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View Full Version : FAST Drill with a revolver?



Sherman A. House DDS
06-23-2011, 08:53 AM
Anybody done it? I'm thinking J-frame...not some ESR race gun that isn't a carry piece. I feel an experiment in the works!

JV_
06-23-2011, 08:55 AM
I thought someone was going to run it with a new Chiappa revolver?

Sherman A. House DDS
06-23-2011, 08:59 AM
I'll give it a go with a J-frame and my K-frame SSR (m64) and see how it works. I'm thinking of doing it with both SLOW strips and with speedloaders (in different runs). I'll probably video it too.

Jay Cunningham
06-23-2011, 09:00 AM
Taurus Judge with buckshot.

ToddG
06-23-2011, 09:04 AM
I think joshs did it in a class once but I cannot remember the result. And I'm sure caleb has done it a number of times.

SLG and I put together a little rough draft of a shooting game once and it used the FAST as the classifier. You would shoot it three times in a row and your aggregate score determined your classification. For "Master" class you had to be under 15.00 seconds with a semiauto, or 18.00 seconds with a revolver.

DonovanM
06-23-2011, 09:31 AM
I think joshs did it in a class once but I cannot remember the result. And I'm sure caleb has done it a number of times.

SLG and I put together a little rough draft of a shooting game once and it used the FAST as the classifier. You would shoot it three times in a row and your aggregate score determined your classification. For "Master" class you had to be under 15.00 seconds with a semiauto, or 18.00 seconds with a revolver.

What, no 12 second GM class? :p

MechEng
06-23-2011, 09:34 AM
Someone contact Jerry Miculek. I’m sure he can show us how it’s done.

orionz06
06-23-2011, 09:39 AM
Taurus Judge with buckshot.

Using the Winchester PDX you would only need 1 headshot.

jetfire
06-23-2011, 10:40 AM
I ran FAST repeatedly using a 686SSR out of a OWB holster with Comp-III speedloaders. On a good day, I could get into the mid 5 second range using this set-up from concealment, however average times were around 6+ seconds. The issue that you run into with a revolver is that your reload takes FOREVER. I was talking to one of the better SSR shooters in the country, and we worked out that a blazing fast SSR reload is around 2.5 seconds. That's a perfect reload, which you're not going to get every time. More likely you'll be around 3 or 4 seconds, which means any hope of a coin is lost and just getting a pin is going to be very hard work.

That being said, it's actually a really good revolver drill. Since reloading is key to winning in IDPA or USPSA with a revo, the FAST is an excellent gauge of your ability to perform IDPA critical skills on the clock.

Slavex
06-23-2011, 10:42 AM
Pin? what's this Pin you speak of? Is this what Todd was going to mail me???

ToddG
06-23-2011, 10:56 AM
Pin? what's this Pin you speak of? Is this what Todd was going to mail me???

You were supposed to keep one out of the ones I sent, doofus!

Sherman A. House DDS
06-23-2011, 01:16 PM
I ran FAST repeatedly using a 686SSR out of a OWB holster with Comp-III speedloaders. On a good day, I could get into the mid 5 second range using this set-up from concealment, however average times were around 6+ seconds. The issue that you run into with a revolver is that your reload takes FOREVER. I was talking to one of the better SSR shooters in the country, and we worked out that a blazing fast SSR reload is around 2.5 seconds. That's a perfect reload, which you're not going to get every time. More likely you'll be around 3 or 4 seconds, which means any hope of a coin is lost and just getting a pin is going to be very hard work.

That being said, it's actually a really good revolver drill. Since reloading is key to winning in IDPA or USPSA with a revo, the FAST is an excellent gauge of your ability to perform IDPA critical skills on the clock.

I agree! I was thinking of this as a, "stunt," initially, but now I think it would be a great barometer.

rsa-otc
06-23-2011, 02:43 PM
Last year I gave it a try with my duty rig.
Mdl 10 pencil nose.
Safiland Topgun holster & comp ll loaders
158 grain+ p reloaded ammo
Cold
Run one- 7.8 1 shot just off 8 inch circle
Run two- 8.2 clean
Run three- 8.43 with make up shot for misfire
Run four- 7.49 1 shot just above 8 inch circle.

