My (not especially) triumphant return to USPSA competition post-Rogers

[TheTrevor]

After being forced to skip the twice-monthly USPSA matches for about 6 weeks straight due to injury and schedule conflicts, I was excited to make it to today’s match. It was a typical sunny, cool Northern California spring day — 60F, a bit chilly any time the sun was blocked by passing clouds, beautiful the rest of the time… and, of course, quite windy at times. This was also my first match shooting from my concealment AIWB (appendix in-waistband) holster. I’ll just note that everyone at TASC-IPSC (which is really a USPSA club) was totally cool with me shooting from AIWB, and in fact a number of folks struck up conversations to learn more about my setup and how it worked for me.

Short version: I was very happy with my performance on stage 1 despite being the very first shooter of the day, only to find out that one of the poppers refused to fall despite being smacked dead-center with a 147gr 9mm bullet. Then, when the calibration gun+load just barely managed to knock it over (slooowly) I got mentally wrapped around the axle over the penalty when I should have let it go.

That, and I continue to have issues establishing the correct angle on my strong-hand grip on the P30, which causes all sorts of alignment and trigger-deflection issues.

Here's the link to the blog post with commentary and stage videos if anyone is interested in the full story...

http://trevoronthetrigger.wordpress.com/2014/04/26/my-not-especially-triumphant-return-to-uspsa/

[Jared]

I've got my own thread going about trying to let a bad stage (or match in my case) go, so I can feel your pain on that one.

BTW, like your blog so far.

[breakingtime91]

Trevor, good blog and a very realistic reflection on your match. I think you will only improve as long as your realistic with yourself. Another good article was the one on your problems with the P30, I feel your pain on questioning gun choice..

[Mr_White]

I notice a couple of things from reading your account of this match. This is really just regurgitation of advice from much more knowledgeable people in the competition world.

I know you didn't notice that the offending popper had not fallen until after your stage was over. If you had noticed it before that, you should probably shoot it until it falls. Asking for calibration is a real gamble and it may or may not go your way. The smallest loss is usually had by shooting it until it falls. It's a moot point though when you don't notice until the stage is over (that has happened to me too.)

It may be better to work toward learning to execute under the stress you do feel, rather than trying to not feel the stress. A stress reaction, however one feels it, is likely to manifest any time one cares much about the outcome. I've found that true for myself. Over time, I think I have gotten better at executing while in that state. That is something I got a whole lot of practice in at Rogers, and at every USPSA match I go to, and I think can bring a big benefit to shooting for both competition and self-defense.

[PPGMD]

I know you didn't notice that the offending popper had not fallen until after your stage was over. If you had noticed it before that, you should probably shoot it until it falls.

One caveat to this that you can't shoot a forward falling popper to the ground. OTOH I haven't seen too many forward falling poppers that need calibration.

[TheTrevor]

Regarding the popper: brain and vision were running in overdrive when I shot that thing, and I swear I saw it start to move. Really don't want to get in the habit of spending time rechecking slow-falling poppers but I probably should at least flick my eyes over there before moving on.

Good thoughts on stress management. I agree overall, but do think I need to get better at leaving the previous stage behind when I go to shoot the next stage. My thought was that I probably could have handled those initial misses better on stage 2 if I hadn't been aggravated about the popper on stage 1.

[TheTrevor]

One caveat to this that you can't shoot a forward falling popper to the ground. OTOH I haven't seen too many forward falling poppers that need calibration.

Pretty sure this one was cold and not especially well lubed. Once it had been shot a few times it was fine, but I watched carefully and it definitely fell very slowly for shooters 2/3/4. As OAK says, might as well put another shot on it. I had extra rounds to spare before the next reload point, so it's not like a follow-up would have put me off-plan.

[JHC]

It may be better to work toward learning to execute under the stress you do feel, rather than trying to not feel the stress.

Whoa! [face palm] Thanks! I've either not felt the stress or once it set in; it stuck. Good tip to ponder.

[Mr_White]

Regarding the popper: brain and vision were running in overdrive when I shot that thing, and I swear I saw it start to move. Really don't want to get in the habit of spending time rechecking slow-falling poppers but I probably should at least flick my eyes over there before moving on.

