PDA

View Full Version : Poor situational awareness, 2 bad guys and "Where's my gun?"



Shellback
06-25-2011, 08:39 AM
A recent incident involving a male attacked by 2 bad guys at a gas station, video below. Poor situational awareness, he turns his back to BG 1 several times, and his weapon was in his vehicle at the time rather than on his body. In my opinion he was very lucky to come out of this incident unscathed.

He discusses the incident in this thread (http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53502), I have not read it. One suggestion I have for people involved in an "incident" is not to post their thoughts, feelings or anything else concerning the matter online unless you want it used against you in a court of law. I understand the need to vent, seek advice from like minded people and just blow off steam about the ordeal but do yourself a favor and STFU unless you like attorney's fees.

Video here:
http://www.whiotv.com/video/28315602/index.html

I think there are a few good lessons here and most will be obvious to the vast majority of members here, please discuss. I apologize for starting a thread and not being able to participate in it today but it's time for boating, beers & bikinis! I love summer time! :cool:

TCinVA
06-25-2011, 11:43 AM
The overwhelming majority of people carrying a gun for self defense would do well to sell one of their guns (because damn near everyone owns more than one) and use the money to buy tuition to a class containing SouthNarc's Managing Unknown Contacts presentation. He's even put it on a DVD you can buy from Shivworks' website.

Being able to shoot well is a part of self defense...not the whole. Learning how criminals operate, learning to spot the warning signs of an impending attack, and knowing how to avoid placing yourself in a vulnerable position in the first place should be the focus of a deliberate effort to build knowledge and skill for every individual, but especially those who have a firearm for the purpose of self defense. The fundamental truth about criminals is that the majority of them are ambush predators looking for easy prey. There are some very basic but very effective things you can do to A. avoid the ambush and B. communicate to the bad guy that he's trying to tangle with somebody who has big, sharp fangs. The combination of that has a tendency to make most bad guys decide that they'd probably be better off selecting another target.

Being the best shot in the world is great. Having a huge gun collection is great.

...but it's not much practical good if you don't know how to read the world around you to see a bad guy sizing you up for an attack. People often talk about SHTF on gun boards. I have news, folks: SHTF doesn't mean some sort of zombie apocalypse or total breakdown of social order. It means some hammerhead(s) out there smoking a rock and then deciding that he's going to come after you and your family to get what he wants. The skill to shoot that guy in the face is certainly a wonderful asset on it's own, but it will work best for you when paired with the situational awareness and street smarts necessary to spot an attack before it gets to the point where there's a guy punching your face in.

seabiscuit
06-25-2011, 12:18 PM
The overwhelming majority of people carrying a gun for self defense would do well to sell one of their guns (because damn near everyone owns more than one) and use the money to buy tuition to a class containing SouthNarc's Managing Unknown Contacts presentation. He's even put it on a DVD you can buy from Shivworks' website.

Found some of that presentation here (http://www.safeism.com/pdfs/SNContacts.pdf). SouthNarc, if this stuff is close-hold or copyrighted, I apologize. It was the first result in a Google search. Good stuff, though.

JFK
06-25-2011, 01:50 PM
The overwhelming majority of people carrying a gun for self defense would do well to sell one of their guns (because damn near everyone owns more than one) and use the money to buy tuition to a class containing SouthNarc's Managing Unknown Contacts presentation. He's even put it on a DVD you can buy from Shivworks' website.

Being able to shoot well is a part of self defense...not the whole. Learning how criminals operate, learning to spot the warning signs of an impending attack, and knowing how to avoid placing yourself in a vulnerable position in the first place should be the focus of a deliberate effort to build knowledge and skill for every individual, but especially those who have a firearm for the purpose of self defense. The fundamental truth about criminals is that the majority of them are ambush predators looking for easy prey. There are some very basic but very effective things you can do to A. avoid the ambush and B. communicate to the bad guy that he's trying to tangle with somebody who has big, sharp fangs. The combination of that has a tendency to make most bad guys decide that they'd probably be better off selecting another target.

Being the best shot in the world is great. Having a huge gun collection is great.

