Primary Gun / Backup Gun

[NorthernHeat]

I currently carry a M&P 5'' Pro on duty and am happy with it, but I like the idea of having a backup gun that is the same platform/ manual of arms as my primary.

I have some Glock Gen 4s and also like them (possible combo of 17/19 and a 26).

I was also looking at the P30 LEM so I would look at the P2000SK as a backup.

I have looked at the M&P Compact as a backup to my M&P 5'' Pro, but have heard its almost Glock 19 size which might be a little too big.

I currently carry a Kahr CM9 and having a backup gun AT ALL is better than no backup gun, but has anybody had good experiences with any of the listed combos/ think one is better than the others? (M&P, Glock, HK)

It is more about what combo is best than what individual gun is best I guess...

Thanks guys

[breakingtime91]

I like a j frame as a backup, I imagine if it ever has to be employed it may be while grappling or fighting up close.

[MD7305]

I imagine commonality of magazines is one of the things your trying to achieve but the Shield may be a consideration if you're happy with the M&P platform. A neighboring agency switched to M&Ps recently and many found that the M&Pc was too large for a BUG so many of those folks went to the Shield and seem happy with them. I would think magazine commonality would be a good thing but you would have to weight the expense to having to invest in a totally new platform (pistols, holsters, mags, etc.).

My agency forbids BUGs so I envy your dilemma.

[rd62]

You could give the S&W Shield a look as a backup to your existing M&P.

I'm pretty fond of the Glock 17/19/26 combo as I'm already invested in supporting carry gear and I appreciate that they can all use the magazines from the 17.

That's just personal preference though and I think it'd be difficult to quantify one being the best. Better for your application maybe but not for someone else's.

[NorthernHeat]

I have looked at the shield and a couple officers carry it and really like it.

I just CANT get over that manual thumb safety that it has.

I have heard people say "its small and will stay off' but when this thing is in my pocket or on my ankle (if it must be) I really don't want to try and deploy it to find a dead trigger because of a manual safety., no matter how small the chances...

I have heard rumors of S&W making a LEO model with no thumb safety for years now but like most stuff I will have to see it to believe it is real.

I carried a J frame (LCR actually) for the first 4 years and really liked it for pocket carry as a backup but just recently switched to the Kahr for 2 more rounds with flush fit mag and little easier to reload (if carried off duty).

You are correct that in a perfect world I would like the magazines to interchange also, but I know that in a perfect world my backup to my primary gun would be another full size primary gun!

[NorthernHeat]

"My agency forbids BUGs so I envy your dilemma"-MD7305


This is Texas, I think my agency forbids NOT having at least 1 backup gun:cool: (yes there are multiple officers that carry 2 BUG's where I work)

[breakingtime91]

Ya the extra two rounds are for sure nice. I debated getting rid of my LCR until I started doing ground fighting with a group of friends. During those fights I can't imagine a better option then a snubby for that kid of physical altercation.

[NorthernHeat]

Ya the extra two rounds are for sure nice. I debated getting rid of my LCR until I started doing ground fighting with a group of friends. During those fights I can't imagine a better option then a snubby for that kid of physical altercation.

I did find with my LCR while I was dry firing/ ground fighting with it I was not letting the trigger reset all the way while trying to get the rounds off quickly in a ground fighting/ backup gun situation... but that is more of a training issue.

[breakingtime91]

I did find with my LCR while I was dry firing/ ground fighting with it I was not letting the trigger reset all the way while trying to get the rounds off quickly in a ground fighting/ backup gun situation... but that is more of a training issue.

Ya that trigger is really smooth but the reset can be tricky lol

[NorthernHeat]

Ya that trigger is really smooth but the reset can be tricky lol

YES!

The trigger is really nice and smooth, but about 2 rounds in I would feel a grinding and the cylinder would slowly turn, but I could tell something was off and realized I was not letting the trigger all the way out.