This is exactly how it has happened for me. I called (visually, while shooting) a good hit on the popper, then promptly ignored it because I knew I had already hit it well. Except it didn't fall and I never noticed. Checking an array of steel for uncooperative targets, after firing certain hits at them, is not the most efficient thing to do but I wonder if it is some kind of necessary evil given the way steel doesn't always work. I would rather do that than end up in the very uncertain-to-go-your-way calibration situation, and I think it is still better than firing extra shots whether the steel needs it or not.

[TheTrevor]

This is exactly how it has happened for me. I called (visually, while shooting) a good hit on the popper, then promptly ignored it because I knew I had already hit it well. Except it didn't fall and I never noticed. Checking an array of steel for uncooperative targets, after firing certain hits at them, is not the most efficient thing to do but I wonder if it is some kind of necessary evil given the way steel doesn't always work. I would rather do that than end up in the very uncertain-to-go-your-way calibration situation, and I think it is still better than firing extra shots whether the steel needs it or not.

The other thing I took away from this: if I do ask for calibration, don't let them do it against a target I've already shot once. Request that someone go out there, release the popper hold-back and properly reset it. The popper can and should remain standing, held up by hand during the reset.

I suspect that my problem popper fell over because the calibration shot was done against a target which had already been shot once.

[GJM]

I am enjoying this -- interesting combination of C class shooting skills combined with GM level blogging.

[TheTrevor]

I am enjoying this -- interesting combination of C class shooting skills combined with GM level blogging.

My ability to execute has not yet caught up with my ability to analyze and problem-solve. The goal is to converge the two at some point.

ETA: ...and hopefully provide some helpful insights along the growth curve to other folks also working their way up, if only by watching me screw up. :)

[Mr_White]

The other thing I took away from this: if I do ask for calibration, don't let them do it against a target I've already shot once. Request that someone go out there, release the popper hold-back and properly reset it. The popper can and should remain standing, held up by hand during the reset.

I suspect that my problem popper fell over because the calibration shot was done against a target which had already been shot once.

Actually, I don't think it is going to work that way.

You may be totally correct with your factual assessment of the situation with your popper. But I believe that in the calibration procedure, the potentially-offending popper cannot be touched or reset or interfered with in any way. That's the one they are going to shoot for calibration, not a different one, even if they should theoretically be identical.

I say that because I have seen the situation come up twice now, where a shooter shot a popper, popper didn't fall, shooter asked for calibration, the calibration shot went a little high to the top of the round hit zone on the popper and knocked it down, shooter protests the sorta high shot, but there was no allowance to repeat calibration because the popper had by that point been interfered with since the competitor's failed shot on it (yes, interfered with by the calibration process.)

Calibration is iffy and is not a good situation to be in - best case is reshoot, worst case is you get stuck with a miss. This whole mess is why the advice I have received is to shoot it until it falls. Not ideal, but the least bad outcome short of it falling when shot the first time.

[TheTrevor]

Good to know. Definitely better to put a second round on that kitten in the first place. :)

[BN]

Good thoughts on stress management. I agree overall, but do think I need to get better at leaving the previous stage behind when I go to shoot the next stage.

I have shot what I thought were really crappy scores and ended up winning the match. ;) Everybody else shot even crappier. :) I try not to get too excited about my performance until after the match is over. I actually don't want to compare my scores to anybody else until the results are out.

PS. I hate Poppers that don't fall and need to be calibrated. I think they should be reset before checking but that isn't what the rules say. :(

[TheTrevor]

Here's the real irony: at this point, I'm not even seriously shooting for score or expecting to win anything. I'm running a nearly stock P30 in L10.

There's no good reason I should care, but I can't NOT care because I'm wired to be ultra competitive. Need to find my samurai zen and throw myself into battle without so much attachment to the outcome.

[Slavex]

In IPSC if the calibration shot is outside of the calibration zone the shooter gets the reshoot, as well, the popper cannot be touched until the calibration shot is performed. I'd say I'm 50/50 on calibration requests. I don't think I've ever asked for a forward falling popper to be calibrated, but I know I've had to re-engage a few over the years. Any popper can fail if it's not set properly. A good MD/RM will ensure that on stages with poppers that the crew understands how to set them and maintain them.