...but it's not much practical good if you don't know how to read the world around you to see a bad guy sizing you up for an attack. People often talk about SHTF on gun boards. I have news, folks: SHTF doesn't mean some sort of zombie apocalypse or total breakdown of social order. It means some hammerhead(s) out there smoking a rock and then deciding that he's going to come after you and your family to get what he wants. The skill to shoot that guy in the face is certainly a wonderful asset on it's own, but it will work best for you when paired with the situational awareness and street smarts necessary to spot an attack before it gets to the point where there's a guy punching your face in.

As usual eloquently said and spot on. The best classes I have taken related to self defense have been non firearms. The lessons I have learned have no doubt avoided potential situations.

SecondsCount
06-25-2011, 11:21 PM
Thanks for posting IRISH.

TCinVA has a valid point about attending other classes besides just firearm training. This last spring I took a two day class that was intended to be a "Defensive Knife Class" but turned out to be so much more. We didn't even touch knives on the first day but learned a ton of basic martial art skills as well as how to handle certain scenarios when things get really close. The second day was an eye opener on how things can go wrong quick and actions to defend or evade.

I know the term gets abused but there should be more than one tool in the toolbox for these situations.

johnvolk
06-26-2011, 12:37 AM
Interesting thread and foregoing links. Very good material for study and discussion.

The best violent confrontation that anyone will ever be in (off of a military battlefield) is the one that does not happen. It matters not, weather you are a LEO or a civilian. Deadly force incidents in current USA society tend to be a lot of trouble with the legal system, that most sane persons would prefer to avoid. I speak from experiences of myself and close associates over more than a 50 years time span.

The only thing that is more deficient than most persons' combat handgun use skills is the situation awareness of most civilians. The video of the you man at the Dayton, OH gas station is a good example, and not likely that unusual. Probably typical. He did just about every thing wrong, except shoot one of his assailants. Had he been alert and prepared, the shooting would likely not have been necessary.

I tell all of my students that I am paranoid. Paranoia has saved my "donkey" (and the "donkeys" of several close associates) on numerous occasions. I was a Boy Scout; and internalized their motto to: "Be Prepared". Somewhere, along the journey of life, I managed to become an aircraft pilot. I was trained and drilled to expect the unexpected. If you have the bad fortune to experience a total engine power failure, you are returning to the earth's surface. If you are proficient in judging glide distances and in making no power landings on unpaved surfaces; you have a lot better chance of walking away from a forced landing, unhurt.

I tell all of my students that distance (in a situation that has the potential to turn violent) is your friend; and that you should try to maintain a lot of it, even if doing so means running away, assuming that there is no one with you who can not flee with you. Standing and arguing with a potential attacker is not smart.

I tell my students that there are no rules that always apply to every violent (or potentially violent) situation other than "stay alert" and "do not hesitate when you need to strike". There is a lot more meaning to these two foregoing concepts than their total of ten words convey at face value.

I tell my students that almost all predators (beast and human) prefer unaware, weak looking, easy victims; because attacking alert, strong, victims is more difficult, and can be dangerous. Therefore, one is often wise to have a "street face" that communicates that "you do not want to even think about messing with me".

As to the specific gas station incident of this thread, I always remove my keys and usually lock my door when I get out to fuel. I am always armed with a concealed handgun. I am always looking around for potential threats. If approached, I am usually civil but not friendly; and always prepared to fight or flee. Fleeing safely is usually preferable to fighting.

Jay Cunningham
06-26-2011, 12:52 AM
ECQC was the most relevant training that I've ever participated in. The situation in the video was most certainly covered in the MUC block.

Ga Shooter
06-27-2011, 10:44 AM
The overwhelming majority of people carrying a gun for self defense would do well to sell one of their guns (because damn near everyone owns more than one) and use the money to buy tuition to a class containing SouthNarc's Managing Unknown Contacts presentation. He's even put it on a DVD you can buy from Shivworks' website.

I agree with everything you said in your post but I went to the Shivworks website and could not find that video. Is it still for sale? do you have a link to the page?