With my m&p 45 my best is. 5.85 cold.

jetfire
06-23-2011, 03:18 PM
I have data on it somewhere and I can dig up my exact runs. I remember however that shooting FAST with a revo is REALLY frustrating at times. Everything has to be just right to get it.

rsa-otc
06-23-2011, 03:37 PM
I remember however that shooting FAST with a revo is REALLY frustrating at times. Everything has to be just right to get it.

Exactly. & Agreed

Slavex
06-24-2011, 11:01 AM
Rur roh Shaggy,we have a problem. I never received them. US or CDN addy? You'd said CDN last time I talked to you.


You were supposed to keep one out of the ones I sent, doofus!

Al T.
06-24-2011, 07:37 PM
I've thought of running FAST with my EDC J frame, with a change. Five rounds in the 8 inch circle, reload and two just above the snot locker. For me, starting position would be with the strong hand in the pocket grasping the revolver, reload would be via the Speed Strip.

ToddG
06-24-2011, 09:52 PM
Slavex -- I don't remember now, it's been months. When I get home from OKC I'll pull up the list again and send you some more.

Wheeler
06-24-2011, 10:21 PM
I ran FAST repeatedly using a 686SSR out of a OWB holster with Comp-III speedloaders. On a good day, I could get into the mid 5 second range using this set-up from concealment, however average times were around 6+ seconds. The issue that you run into with a revolver is that your reload takes FOREVER. I was talking to one of the better SSR shooters in the country, and we worked out that a blazing fast SSR reload is around 2.5 seconds. That's a perfect reload, which you're not going to get every time. More likely you'll be around 3 or 4 seconds, which means any hope of a coin is lost and just getting a pin is going to be very hard work.

That being said, it's actually a really good revolver drill. Since reloading is key to winning in IDPA or USPSA with a revo, the FAST is an excellent gauge of your ability to perform IDPA critical skills on the clock.

So how are the mechanics of the drill set up as you ran it? Two in the cylinder to start with a reload? Starting off fully charged? Just curious as the amount of brass/cartridges coming out of the cylinder can signifigantly affect reload times.

Slavex
06-25-2011, 01:41 AM
I'd run the drill with moon clips if I was going to run this with a revolver. So for me it would be a full load to start.

jetfire
06-25-2011, 08:13 PM
So how are the mechanics of the drill set up as you ran it? Two in the cylinder to start with a reload? Starting off fully charged? Just curious as the amount of brass/cartridges coming out of the cylinder can signifigantly affect reload times.

I'd set the drill up by firing 4 shots at something, usually a 1 inch square, then run the drill with the remaining two rounds in the gun. The reason for that is if I'm reloading my revolver during an actual match, it's going to have six full cylinders, all of which need to get punched. However, I have never had problems on the "getting spent cases out" of the gun part of it - I hit the ejection rod hard enough that the cases come out with authority. However, on the reload I've had cases stick going in even when using Comp-IIIs. When I get home from this current road trip I'll set it up a couple of times with my 625 and my 686 just to get some data.

Wheeler
06-25-2011, 10:42 PM
I'd set the drill up by firing 4 shots at something, usually a 1 inch square, then run the drill with the remaining two rounds in the gun. The reason for that is if I'm reloading my revolver during an actual match, it's going to have six full cylinders, all of which need to get punched. However, I have never had problems on the "getting spent cases out" of the gun part of it - I hit the ejection rod hard enough that the cases come out with authority. However, on the reload I've had cases stick going in even when using Comp-IIIs. When I get home from this current road trip I'll set it up a couple of times with my 625 and my 686 just to get some data.

Moon clips are better for most folks. I seem to have some sort of regressive anal retentative block to moon-clip guns, and can reload with speedloaders much faster than with moonclips. That's me, it's a proven fact that I'm a bit weird anyways. :) Regardless, first chance I get, I'll run this drill with my M65, as the 686 is soon to be off to the gunsmith for a tune up. I'll use Comp II's and an IDPA vest as well. It ought to be interesting to say the least.

Wheeler

jetfire
06-26-2011, 09:53 PM
I'm actually looking forward to this, i'm going into some kind of revolver withdrawal after shooting all these silly bottom feeding guns for so long.

BN
06-27-2011, 10:48 AM
I ran this in 7 point something on my 1 run when Todd was in Marietta. I think I missed both head shots. I used my IDPA gear, Model 10 with Comp IIIs. I think I could get down in the sixes with a little practice. ;)

I agree with Caleb, one of my good reloads is 2.5 seconds with times going up from there. The rest is just consistency.