[Lomshek]

Here's the real irony: at this point, I'm not even seriously shooting for score or expecting to win anything. I'm running a nearly stock P30 in L10.


Why not just do Limited and run the mags at full cap to avoid the scar of initiating a reload with 5 rounds in the mag (if you're shooting 9mm)?

I went through this myself with my M&P and just decided to do LTD and accept that I don't havea bunch of 22 round mags. If I was just worried about competing I would shoot major anyway so if I'm going to use my social gun I might as well run at full cap.

[TheTrevor]

Why not just do Limited and run the mags at full cap to avoid the scar of initiating a reload with 5 rounds in the mag (if you're shooting 9mm)?

I went through this myself with my M&P and just decided to do LTD and accept that I don't havea bunch of 22 round mags. If I was just worried about competing I would shoot major anyway so if I'm going to use my social gun I might as well run at full cap.

Because California. I have no legally plausible explanation for standard-capacity magazines which only became available in 2006, when I would have had to own them as of 1 Jan 2000 for them to be grandfathered in.

Otherwise, I'd be running 20-rounders built with Taylor Freelance +5 base plates in Limited and reloading once per stage...

ETA: Same problem with the M&P (introduced 2005, new magazine design). Anyone who moved to CA after 1 Jan 2000 is similarly hosed, as they could not have legally possessed standard-cap mags in CA before the cutoff.

Fortunately, this does not apply to most Glocks, SIGs, CZ75's or HK USP-family guns because standard-cap magazines for those were all available pre-2000.

[HopetonBrown]

Do you need a legally plausible explanation when possession of "high capacity" magazines is not illegal?

[TheTrevor]

Do you need a legally plausible explanation when possession of "high capacity" magazines is not illegal?

Everyone has their own comfort zone. Mine extends to only having standard-capacity magazines which were available pre-2000. I don't judge anyone for interpreting the law in a more permissive fashion.

I will say that I don't believe rivets and/or epoxy are required to legally limit a standard-cap mag to 10 rounds, as long as the capacity limiter will not fall out unless manually removed.

On an entirely unrelated note, I'm a huge fan of Vibra-Tite for ensuring that friction-fit parts don't separate unless you want them to.

[Lomshek]

Because California. I have no legally plausible explanation for standard-capacity magazines which only became available in 2006, when I would have had to own them as of 1 Jan 2000 for them to be grandfathered in.


Totally makes sense. I didn't even look at your location. I agree with being cautious. I seem to recall some story of a firearms trainer getting busted while traveling in CA and can understand not wanting to be a felon.

[Savage Hands]

Do you need a legally plausible explanation when possession of "high capacity" magazines is not illegal?


Possibly, what would you tell a cop if they asked why you had them and/or said they were illegal even to possess?
You could say nothing and ask for your lawyer but that's a hassle if it can be explained on the spot and hopefully verified by a supervisor.

By the way, you're in SF. Did you rid yourself of both standard mags and hollow point bullets?

[Savage Hands]

Everyone has their own comfort zone. Mine extends to only having standard-capacity magazines which were available pre-2000. I don't judge anyone for interpreting the law in a more permissive fashion.

I will say that I don't believe rivets and/or epoxy are required to legally limit a standard-cap mag to 10 rounds, as long as the capacity limiter will not fall out unless manually removed.

On an entirely unrelated note, I'm a huge fan of Vibra-Tite for ensuring that friction-fit parts don't separate unless you want them to.


Eh, the modified to 10 round magazines are supposed to be permanently fixed that way.

[Suvorov]

Eh, the modified to 10 round magazines are supposed to be permanently fixed that way.

Yep. But the definition of permanent is the catch. During the "Nam", industrious GIs who counted 10 less pointy things in their M14 and M16 mags than Charley had in their mags, were known to weld their mags together. So, is a factory 10 round magazine really more permanent than a MagPul 20 with 10 round base epoxied closed? I'm not brave enough to claim that the 10 round base plate is a permanent fix.

[TheTrevor]

Why do these discussions always cause me to regret sharing how I handle legal compliance in CA?