Thanks

gtmtnbiker98
06-27-2011, 11:40 AM
But the key point is, if you decide to carry a gun for self-defense, then carry the damn gun and don't stash it "unsecured" in a vehicle console. If anybody isn't familiar with Dayton and Montgomery county in general, then be warned, it's a dive.

LittleLebowski
06-27-2011, 12:00 PM
The Facebook thread where the perp that wasn't shot promised retribution was comical.........

Kyle Reese
06-27-2011, 12:02 PM
The Facebook thread where the perp that wasn't shot promised retribution was comical.........

Indeed. I had him figured as a Rhodes scholar, based on his superb grammar and colorful use of contemporary urban vernacular.

I'm sure the DA will get a kick out of reading it as well, if they opt to charge him.

Dropkick
06-27-2011, 12:03 PM
I agree with everything you said in your post but I went to the Shivworks website and could not find that video. Is it still for sale? do you have a link to the page?

Thanks

It's available here:
http://www.moaarmory.com/details.php?prodId=37

I highly recommend it, also.

LittleLebowski
06-27-2011, 12:04 PM
Indeed. I had him figured as a Rhodes scholar, based on his superb grammar and colorful use of contemporary urban vernacular.

Indeed.

http://www.anewdayanewdawn.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/rut-cartoon1.bmp

TCinVA
06-27-2011, 01:58 PM
I agree with everything you said in your post but I went to the Shivworks website and could not find that video. Is it still for sale? do you have a link to the page?

Thanks

I bought mine here:

http://www.moaarmory.com/details.php?prodId=37

Shellback
06-27-2011, 02:02 PM
I bought mine here:

http://www.moaarmory.com/details.php?prodId=37

$40 seems a little steep to me. What's your opinion on the bang for the buck factor? I'd much rather attend in person, I think everybody would, and hope to in the future but a little primer would be nice as well.

Dropkick
06-27-2011, 02:05 PM
I bought mine here:

http://www.moaarmory.com/details.php?prodId=37

TC, make sure to watch out for pre-assault cues like women wanting to groom your luscious hair.
;)

LittleLebowski
06-27-2011, 02:13 PM
Indeed. I had him figured as a Rhodes scholar, based on his superb grammar and colorful use of contemporary urban vernacular.

I'm sure the DA will get a kick out of reading it as well, if they opt to charge him.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x369/parbreaker82/Facebook2.png

Dropkick
06-27-2011, 02:13 PM
$40 seems a little steep to me. What's your opinion on the bang for the buck factor? I'd much rather attend in person, I think everybody would, and hope to in the future but a little primer would be nice as well.

The $40 DVD is a tenth of the $400 price of the ECQC class.
The DVD is about 1:30 hours
ECQC is 20 hours of instruction

I've watched the MUC DVD a few times now, and am still getting my money's worth.

Shellback
06-27-2011, 02:22 PM
The $40 DVD is a tenth of the $400 price of the ECQC class.
The DVD is about 1:30 hours
ECQC is 20 hours of instruction

I've watched the MUC DVD a few times now, and am still getting my money's worth.

Thanks for the recommendation.

irishshooter
06-27-2011, 04:27 PM
SNarcs Practical Unarmed Combat (PUC)is also excellent and applicable in this guys case for MUC. great buy IMO. agreed, us "gun people" tend to rely too heavily on having a gun and often overlook other aspects of personal defense. We often get into trouble because we dont follow our "gut instinct" or try and convince ourselves that "this cant be happening". the detective commenting on the video even states that the "victim", "was feeling real uncomforatble and sat in the car..." unfortunately he chose to get out therafter for whatever reason, not following his gut and is lucky it didnt turn out worse. the book, Gift of Fear, by Gavin DeBecker is an excellent read and another great resource regarding how doing something as simple as following how you are feeling about a situation may save your life. also check out the book, What Every Body is Saying by Joe Navarro(ex FBI and conisdered a pioneer in the art of reading body language). SNarc also touches upon body language in PUC video and it closely mimics the thoughts and observations in Navarros book. No situational awareness, ignoring body language and not going with gut feeling = recipe for disaster, gun or no gun ,IMHO.

TCinVA
06-27-2011, 06:26 PM
$40 seems a little steep to me. What's your opinion on the bang for the buck factor? I'd much rather attend in person, I think everybody would, and hope to in the future but a little primer would be nice as well.

