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View Full Version : Saw a bullet go through exact same hole



cclaxton
05-04-2014, 09:22 AM
I was SO for Maryland State IDPA Sanctioned Match for Stage 4. I was running a shooter who I saw put a second round through the exact same hole. Upon examination you could not tell (without a magnifying glass) that the second round had gone through. But I saw the shooter line up his second shot and I saw the target virbrate at the same location where the first round had hit. The target was an IDPA paper target at about 9 yards. Upon inspection the hole was a tiny bit oval, but normally I would have not called it a hit.

I wouldn't have believed it unless I saw it myself. But with tens of thousands of rounds going downrange and master level shooters it is bound to happen sometime.

Cody

2alpha-down0
05-04-2014, 09:27 AM
I did the same thing the other week while shooting Dot Torture. The only way you could tell that a second round had passed through was from the significantly darker grease ring.


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DocGKR
05-04-2014, 03:00 PM
I have seen it a number of times now when shooting RDS equipped pistols.

jetfire
05-04-2014, 03:07 PM
I get perfect doubles all the time, the dumb RO just keeps calling them Alfa/mike.

jlw
05-04-2014, 03:18 PM
Last year I shot an IDPA match in which a shooter kept arguing that his misses were perfect doubles. I don't know if he meant to be funny or serious, but he kept doing it. Finally, one of the other guys on the squad offered him $100 if he could shoot a perfect double on demand. The claims stopped.

Tamara
05-04-2014, 03:28 PM
I'm a lousy shot and thought I'd blown a round completely off the backer today in Dot Torture, despite having seen the sights lift on what looked like a good clean hit, until I noticed that one of the holes in dot #4 was ever so slightly ovoid. It happens. I'll bet the guy in the OP couldn't do it on purpose on a bet.

gtmtnbiker98
05-04-2014, 03:57 PM
I've seen it several times and have done it a few times, myself.

JM Campbell
05-04-2014, 07:07 PM
Nope not once...I believe every bullet needs it's own hole...it the Obama craze these days.

;)

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Chris Rhines
05-04-2014, 07:16 PM
I had this happen at the PNTC USPSA match just yesterday. One hole in the target, I fired twice and saw the front sight lift off twice. I wouldn't have called it a double myself, but upon close inspection the hole was a tiny bit ovaled out, and showed two distinct grease rings. It can happen.

ACP230
05-05-2014, 07:07 AM
I have done it shooting Bullseye with very accurate .45 ACP target pistols.
Usually on the short line (25 yards).

Not too many times, but I have done it.
Sometimes I didn't realize until a scorer at a match picked one up.

JeffJ
05-05-2014, 10:09 AM
IDPA doesn't use overlays, right? I shot a match this weekend and one target in my squad got called for an overlay - it failed. The shooter was pretty good about it, he was fairly certain he didn't completely miss the target but didn't push the issue.

jetfire
05-05-2014, 10:16 AM
IDPA doesn't use overlays, right? I shot a match this weekend and one target in my squad got called for an overlay - it failed. The shooter was pretty good about it, he was fairly certain he didn't completely miss the target but didn't push the issue.

Correct; IDPA's rule is that the benefit of the doubt should go to the shooter.

JeffJ
05-05-2014, 10:19 AM
While I understand not wanting to pull targets and whip everybody's ass with calls for overlays, it seems like the IPDA rule would really favor the loud mouth jerk.

jetfire
05-05-2014, 10:56 AM
While I understand not wanting to pull targets and whip everybody's ass with calls for overlays, it seems like the IPDA rule would really favor the loud mouth jerk.

