is less than missiles.............

[Dagga Boy]

The only way to stop a vehicle is to present a barrier or equal opposite force.
I have seen vehicles with forward momentum fail to be stopped by just about everything in the US inventory.
The best hopes you have when engaging a VBIED is to disable the explosive, cause the driver to avert, or det the payload.
Option 3 isn't optimal, but at least might keep the boom from going off where it hurts the most.

I used to harp on my guys a lot.....if you want to stop a car, you need to shoot the driver. The "car" itself can take insane abuse (or next to nothing depending on what you hit), but I always saw good results with head shot drivers. This is why I like things like 12 ga. slug and 7.62x39 that tend to get through to the driver. I wouldn't waste either with an "engine block" shot when I can hit the "computer" behind the wheel.

[Failure2Stop]

I used to harp on my guys a lot.....if you want to stop a car, you need to shoot the driver. The "car" itself can take insane abuse (or next to nothing depending on what you hit), but I always saw good results with head shot drivers. This is why I like things like 12 ga. slug and 7.62x39 that tend to get through to the driver. I wouldn't waste either with an "engine block" shot when I can hit the "computer" behind the wheel.

Yuppers.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

[Chuck Haggard]

While cars are fun to shoot up, one rarely has to use deadly force against them, it is indeed the drivers one is shooting at

[BWT]

I used to harp on my guys a lot.....if you want to stop a car, you need to shoot the driver. The "car" itself can take insane abuse (or next to nothing depending on what you hit), but I always saw good results with head shot drivers. This is why I like things like 12 ga. slug and 7.62x39 that tend to get through to the driver. I wouldn't waste either with an "engine block" shot when I can hit the "computer" behind the wheel.

I'd agree.

In the very limited scope of dealing with VBIEDs in Afghanistan or Iraq. I'd say your best bet would probably be large reinforced barriers, that they must stop at or if they try to plow through, are far enough away from the individuals serving the checkpoint that they can neutralize the threat.

I won't go in great detail, because 1.) It's not my story or my profession and therefore I don't want to mis-represent the facts/incidents and 2.) it won't serve a lot of purpose.

However, small FOB's (Or, listening posts. I'm not certain of the exact vernacular, but it was certainly not a full size FOB) within the cities with things like only an armored gates, etc. protecting the soldiers inside from VBIED's were especially susceptible to that kind of attack.

That's a tough situation. It reminds me of the barriers that devastated the pursuit police cars in D.C. that were being deployed when that lady was driving around D.C. trying to get to the President last year (I think). You really need something of that magnitude.

Interesting discussion for certain. I think that vehicles can be eventually disabled with most small arms, but, like F2S' illustrated. Not many things will stop one dead in it's tracks. Short of a missile that's about the same size as the truck (depending on where it hits).

By the way... What did Toyota Tacoma's ever do to you sir? How dare you post that Toyota carnage here. ;)

ETA: They even devastated an F250. They couldn't shoot up one soccer mom mini-van or Prius?