I say this with absolute seriousness: It is the best $40.00 investment you can make if your goal is self defense.

The presentation is a clear, concise, and eminently useful in giving you the lowdown on how criminals work and how to avoid being their unwitting victim. I personally used the principles presented in MUC on a dude who attempted a strong arm robbery on me Christmas Eve of 2010. It. Works.

If you don't already have a plan (or if your plan hasn't been reality checked) on dealing with unknown contacts, it's a simple set of easily mastered techniques that can make the difference between diffusing an intended attack and having to fight your way out of one that's in progress.

If you're amenable, send me your address in a PM and I'll mail you my copy so you can watch before you buy.

I don't buy training DVD's...but I bought this one within half an hour of learning of its existence. There's a reason for that.

Shellback
06-27-2011, 06:36 PM
I say this with absolute seriousness: It is the best $40.00 investment you can make if your goal is self defense.

I couldn't think of a better recommendation than that! Thanks TC and PM sent.

Ga Shooter
06-28-2011, 03:04 PM
I say this with absolute seriousness: It is the best $40.00 investment you can make if your goal is self defense.

The presentation is a clear, concise, and eminently useful in giving you the lowdown on how criminals work and how to avoid being their unwitting victim. I personally used the principles presented in MUC on a dude who attempted a strong arm robbery on me Christmas Eve of 2010. It. Works.

If you don't already have a plan (or if your plan hasn't been reality checked) on dealing with unknown contacts, it's a simple set of easily mastered techniques that can make the difference between diffusing an intended attack and having to fight your way out of one that's in progress.

If you're amenable, send me your address in a PM and I'll mail you my copy so you can watch before you buy.

I don't buy training DVD's...but I bought this one within half an hour of learning of its existence. There's a reason for that.

That's good enought for me order placed! Thanks

ToddG
06-28-2011, 03:15 PM
I do not consider myself a shy wallflower, and I've heard awareness/avoidance lessons from well over a dozen genuinely qualified and intelligent instructors.

The two hours of MUC I got at last year's Rangemaster Tactical Conference were incredibly eye opening.

ranburr
06-29-2011, 03:30 AM
Videos are great. But, I find them to be better as a refresher after I have taken the actual course. SothNarc's ECQC is well wort the investment and it will add value to any video. I do a few things to try to make myself less of a victim when getting gas ( a time most are very vulnerable). I drive a crew cab diesel truck (think big), my vehicle choice limits someone from just walking right up on me without being seen. Also, since it is a diesel, I normally stay in my vehicle with the engine running while pumping the fuel automatically, (if need be, I can drive out of an attack). Finally, I usually try to take my dog with me when I can. I have discovered that people who have no fear of guns or knives are often terrified of large, intimidating dogs.

Ga Shooter
07-07-2011, 09:42 AM
Recieved my video on Saturday and have watched it. WOW!! that was the best video for self defense I have ever watched. In the last part he shows just a couple of moves that are better than the years of TAE KWON DO training that I have had. It was very well done. I think live training (as always) is better, but until you can make a class (this will be on my short list for the future) this thing is great. I have even gotten my wife to look at part of it (mainly because of Irish's videos from the other thread http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1241-The-Grooming-Cue) and has her thinking more defensively. Thanks for making me aware of such valuable information. I will look forward to having SouthNarc kick my butt in the future.

Al T.
07-11-2011, 08:17 PM
Ditto and thanks to the folks recommending the DVD. Got mine today, excellent shipping by the vendor. Also picked up the handgun 1 DVD.

Dropkick
07-11-2011, 08:34 PM
Ditto and thanks to the folks recommending the DVD. Got mine today, excellent shipping by the vendor. Also picked up the handgun 1 DVD.

Once you watch the Handgun I DVD, can you do a review?

Al T.
07-12-2011, 07:49 AM
Roger, wilco.

Shellback
07-12-2011, 11:54 AM
Ditto and thanks to the folks recommending the DVD. Got mine today, excellent shipping by the vendor. Also picked up the handgun 1 DVD.

