Hearing Protection, the MSA Sordins, and NRR Ratings

[TheTrevor]

When you bring up MSA Sordin Supreme ear-pro among folks who are serious about shooting sports, it’s pretty much guaranteed that you’ll hear spec-sheet-based performance objections from at least one person. After all, what self-respecting gear whore (myself included) doesn’t review the spec sheets when making a buying decision?

As it turns out, I actually researched this in detail before I plunked down the cash to buy my Sordins. I've retraced my steps, gone spelunking through various browser histories, and dug up new sources to look at why Sordins seem to perform way beyond a weaksauce 19 dB Noise Reduction Rating.

The results may surprise you... (http://trevoronthetrigger.wordpress.com/2014/05/01/msa-sordin-supreme-performance-the-misleading-nrr18db-rating/)

[orionz06]

Amaze!

http://i.imgur.com/C1v0C2I.gif

[JV_]

Regardless of what they're rated at, on my head, they're far less effective than other muffs I have which have a higher NRR rating. At indoor ranges, if I don't double plug, my ears will ring. That doesn't happen with other sets.

[JAD]

they're far less effective .

This. Fine for classes outdoors.

[TheTrevor]

Regardless of what they're rated at, on my head, they're far less effective than other muffs I have which have a higher NRR rating. At indoor ranges, if I don't double plug, my ears will ring. That doesn't happen with other sets.

Do you have a set of ear-pro which works well for you indoors without doubling up?

[JV_]

Pro-Ears Dimension 1 Plus

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/479708/pro-ears-promag-dimension-1-plus-electronic-earmuffs-nrr-33-db-black

[JSGlock34]

My problem with the higher DB rated ear pro is the corresponding increase in bulk. I find that in some shooting positions (not just tactical turtle!) I'll actually contact the ear pro with my shoulders. So I just double up and pair my MSA Sordins with a set of Surefire plugs.

[JV_]

Yes, my shoulders touched the bottom of the muffs but it wasn't problematic for me.

[TheTrevor]

Pro-Ears Dimension 1 Plus

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/479708/pro-ears-promag-dimension-1-plus-electronic-earmuffs-nrr-33-db-black

Thanks, JV. Looks like those have been replaced by the Pro Mag Gold:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1871278796/pro-ears-promag-gold-electronic-earmuffs-nrr-30-db

If those look to be about the same size as your Dimension 1+ units, how thick would you say the earmuff units are, from the seal to the outer surface? Looks like 3.5-4 inches, but I can't find measurements anywhere.

[JSGlock34]

Yes, my shoulders touched the bottom of the muffs but it wasn't problematic for me.

For me the contact was enough to sometimes break the seal. I also found the lo-pro muffs worked better for me when working with a long arm.

[JV_]

I can't measure it because I sold them. That's how/why I got the MSAs, but then regretted the switch. I was getting pissed that they didn't have an auto shutoff and the twist knob was getting bumped in my range bag, which left me with dead batteries. They took type N batteries, which weren't easy to find.

The down side of the high NRR muffs is the squeeze, you need comfortable ear pieces on your eye pro or it will push them in to your head.

[TheTrevor]

Seems like they responded to customer feedback on the trouble/expense of replacing 4 N-cells at a time. The most recent models they've introduced run on 123's instead of N-cells.

A rough estimate on size would be fine, exact measurement not needed. Just trying to get a sense of proportion for how big the large-internal-volume earcups are.

[JV_]

~3" deep

The problem with the Pro Ears that take 123s is the batteries come really close to your ear. If you eye pro pushes you ear out, even a little, it can get pushed in to the battery.

FWIW: I have the Pro Tac 300, they're rated at an NRR 26. They're still better than the MSAs.

[TheTrevor]

Thanks, very much appreciate the info. Super helpful.

[TumblinDown]

So... this all begs the simple question: are the $200-$300 electronic muffs *really* a lot better than the garden variety similarly-rated $75-$100 pair, or do they just last 3x longer? Right now I just have a good-sealing passive set, but I still double-plug, even outdoors.

[orionz06]

So... this all begs the simple question: are the $200-$300 electronic muffs *really* a lot better than the garden variety similarly-rated $75-$100 pair, or do they just last 3x longer? Right now I just have a good-sealing passive set, but I still double-plug, even outdoors.



A $300 set that fits and works is better than three pairs of $62 sets that work but don't fit. Comfort is king and the Sordins are the most comfortable I've tried.

[TheTrevor]

So... this all begs the simple question: are the $200-$300 electronic muffs *really* a lot better than the garden variety similarly-rated $75-$100 pair, or do they just last 3x longer? Right now I just have a good-sealing passive set, but I still double-plug, even outdoors.

What orion said, plus...

I left a few things out of my review so it wouldn't run too long, some of which I may revisit in a later head-to-head comparison review of Sordins/ProEars/HL/etc. One of the big ones is the type and sophistication of the sound-processing circuitry. I'm going to generalize heavily here, so note that there will almost certainly be exceptions to the rule:

Value-priced electronic ear pro generally uses a simple analog circuit which cuts off the amplified pass-through of outside sound if the mic input level rises above a certain point. If there is shooting going on while you're trying to listen to someone talk, you're going to have a hard time understanding because the audio will keep cutting out.

