Anyone else find it strange that most British and SKorean Police DON'T carry pistols?

[johnnyyukon]

Because I sure do.

[Drang]

Most South Korean cops are conscripts, rarely if ever armed. They qualify, just rarely carry. Frankly, they don't need to be armed for most of their duties. Not uncommon to see them walking around with empty holsters. The ones with guns have stayed with the job after the 2.5 years are up.

They also conscript big, burly farm boys for the security, AKA combat police, AKA the riot squad. Used to see them standing around outside Yongsan Garrison (then 8th Army HQ) waiting for some college boys to get froggy so they could bust some skulls.

[GardoneVT]

Because I sure do.

Different cultures, different customs. The Brits likely find our custom of armed patrol cops to be just as strange.

[Wheeler]

Different cultures, different customs. The Brits likely find our custom of armed patrol cops to be just as strange.

I see that as the difference between cultures that have a multi-mellenia history of being subjects vs a relatively new culture that prides itself on being free.

[HopetonBrown]

My English friend and his wife were visiting and she told me she thought it was scary that our police carried guns. I told her I thought it was scary that hers didn't.

[ford.304]

I think the average cop needs his gun barely more than the average citizen. Which is to say, they should have them, but if the don't the large majority of them will get by. The vast, vast majority of cops barely qualify with it and never discharge it.

There are definitely areas and squads where this "average" in *no way* applies.

I do think it's a somewhat laudable level of philosophical consistency in a country that bans guns, though. Cops and citizens should be equally armed.

[GardoneVT]

I do think it's a somewhat laudable level of philosophical consistency in a country that bans guns, though. Cops and citizens should be equally armed.

If Schumer ,Hillary , and Co. had their way, citizens would be banned from owning and carrying guns and so would the patrol officers. Got a violent suspect with a gun? Phone HQ for armed backup and hide.

[Josh Runkle]

If Schumer ,Hillary , and Co. had their way, citizens would be banned from owning and carrying guns and so would the patrol officers. Got a violent suspect with a gun? Phone HQ for armed backup and hide.

She's a front-runner for the 2016 elections. We may soon be able to test this theory.

[LSP972]

Different cultures, different customs. The Brits likely find our custom of armed patrol cops to be just as strange.

They do… although, the line is getting blurry over there as they face ever-increasing violence… the nanny state is finally coming home to roost. Just like, come to think of it, it is here as well...

My brother-in-law's brother-in-law (don't want to guess what THAT would be called) is a cop in Glasgow; dunno, he may be retired by now. When he and I first met, it was apparent he didn't think much of American cops; in fact, he made several references to "yank cowboys" in our conversations regarding police work. Since I was in his country, on his turf, I refrained from telling him to go kitten himself.

The few UK cops I had to work with, who were here via U.S. DOS, had basically the same attitude. We were barely civil with each other.

OTOH, I have met several UK cops over here, while working uniform details at Mardi Gras and other such tourist magnets. They had a much different take on it, although I'm not sure if it was their true feeling or more of a "stranger in a strange land" facade.

As for The Land of the Morning Calm… I was there in '76-'77, and one learned very quickly that one did NOT trifle with the KNPs- who, BTW, were mostly armed that I saw… with revolvers, no less.

I guess their philosophy has changed?

.

[David Armstrong]

Because I sure do.
Nope, not at all. Heck, you might be surprised at the number of U.S. officers that don't carry regularly. For the first half-century of U.S. law enforcement few municipal officers carried firearms, and up through the 1950's and 60s lots of small town and rural officers did not carry handguns on a regular basis. And truth be told even today most officers can and will go through their entire career and never need to carry a pistol. Of course, the problem with that is that today at any given time any officer might need his firearm and need it big time. FWIW according to one of my friends in Brit LE a number of officers that can carry choose not to do so.

[TheTrevor]

I've been to the UK a number of times in recent years. The idea that UK cops, and particularly London cops, go unarmed is unalloyed bullkitten. The difference is that they jump directly from baton-and-spray to MP5-class sub guns with 3 spare mags. While I grant that my last trip over there was immediately before the start of the Summer Olympics, so security posture was a bit stepped up from usual, I didn't go a single day without seeing London cops on foot patrol with MP5s. This was consistent with my previous visits, FWIW, especially around transit stations such as train terminals and airports.

Get out of the major cities, though, and the polarity flips back to the stereotype of "unarmed constables except in dire emergency".

[johnnyyukon]

I think the average cop needs his gun barely more than the average citizen. Which is to say, they should have them, but if the don't the large majority of them will get by. The vast, vast majority of cops barely qualify with it and never discharge it.

There are definitely areas and squads where this "average" in *no way* applies.

I do think it's a somewhat laudable level of philosophical consistency in a country that bans guns, though. Cops and citizens should be equally armed.

Some of my friends with CHL licenses carry their guns EVERYWHERE, church, restaurants, grocery stores; this isn't even a high crime rate town. I have my license on the way, and not sure I would have my IWB holster next to my car keys and wallet. I've personally NEVER encountered a situation in my entire life where I said to myself "my god, I wish I had a gun right now." But I don't know, I guess that's just my experience.

Not to say that couldn't happen. Just doesn't feel like the Wild West out there to me.

I've had two friends burglarized (so this isn't even carry conceal situation) one with a pregnant wife asleep (buddy held his pistol to the guy's face until the cops arrived), and another elementary school friend that was tied up by meth heads that were arguing whether or not to kill him (they didn't).

And no, I don't live in the ghetto, this is generally a very peaceful University town.

[Trooper224]

"I've personally NEVER encountered a situation in my entire life where I said to myself "my god, I wish I had a gun right now."

No one does, until they do.

[Tamara]

Some of my friends with CHL licenses carry their guns EVERYWHERE, church, restaurants, grocery stores; this isn't even a high crime rate town.

To paraphrase Kathy Jackson, I don't carry a gun to anyplace; I just carry a gun. I don't play actuarial bingo with the whole "Should I take a gun here? How about there?" I mean, if I think I'll need a gun to go someplace, I don't go there.

[johnnyyukon]

To paraphrase Kathy Jackson, I don't carry a gun to anyplace; I just carry a gun. I don't play actuarial bingo with the whole "Should I take a gun here? How about there?" I mean, if I think I'll need a gun to go someplace, I don't go there.

Yeah, and I don't judge anyone for it. Hell, maybe when I get my license, I will too. Just in my experience, haven't felt the need.

[Tamara]

Just in my experience, haven't felt the need.

FWIW, I never have either. I avoid being around the dope, get home at a decent hour, and don't go stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things, so I'll probably never need a gun.