Folks, don't take this the wrong way, but unless you're a district attorney considering whether to charge me with a magazine-related violation, I do not care what your opinion is. You all do whatever makes you comfortable with the law, and I'll continue to do what I think will keep me out of trouble.

If I ever desire opinions on what constitutes a good means of legal compliance for a specific application, e.g. HK pistol magazines, I will make an explicit request for same.

Thank you.

[Savage Hands]

Why do these discussions always cause me to regret sharing how I handle legal compliance in CA?

Folks, don't take this the wrong way, but unless you're a district attorney considering whether to charge me with a magazine-related violation, I do not care what your opinion is. You all do whatever makes you comfortable with the law, and I'll continue to do what I think will keep me out of trouble.

If I ever desire opinions on what constitutes a good means of legal compliance for a specific application, e.g. HK pistol magazines, I will make an explicit request for same.

Thank you.

If you don't want something discussed here than don't post about it or harden the fudge up. I've been on this forum for awhile and have met Todd and many members, afaik discussing illegal activities knowingly or unknowingly is rather frowned upon.


If my words hurt you then use the ignore list.

[TheTrevor]

If you don't want something discussed here than don't post about it or harden the fudge up. I've been on this forum for awhile and have met Todd and many members, afaik discussing illegal activities knowingly or unknowingly is rather frowned upon.


If my words hurt you then use the ignore list.

Sorry if it seemed like I was stepping on your toes. No offense was intended to anyone, simply expressing my position regarding CA compliance.

Regarding your very first point: I think it's possible for someone to share how they handle a particular situation, e.g. legal compliance for magazine capacity limits, without that being an implicit invitation to criticize or second-guess that person's approach.

I would appreciate it if you could refrain from implying that I'm doing anything illegal or out-of-compliance. That was both untrue and uncalled-for.

[Savage Hands]

Sorry if it seemed like I was stepping on your toes. No offense was intended to anyone, simply expressing my position regarding CA compliance.

Regarding your very first point: I think it's possible for someone to share how they handle a particular situation, e.g. legal compliance for magazine capacity limits, without that being an implicit invitation to criticize or second-guess that person's approach.

I would appreciate it if you could refrain from implying that I'm doing anything illegal or out-of-compliance. That was both untrue and uncalled-for.

You opened up yourself to criticism when you said this:





I will say that I don't believe rivets and/or epoxy are required to legally limit a standard-cap mag to 10 rounds, as long as the capacity limiter will not fall out unless manually removed.

On an entirely unrelated note, I'm a huge fan of Vibra-Tite for ensuring that friction-fit parts don't separate unless you want them to.

Since you mention "manually removing" and "not moving until you want to" than it seems to violate the law requiring that they are "permanently altered so that the magazine cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds." I'm not going to turn you in or snitch on you, I'm just pointing out that there's a possible flaw in your post.

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201320140AB48

[TheTrevor]

Since you mention "manually removing" and "not moving until you want to" than it seems to violate the law requiring that they are "permanently altered so that the magazine cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds." I'm not going to turn you in or snitch on you, I'm just pointing out that there's a possible flaw in your post.

The definition of "permanent" is not at all clear in the codes, nor has it been clarified through case law, as I'm sure you know. Reasonable people have staked out positions along the spectrum of options regarding magazines, from "possession is not illegal" to rivet-and-epoxy, and everything in between.

I'm comfortable that I am legally compliant with CA magazine capacity limitations, having installed properly retained internal limiters in all of my post-2000 magazines.

Since I'm using limiters which insert into the follower, it seems like by the standard you're applying that there is no way for me to ever be legally compliant since I could simply swap in one of my spare (non-limited) followers, even if I epoxied the limiters in place.

[HopetonBrown]

Possibly, what would you tell a cop if they asked why you had them and/or said they were illegal even to possess?
You could say nothing and ask for your lawyer but that's a hassle if it can be explained on the spot and hopefully verified by a supervisor.

By the way, you're in SF. Did you rid yourself of both standard mags and hollow point bullets?

I shoot 1911s so it's already been a life of 8 round magazines of ball for me.

[Savage Hands]

I shoot 1911s so it's already been a life of 8 round magazines of ball for me.

Damn, well good luck!