"Benefit of the doubt" allows for discretion on the part of the SO. The guy that's always saying "that's a double" probably won't get it.

cclaxton
05-05-2014, 11:22 AM
"Benefit of the doubt" allows for discretion on the part of the SO. The guy that's always saying "that's a double" probably won't get it.
Reminds me of another call we had to make: The stage had a full-sized steel IDPA target with the 8" center cut out. The COF required the shooter to put two through the hole into the IDPA cardboard paper target aligned right behind it. The target was engaged from about 20 yards. We had one guy who had one good hit and another ripped hole that had a tiny amount of grease ring, but obviously went through sideways. I looked at the target very carefully, and told him my ruling was it was a ricochet off the steel, but I was willing to pull the target off and we could send it into IDPA HQ for a ruling if he wanted to contest it. The MD came over and asked about it. The shooter then got an attitude because the MD told him he agreed with my ruling. The shooter then touched the back of the target and pushed the rip forward and said, "But look there is more grease ring..." At that point the MD notified him that he had just touched the target and would receive a 10 down and a FTN or the original ruling of 5 down....his choice. Well you know what he chose! I thought the MD did a brilliant job of restraining himself from stopping the shooter touching the target. I thought it worked out fine. Most people got a down 5 or down 10 and FTN on that target...he was lucky.

Cody

jetfire
05-05-2014, 11:42 AM
The shooter then touched the back of the target and pushed the rip forward and said, "But look there is more grease ring..." At that point the MD notified him that he had just touched the target and would receive a 10 down and a FTN or the original ruling of 5 down....his choice. Well you know what he chose! I thought the MD did a brilliant job of restraining himself from stopping the shooter touching the target. I thought it worked out fine. Most people got a down 5 or down 10 and FTN on that target...he was lucky.

Cody

What rulebook are you guys using in Maryland? Because the IDPA rulebook doesn't have a section that would allow for that penalty to be assessed. What it does have is a section that addresses touching a target before it's been scored, which is pretty clearly not the case here.

Threatening shooters with penalties that aren't in the rulebook is one of the worst things that happens at IDPA matches.

cclaxton
05-05-2014, 12:00 PM
Caleb,
Perhaps I was not explaining properly. The situation occurred AS we were trying to determine the score. The shooter was there when I made the decision, but then he challenged it before anyone had pasted it or touched it. The MD showed up as we were discussing it. I am not sure it would be appropriate for the shooter to touch the target while the challenge was being discussed. And, it may not even be appropriate for the shooter to touch the target if he wanted to have us pull the target to challenge the decision.
Cody

JAD
05-05-2014, 12:00 PM
What did that front target with the hole cut out represent?

JeffJ
05-05-2014, 12:06 PM
"Benefit of the doubt" allows for discretion on the part of the SO. The guy that's always saying "that's a double" probably won't get it.

Seems... subjective

cclaxton
05-05-2014, 12:14 PM
What did that front target with the hole cut out represent?
It was a full-sized IDPA target and the hole represented the center-mass down 0 area. It represented a threat target...prison breakout. A small amount of down 1 area could be hit by shorter shooters.
Cody

jetfire
05-05-2014, 12:46 PM
Seems... subjective

It is.

cclaxton
05-05-2014, 12:58 PM
It is.
Just to be clear: Everyone works to be as objective and fair as possible. I have only ever met one SO that I thought was biased. Not going to say who it is, and I have shot dozens of sanctioned matches.
Cody

Wheeler
05-05-2014, 11:35 PM
I've discovered that quoting the "benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter" rule usually gets my doubles called as a miss on one. There are good SO's and there are folks that have an SO certification and an attitude... It's a good thing I don't care about being competitive anymore. ;)

Glenn E. Meyer
05-06-2014, 03:07 PM
I did that in an IDPA match on a close target. Bang, bang - and there was one hole! Darn - bang - still one hole. The SO is cracking up - he said : You've put two through the original. Now why didn't the SO see that last Saturday when on a very long distance target with two shots there was one perfect zero hole? Hmm?

Actually, on one target there were three touching. Don't ask about the other target - that guy went off to get a beer. :(

Don Gwinn
05-06-2014, 09:31 PM
Must be going around; I did it on the first ring of Dot Torture today from five yards. I can't prove it, and there's almost no ovoid shape to the hole, but I called that shot a good hit and I'd have had to miss the entire backer, because it was clean.

Reminds me of shooting bows with my cousin when I was a kid; we'd proudly tell people we split arrows from time to time. We felt it went without saying that we weren't aiming at the arrows, just shooting a lot of them into a fairly small target . . . so we didn't mention it. ;)