(But it turns out I've been wrong about that a couple times. :o )

Still, even if a gypsy fortune teller told me I'd never ever need one again, I'd carry one anyway, just because. I think it's as much a philosophical statement with me as it is is anything else; as a history buff, it's struck me as a pretty consistent way to tell the serf from the sovereign.

[Fiddler1537]

I wear my seat belt every time I drive. In the past 45 yrs of driving I have never needed it. In the same period I wish I was armed twice. Once that resulted in a 3 day hospital stay.

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[johnnyyukon]

I wear my seat belt every time I drive. In the past 45 yrs of driving I have never needed it. In the same period I wish I was armed twice. Once that resulted in a 3 day hospital stay.

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Care to share the story?

I think part of it is, for me, that I'm just not used to carrying a weapon. I wasn't used to owning my first firearm, but that changed pretty quick.

[JDM]

I've pointed my gun at a few people. The last time I pointed my gun at someone I was watering my front lawn at nearly midnight (because it was absolutely beautiful out and I wasn't sleepy), on an otherwise unremarkable evening. I live in a "nice" neighborhood and do not behave in a fashion that would otherwise predicate criminal activity.

Sometimes you do everything right and still need a gun.

[Suvorov]

It is funny to me how many folks who are otherwise not superstitious, see the gun as some sort of talisman. Either its mere presence will be a ward against evil (and thus there is no need to train with it or even wear it) or like Luke in the Cave - it will attract evil and thus it should be avoided at all costs.

Then again, some folks are just lazy and don't think it will ever happen on their watch.

I worked the other day with a guy to explained to me that although he was one of our "officers" trained and authorized to carry a gun, he left it at home. I asked him what good it would do us locked up at home to which he replied that he just didn't feel like bringing it with him that week. I told him if he had a link or address to the website that the bad guys run that shows all their schedules and who and what they are going to attack that week. He just stared blankly at me.

Every day, some dood or doodette goes out there not thinking they will need a gun and by the end of the day they end up wishing to God (and all that other "superstitious nonsense") that they had it. It's like a bizarro world lottery only they buy there ticket by simply waking up. Every day somebody wins.

There are places I don't go armed and it bothers me, because IF I can have a gun with me - then I damn sure will. This isn't Degobah.

[johnnyyukon]

Maybe I should start a new thread, since I've derailed this one, but I'll say that it all boils down to experience. I've heard people say they "needed" their gun, but no specifics.

I carry jumper cables, a tow rope, and ratchet straps in my car because I've been in situations that have required them. I may never use them again, but am glad I have them.

I keep my firearm close to my bed because of multiple stories from close friends of burglaries. No one has ever told me a story about how having a concealed weapon on them saved their life. I'm not saying they don't exist by the truckload, but it just hasn't happened to me or people close to me. That's why I don't feel that strongly about it. Not really trying to argue, just giving MY perspective.

[Fiddler1537]

Care to share the story?

I think part of it is, for me, that I'm just not used to carrying a weapon. I wasn't used to owning my first firearm, but that changed pretty quick.

I was walking in downtown Colorado Springs a few decades ago and came across a group of 10 or 15 people beating up on 1 person. One of them had a knife out. I yelled for someone to call the police and, STUPIDLY , took off my belt (big buckle making it a somewhat formidable weapon) and went running at the crowd. I woke up a day or two later. I was told the other guy didn't get stabbed anymore and fortunately they didn't stab me. I could have used a gun that day.

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[NickA]

Every day, some dood or doodette goes out there not thinking they will need a gun and by the end of the day they end up wishing to God (and all that other "superstitious nonsense") that they had it. It's like a bizarro world lottery only they buy there ticket by simply waking up. Every day somebody wins.


I use this a lot with people who don't "get" the whole concealed carry thing. It usually goes:
"Why do you carry a gun? Do you think someone is going to try to kill you or something? "
"No I don't, but I bet most of the people who were murdered today didn't wake up thinking it was going to happen either."

[Trooper224]

Maybe I should start a new thread, since I've derailed this one, but I'll say that it all boils down to experience. I've heard people say they "needed" their gun, but no specifics.

I carry jumper cables, a tow rope, and ratchet straps in my car because I've been in situations that have required them. I may never use them again, but am glad I have them.

I keep my firearm close to my bed because of multiple stories from close friends of burglaries. No one has ever told me a story about how having a concealed weapon on them saved their life. I'm not saying they don't exist by the truckload, but it just hasn't happened to me or people close to me. That's why I don't feel that strongly about it. Not really trying to argue, just giving MY perspective.

When you get behind the wheel of your car do you put your seatbelt on because you know you're going to get into a crash, or do you leave it off because you know you won't? Hopefully you put it on because you're smart enough to prepare for the worst possible outcome in that particular activity. Wearing a seatbelt is preventative maintenance, so is carrying a gun.

[Suvorov]

What are the "statistics" dealing with the likelihood of someone being violently assaulted:
a) In their place of residence?
b) Outside their place of residence?

[GardoneVT]

Maybe I should start a new thread, since I've derailed this one, but I'll say that it all boils down to experience. I've heard people say they "needed" their gun, but no specifics.

I carry jumper cables, a tow rope, and ratchet straps in my car because I've been in situations that have required them. I may never use them again, but am glad I have them.

I keep my firearm close to my bed because of multiple stories from close friends of burglaries. No one has ever told me a story about how having a concealed weapon on them saved their life. I'm not saying they don't exist by the truckload, but it just hasn't happened to me or people close to me. That's why I don't feel that strongly about it. Not really trying to argue, just giving MY perspective.

I wanted to post this yesterday, but I felt in my better judgement there was no point. Your mind is made up, and that's your right. The reason I'm doing this anyway is because the day "The Gravest Extreme" happens to you , you might not survive to learn from it.

I used to think as you do. Until one night years ago, I was holding a very scared female Airman in my arms, in a lonely part of South Dakota at 0400 ,wondering what my unarmed self was gonna do if the guy who crashed the party with a .38 revolver came around that corner we hid behind.

Some of the guys and gals on this forum are in law enforcement, and see every day what happens to people "who never thought strongly about it." I don't carry a gun daily because of my own hide, incidentally. I do it for my mom, who will NOT be getting a visit at 3AM for a Death Notification for Next of Kin, not if I can help it.

[johnnyyukon]

When you get behind the wheel of your car do you put your seatbelt on because you know you're going to get into a crash, or do you leave it off because you know you won't? Hopefully you put it on because you're smart enough to prepare for the worst possible outcome in that particular activity. Wearing a seatbelt is preventative maintenance, so is carrying a gun.

I could say the same thing about carrying a gas mask just in case of some biological attack (and I'm sure people keep these in their car).

I may never use the gas mask, but it's preventative, and ya never know.