Odin Bravo One
06-27-2011, 02:05 PM
I am just waiting on the return of the revolver from getting a new front sight installed, and plan on dedicating a lot of time to working the fundamentals with the DA pull once I am reunited with it. I am convinced a sub-7.0 run is not out of the realm of a time that can be reached consistently. Since I have yet to break to the 5.0 on a PT.com sanctioned run, I am not sure I can reach that, but I am setting a goal for a sub-6.0 once I get the gun back and get a kit set up to run it properly.

Slavex
06-27-2011, 05:14 PM
we need to see if we can get Jerry Miculek to run it.

jetfire
06-27-2011, 11:05 PM
@Sean - a consistent sub 7 is totally possible. When I was shooting wheelguns exclusively, I could regularly get sub 6 second runs and stay under 7 seconds if I did my part correctly. I do actually believe that with a moonclip gun and low powered ammo that a coin is possible with a revolver, but not necessarily with a speedloader fed revolver.

Wheeler
06-28-2011, 04:19 AM
@Sean - a consistent sub 7 is totally possible. When I was shooting wheelguns exclusively, I could regularly get sub 6 second runs and stay under 7 seconds if I did my part correctly. I do actually believe that with a moonclip gun and low powered ammo that a coin is possible with a revolver, but not necessarily with a speedloader fed revolver.

Just for the hell of it, I'm going to disagree with you on that. ;) I'm going to give myself until the end of Summer to try and do that in a sub five second time with a speedloader fed gun. If nothing else, it will be fun trying :D

Wheeler

jlw
06-28-2011, 07:53 AM
That's me, it's a proven fact that I'm a bit weird anyways. :)
Wheeler

Noticed that nobody asked for a show of said proof. :)

DonovanM
06-28-2011, 10:35 AM
we need to see if we can get Jerry Miculek to run it.

Say bye-bye to Dave's record :p

Wheeler
06-28-2011, 11:19 AM
Noticed that nobody asked for a show of said proof. :)

LOL, What can I say? Some things speak for themselves. :cool:

jetfire
06-28-2011, 04:17 PM
Okay, so I pulled some data on when I ran the FAST Drill with a revolver. From my records, this is my very best run using a speedloader gun (686SSR) in .38 Special with 130 grain American Eagle FMJ. Holster is a Comp-Tac belt holster, vest for concealment, and Safariland Comp-III speedloaders.

Run 1: 5.53 clean
1.52/.41/2.88/.24/.24/.24

Run 2: 5.61 clean
1.46/.40/2.99/.25/.26/.26

Run 3: 5.96 clean
1.67/.53/3.06/.24/.23/.23

Looking at the 5.53, it would be possible to get under the 4 second mark. The problem is that you'd have to be Dave Sevigny levels of fast to do it. To shave the necessary time off the run you'd need to get your first two shots off in 1.75 seconds, reload in 2.25, and get the splits down to at least .20. That'd give you a blisteringly fast time of 4.60, but I don't know that someone who isn't a serious GM is going to be able to pull it off.

jetfire
07-01-2011, 02:07 PM
Okay, so having not shot a revolver in the past few months, I decided (for some stupid reason) to pick up my revo and do some work, including shooting the FAST Drill with my 625 and moonclips. Being out of practice, I was considerably slower than I'd like to have been, but that's life I suppose. Here are my three runs from last night:

Run 1: 6.12
1.59/.58/2.98/.35/.30/.32
Run 2: 6.02
1.73/.61/2.80/.32/.28/.28
Run 3: 5.85
1.58/.57/2.87/.30/.26/.27

I did do a 4th run where I just went balls to the walls with it for fun; I turned in a 4.97 but dropped 2 body shots and a head shot. So physically it is possible to manipulate the gun fast enough to get a coin with a 625 at least, but I'd need a lot more practice before I'd be comfortable saying I could do it.

rsa-otc
07-01-2011, 03:09 PM
Yo Caleb;

Given that you had taken a few months off of the Revolver and have been concentrating on the auto. That's not bad at all. I have recently done the opposite concentrating on the revolver for the NJ state match. Just put my 686 away and got out my M&P45 and saw a similar degradation of my performance with an auto. The triggers are different enough to cause 1/10 of a second difference on our splits. Your reloads on average are actually a bit better, but using moon clips compared to speed loaders probably accounts for that.:cool:

jetfire
07-01-2011, 05:07 PM
Thanks! Honestly, if I spent the rest of the year doing nothing but revo shooting, I actually believe I could turn in consistent times under 5.50 seconds with this set up. That being said, my hands would be a WRECK by the end of the year. Last night's practice session was 274 rounds of .45 ACP. Usually that's about what I shoot through my 1911 as well, but a 40 ounce 1911 soaks up a lot of felt recoil in a way that a 625 just doesn't. I woke up this morning why my strong hand hurt so damn bad.