I've watched the first 1/2 of the video so far and would recommend it as well. Some good info discussed.

part-time shooter
07-17-2011, 08:56 AM
I picked up the PUC and Handgun 1 when I found a few Shivworks videos posted on youtube from one of SN's posts. I learned quite a bit from the 2-4 minute "bites" in those videos so I figured the DVDs would be even better and I was correct. The DVDs are full of useful information, I'd recommend the PUC video over the handgun video as I think the informaiton is far more useful to the average person, who is probably completely unaware that this information exists. I learned more from that 90 minutes than I ever did from any other training resource on the use of a handgun, which never comes up in the PUC video, it's all unarmed. His handgun video is all about how to use the gun up close and personal, something you can't practice at an indoor range but after seeing how it needs to be done and why it's something that needs to be practiced. One of the biggest lessons you'll learn from the handgun video is that the gun you carry for protection may be your biggest liability in a real fight if you don't know how and when to use it.

The PUC DVD on how to handle unknown contacts, what to look for, how to read intentions (which you can't), how and where to move, and what to say and what not to say is far more useful information to have if you've never been exposed to it. I hadn't. He only demonstrates 4 techniques in the video towards the end on what to do when all of the previous fails and you get attacked and those 4 techniques displace all I ever learned studying seveal different martial arts. Those taught me how to spare, not fight, against trained and aware opponents, which is absolutely useless under these circumstances. He keeps it very simple and explains the why of everything.

Both DVDs are well worth the money. It's only ~$40 each and that barely covers a movie and dinner for two around here, the PUC DVD is also extremely valuable for your wife or daughter(s). SN is no big he-man warrior type, he's presenting to "everyone" not just an LEO or "gun person" audience. The DVDs are not million dollar productions but they are well done and his "back alley" backdrop keeps what he's presenting in context and his style of presentation only adds to his credibility.

Dagga Boy
08-27-2011, 05:12 PM
For what its worth.....Southnarcs stuff is outstanding. Luckily, I have had the chance to spend some time with Southnarc in the past. While we are "size opposite" and worked in totally different parts of the country, doing completely different details in L/E, we have both come up with the exact same teaching ideas based on dealing with real bad guys for a lot of years (and being honest enough to learn from ours/ and others mistakes). If you are serious about how to deal with bad guys, you will pay attention to the folks who put a ton of time in with dealing with real bad guys.

This brings up a training issue in general. You want to cut down your shot to shot times, clean up your draws, and improve your accuracy, you go to guys who spend a metric ton of time doing that with an established background (that tends to be obvious on the range if they know WTF they are talking about).

The problem in the world of "self defense" training is there are a ton of folks teaching it who have no clue about dealing with real predatory animals. For those of us who spend a lot of time in the "shooting based" martial arts, the best guys out there tend to have at least a decade or two (or three) devoted to dealing full time with human predatory animals (and not behind a desk), before they start sharing that information and start training based on their knowledge. It is why guys like Scott Reitz, Pat Rogers, Southnarc, Bill Murphy, Mark Fricke, Erick Gelhaus, Rob Haught, and others are excellent training resources. They know how to apply the use firearms with the realities of dealing with criminals based on doing it as a primary job their entire adult lives, before throwing out a training shingle (on the Mil side,Ken Hackathorn, Larry Vickers, Paul Howe, Pat MacNamarra, Jason Falla, Super Dave Harrington, Kyle Lamb, Jim Smith, Ken Good, Jeff Gonzales, and others are a good bet). The guys who have been failures, strap hangers, very part timers in micro agencies, etc. can often speak the lingo but really have no concept of what they are talking about. A good analogy for those of you with solid competition credentials would be the guys who have won the "Lower Westside Nowhereville IDPA championships" having the same clout as the guys who are winning multi discipline national matches year after year. Like the same folks in the gunfight training world, they might know something, but it is wholly based on theory and listening to others and not based on their own first hand experience.

The nice thing about Southnarc is that he is one of the elites of this business who has "done", can perform, and can teach. You can find plenty of folks with experience, skills, and an ability to teach....but very few with all three. Guys with two are a great resource, guys with all three are gold.