[johnnyyukon]

I wanted to post this yesterday, but I felt in my better judgement there was no point. Your mind is made up, and that's your right. The reason I'm doing this anyway is because the day "The Gravest Extreme" happens to you , you might not survive to learn from it.

I used to think as you do. Until one night years ago, I was holding a very scared female Airman in my arms, in a lonely part of South Dakota at 0400 ,wondering what my unarmed self was gonna do if the guy who crashed the party with a .38 revolver came around that corner we hid behind.

Some of the guys and gals on this forum are in law enforcement, and see every day what happens to people "who never thought strongly about it." I don't carry a gun daily because of my own hide, incidentally. I do it for my mom, who will NOT be getting a visit at 3AM for a Death Notification for Next of Kin, not if I can help it.

The truth is, I haven't quite made up my mind. I don't even have my CHL license yet, I just got my fingerprints to the state capital 3 weeks ago. I have a carry conceal holster, I've practiced drawing my gun from it. I've probably spent 10 hours researching comfortable ones, adjusting this one (dang, it had like 20 mods, tiny screws, gaskets, had to poke the leather holes). But without the actual license, I haven't had a chance to take the gun out of my home on my person.

And the Law Enforcement folks on here have seen a LOT more than I have and is probably why they may think I'm silly for even questioning it. But thanks for sharing your story. I've heard similar ones here, and from close friends.

[johnnyyukon]

I was walking in downtown Colorado Springs a few decades ago and came across a group of 10 or 15 people beating up on 1 person. One of them had a knife out. I yelled for someone to call the police and, STUPIDLY , took off my belt (big buckle making it a somewhat formidable weapon) and went running at the crowd. I woke up a day or two later. I was told the other guy didn't get stabbed anymore and fortunately they didn't stab me. I could have used a gun that day.

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That's nuts!

[Wheeler]

I could say the same thing about carrying a gas mask just in case of some biological attack (and I'm sure people keep these in their car).

I may never use the gas mask, but it's preventative, and ya never know.

That's a straw argument. No one can prepare for every possible eventuality. The statistical chances of needing a gun vs needing a protective mask are so far apart as to make that particular statement ludicrous.
If you don't want to carry a gun for self defense that's your choice. It's a big responsibility that many people just aren't mentally prepared to take on.
I'm willing to bet that when you needed jumper cables, a tow rope, etc you wished you had of had them before you discovered that you needed them.
As Super Dave Harrington is fond of saying in his classes, "You'll have the rest of your life to regret your mistakes."

[Suvorov]

I could say the same thing about carrying a gas mask just in case of some biological attack (and I'm sure people keep these in their car).

I may never use the gas mask, but it's preventative, and ya never know.

Ok. Other than your comment being a little snarky you make a point. That said, when was the last time you read about someone in the US going off to work/play/shop/school and getting gasses? Now when was the last time you heard about someone doing the same and getting shot/stabbed/pulped?

This is a big boy forum. You are your own G2/S2 - you make your own threat assessment. If you think your chances of getting gasses while out for pizza is the same as some goblin trying to jack you on the way home, then drive on! We all have to make threat assessments and decide for ourselves what is prudent and what is paranoid. I think most here have made pretty strong arguments that going out armed during your day to day mundane activities is more on the prudent side than the paranoid side.

[johnnyyukon]

Ok. Other than your comment being a little snarky you make a point. That said, when was the last time you read about someone in the US going off to work/play/shop/school and getting gasses? Now when was the last time you heard about someone doing the same and getting shot/stabbed/pulped?

It was a tad snarky( but at least I didn't say SMAW Thermobaric missile, just in case) I've been hearing, be prepared for anything and there's been stories of guys that wished they'd had guns but still survived. Most people, like me with the tow rope learn the hard way. A smart man learns from his mistakes a wise man learns from other people's mistakes. Im trying to be a wise man ( and not just wise ass).

I'm athletic but have no tactical training. I'm totally comfortable with my pistol, 99% sure I'd be comfortable with it on me. Pretty good shot. Handle well under high pressure situations. So I guess it's just a matter of carrying it around when I get the license, see how I feel.

Seems like it would be cool if there was some tactical training for civilians. I'm guessing there is, but maybe super expensive.





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[Wheeler]

It was a tad snarky( but at least I didn't say SMAW Thermobaric missile, just in case) I've been hearing, be prepared for anything and there's been stories of guys that wished they'd had guns but still survived. Most people, like me with the tow rope learn the hard way. A smart man learns from his mistakes a wise man learns from other people's mistakes. Im trying to be a wise man ( and not just wise ass).

I'm athletic but have no tactical training. I'm totally comfortable with my pistol, 99% sure I'd be comfortable with it on me. Pretty good shot. Handle well under high pressure situations. So I guess it's just a matter of carrying it around when I get the license, see how I feel.

Seems like it would be cool if there was some tactical training for civilians. I'm guessing there is, but maybe super expensive.





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There are all sorts of classes available for private citizens. My suggestion would be to take the NRA basic, advanced and home defense classes and then move up to something like what Tom Givens teaches. There are several threads about various classes and instructors by forum members that have actually taken the classes

[Trooper224]

I could say the same thing about carrying a gas mask just in case of some biological attack (and I'm sure people keep these in their car).

I may never use the gas mask, but it's preventative, and ya never know.

With that bit of specious circular logic the discussion has jumped the shark, so I'm out. Good luck with your myopic mindset.

[PPGMD]

I've been to the UK a number of times in recent years. The idea that UK cops, and particularly London cops, go unarmed is unalloyed bullkitten. The difference is that they jump directly from baton-and-spray to MP5-class sub guns with 3 spare mags. While I grant that my last trip over there was immediately before the start of the Summer Olympics, so security posture was a bit stepped up from usual, I didn't go a single day without seeing London cops on foot patrol with MP5s. This was consistent with my previous visits, FWIW, especially around transit stations such as train terminals and airports.

I was last in London in 2004, they were carrying subguns then too. And between then and your pre-Olympic trip they had the 7/7 bombings, which likely didn't ratchet the threat level down any.

[Suvorov]

It was a tad snarky( but at least I didn't say SMAW Thermobaric missile, just in case) I've been hearing, be prepared for anything and there's been stories of guys that wished they'd had guns but still survived. Most people, like me with the tow rope learn the hard way. A smart man learns from his mistakes a wise man learns from other people's mistakes. Im trying to be a wise man ( and not just wise ass).

I'm athletic but have no tactical training. I'm totally comfortable with my pistol, 99% sure I'd be comfortable with it on me. Pretty good shot. Handle well under high pressure situations. So I guess it's just a matter of carrying it around when I get the license, see how I feel.