This was one of the first things that kinda got me looking around for alternatives for a BUG to the LCR....

[breakingtime91]

Modified bill drill will get you over that if you ever go back to that gun. I ran that from the holster a lot and now have no issue with it.

[NorthernHeat]

Maybe channel my inner Jerry Miculek and FASTest it....:D

[breakingtime91]

Wouldn't that be great.. Dude is insane. Sorry for the slight derail.

[taadski]

It sounds to me like you have a pretty good handle on the matter already.

The first order of business is having a bug you'll carry daily and it sounds like the Kahr is achieving that for you. I'm personally a big believer in the commonality of platform thing. I'd much prefer to have a bug that has the same trigger, manual of arms, sight picture, etc... as my primary. And I'm not willing to roll the dice and assume the only type deployment of such a weapon will be in an entangled fight (while that's an obvious possibility). I prefer to have it be as shootable as absolutely possible and most folks don't shoot subcompact guns nearly as well as they do compact or full sized ones.

It seems to me the obvious choice is the M&Pc, especially when you factor in the magazine commonality to your primary. Perhaps a Shield if the size thing turns out to be that big an issue for you? Re size, I carry a BUG of a similar size to the compact M&P (and quite a bit heavier) on duty every day without issue and have been for just shy of 15 years. I'm not a large guy, as those on here that know me can attest. I've found it working adequately to be more a function of the carry mode and location than anything.

t

[NorthernHeat]

taadski,

The Kahr is working well for having a backup that just slips into the pocket and you forget it there, but I am not thrilled about the Kahr for a couple aspects.

First, the magazines of the Kahr have much to be desired and this makes me uneasy about the feeding of the gun in general (even though I have had no failures with the Kahr).

Also I think the M&PC/ baby Glocks really give a feel of a full size gun in a sub-compact package and I really like that feel for a backup gun that is going to be put to "hard use".

I currently have a couple M&Ps (4.25'' Pro and 5'' Pro) but also have some Glocks (Gen 4 17, Gen 4 19, Gen 4 26) but the wife carries the G26 so if I take that as a backup she will get something else.

I enjoy both the Gen 4 Glocks and the M&Ps as far as the full size guns go, I guess its more of a fact of which plays a better role as a backup gun, the M&PC vs the Glock 26 when it comes to mag capacity, ergos, method of carry (specifically as a backup) ETC....

One thing that draws me toward the Glock 26 is Galco makes the Ankle Glove for it which I have heard is one of the better ankle rigs while the Ankle Glove is not available for the M&P Compact...

And yea, I know I already own the Glock 26, but the wife is very fond of it and it will not be pulled away from her easily if that is my choice.

I guess it is the fact of a couple small problems with each holding me back from choosing one of them outright.

[NorthernHeat]

Can anybody with a M&P compact comment about its size as a BUG?

It will be either ankle carry or pocket carry (either upper left pocket or cargo pocket)...

[Chuck Whitlock]

You may run into issues with individual guns, as well.

Agency that I retired from only authorized G22/23/27. G27 was authorized as BUG. I'd bought one prior to that rule being implemented and had no issues qualifying on the same PPC COF as it's big brother. But I never really liked shooting it. I thought that it might be different in 9mm. Upon retirement, I traded if for an early G26 (smooth finger grooves on frontstrap) and dropped a SL 9mm conversion barrel in my G23. both sporting the same Ameriglo sights and NY1/(-) connector.

The 26 and I just don't interface. 25 yd POI is dead on with the G23/9, Kahr CW9, and Ruger SP101 (130gr. +P Win. PDX-1). The G26 @25 yds puts the rounds 4-5 inches to 11:00 from POA. And shooting it just isn't as pleasant as the G23/9 or CM9. My smallish hands probably have a lot to do with it, but I've concluded that the 26 just doesn't give me anything that the other two don't do better.

[NorthernHeat]

Another note to add in is that a big thing that I like about the M&P is the trigger reach.