Moving up to mid-range electronic ear pro you'll find a compression circuit instead, limiting the volume of any outside sound to a reference level -- typically 85dB at the "normal" volume setting. However, what you give up with mid-range ear-pro is the speed with which such circuits act to compress loud sounds to acceptable volume at the ears. Depending on the noise being suppressed, this may result in very short (5-10ms) spikes of loud noise making it through before the protection circuit kicks in. These spikes may not be easy to perceive but they CAN be fatiguing over the course of a long day.

Higher-end ear-pro tends to combine the best passive suppression-per-cubic-inch with top-notch electronics. In the $250+ range you can reasonably expect high-quality audio combined with compression which activates in well under 5ms. Ear seals tend to be top-of-the-line as well, yielding all-day comfort with a variety of eye-pro. And yes, they tend to last longer, especially hard-use products like the Sordins or the Pro Tacs, though you should expect to replace seals and foam liners periodically to maintain performance.

Hope this helps.

[PPGMD]

So... this all begs the simple question: are the $200-$300 electronic muffs *really* a lot better than the garden variety similarly-rated $75-$100 pair, or do they just last 3x longer? Right now I just have a good-sealing passive set, but I still double-plug, even outdoors.

More comfortable fit with gel ear seals and after market headbands. Better electronics that allow you to hear things better while shooting. And more robust construction.

As an example my old Peltor Tac6s. First they aren't particularly comfortable. The electronics are prone to getting turned on in your bag draining the battery. Next listening to them on the range was like being on the other side of a fan, it just cuts the audio in and out, it doesn't attempt alter the audio so you can still hear while there is shooting going on. Finally they aren't waterproof, I managed to kill a pair from sweat alone while shooting through a single summer.

Compare that to my MSA Sordins that have served be faithfully since 2009, with only a single trip to SRS due to a battery box issue which was fixed under warranty. I've upgraded them with gel ear seals and the OC Tactical headband. I can quite literally wear them all day. Of course taking them off is almost orgasmic after 12 hours, but I haven't encountered anything latches onto you like earpro that doesn't result in that feeling.

[JV_]

the Sordins are the most comfortable I've tried.I agree, with the gel cups the comfort was hard to beat.

[TGS]

Regardless of what they're rated at, on my head, they're far less effective than other muffs I have which have a higher NRR rating. At indoor ranges, if I don't double plug, my ears will ring. That doesn't happen with other sets.

This. I'd say they have worse attenuation than similar NRR rated muffs, too, because Sordins were obviously not designed to fit around human ears. It's not like I have Obama ears, and I can barely get these things to seal....there's just no room in the cup for my ear. Even when I get it to seal, if I turn my head then it's lost anyway.

After having them for a while, I honestly like my Peltors better. I've found my Sordins to be ineffective even outdoors.


A $300 set that fits and works is better than three pairs of $62 sets that work but don't fit. Comfort is king and the Sordins are the most comfortable I've tried.


I agree, with the gel cups the comfort was hard to beat.

Have you guys tried gel cups on other brands?

[JV_]

I have not, are there gel cups available for ProEars?

[orionz06]

I have as well, when available. The HL's may have sealed properly with gel cups.

[BaiHu]

TGS is right about the gel cups with any ear pro, IMO. I have the Peltor 6s as well and they are awesome with the gel cups.

Here's my ear pro deal:
1. I have the ears of an iguana, so I fit in any pair, but HL, b/c they are not snug enough.
2. My eye pro causes me to never get a seal on any pair well enough without having gel cups.
3. I always have plugs in addition to 'muff' ear pro, b/c the electronics pick up commands and the plugs allow me to make minor adjustments during shooting w/o compromising my ears too much.
4. I use the Sordins primarily for outdoor ranges with plugs, but they are okay on indoor ranges only if I have plugs in too.

[HopetonBrown]

I had a pair of Peltor Tac 6s gifted to me by my neighbor who used to be in "the teams".

They really suck. They have a 18 or 19 NRR and they completely cut out all sound when there is a shot, then slowly fade back to normal.

The Pro Ears I have do not fade out or in at all. Here's a video that demonstrates:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbgtsbejhAA

This corny video shows how cheaper electric pro just cut off, whereas the more expensive ones don't. You can see how this would drive you nuts after awhile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDWvW6iGWWE

I got a pair of the high end Pro Ears (not the 300 series) for $177 delivered last year around Xmas time from Optics Planet.


So... this all begs the simple question: are the $200-$300 electronic muffs *really* a lot better than the garden variety similarly-rated $75-$100 pair, or do they just last 3x longer? Right now I just have a good-sealing passive set, but I still double-plug, even outdoors.

[TheTrevor]

Finishing up an article this morning which, coincidentally, covers many of the issues you folks are raising here. Hope to get your feedback when it's up in a few hours.

