Considering P30V3 DA/SA - Cocked/Locked?

[JLeePhoto]

I've never much considered DA/SA weapons as learning to manipulate two different triggers on one gun just didn't make much sense to me. I've done most of my training with Glocks and have some experience with the 1911 platform.
However, I had the chance to shoot a HK P30 V3 recently and immediately was impressed by the ergonomics and shoot ability. My current all round CCW, bedside, and (rarely) USPSA comp gun is a G19. But, I also feel comfortable carrying S/S cocked/locked. Now I'm debating trading the Glock kit and maybe one of my HiPowers for a P30 set-up.
I've handled the H&K LEM triggers and am not confident I would like it. The option of a de-cocker and safety also seems good when left in a bed stand or off body carry. But, I'd want to carry cocked with safety on. So, the question is is there any problem with running a HK P30V3 cocked & locked? If I were to begin competing more in USPSA or IDPA is this allowed? Honestly trying to talk myself out of switching over to the HK platform but it seems I have the bug.
Your thoughts appreciated.

[GJM]

Not a fan of the safety position on the P30.

Hammer down start in Production, not sure in SSP.

[jlw]

Not a fan of the safety position on the P30.

Hammer down start in Production, not sure in SSP.

Hammer down in SSP, but cocked-n-locked would be okay for ESP.

[JLeePhoto]

Got it. Hammer down except in ESP. So, to use in USPSA Production I'd have to put some serious practice in with the D/A trigger. It seems like most folks here are going with a LEM version of the P30, is this the reason why or other considerations? Any issues carrying the P30 cocked and locked? Just trying to reason out the right choice.

[Default.mp3]

I carried my HK45 (converted to V9), and now my P30LS V3, exclusively cocked-and-locked. Haven't had much issue besides some minor blistering at the base of the thumb during round intensive classes, and that can most likely attributable to my atrociously weak grip strength at the time. As for the position of the safety, I never had an issue (Hell, it helps keep my strong thumb off the slide release lever), but the caveat to that is that I've never shot anything else (I've probably less than 100 rounds combined through all handguns that weren't my HK45 and P30LS). Some people that have handled my gun have found it to be fine, others hated it; personally, I like having that ledge there is an index point, but that's probably just a familiarity issue.

My rationale for cocked-and-locked over LEM is that LEM wasn't as widespread at the time when I picked up the guns, and a lot of people downed on it, while cocked-and-locked would make the guns kinda like a high-capacity, reliable 1911 facsimile. I suspect the preference for LEM here is that is simplifies the manual of arms compared to cocked-and-locked, while simultaneously bypassing H&K's stereotypically mediocre DA triggers. There is certainly more to do with a safety, but I think training can easily overcome that (I am quite confident in my safety manipulations, and it's often second nature), and I have no regrets in skipping LEM and DA/SA for carrying cocked-and-locked.

[JAD]

When I have had the same thought, I have done the following test (I seem to do this every decade or so): at the gun store, go from ready to pointed in repeatedly. When the gun is up, the safety goes off; go to ready, safety goes on. If that sucks for you done 20 times quickly, there may be other options or approaches. This presumes that you, like me, think that a gun that is not pointed at somebody should be on safe or decocked as the case may be.

[JLeePhoto]

When I have had the same thought, I have done the following test (I seem to do this every decade or so): at the gun store, go from ready to pointed in repeatedly. When the gun is up, the safety goes off; go to ready, safety goes on. If that sucks for you done 20 times quickly, there may be other options or approaches. This presumes that you, like me, think that a gun that is not pointed at somebody should be on safe or decocked as the case may be.

I have no problem with the manual of arms for a S/A weapon. My first was a Browning HiPower so manipulating a safety comes surprisingly natural even after years of carrying a Glock. However, that heavy DA to SA transition is gonna throw my first shots. Looks like I'm gonna have to look closer at all the LEM versions which right now seem pretty confusing to me.