I have medium sized hands (large palms and short fingers/short trigger finger) so the shorter trigger reach on the M&Ps is very comfortable for me...

The Gen 4 Glocks helped this vs the Gen 3 Glock trigger reach, but the trigger reach on the M&P is still more comfortable...

[DocGKR]

I find very little difference in when carrying a either a G26 or M&P9c as a BUG for uniformed LE use.

For off duty carry, I prefer the M&P9c or G19 over the G26.

[Trukinjp13]

I felt the m&p/c was too big for backup carry. Esp. Ankle carry. I love my shield and it rides nice in my die hard ankle rig. I have never had a problem with the safety. I also shoot the shield better then I did my m&p/c. Ymmv. I think the g17 with g26 makes a good combo. Or just run the kahr as a backup to the g17. Similiar feel but obviously trigger is a lot different.

[NorthernHeat]

I find very little difference in when carrying a either a G26 or M&P9c as a BUG for uniformed LE use.

For off duty carry, I prefer the M&P9c or G19 over the G26.


What is your preferred carry method for the M&Pc for BUG purposes?... specifically in full LEO uniform?

[Beat Trash]

I am issued a M&P9 as a primary arm. (Uniform Patrol) I tried using a M&P9c for a BUG, the theory being that it would use the same magazines. It was just a bit too big to carry, as I am mandated to carry my BUG on some type of vest holster. (I use a cheap Uncle Mikes vest holster under the velcro side straps on my weak hand side - BUG drawn with weak hand in case primary hand injured and or occupied)

I played around with various guns, to include a J Frame 642. I ended up with a 9mm Shield. I found that I can carry it with the 8 rd magazine in the gun and conceal it as well as the 7 rd flush fitting mag. The 8 rd mag gives my hand more to grab ahold of when in a hurry, during the draw of the gun. I carry a spare 8 rd magazine with the sleeve removed in my pants pocket. This setup works well for me.

If the only need for a BUG was as a "Get off me gun" then I'd go with my 642 and be done with it. But I may also find the need for the BUG arise from being injured in the primary hand, or the main gun goes down for whatever reason. If the engagement distance is more than contact distance, say a could of car length away (think a traffic stop gone really bad), than my ability to put rounds on target under stress goes way up with the Shield vs. my 642 (laser grips are not authorized).

The safety on my Shield is a non-issue. I've messed around with it, and I really do not see it becoming activated accidentally. I actually had to remove the safety lever when installing an Apex sear in the Shield. Once I figures out how it was done, it's stupid easy to do so. I chose to put it back on. If you have it removed, all you will have would be a small hole in the frame where the safety protruded. You could fill with hole with something if it bothered you.

We work a minimum of a 10 hour day. Comfort also has to play a factor in your gear. Otherwise it could be a long 25 years.

I knew when the Shield was working for me, when during a hectic day, I couldn't remember putting my BUG on while getting dressed. I had to pat my side to feel if it was there. It was...

[NorthernHeat]

I felt the m&p/c was too big for backup carry. Esp. Ankle carry. I love my shield and it rides nice in my die hard ankle rig. I have never had a problem with the safety. I also shoot the shield better then I did my m&p/c. Ymmv. I think the g17 with g26 makes a good combo. Or just run the kahr as a backup to the g17. Similiar feel but obviously trigger is a lot different.

How did you feel the M&Pc was too big? IE too heavy, too large footprint, or just all around too big and heavy?

[DocGKR]

Depending on what I was doing either a J-frame on the ankle and/or pocket or when using a compact pistol it was on the soft armor carrier.

[Trukinjp13]

How did you feel the M&Pc was too big? IE too heavy, too large footprint, or just all around too big and heavy?

All of the above. The shield is lighter and a lot thinner. Im not a leo so carrying the compact as a bug in street clothes was a issue for me. The shield works well in cargo pants pockets. It conceals very easily iwb and I really dig the ankle carry. I have a j-frame I carry sometimes but I prefer the shield over the j-frame. I shoot a lot better with it, hits harder and carries more ammo.