Seems like it would be cool if there was some tactical training for civilians. I'm guessing there is, but maybe super expensive.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Have you been listening to the PodCasts made by our very own John Johnson of Ballistic Radio (http://ballisticradio.com/) (if you facebook (https://www.facebook.com/BallisticRadio))? If not, then you are really missing out and you need to beat feet to his page and start listening. A few hours spend listening to his guests will be far more productive than 10 more pages of circular discussion on the forums here. In addition to volumes of outstanding material with regard to the carry mindset as well as interviews with doods who won the "Lottery", there will be plenty of information of what kind of training is available to you and who some of the top tier instructors out there are as well as how to seek and find a quality local instructor to get your feet on the ground.

It is an evolutionary journey. I remember when I first started getting into pistols and "defensive shooting" I fell in with a group of LE/Mil guys who had been in it for a while. We would head for the hills and while they all carried with rounds in the chamber, I just couldn't bring myself to carrying that way because I simply didn't understand enough to know that a) I may not have time to load and b) doing things differently to suit my anticipation of "need" is a sure shine way to get myself in trouble.

P.S. Not sure what you can do if you are worried about a Thermobaric device other than wear a ziplock bag around to make cleanup easy.

[Suvorov]

I would embarrassingly like to correct myself.

Our very own John Johnston. :o

[johnnyyukon]

Have you been listening to the PodCasts made by our very own John Johnson of Ballistic Radio (http://ballisticradio.com/) (if you facebook (https://www.facebook.com/BallisticRadio))? If not, then you are really missing out and you need to beat feet to his page and start listening. A few hours spend listening to his guests will be far more productive than 10 more pages of circular discussion on the forums here. In addition to volumes of outstanding material with regard to the carry mindset as well as interviews with doods who won the "Lottery", there will be plenty of information of what kind of training is available to you and who some of the top tier instructors out there are as well as how to seek and find a quality local instructor to get your feet on the ground.

It is an evolutionary journey. I remember when I first started getting into pistols and "defensive shooting" I fell in with a group of LE/Mil guys who had been in it for a while. We would head for the hills and while they all carried with rounds in the chamber, I just couldn't bring myself to carrying that way because I simply didn't understand enough to know that a) I may not have time to load and b) doing things differently to suit my anticipation of "need" is a sure shine way to get myself in trouble.

P.S. Not sure what you can do if you are worried about a Thermobaric device other than wear a ziplock bag around to make cleanup easy.

Ha, ok I'll try to check it out.

On the evolution, yeah, I mean, I didn't grow up around guns. I didn't buy one until a year ago (I'm 30). So, this is all pretty new to me. It wasn't until I shot mine, and took it apart and cleaned it and got some instruction that I got really comfortable. I triple check the chamber if I ever do a dry fire, and it usually lays on my bedside table. I don't even think about it (I also don't have kids). A year ago, that thought might have scared me.

Yeah, I'm not too worried about a Thermobaric shoulder missile. I have heard that can get a tad messy.

I think I already pissed off trooper224. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, my personality type is pretty "Devil's Advocate." And you're right, this is a Big Boy forum, so I need to check that shit.

[johnnyyukon]

I was last in London in 2004, they were carrying subguns then too. And between then and your pre-Olympic trip they had the 7/7 bombings, which likely didn't ratchet the threat level down any.

Ok, I'm going to attempt to re-rail (probably not a word) this thread back on track.

I really think that must have been a timing issue. Everything I've found says British police do NOT carry firearms, although they do have police armed response vehicles. And as of 2006, a survey of 47,328 Police Federation members found 82% did not want officers to be routinely armed on duty, despite almost half saying their lives had been "in serious jeopardy" during the previous three years.

And, as many officers have said, they want citizens to feel they can be approached (weird to me, an officer with a gun is not UNapproachable) Ironically most of the public DID want them armed. A centre-right think-tank Policy Exchange found 72% of 2,156 adults wanted to see more armed police patrols (2007).

Just interesting.

[abu fitna]

Responding to the return to the original direction of this thread

Keep in mind that firearms certification in the UK is not quite the same as our models. It is clearly more perfunctory in many ways, and works with the worst problems of introducing new shooters that will not be investing their own time and energy into achieving or sustaining proficiency. Even if a PC is motivated, this can be a disincentive.

At one point there was a degree of respect and elite esprit de corp associated with armed units, especially those cross tabbed for CT responsibilities. Organizational changes, infighting, and politicization has ended much of this according to the folks that I know that lived through the transition from the SO13 days. Not to say there might not still be good folks doing good things, but disincentives pile up.

Add additional disincentives for the complex firearms handling processes, changes to shifts and other work factors when moving to an armed assignment, the threat of litigation and a media circus around every shoot (without the organizational culture - right or wrong - that is seen as giving the PC a fair go in an OIS); and one begins to see the reason for this expressed preference. There is also a strong cultural factor in that this is the expected answer, so one gets what one prompts in polling. Private conversations may differ, but with stipulations regarding changes to the disincentives.

Having said all of this, there are indeed quite a number of firearms in service. As others have noticed, it is not uncommon to see MP5 or MP7 armed officers across a number of venues. Whilst this is more prominently a London thing due to centralization of high visibility locations, it is also a thing elsewhere. Armed foot patrol is usually a two officer pair, one with the long gun and the other with a Glock. Response units vehicle packages are typically the same, with more than one pair assigned in some cases depending on staffing, severity of incident. (Think of this somewhat equivalent to our SWAT on patrol or active shooter response concepts).

But keep in mind that expected policing behaviors differ very strongly in a lot of ways. UK police are much more inclined to simply show up after an incident is over and sort out the paperwork (and usually, CCTV footage) - rather than actively become involved in the kinds of things that are the good calls that US officers want to rush to. The pressure to under-report crimes as part of statistics games, the much greater focus on financial fraud / environmental / social & "community" cases and volume crime cases versus harder to address violent crime issues also all take a toll. (Not unlike some urban US departments, as we have seen.) Again, it is hard to make generalizations, but there is no small degree of difference in management emphasis that goes into how situations involving use of force arise, and how they are viewed in the culture (and history, however recent) of an organization.

The UK in some ways is not nearly as bad off across some of these values as some continental forces that issue more routinely (as much as it pains me to see.) There are other restrictions that can be simply insane from the perspective of force science studies, and the case history - moreso in recent times - seems to bear out why such restrictions (limited round count, restricted carry modes and conditions, training cycle problems, etc. most glaringly) deeply impair effectiveness.

I guess the real question is what does this teach us? It is one thing to have idle conversation regarding comparative policing cultures and the obvious empty gun belt (with hinged cuffs carried where one expects to see a service weapon). It is another for such conversation to advance our mutual objectives as students of the gun. Where is this going?