[TheTrevor]

I suspect the preference for LEM here is that is simplifies the manual of arms compared to cocked-and-locked, while simultaneously bypassing H&K's stereotypically mediocre DA triggers.

Yes and yes.

LEM simplifies trigger/safety management, at the expense of a trigger pull that's not like anything else out there. It can be more challenging to master, though IMHO it's been proven that you can master the LEM trigger. Running a LEM gun single-handed against short-exposure/low-probability targets is definitely more challenging than any other trigger system.

Knowing what I know now, here's what I'd do if buying a P30:

Carry: P30 LEM with the V4/TGS spring setup EXCEPT with the heavy firing-pin block spring (to give a tactile cue right before the break)
Competition: P30LS V3, ideally with a Gray Guns action job

The DA trigger isn't bad, it just isn't great. I could absolutely live with it in competition, and I would be motivated to get reasonably good at DA shots due certain classifiers where the very first shot is a low-probability target.

Hope this helps.

[JAD]

Right. I meant, can you do that safety manipulation comfortably with a P30. I can't.


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[TheTrevor]

When I have had the same thought, I have done the following test (I seem to do this every decade or so): at the gun store, go from ready to pointed in repeatedly. When the gun is up, the safety goes off; go to ready, safety goes on. If that sucks for you done 20 times quickly, there may be other options or approaches. This presumes that you, like me, think that a gun that is not pointed at somebody should be on safe or decocked as the case may be.

Interestingly, I used to absolutely hate the HK safety lever. It was one of my motivations for going to LEM.

Then I shot only LEM HKs for a year, until earlier this week. I rented a USPc v1 (TDA) and, shockingly, found that my grip and thumb position had evolved enough in a year of heavy shooting that while I didn't love it, I didn't hate it like I used to. The moral of the story here is that it's definitely possible to adjust to the HK lever, but it may not happen in 20 reps right there in the store.

Now that recent HKs have moved the decock function off of the safety lever, I'd very much like to see someone make an aftermarket 1911-like HK lever with a nice thumb engagement surface. If I had any TDA HKs left in the safe I'd buy a spare lever and prototype it myself.

[JLeePhoto]

Right. I meant, can you do that safety manipulation comfortably with a P30. I can't.


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Ah, gotcha. Looks like I need more hands on experience with both versions before I decide on a change. My confusion is clearing but reading through previous threads, it seems that while most folks love the pointability, grip & reliability of the P30, major adjustments may be needed to deal with the manipulation of controls and in trigger pull.

[TheTrevor]

Ah, gotcha. Looks like I need more hands on experience with both versions before I decide on a change. My confusion is clearing but reading through previous threads, it seems that while most folks love the pointability, grip & reliability of the P30, major adjustments may be needed to deal with the manipulation of controls and in trigger pull.

That has been my experience, yes. :)

Keep in mind that it also depends on how you're going to be using the gun. One of my performance standards is a consistent sub-1.40s draw to freestyle first shot on an 8" target at 7yd, with a solid grip allowing immediate re-engagement or transition to other targets. Many of the P30 "issues" we've discussed recently crop up when you're pushing hard at the edge of the performance envelope, but aren't in evidence when running the gun at a lesser pace. I can do a 1.80s D1 (draw, shoot 1) all day long with bare, sweaty hands, haphazard trigger management on the press-out, and any combination of grip panels on the P30 -- it's when I start pushing for speed that of that stuff becomes a factor.

[JLeePhoto]

That has been my experience, yes. :)
... Many of the P30 "issues" we've discussed recently crop up when you're pushing hard at the edge of the performance envelope, but aren't in evidence when running the gun at a lesser pace. I can do a 1.80s D1 (draw, shoot 1) all day long with bare, sweaty hands, haphazard trigger management on the press-out, and any combination of grip panels on the P30 -- it's when I start pushing for speed that of that stuff becomes a factor.

Fair enough point Trevor. Most members of this forum will be pushing their weapons harder than I ever will, but like to think I will have the time, funds, and discipline train that hard at some point to those experiences are precisely why I lurk here.