[NorthernHeat]

I like having a J-frame/ Kahr in the Other Strong Hand Pocket ( I carry my Kahr that way now) but like the idea of having that M&Pc/ baby Glock on my body somewhere (maybe an ankle or on vest) to be able to use it if my primary is not able to be used for some reason.

Other things is we are being given the option now of wearing a outer vest on patrol and it does not have the zipper up front to be able to get to a backup gun that is worn on the body armor...

Thank you all for the help so far!

[taadski]

For me both the compact Glocks and the M&Pc are too big to carry in a pocket. In my experience they're also starting to push the size of what can be carried comfortably on the ankle. I used to carry a Sig 239 (same size-ish, but quite a bit heavier) in an Ankle Glove and while I made it work for a number of years found it a relief to get it off my leg and up on my torso.

Perhaps it'd be better fodder for another thread but I'll just note that it's interesting watching folks work at accessing their chosen bug locations while roll playing in an entangled (ECQC) type fight. My experience is that ankle and pocket carry locations don't fare quite as well as folks might think under those circumstances. Similarly, it's eye opening to put a variety of BUG positions on the clock. Not that time is an end all, but I've had a number of students and coworkers make changes after some "real world" vetting along these lines. Just FWIW.

t

[NorthernHeat]

I guess another question (possibly another topic) is if a BUG like a baby Glock or M&Pc is desired, what is the preferred method of carry for it as a BUG when they are that "large" of a backup gun?

[Rich]

I like a j frame as a backup, I imagine if it ever has to be employed it may be while grappling or fighting up close.

I will always use a S&W J frame (NO exposed hammer) for a back up.

[Trukinjp13]

I guess another question (possibly another topic) is if a BUG like a baby Glock or M&Pc is desired, what is the preferred method of carry for it as a BUG when they are that "large" of a backup gun?

I had a galco triton iwb for the m&p/c. It was not the fanciest but it did a good job and the price was right. If you can carry on a vest or something it would be sweet. I did like the fact it had a rail for a compact light if necessary. As a leo you are more likely than me to need the extra rounds a g26 holds or the m&p/c then say a shield or j-frame. Next to my kahr p380 my frame is ridiculously easy to carry because of the weight. One problem I had as someone mentioned was my j-frame is a 637 so it has a hammer. I can see the major advantage of the 642 or a lcr w/o the hammer for carry.

[BarneyCallahan]

For most of my career I carried a model 60 (j frame) in my left rear pants pocket, in a leather pocket holster. I found it very comforting and easy to access discreetly under most circumstances. For me (and many others I knew) ankle carry was not practical. In the real world of big city police work foot pursuits involving fences and walls were all to frequent. In such circumstances ankle carry was a liability.

There was a time when I carried a second gun (a 92f) under my right arm attached to my vest. I had my shirts modified with snaps so I could access it quickly with my left (weak) hand. I did this because I was working alone most of that time and I preferred carrying my 6" revolver in a Hoyt swivel break front (secure and fast). The downside to this location is that an opponent may see you reaching for it. In the back pocket you have a better chance of deploying it before your opponent knows (IMHO).

In the revolver days many guys carried a j frame strong side aiwb, outside their shirt with only very little of the grip showing, for a quick 5 more rounds. I always preferred to be able to get to my second gun easily with my off hand in case my right hand wasn't working or to defend myself in a struggle to retain my primary weapon.

Even with all the great semi-autos available now, I think some kind of revolver is the best bug. Unless you want to carry 3 (2 autos and 1 revolver for contact work?).

[psalms144.1]

I carry a Glock as a primary, and a PM9 as a BUG. I find that the triggers are similar ENOUGH that they don't give me fits. I shot my PM9 for the first time in over 6 months last week, and shot a 298/300 on our qual with little effort on my part.