I might suggest that the discussion reminds us of why we should carry, and how to make sure that the things around the mechanisms by which we make these arms our constant companions don't create disincentives to training, good equipment selection, socialization, and the willingness to pick up the necessary burden on a day to day basis. I think the earlier issues in this thread suggest that such ideas deserve reminder.

[JAD]

For those of you who haven't read 'A Clockwork Orange,' please at least see the movie.

[Skaaphaas]

I really do find it strange. A few years ago, when the hooligan youth tore up London, people were arming themselves with baseball bats, and the police were still largely unarmed.

When the two extremists murdered the ex soldier with cleaver knives, the police had to hide and call the "armed police", who then arrived with MP5s and shot the murderous bastard.

I have seen stats showing the UK to have the most violent crime per capita of all countries in the world, but the police aren't armed.

(The stat may be skewed by what the nanny staters define as "violent crime", though)

[Tamara]

I have seen stats showing the UK to have the most violent crime per capita of all countries in the world, but the police aren't armed.

(The stat may be skewed by what the nanny staters define as "violent crime", though)

I have been on the phone with a friend in Old Blighty, 'way back in '01 or '02, when a dude started climbing through the window of his lit ground floor flat to try and steal the laptop off his desk with him right there in the room. Back when I commuted daily on a motorcycle, I used to read the British sportbike rags and they were all the time having personal bikes and even test bikes stolen; meanwhile, I parked nightly on the street in Midtown Atlanta without so much as a padlock through the front disc. Friends I know who visit England regularly talk about how the town centres are not places one goes at night unless one is young and drunk and in a group.

And yet the average American has a very Chamber of Commerce view of England based on London tourist districts and Home Office-massaged crime statistics. It'd be like judging Chicago by a weekday afternoon in Hyde Park while POTUS was in town.

[TheTrevor]

Apropos to Abu Fitna's excellent comment above about the city centers: on my last trip to the UK I was out for a pint after work in downtown London with co-workers when I saw a quad of armed PCs all with sub guns strolling through the area. This caused me to reevaluate my tactical priorities with a quickness. Finished my adult beverage, said my goodbyes, and departed for my hotel forthwith, because sure enough the crowds were trending younger and drunker.

[David Armstrong]

Yeah, and I don't judge anyone for it. Hell, maybe when I get my license, I will too. Just in my experience, haven't felt the need.
Lots of folks fit into that category and seem to get by just fine. I regularly survey my CCW students when they come for their renewals and very few of them carry regularly. Most choose to carry only when they feel the threat/danger level increases to a certain point. I don't necessarily object to that, as we all compromise to some extent with our personal protection and it seems problematic to argue one compromise point is right for everyone every time.

[Bigguy]

I regularly survey my CCW students when they come for their renewals and very few of them carry regularly. Most choose to carry only when they feel the threat/danger level increases to a certain point. I don't necessarily object to that, as we all compromise to some extent with our personal protection and it seems problematic to argue one compromise point is right for everyone every time.

That surprises me. With absolutely zero data to form an opinion, I just assumed that most of the people who go through the trouble to get a concealed carry license would carry most of the time.
I originally didn't plan to carry all of the time. But the philosophy from my motorcycle side about helmets carried over. We talk, tongue in cheek, about not wearing a helmet until that ride where you will have a wreck. The more I thought about it, the more the idea of not carrying until I need it seen to be be just as wise as not wearing a helmet (or seat belts) until I needed it.

[GardoneVT]

That surprises me. With absolutely zero data to form an opinion, I just assumed that most of the people who go through the trouble to get a concealed carry license would carry most of the time.

In some cases, people acquire CCW permits without any intent of actually using it that way. In some states having a permit to carry cuts down on red tape connected to transporting and buying guns. Some folks get them to ensure they can share cars and spaces with their spouse who DOES carry without going to jail for illegal possession/ownership/ use of a gun. Another subset: some get a CCW permit or Firearm Owners ID without even having a gun. Why ? Because if there's an emergency they can buy a weapon and ammo and use immediately , instead of having to file forms and being told 'come back to the store in 60 days with credentials'.

[Tamara]

That surprises me. With absolutely zero data to form an opinion, I just assumed that most of the people who go through the trouble to get a concealed carry license would carry most of the time.

From all my experience, that is absolutely true.

1) A lot of people work in non-permissive environments and don't want to risk getting caught violating company policy (or perhaps even breaking the law) or figuring out a way to secure a gun on arrival and get re-strapped when they leave.

2) For a lot of people that plastic card with the voudoun veves on it in their wallet is just a fetish to keep away the bad guys, much like the Taurus 85 in the sock drawer back home is a ballistic rabbit's foot. They take their gun if they're "going someplace they'll need a gun." Ask them why, if the place is so dangerous that they think they'll need a gun, they just don't go there, and you'll get a blank stare. I don't grok the mindset where every trip out the door involves some bullkitten actuarial analysis on whether a gun will be needed. Nobody in the morgue or the police blotter thought they were going to need a gun that day, either.

[TheTrevor]

What Tam said, on both points.

I'm reminded of point (2) every time I'm braced with a request for cash donations from a sketchy character in broad daylight in a parking lot or gas station. Like today, in the Lowe's parking lot.

I always wonder if THIS will be the time the sketchy dude snaps when I ignore him or decline, and escalates the situation to deadly force.

[Wheeler]

What Tam said, on both points.

I'm reminded of point (2) every time I'm braced with a request for cash donations from a sketchy character in broad daylight in a parking lot or gas station. Like today, in the Lowe's parking lot.

I always wonder if THIS will be the time the sketchy dude snaps when I ignore him or decline, and escalates the situation to deadly force.

^^^This right here. My usual answer is "I don't have it to give." That takes a lot of the negotiation room out of their follow-up requests.

[TheTrevor]

^^^This right here. My usual answer is "I don't have it to give." That takes a lot of the negotiation room out of their follow-up requests.

I swear, one of these days I'm going to say "I don't carry cash" and Mr Sketchy is going to whip out a smartphone with a Square credit card reader accessory on it.

[Wheeler]

One of the funniest encounters I had was when I was approached and asked for a "cigarette on credit." I was so amused that I shared a duke with the guy. Two days later (at the same location), he approached and asked me again. I told him he already owed me one and he'd have to pay me back before I gave him another. The look on his face was priceless. :-)

[Sigfan26]

I actually did a comparative course in college on the US vs. UK criminal justice system. The majority of them don't actually like the idea of being armed due to the lack of double jeopardy.

In one instance, an armed response unit reported to a bar where a man claimed to have a shotgun in a pillowcase. When they arrived, the man lifted the pillow case at them, lethal force was deemed necessary and the man was shot and killed. They found an old table leg, not a shotgun, in the pillow case. The officer was brought up on murder charges and acquitted... Then recharged and convicted... Then acquitted again on appeal. Most have no desire to carry a gun due to that.