[bigslim]

This corny video shows how cheaper electric pro just cut off, whereas the more expensive ones don't. You can see how this would drive you nuts after awhile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDWvW6iGWWE

Thats a great vid demonstrating the differences. I have a pair of HL's and can't use then inside because there not big enough for me to double up and outside I get better protection from triple flange plugs. That being said if I'm in a small bay or the line with other shooters I would like a bit better protection.

Mike

[HopetonBrown]

Bigslim, how do the HL behave during gunshots?

[TGS]

I will say that the Sordins are built of much nicer feeling materials than my Peltor 6s and 7s muffs. Their audio sounds nicer, as described in the few posts above.

However, I really haven't had a problem with the Peltors, and with the gel cups they're just as comfortable (more, actually, being my ears fit in them). I find they do what I need, even if the audio isn't as good...but I certainly don't find it bad. I don't get a ton of white noise, and I don't find the amplification/attenuation characteristics to be bothersome. Even my Sordins have quirks...if the volume is on the high end and I twist my head, I get a squealing feedback noise. So, I don't think they're dramatically better for the price.

It's unfortunate that I find their cups to be too small. It's kind of a deal killer for me, since for all their good traits they fail to do the basic job of muffs.

[bigslim]

Bigslim, how do the HL behave during gunshots?

they turn into passive protection but like I said for me they still let in a fair amount of noise.

Mike

[TheTrevor]

My recent Gear Review of the MSA Sordin Supreme ear-pro barely touched upon the significant differences you’ll find across the price spectrum, and provoked a number of follow-up questions. The majority of those inquiries can be summarized into three questions:


What do you get when you spend more?
What are the trade-offs between large, mid, and slim ear cup sizes?
What features really matter when I’m shopping for active electronic ear-pro?



Let’s dive headfirst down the ear-pro rabbit hole and see what we find… (http://trevoronthetrigger.wordpress.com/2014/05/03/gun-science-active-electronic-ear-pro/)

[JV_]

TheTrevor - I changed the title of the first thread and merged them, we don't need parallel threads on this topic.

[TheTrevor]

Well, crap... that was supposed to be a new thread. Brainfart, maybe? {facepalm}

[JV_]

Well, crap... that was supposed to be a new thread. Brainfart, maybe? {facepalm}

Read the post above yours, #31.

[TheTrevor]

Read the post above yours, #31.

Fair enough. I thought I brainfarted. Just did it again, please nuke the other thread.

[TumblinDown]

My recent Gear Review of the MSA Sordin Supreme ear-pro barely touched upon the significant differences you’ll find across the price spectrum, and provoked a number of follow-up questions. The majority of those inquiries can be summarized into three questions:


What do you get when you spend more?
What are the trade-offs between large, mid, and slim ear cup sizes?
What features really matter when I’m shopping for active electronic ear-pro?



Let’s dive headfirst down the ear-pro rabbit hole and see what we find… (http://trevoronthetrigger.wordpress.com/2014/05/03/gun-science-active-electronic-ear-pro/)

Very nice write-up! BTW, "attack time" is a standard term used for audio compression (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression). If you ever happen to take a look at compressors for musical instruments, you'll generally find a dial for this (or in software). The "release time" is essentially the reverse. How natural the compression sounds depends on lots of factors.

The need for good ear-pro is obvious. To this point I've just used good passive ear-pro, but I can definitely see the benefit of good electronics in group settings or hunting.

Thanks again for the effort to write this up. Much appreciated!

[TheTrevor]

Very nice write-up! BTW, "attack time" is a standard term used for audio compression (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression). If you ever happen to take a look at compressors for musical instruments, you'll generally find a dial for this (or in software). The "release time" is essentially the reverse. How natural the compression sounds depends on lots of factors.

The need for good ear-pro is obvious. To this point I've just used good passive ear-pro, but I can definitely see the benefit of good electronics in group settings or hunting.

Thanks again for the effort to write this up. Much appreciated!

Glad you enjoyed it, and thanks for reading it.

Regarding attack time -- even in a deep-dive article I have to be careful not to over explain things. :)

[HopetonBrown]

What's the attack time for the Sordins? I could never find that info when I was researching higher end ear pro around 2008.

MSA Sordins rule the tactical world, Pro Ears rule the competitive world. I would imagine one of the major decisions for the tactical world is low profile, with ability to fit underneath helmets. Naturally that isn't a factor in competition and other shooting sports, which is why I imagine Pro Ears are thicker and thusly can have a higher NRR rating. It can be harder to get a cheek weld with some of the thicker Pro Ears when shooting long guns.

Pro Ears are available with either CR123 or N type batteries. The last pair I bought the CR123 types but as previously noted they protrude further out into the cup of the ear pro.

I too had a pair of the Dimension One Pro Ears, and 4 years and 11 months into ownership one cup died out, and Pro Ears replaced the electronics in both ears for free (though I had to produce a receipt showing they were less than 5 years old). The newer Pro Ears have an auto-off.

The only guy I know with MSA Sordins wears passive muffs indoors as the Sordins give him ringing after a couple hours on an indoor range.

[PPGMD]

If I had to do indoor matches more I would probably pick up a set of Pro Ears. But since I often have to get into unusual positions including prone, I tend to favor smaller ear pro as they get in the way less even when shooting pistols.