The theory of interchangeable magazines is a good one, IF you can stand the bulk of a double-stack pistol as your BUG (which typically means it needs to be concealed). I found that the G26 was just blocky and HEAVY enough (loaded) that it didn't conceal well or comfortably for me, given my mode of dress on a routine basis. I then kept it around for a couple of months as my "summer" gun, but found that, quite frankly, any clothing loose enough to conceal the G26 would also conceal my G19, and I shoot the G19 A LOT better than the G26. So, off she went to another agent who, due to her VERY compact dimensions, can't comfortably conceal the 19/23...

The M&Pc is in the same boat, only it's even larger than the G26. For me, a real BUG = a single stack 9mm or a j-frame revolver in winter months (when my BUG moves to my vest pocket off my ankle). The only time I could realistically see feeding a primary and a BUG from the same magazine were if Bill brainwashed me into transitioning back to 1911s, and I ended up with a lightweight "officers" sized pistol as my BUG.

Regards,

Kevin

[NorthernHeat]

I was thinking about the combo of having a larger BUG like a Glock 26/M&P compact somewhere more comfortable/ concealed like the vest area so you are able to feed your larger primary pistol mags, but also having for example a J-Frame in a spot that is easily accessed like a pocket...

This way you would have a BUG that feeds the primary mags if you loose your primary gun or it breaks ETC but you would also have a 5-shot for those "get off me" times.

I actually like the idea of having a 5 shot maybe attached to the duty belt but carried AIWB with a tuck-able strut that maybe you could blouse the uniform shirt over and have a almost "hiding in plain sight" type of thing going.

Just some thoughts...

[taadski]

I actually like the idea of having a 5 shot maybe attached to the duty belt but carried AIWB with a tuck-able strut that maybe you could blouse the uniform shirt over and have a almost "hiding in plain sight" type of thing going.

This is similar to what I do daily except with the backup auto pistol as opposed to the j-frame. It's in a dedicated tuckable AIWB rig. It sits under the uniform shirt but in front of my vest. It's FAST, conceals very well, is accessible with both hands, etc… I know some cops can't stomach (:p) the idea of having something else on their waistline, especially stuffed down their pants, but it works very well for me and it mimics my off duty carry location so there's not another draw to learn. Of course the location carries with it all the standard "be carefuls" associated with AIWB, especially with a striker fired pistol.


t

[NorthernHeat]

This is similar to what I do daily except with the backup auto pistol as opposed to the j-frame. It's in a dedicated tuckable AIWB rig. It sits under the uniform shirt but in front of my vest. It's FAST, conceals very well, is accessible with both hands, etc… I know some cops can't stomach (:p) the idea of having something else on their waistline, especially stuffed down their pants, but it works very well for me and it mimics my off duty carry location so there's not another draw to learn. Of course the location carries with it all the standard "be carefuls" associated with AIWB, especially with a striker fired pistol.


t

Which type of auto do you find works best for that? Would a Glock 26/ M&Pcompact work for that or only a Kahr/ single stack semi auto type in your experience?

Does it cause a lot of problems running/ bumping into other gear?

I have thought about running it directly up front near my mag pouch...

Also what is the holster you are using if you don't mind me asking?

[taadski]

I carry the same Sig P239 I mentioned before. It has as big or a little bigger a footprint than either of those two. It's basically the same width as the M&PC. The 26 is a touch narrower than both actually. No issues bumping any other gear. It sits at 1230-1300 behind a double cuff case.

I use a Comptac Minataur appendix version in this role. I bought it years ago and don't use it anymore for normal AIWB carry b/c it doesn't have any features that tuck the butt of the gun in much. But since on duty it has to fit my vest behind it, I've found that it works very well.

In fact, I bought one of JM's new kydex tuckable holsters some months ago to try and upgrade and while it works great for normal appendix carry, it didn't play as well with the ballistic vest in place due to how aggressively it wedges into the body. I went back to the Comptac for BUG carry.