The crazy thing about the armed personnel is their qualification score: pass/fail. 100% is pass, anything less is fail. The officers I talked to, that knew a little bit about the US, actually thought that arming all officers was smart... But thought that our qualification scores should be more stringent.

[Cookie Monster]

^^^This right here. My usual answer is "I don't have it to give." That takes a lot of the negotiation room out of their follow-up requests.


My line is "I have nothing that you want."

Cookie Monster

[Wheeler]

My line is "I have nothing that you want."

Cookie Monster

That works as well!

[David Armstrong]

That surprises me. With absolutely zero data to form an opinion, I just assumed that most of the people who go through the trouble to get a concealed carry license would carry most of the time.
I originally didn't plan to carry all of the time. But the philosophy from my motorcycle side about helmets carried over. We talk, tongue in cheek, about not wearing a helmet until that ride where you will have a wreck. The more I thought about it, the more the idea of not carrying until I need it seen to be be just as wise as not wearing a helmet (or seat belts) until I needed it.
I would suggest it is not so much a "not carrying until I need it" concept as it is a "looking at my lifestyle there are times when the odds against me go up" concept. Let's use the helmet and seat belt thing. I bet you don't wear the helmet at home, or use a seatbelt when kicked back on the couch at home. You just don't think you will need it, in spite of the fact that things can fall out of the sky and hit you in the head, or things can happen that would throw you off the couch and injure you. Sure, anything can happen at any time....but the chances of it happening differ quite a bit. An example I like to use is the tiger attack. It is quite possible that a vicious tiger will attack you today. But it isn't too darned likely, so most of us don't worry about keeping tools around to defend against the tiger.

I've had a number of female realtors get the CCW through me. There really isn't much concern from them for most of their daily activities, but they like the ability to arm themselves for the times when they have to go out by themselves to an isolated location to meet with someone they have only talked with over the phone. So they don't carry most of the time, but when they feel the odds of danger are increased to a certain point they will then carry the gun. I don't think it is any different than anything else we do in life, we all constantly play the odds and decide what to do based on analyzing the likely outcomes. Usually it is a rather informal process based on perception, other times it can be a formal process driven by data. The decision when to carry (or similarly what to carry or where to carry the gun) is much like any other decision about "when". I do not drive in major metropolitan areas during certain times because the traffic conditions are unacceptable to me, but I might drive through the same area at a different time with little or no concern. I might visit parts of town at one time but be unwilling to go there at others. Someone else might look at the same stuff and come to a different decision based on what they feel is acceptable. Again, we all analyze, theorize and compromise with this stuff and what seems to be a horrible decision to one can be a perfectly logical and reasoned decision to another.

[GardoneVT]

Someone else might look at the same stuff and come to a different decision based on what they feel is acceptable. Again, we all analyze, theorize and compromise with this stuff and what seems to be a horrible decision to one can be a perfectly logical and reasoned decision to another.

Except you can't deduce when you'll have a human threat to your life via analysis. The very definition of an emergency is an event you can't predict.

The two times I faced that situation were cases which would pass the "I probably don't need a gun here" test. One time I needed to reach for my gun was in the living room of my family home against a drunk relative intent on some bad actions. Of all the times I drove trough Chicago unarmed, the time I had to reach for a weapon in IL was in my childhood home in the suburbs.

[Wheeler]

Except you can't deduce when you'll have a human threat to your life via analysis. The very definition of an emergency is an event you can't predict.

The two times I faced that situation were cases which would pass the "I probably don't need a gun here" test. One time I needed to reach for my gun was in the living room of my family home against a drunk relative intent on some bad actions. Of all the times I drove trough Chicago unarmed, the time I had to reach for a weapon in IL was in my childhood home in the suburbs.


Most folks base their lifestyle on anecdotal evidence such as this. Very few folks I know truly make their choices based on statistics and analysis of available data but on perception. The leading a horse to water cliche most definitely applies here.

[jlw]

Tom Givens does an excellent lecture titled "Defining the Threat". He frames the issue quite well.

When I was a rookie just out the academy, I figured that in a town of 120K with another 30K+ college student to boot that I could go about my normal off duty affairs anonymously.

That changed when I went out to dinner one night. The guy at the next table was the first guy I arrested after FTO. He had been convicted in court that day and lost his job. My perspective changed immediately. It changed again when a colleague in a neighboring county was assassinated on his doorstep by the target of a drug investigation in which we had just executed a warrant and made an arrest.

If I really only carried to places where I felt I had a "need" I wouldn't carry that often because I wouldn't be going many places.

[JeffJ]

The way I see it; if I carry this thing everyday from now until I die and never need it, it will have cost me very little but, if I choose not to carry it and it turns out that I do need it - it could cost me everything.

That being said, I carry almost everywhere all the time - sometimes I have to take a flight into a city and back in the same day and I choose to carry on and not check a gun. Occasionally I'll also go somewhere it's not legal to carry. Other than that, I've most likely got a gun on me, it's not a big deal once you get used to it.

[NickA]

The simplest way I've heard it put is "It's not the odds, it's the stakes."
(I believe Kathy Jackson came up with that but I may be wrong)

[Tamara]

The simplest way I've heard it put is "It's not the odds, it's the stakes."
(I believe Kathy Jackson came up with that but I may be wrong)

Marko used to say that on TFL and GlockTalk, 'way back when he was still posting as "Lendringser"; I cheerfully stole it. :)

[NickA]

Marko used to say that on TFL and GlockTalk, 'way back when he was still posting as "Lendringser"; I cheerfully stole it. :)

Knew I heard it from a smart lady, just had 'em mixed up ;)

[David Armstrong]

Except you can't deduce when you'll have a human threat to your life via analysis. The very definition of an emergency is an event you can't predict.
True, but that is not restricted to the "when to carry a gun" issue. "When to wear a helmet" or "when to keep a tiger gun handy" or multiple other things fit into the same concept. And while you can't predict exactly when an emergency will occur you certainly can predict, with varying degrees of accuracy, the relative likelihood of a particular emergency occurring at any given time or in any given situation. The chance of being attacked by a great white shark, for example, is much higher when swimming along the California coast than when swimming in a farm pond near Topeka, Kansas.


The two times I faced that situation were cases which would pass the "I probably don't need a gun here" test. One time I needed to reach for my gun was in the living room of my family home against a drunk relative intent on some bad actions. Of all the times I drove trough Chicago unarmed, the time I had to reach for a weapon in IL was in my childhood home in the suburbs.
Again, any thing can happen at any time, that doesn't change the fact that certain things are more likely at certain times or places and less likely at others. It's always going to be a matter of compromise. One cannot be prepared for all things at all times.