[GJM]

If I wasn't sure whether I wanted LEM, DA/SA and a thumb safety or not, I would at least consider a USP Compact, which has a better trigger, and can be converted to the various configurations unlike the P30. My USP C has over the years migrated from DA/SA with TS, to LEM with TS, to just LEM with no TS.

If your interest is primarily competition, as opposed to carry, I would stay with your 19 or buy a 34/17, and save yourself a lot of angst.

[tmoore912]

I don't want to derail this thread, and hopefully I won't.

I am a new inexperienced HK P30S owner. I have carried and trained with 1911s in the past, so the TS is something I am familiar with using. I have just started training with the P30S, and I have some questions.

1. Can the P30S model use the longer slide release that HK has on the other P30 models? My frame indention that the slide release sits in still has some room left to possibly allow the longer slide release. The longer one might possibly make my reloads more consistent, since a keep missing the release sometimes by not getting enough thumb on it.

2. Is there any reason to mess with the trigger springs to make the DA pull easier? My main carry condition will be cocked and locked. The SA trigger pull seems usable.

Coming from a Glock 19 carried AIWB, this hasn't been easy...................but dry firing repetitions has helped things come together a little.

Picture of my frame and slide indention.

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/HK%20P30S/IMG_20140504_133126_613.jpg (http://s265.photobucket.com/user/tmoore912/media/HK%20P30S/IMG_20140504_133126_613.jpg.html)

[TheTrevor]

You might want to ask Staff to split that post off into its own thread.

[JLeePhoto]

I don't want to derail this thread, and hopefully I won't.

Coming from a Glock 19 carried AIWB, this hasn't been easy...................but dry firing repetitions has helped things come together a little.

Picture of my frame and slide indention.


GJM: I'm NOT primarily interested in competition. In fact, I'm far from being at a level where I could actually be competitive. Gun games for me are simply another training opportunity. Primary use would be SD/Carry. I've spent some time adjusting to the grip profile of the Glock but they don't point naturally to me. I recently started shooting my 1911s and HiPowers again and have been impressed that the sights come on line much more automatically. The HKs seem similar in pointability and is my primary reason for considering the P90.

Tmoore912, Since you're coming from a G19 background, maybe you can give me some impressions from your switch? Based on the responses here, I'm not sure I'm ready to do the same. Really think I'm gonna need more hands on experience with it.

[tmoore912]

JLeePhoto,

I'm not in the league of most of these other posters in this forum, but I'll try and give my opinion on the P30S. I've only had the gun for 2 weeks and have had 3 shooting sessions with it. Total of about 600 rounds along with about 10 days of 10-15 minute dry fire sessions and practicing reloads.

At this point I haven't figured out which grip set up is best. I have the smallest inserts in now, because I have been missing the slide release on reloads. This is somewhat caused by me not having to slightly break my grip and rotate the gun to drop the mag since the trigger finger is now dropping the mag. (I would have to rotate the gun in my hand slightly to drop the mag on the Glocks, but this made it easier to hit the slide release once the mag was seated.)

Since the trigger finger is dropping the mag and I'm not having to adjust my shooting grip, I am ever so slightly missing the slide release because the TS is slightly in the way and I don't have long fingers. That's why I'm hoping the other(regular size) P30 slide release can be used with this version of the gun. If not, then I'll have to start going over the top and slingshot the slide that way.

The trigger: No way right now I can be accurate with the DA unless it's slow deliberate aiming. SA is usable. Decent amount of take up (I had to get use to this), but breaks pretty cleanly for me. Accuracy is better than the Glock, but that is probably caused by my trigger press and not the gun. The SA accuracy is on par with 1911s I've used.

Everything feels right, so it's just working out the kinks right now. I don't shoot competitions, so this gun is for carry. I don't know if I made the right choice with this version, but I got a good deal on it. If I need to sell it to try a different version then I shouldn't lose much. I'm hoping that isn't the case though.