Hopefully that makes sense.

[NorthernHeat]

I carry the same Sig P239 I mentioned before. It has as big or a little bigger a footprint than either of those two. It's basically the same width as the M&PC. The 26 is a touch narrower than both actually. No issues bumping any other gear. It sits at 1230-1300 behind a double cuff case.

I use a Comptac Minataur appendix version in this role. I bought it years ago and don't use it anymore for normal AIWB carry b/c it doesn't have any features that tuck the butt of the gun in much. But since on duty it has to fit my vest behind it, I've found that it works very well.

In fact, I bought one of JM's new kydex tuckable holsters some months ago to try and upgrade and while it works great for normal appendix carry, it didn't play as well with the ballistic vest in place due to how aggressively it wedges into the body. I went back to the Comptac for BUG carry.

Hopefully that makes sense.

Yes it makes sense and it is kinda exactly what I have been looking on the net for info about but could not find anybody doing it previously.

I wear my 2 shot Tazer (larger of the Tazers) up front with double mag pouch just behind that and was thinking that I would be able to get a holster behind that but between my body/body armor and the Tazer/ mag pouch.

Do you attach the holster to the actual duty belt or attach it to the under belt when you put your pants on and cinch up the under belt?

And your right, I guess a holster that keeps the grip up above the waistline and does NOT tuck the grip too much against the armor would be most desired huh?...

[taadski]

Do you attach the holster to the actual duty belt or attach it to the under belt when you put your pants on and cinch up the under belt?

And your right, I guess a holster that keeps the grip up above the waistline and does NOT tuck the grip too much against the armor would be most desired huh?...

It rides on the inner belt, duty shirt tucked.

Yes, I've played around with several "newer breed" AIWB holsters in this role and I've found that when the vest pushes the butt of the pistol out, the muzzle end digs in more than is comfortable on me. So a holster that conceals well under normal AIWB conditions may not be comfortable with the vest in play. Of course, YMMV, given body type differences, etc...

Check out this thread for a couple pics and some discussion:

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9027-Single-stack-9mm-AIWB-with-a-tucked-in-shirt-can-it-be-done&highlight=taadski+aiwb

[NorthernHeat]

It rides on the inner belt, duty shirt tucked.

Yes, I've played around with several "newer breed" AIWB holsters in this role and I've found that when the vest pushes the butt of the pistol out, the muzzle end digs in more than is comfortable on me. So a holster that conceals well under normal AIWB conditions may not be comfortable with the vest in play. Of course, YMMV, given body type differences, etc...

Check out this thread for a couple pics and some discussion:

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9027-Single-stack-9mm-AIWB-with-a-tucked-in-shirt-can-it-be-done&highlight=taadski+aiwb

Thank you very much sir for that info and the thread link...

[DocGKR]

When Pat Rogers was at NYPD, he carried a J-frame AIWB while in uniform in the same way behind a cuff case at 1230-1300: http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/old-school-gun.

[NorthernHeat]

What are thought on wearing a Glock 26 or M&P9c appendix in a Vanguard 2 Non-Holster attached to the under belt?...

Low profile, securely attaches to belt, holster does not take up much room and is tuck-able...

[taadski]

When Pat Rogers was at NYPD...


Every time I see Pat, at classes and otherwise, I make a point of hassling him about a book. I'm sure I'm not the only one but he never seems interested. :p It's a shame too 'cause I bet he could sell a couple thousand pre-copies before ever even starting to write. :cool:

t

[Blayglock]

You could give the S&W Shield a look as a backup to your existing M&P.

I'm pretty fond of the Glock 17/19/26 combo as I'm already invested in supporting carry gear and I appreciate that they can all use the magazines from the 17.

That's just personal preference though and I think it'd be difficult to quantify one being the best. Better for your application maybe but not for someone else's.

I find the shield a tad to large for ankle carry personally. I vote J-Frame as well.


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