[GardoneVT]

Again, any thing can happen at any time, that doesn't change the fact that certain things are more likely at certain times or places and less likely at others. It's always going to be a matter of compromise. One cannot be prepared for all things at all times.

Having a few flight hours under my belt now, I can answer this with the following real-life example; before jumping into a Cessna I do a pre-flight inspection of the aircraft. I also follow a specific checklist pre-flight and pre-landing. If we evaluate those actions on the basis of "odds", then I'm clearly insane.The commercial pilots are even more nuts, given that out of all the methods of transport aviation is consistently the safest - kinda like guns, the media likes to blow the risk out of proportion for saucy headlines.

Yet I still do it, and so does every conscientious pilot. Because the consequences if things go bad are too serious to do otherwise. So it goes for firearms. It might be statistically unlikely you'll ever suffer an incident on a commercial aircraft, but the pilot still follows a checklist-because 100+ dead people is a BAD thing.If a pilot told the FAA he'd skipped the takeoff checklist because odds are he'll never suffer an emergency, he'd be doing something else for a living. The calculus is no different on the individual level for CCW.

[Wheeler]

Having a few flight hours under my belt now, I can answer this with the following real-life example; before jumping into a Cessna I do a pre-flight inspection of the aircraft. I also follow a specific checklist pre-flight and pre-landing. If we evaluate those actions on the basis of "odds", then I'm clearly insane.The commercial pilots are even more nuts, given that out of all the methods of transport aviation is consistently the safest - kinda like guns, the media likes to blow the risk out of proportion for saucy headlines.

Yet I still do it, and so does every conscientious pilot. Because the consequences if things go bad are too serious to do otherwise. So it goes for firearms. It might be statistically unlikely you'll ever suffer an incident on a commercial aircraft, but the pilot still follows a checklist-because 100+ dead people is a BAD thing.If a pilot told the FAA he'd skipped the takeoff checklist because odds are he'll never suffer an emergency, he'd be doing something else for a living. The calculus is no different on the individual level for CCW.

And here I was thinking tha the aviation industry was in part as safe as it is because of the adherence to checklists, not in spite of them.

[LSP972]

I've got two pals who are senior captains for big airlines. After listening to them describe the "new breed" of up-coming pilots- "Let's go fly the jet, dude!"- it reinforces my decision to never get on a commercial aircraft again.

That vow was made initially after narrowly avoiding getting thrown in jail due to the nearly irresistible desire to whip the ass of a certain TSA moron in Newark. Hearing about these new pilots, many of whom are apparently less serious about the profession than has been the tradition, just sealed my resolve.

.

[David Armstrong]

Having a few flight hours under my belt now, I can answer this with the following real-life example; before jumping into a Cessna I do a pre-flight inspection of the aircraft. I also follow a specific checklist pre-flight and pre-landing. If we evaluate those actions on the basis of "odds", then I'm clearly insane.The commercial pilots are even more nuts, given that out of all the methods of transport aviation is consistently the safest - kinda like guns, the media likes to blow the risk out of proportion for saucy headlines.

Yet I still do it, and so does every conscientious pilot. Because the consequences if things go bad are too serious to do otherwise. So it goes for firearms. It might be statistically unlikely you'll ever suffer an incident on a commercial aircraft, but the pilot still follows a checklist-because 100+ dead people is a BAD thing.If a pilot told the FAA he'd skipped the takeoff checklist because odds are he'll never suffer an emergency, he'd be doing something else for a living. The calculus is no different on the individual level for CCW.
Not sure what that has to do with what I am saying. I'm not suggesting one should skip a checklist or not do an analysis. What I am suggesting is the checklist/analysis can differ for different folks based on different situations. You might check stuff on the Cessna 150 that you would not check on a Boeing 707, and the reverse. You might check something real close in one environment that you might not worry as much about in another environment. Shucks, do you worry about and prepare for a tiger attack while you are sitting at home? No, because the odds are rather slim. If you are wandering around a mangrove swamp in India, maybe those odds go up. It is no different for CCW.

[Joe in PNG]

To continue David's point- even in a Cessna 150, the checklist and procedures for a normal takeoff are different than those for a short field take off.

[David Armstrong]

To continue David's point- even in a Cessna 150, the checklist and procedures for a normal takeoff are different than those for a short field take off.
Yes, thanks! That is what I was trying to convey in the environment comment, but you make it much clearer. I guess it's been too long since I was flying. :(

[FotoTomas]

I was an MP in Korea during 1975 to 76. 142d MP Co, Yongsan Garrison Seoul. There were several Korean National Police (KNP) officers that stood gate duty with us on a regular basis. The empty holster was common. So was swapping the revolver from one to another as they changed shifts. We even had a box at one of the gates for the KNP's to park their revolver when no KNP's were on duty. Most often they had a backup KNP with a M1 Carbine nearby.

We also had a small stash of cash under the MP Desk to "assist" with the recovery of GI's that got a little rowdy at the Itaewon entertainment district Police Box. I never did find out why they called their local offices Boxes though. During my 13 months there I do not recall of a single KNP shooting in the areas. The local Koreans tended to be somewhat subservient to the KNP tactics and brutality when it came to controlling disorderly people. The police club was carried and used often. As a side note...the private ownership and possession of firearms was almost completely banned. There were few firearm armed criminals about. I might add that during my many soujourns downtown I never felt the need to be armed. Then again I was young, lean, mean and full of piss and vinegar. Getting old sucks.

The Republic of Korea (RoK) Army Military Police however were a very different breed. Sharp, stract and very physical. There was often problems with the North Korean infiltrators at the DMZ and area waterfronts such as Inchon. Lots of gunfights there but they were military. One did NOT mess with a RoK MP. As I was leaving the "Tree Trimming Incident" took place. Thought the Hot War was about to start. Korea was a very unique place.

[johnnyyukon]

The simplest way I've heard it put is "It's not the odds, it's the stakes."
(I believe Kathy Jackson came up with that but I may be wrong)

HandgunWorldShow: "Why do I carry a gun? Because I can't carry a cop."

[LSP972]

As I was leaving the "Tree Trimming Incident" took place. Thought the Hot War was about to start. Korea was a very unique place.

I got there about six months after that. Things were still pretty tense.

And the next year, the Chinook got shot down. My company (B 1/38, Camp Hovey), was on Hot Apple alert. We were saddled up with the rotors turning when the call came to stand down. Good thing, too; the crash site was several miles inside North Korea (turtle pilot got lost), they had a battalion or more of troops surrounding the bird by the time Washington got off its a$$ and decided to try and extract the crew. We would have been slaughtered.

.

