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View Full Version : What separates the Masters from the rest of us



cclaxton
05-04-2014, 10:27 AM
Watching at least three top Master level shooters running Stage 4 of the Maryland State Match left me with some thoughts on what makes Master Level shooters be able to be match champions. I am not saying Experts or Sharpshooters are not great at the things below, but have not yet mastered them.

Masters know EXACTLY where to put their foot/body to avoid a cover call without any adjustment or delay.

Masters know IMMEDIATELY whether they were on target or not, and whether to do a makeup shot.

Masters have PERFECT restraint on challenging targets, knowing EXACTLY how much time they need to get good hits at 1 yard or 25 yards and anywhere in-between.

Masters have QUICK REACTION when they realize they are not behind cover or hear "Cover" and when they need to adjust to get a particular shot.

I think Expert shooters have perfected their grip, stance, sighting, targeting, and everything associated with knowing how to shoot accurately and at-speed. It is the Masters that have integrated all these other pieces together.

For me, I am still working on refining grip, sighting, and targeting.

Just my humble conclusion...
Cody

orionz06
05-04-2014, 10:37 AM
Agreed and would add that some people are just better and have more potential than others that no amount of practice and training can make up for. I was not in attendance but at the 2014 Rangemaster conference someone spoke to this. Hopefully it can be elaborated upon.

cclaxton
05-04-2014, 11:00 AM
Well, I do think having natural talent makes a big difference, but I do think it is possible to be as good, or better through training and practice. People with natural talent will often take shortcuts or think they don't need to practice as much. People with serious commitment of time and training will simply work harder. There are plenty of examples in with musicians such as violinists and guitarists. Jimi Hendrix had fantastic talent, but Joe Bonnamassa has exceeded Jimi's natural talent, for instance.

That being said: AGE and weight are big factors as well. I am 59 and 20 lbs overweight, I know other Master level shooters who are over 250lbs. We are definitely at a disadvantage. But *sometimes* age brings wisdom and experience and can win the day.
Cody

GJM
05-04-2014, 11:07 AM
I think the answer can be found in Gabe's post in the P30 thread. Set a goal, push through obstacles and work like crazy.

Failure2Stop
05-04-2014, 02:09 PM
IDPA Master = USPSA B/A

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cclaxton
05-04-2014, 02:39 PM
IDPA Master = USPSA B/A
Sonny is a Production Grand Master and Open Grand Master in USPSA. What was the purpose of your posting?
Cody

jetfire
05-04-2014, 02:44 PM
Sonny is a Production Grand Master and Open Grand Master in USPSA. What was the purpose of your posting?
Cody

The amount of shooting skill required to make IDPA Master is about consistent with the amount if shooting skill required to make mid-B class/low A-class in USPSA.

The amount of skill required to win at the IDPA national championship level is considerably higher than that. But just making master is a different story. I should know, I'm a five gun IDPA master and an A-class USPSA shooter. When I was shooting USPSA on the reg, I was close to getting my Master card, and I would have been very proud of that.

Al T.
05-04-2014, 03:15 PM
I do think it is possible to be as good, or better through training and practice.

Buddy of mine (who lurks here - Hi Bob!) (:D) is a GM or what ever the correct term. I've known him about 14 years and went shooting with him once. He is way. way more serious about about training than I am.

SpyderMan2k4
05-04-2014, 04:19 PM
When I trained with Manny Bragg last summer the first thing he said that sets them apart is movement and transitions. I'm going to agree. Its not moving quickly. Its moving, and stopping with your feet positioned perfectly for when you move again. It was truly impressive to watch.

Failure2Stop
05-04-2014, 04:38 PM
Sonny is a Production Grand Master and Open Grand Master in USPSA. What was the purpose of your posting?
Cody

Exactly what Caleb says below your question.

The skill gap in the IDPA master class is equivalent to the skill gap between USPSA B class and GM. Simply being an IDPA master gives little insight into how "good" of a shooter one is. This does not mean that no IDPA master is better than an A level USPSA shooter.

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cclaxton
05-04-2014, 06:10 PM
Exactly what Caleb says below your question.
The skill gap in the IDPA master class is equivalent to the skill gap between USPSA B class and GM. Simply being an IDPA master gives little insight into how "good" of a shooter one is. This does not mean that no IDPA master is better than an A level USPSA shooter.
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I think that depends on the SKILL you are talking about. I would agree that a USPSA may make someone better at the shooting skills, BUT if he/she doesn't practice and compete in IDPA (or a similar sport), it is difficult to just walk-on and be competitive in a Level 3/4 IDPA Match. The sports are different enough. For instance, in USPSA the limits of your foot placement is clearly defined by the shooting box/area. Very rarely are there shooting boxes in IDPA, and you must pick your placement based on cover. Also, I see USPSA guys dropping loaded mags because they forgot it is IDPA. But the people I see competing at that level are shooting both, so not sure why it even matters how classes match up for the two sports.
Cody

Failure2Stop
05-04-2014, 06:24 PM
1) I'm an IDPA "master"
2) You're the one that started a thread about how great IDPA masters are.
3) The guys that lead USPSA also lead IDPA.
4) It is way easier to go from USPSA to IDPA than vice versa.
5) I have no idea why this is an argument.

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littlejerry
05-04-2014, 07:31 PM
Well, I do think having natural talent makes a big difference, but I do think it is possible to be as good, or better through training and practice. People with natural talent will often take shortcuts or think they don't need to practice as much. People with serious commitment of time and training will simply work harder. There are plenty of examples in with musicians such as violinists and guitarists. Jimi Hendrix had fantastic talent, but Joe Bonnamassa has exceeded Jimi's natural talent, for instance.