rsa-otc
07-01-2011, 05:52 PM
[QUOTE=caleb;20029] Usually that's about what I shoot through my 1911 as well, but a 40 ounce 1911 soaks up a lot of felt recoil in a way that a 625 just doesn't. I woke up this morning why my strong hand hurt so damn bad.[/QUOTE)

One of the advantages of an auto over a revolver. But frankly revolvers will always be my first love. Which is why after 30 plus years away from formal sanctioned competition I chose to compete in the SSR division rather than my normal CDP.

jetfire
07-01-2011, 06:03 PM
Revolvers are also my first and truest love. I won my first state championship with a revo, and there is just something about a proper revolver that will always bring a smile to my face. I will say that the last few months of practice have paid off though - last night I shot a couple of USPSA classifier stages, my hit factors put me in high A class for one and low Master class for the other.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK39Z8kABD4

rsa-otc
07-01-2011, 06:18 PM
NICE!!!!

jetfire
07-01-2011, 06:31 PM
As a random note, I have discovered that my first shot with my 625 on a 3x5 card was generally faster AND more accurate than with my 1911. The only thing I can chalk that up to is the DA trigger giving me a better opportunity for a proper press out. With the 1911, especially with the 10-8 Performance flat trigger, it's pretty much "touch and go" with only 3.5 lbs of pressure and no take up. The 625 on the other hand has an 8 lb trigger that rolls very smoothly and resets positively, meaning I can get the gun down to .20 splits with no problems.

rsa-otc
07-01-2011, 07:16 PM
As a random note, I have discovered that my first shot with my 625 on a 3x5 card was generally faster AND more accurate than with my 1911. The only thing I can chalk that up to is the DA trigger giving me a better opportunity for a proper press out. With the 1911, especially with the 10-8 Performance flat trigger, it's pretty much "touch and go" with only 3.5 lbs of pressure and no take up. The 625 on the other hand has an 8 lb trigger that rolls very smoothly and resets positively, meaning I can get the gun down to .20 splits with no problems.

I have yet to find an auto trigger I like as much as my old PPC K Frame. Austin Belhert worked his magic, what a craftsman. There is nothing like a properly set up S&W DA trigger. As much as I like my current 686 trigger I prefer a K frame over the L or N frame. Maybe it's 30 years on a K frame trigger. But I think it has to do with the cylinder weight and the extra rotational effort required. The extra weight of the gun is great for recoil control but the K frame suits me more and I'm not a little guy at 6'4 235 lbs, 37 inch arms (knuckle dragger from way back :rolleyes:) and ham hock hands.

I'm in no way in Jerry Miculek or David Olhasso's league, but I always get a kick when I'm running my revolver at a local match and hear people in background tell others to watch because they can't believe we can run revolvers better then they can run their autos. Then Dave steps up to the line and hands me my lunch.

Wheeler
07-01-2011, 07:49 PM
I have yet to find an auto trigger I like as much as my old PPC K Frame. Austin Belhert worked his magic, what a craftsman. There is nothing like a properly set up S&W DA trigger. As much as I like my current 686 trigger I prefer a K frame over the L or N frame. Maybe it's 30 years on a K frame trigger. But I think it has to do with the cylinder weight and the extra rotational effort required. The extra weight of the gun is great for recoil control but the K frame suits me more and I'm not a little guy at 6'4 235 lbs, 37 inch arms (knuckle dragger from way back :rolleyes:) and ham hock hands.

I'm in no way in Jerry Miculek or David Olhasso's league, but I always get a kick when I'm running my revolver at a local match and hear people in background tell others to watch because they can't believe we can run revolvers better then they can run their autos. Then Dave steps up to the line and hands me my lunch.

I'm exactly the opposite, I prefer an L-Frame over a K-Frame, although the K-Frames make much better CCW guns. I've spoiled myself over the years with a Model 12 as a CCW piece.

I love taking a S&W revolver I picked up for $350 and spanking some guy with a $2k 1911 or the latest, greatest, tacticool blaster in a match.