[Drang]

I got there about six months after that. Things were still pretty tense.

And the next year, the Chinook got shot down. My company (B 1/38, Camp Hovey), was on Hot Apple alert. We were saddled up with the rotors turning when the call came to stand down. Good thing, too; the crash site was several miles inside North Korea (turtle pilot got lost), they had a battalion or more of troops surrounding the bird by the time Washington got off its a$$ and decided to try and extract the crew. We would have been slaughtered..
I spent a very memorable night (1985?) on Courtesy Patrol when 1/23 came back from the QRF and was directed by their BC to "take back our ville from those kittenheads in 1/38."
FWIW, a Motorola brick radio makes a decent CQC weapon.

At that time any 11B or 95B who was over 6' tall still stood a very good chance of being sent to PanMunJom.

Things were much calmer on my next two tours, after we MIGs had moved to Essayons.
My last tour was at Stanley, and the gun bunnies did make things a little sporty, but not as much as Togori.

[johnnyyukon]

What are the "statistics" dealing with the likelihood of someone being violently assaulted:
a) In their place of residence?
b) Outside their place of residence?

Oh, I meant to post this earlier:

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=44

[MarkDP]

"Got a violent suspect with a gun? Phone HQ ( or the police,{added by me}) for armed backup and hide" .[/QUOTE] I think the scariest thing for a citizens is that LEO's in general, expect exactly that from citizens. I've told those in my family, that the Police and Firefighters are NOT the first responders in a life threatening situation, YOU are. Police and firefighters CANNOT be everywhere at once, so you better have a plan, as much as you are able. Train to your Probabilities!

[Wheeler]

"Got a violent suspect with a gun? Phone HQ (the police,added by me) for armed backup and hide" .
I think the scariest thing for a citizens is that LEO's in general, expect exactly that from citizens. I've told those in my family, that the Police and Firefighters are NOT the first responders in a life threatening situation, YOU are. Police and firefighters CANNOT be everywhere at once, so you better have a plan, as much as you are able. Train to your Probabilities!

I posted up the exact same sentiment on my Facebook page and got a good bit of ire from cops and firefighters. It seems that many like the idea of being referred to as "First Responder." I suspect many of those view themselves as heroes for simply putting on their uniforms and showing up at work, regardless of their actions that day.

[JAD]

This was formative to my thinking on the matter.
http://www.frfrogspad.com/crisis.htm


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LSP972]

I spent a very memorable night (1985?) on Courtesy Patrol when 1/23 came back from the QRF and was directed by their BC to "take back our ville from those kittenheads in 1/38."


Hah… 1/23… never mind.;)

Speaking of Star Base Hovey; in 2001 or so, I had to interview a rookie who had been accused of some heinous stuff by an irate citizen. It was BS, of course, but we had to go through the motions. Mainly, we chatted, and he admitted to being stationed at Hovey in 1998-99. He brought some photos back a few days later. Keep in mind, these were taken 20+ years after we were there… and NOTHING HAD CHANGED. He had one shot, taken from the ridge adjacent to the parade ground… and I could make out the kittening Quonset hut I lived in for a year. Different units, of course, but he said there were still three battalions of grunts living in Quonset huts, with those same useless oil-fired "heaters".

Sounds like you did multiple tours. Got hooked on the yobos, eh???:cool:

.

[Drang]

Sounds like you did multiple tours. Got hooked on the yobos, eh???:cool:.
I was a Korean linguist. (MOSC 98G4LC8KP. Now 35S, I think.)
Very possibly the only one who did 20 years and didn't marry a Korean, FWIW.
Also, only ever had the one Soju Experience, but it was an epic one...

[Trooper224]

Also, only ever had the one Soju Experience, but it was an epic one...

Soju.........................my god, just the thought of that stuff sends a searing pain through my head.

[FotoTomas]

As a side note, the Korean nationals that worked with us as contract security (SP Brassards for Security Police) were much better armed than the KNP's. .45's and shotguns depending on the posts. Then there was an incident where at a remote post one was killed with a blunt weapon and his shotgun stolen. That was when they started giving the night security posts sticks instead of shotguns. Strange place for sure.

I regret to add that I became addicted to Kimchi over there. Got to a point where my KATUSA room mate complained of my smell. As for those oil fired heaters... The MP gate shack I worked out of at the main Supply Point 51 in Seoul for several months was small enough that the heater could run you out into the cold. That and it was great for cooking up some rice and egg drop ramen on as well. :)

Anyone remember Walker Hill Casino?

[LSP972]

Soju.........................my god, just the thought of that stuff sends a searing pain through my head.

Yeah, but jinro was worse, in my book. That stuff makes EverClear look like Boone's Farm Strawberry Hill. And the rice wine… mokli?… was just plain nasty.

Kimchi?? Good lord, man… just the thought of it gags me.

Drawing a blank on Walker Hill Casino. Of course, I only made it in to I-Tae-Won a few times. Those of us out in the hinterlands rarely saw the nicer amenities the country had to offer.

.

[Drang]

Yeah, but jinro was worse, in my book. That stuff makes EverClear look like Boone's Farm Strawberry Hill.
Jinro is a brand of Soju. I can get it locally, as I am in the middle of what is reputed to be the fourth largest Korean-speaking metropolitan area in the world.
(I once had to send a KATUSA to Track III due to a Soju addiction...)


And the rice wine… mokli?… was just plain nasty.
Some Makoli is quite good. Go the the country and buy it fresh, the KATUSAs were good for information on where to get the best...


Kimchi?? Good lord, man… just the thought of it gags me.
Kimche is also a generic term for pickled vegetables. I am quite fond of Gaktoogi, which is pickled radishes. Mrs Drang found a recipe using standard Western-style radishes instead of Daikon, and it tastes just like Gaktoogi. (Her pickled beets are the best, though!)
Drawing a blank on Walker Hill Casino. Of course, I only made it in to I-Tae-Won a few times. Those of us out in the hinterlands rarely saw the nicer amenities the country had to offer.[/QUOTE]
Been pretty much replaced by the Dragon Hill Lodge, although, since most if not all US Military property in Seoul has been turned over to the ROK Government, I'm not sure if it's still there.
EUSA HQ is now at Camp Humphreys, and I believe 2ID HQ has begun the move, too.

[LSP972]

Jinro is a brand of Soju.

Ah. Well, the one time I imbibed, it knocked me on my kitten. I tended to stay out of the ville, for obvious reasons (I was an E-6 acting platoon sergeant), but one night one of the mama-sans put on an "NCO night" at the biggest mokli house outside the Hovey gate. The first shirt was going, so I did too.

Man… that stuff is EVIL.

2ID is moving south? Interesting… one wonders what the status of Casey and CRC will be…


.