That being said: AGE and weight are big factors as well. I am 59 and 20 lbs overweight, I know other Master level shooters who are over 250lbs. We are definitely at a disadvantage. But *sometimes* age brings wisdom and experience and can win the day.
Cody

My observation is that anyone who makes M or GM in USPSA is both naturally good and has worked their butt off to stay ahead of the curve. Anyone who can't check both boxes ain't gonna make it.

ST911
05-04-2014, 07:33 PM
4) It is way easier to go from USPSA to IDPA than vice versa.

Why is that? If covered elsewhere, a pointer is fine.

PPGMD
05-04-2014, 09:02 PM
The skill gap in the IDPA master class is equivalent to the skill gap between USPSA B class and GM. Simply being an IDPA master gives little insight into how "good" of a shooter one is. This does not mean that no IDPA master is better than an A level USPSA shooter.

These is also a HUGE skill gap between a just barely USPSA GM and a USPSA National Champion.

The only IDPA classifications that will typically have the skill level of a USPSA GM would be the IDPA Distinguished Masters. Though in almost all cases, IDPA DMs already are USPSA GMs.

Even GSSF concurs, they don't consider an IDPA Master good enough to get instantly ranked as a GSSF Master. While they take a USPSA, and NRA Master.

Failure2Stop
05-04-2014, 09:06 PM
Why is that? If covered elsewhere, a pointer is fine.

USPSA involves significantly more movement, problem solving, and longer stage execution plans/recoveries. In my experience, USPSA matches have both more marksmanship challenge and more competitive participants.

The IDPA classifier is a good test, but USPSA classifiers are more diverse and classify shooters based off of other shooters, not off of an assigned dividing line. Top shooters are turning in IDPA classifier overall times that are literally half of the time needed to reach "master".

The USPSA head "A Zone" is a tough shot for full points, the IDPA head "-0" is closer in size to the USPSA chest "A". If you shoot fast (and don't miss or tag no-shoots) at major PF, you aren't penalized as bad as IDPA, but if you're shooting minor (in other than production of course) you have far less leeway for misses to place well than a lot of people think.

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PPGMD
05-04-2014, 09:10 PM
The IDPA classifier is a good test, but USPSA classifiers are more diverse and classify shooters based off of other shooters, not off of an assigned dividing line. Top shooters are turning in IDPA classifier overall times that are literally half of the time needed to reach "master".

Also unless your MD tells you ahead of time (pretty rare) you don't know which classifier you are going to shoot, thus you can't practice it.

Failure2Stop
05-04-2014, 09:14 PM
These is also a HUGE skill gap between a just barely USPSA GM and a USPSA National Champion.

The only IDPA classifications that will typically have the skill level of a USPSA GM would be the IDPA Distinguished Masters. Though in almost all cases, IDPA DMs already are USPSA GMs.

Even GSSF concurs, they don't consider an IDPA Master good enough to get instantly ranked as a GSSF Master. While they take a USPSA, and NRA Master.

Yup.

There are certainly some very skilled IDPA shooters, but you can't consider every IDPA master to be the equivalent of a USPSA M or GM.

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DocGKR
05-05-2014, 02:04 AM
Well said.

Slavex
05-05-2014, 03:10 AM
what's even better is being a GM in your own country and then going to a World Shoot and having your ass handed to you, a few times over. I'd say the USA probably has the best GM class going, with the obvious exceptions from Europe. It would be nice to be able to shoot against those guys regularly.

rob_s
05-05-2014, 06:19 AM
How did this turn into yet another thread about USPSA v IDPA? At one time the membership here was above such childish nonsense.

Unless it was edited, I see nothing in the OP about one v the other, and unless you knew the particular match he was referring to was IDPA no mention of either game.

To the original point...

What sets truly top-level participants of any game apart is the ability to perform the minutiae on auto-pilot rather than having to think through every step. Mostly, that comes with experience. A brand new shooter having to count the steps of the draw in his head is no different than if someone were to hand Taran Butler a cricket bat.

jetfire
05-05-2014, 09:34 AM
what's even better is being a GM in your own country and then going to a World Shoot and having your ass handed to you, a few times over. I'd say the USA probably has the best GM class going, with the obvious exceptions from Europe. It would be nice to be able to shoot against those guys regularly.

I'd say that we have a largely crop of talented GMs than anywhere else, they just have that one guy who's better than everyone at everything.

Failure2Stop
05-05-2014, 01:45 PM
How did this turn into yet another thread about USPSA v IDPA? At one time the membership here was above such childish nonsense.

Unless it was edited, I see nothing in the OP about one v the other, and unless you knew the particular match he was referring to was IDPA no mention of either game.


Since I was the first one to bring up the "IDPA vs USPSA" thing, I will take that to be directed at me.
I brought it up simply to illustrate the differences in classifications between USPSA and IDPA, and why hailing "masters" in general as having the qualities discussed might not be as true as the OP believes. What he is saying is surely true of the individuals that he was observing, but that does not mean that all IDPA masters share the same competencies.

I knew he was talking about IDPA when he discussed "experts" and "sharpshooters" in the fashion that he did. USPSA does not have such classes. He also discussed the "Cover" rule, which is pretty exclusive to IDPA.
I'm not a detective, but I have played a gun game or two while staying at Holiday Inn Expresses.

I went into why I felt that USPSA builds a better competitor when asked directly.