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ToddG
02-26-2011, 05:41 PM
(from a series originally begun at firearmstrainingandtactics.com (http://www.firearmstrainingandtactics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=781))

Because it has become a topic of discussion -- both intelligent and otherwise -- lately, with your indulgence and at the suggestion of one of the FT&T owners, it seemed a thread devoted to AIWB was called for.

My personal journey with AIWB began, you could say, many years ago. A friend, whose name is Chris, was serving in a SOF role in Afganistan and was home on leave when we decided to hit the range. He was carrying a Glock 19 in an appendix holster and, like any right-thinking adult male, my immediate reaction was: you are the stupidest person I've ever met, and when you blow your dick off, I will be laughing too hard to render aid.

Chris, who had been carrying that way for many years both at home and overseas, extolled its many virtues. I, who had been using my penis recreationally for even longer, could not come to terms with the concept.

Fast forward a few years. Chris is home again, now working for an OGA, and still carrying aiwb. Through his influence, a mutual friend -- Ernest Langdon -- decides to try it and has a CCC Looper made for himself with a straight cant. Ernest begins carrying that way daily and repeatedly tells me how much he prefers it. Simultaneously, another close friend -- who was on a full-time federal tactical team with both domestic and overseas operational responsibilities -- also goes back to aiwb carry, which he used for years when he was with NYPD.

Giving in to peer pressure :cool: I tried aiwb. At first, it was something I only did with an empty gun around the house to get a feel for the technique as well as to convince myself that I could do it safely consistently. I was lucky enough to have a number of aiwb holsters land on my doorstep and began to compare them to figure out what characteristics seemed to spell the difference between a truly great aiwb and also-rans.

At the same time, I was able to talk to and train with a number of people who had a lot of experience with aiwb carry. I also started to integrate my techniques into an aiwb mode, or develop new ones that were more appropriate for aiwb.

Now that I have been carrying this way for about three years, I am convinced it is the best solution for me, for a wide range of reasons:


Concealability
Comfort
Security
Speed


I'll discuss each of those in more detail in later posts.

Of course, the major negative to aiwb is that if you fuck up, you will die. Most people understand this on an innate level, but it cannot be overstated. While you may just blow your testicles off, you are far more likely to shoot yourself in the femoral and bleed out before anyone can help you.

Say again: if you fuck up, you will die.

Reholstering takes on a whole new level of seriousness with aiwb carry. While there are a number of tweaks to your technique that can help minimize the risk, the most important point to remember is that you have essentially zero margin of error so going slowly trumps looking cool. I've had students in class who were told to slow down their aiwb reholstering or they'd be kicked out of class.

Or as one student put it: "Every time I holster my gun, I tell myself don't kill yourself first."

Carrying aiwb isn't for everyone. There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone who is uncomfortable with carrying this way. It is not a badge of honor or an indication of skill. It doesn't make you cool. Chicks don't dig it. It's simply an option with benefits and costs, like any other carry method.

ToddG
02-26-2011, 05:42 PM
A Very Brief Historical Perspective

With the uptick in popularity of aiwb lately, there is a perception that it's relatively new. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The ubiquitous Milt Sparks Summer Special, first developed by Bruce Nelson while he was working undercover, was originally an appendix holster (for a Colt Commander). That's right, the granddaddy of IWB was an appendix rig. AIWB was used extensively -- with and without a holster -- by many plainclothes and UC law enforcement officers for a very long time.

Its popularity waned with competition, particularly in IDPA where holster position was dictated as being behind the right-left centerline of the body, and in IPSC/USPSA where concealment was completely abandoned. (It's worth noting that many USPSA competitors still wear their guns forward of the hip)

Among certain crowds, though, the aiwb concept never lost favor... mostly among people who operate in non-permissive environments.

While there's a perception that aiwb's popularity spurt happened recently, there are threads at places such as Total Protection Interactive (http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68) going back more than five years discussing it in detail. Those threads credit people going back years further.

If there has been a major change in recent times, it's the resurgence of interest from holster makers who now offer far more practical, concealable, and comfortable aiwb holsters... in particular, they offer aiwb holsters that work with the kind of larger (G19 and bigger) ccw guns that are popular among the internet forum crowd.

ToddG
02-26-2011, 05:42 PM
Safety

While safety is obviously an important part of everything we do with firearms, the risk -- as Jay explained -- is different with aiwb because, stop me if you've heard this before, if you fuck up you die.

The first step to safe aiwb carry, then, is a sober and honest self-assessment. Right off the bat, if the idea of carrying aiwb doesn't freak you out a bit, you're probably too cavalier. If you're the kind of person whose friends describe him as scatterbrained or accident prone, aiwb might not be for you. If being told "aiwb isn't for you" gets your hackles up and bruises your ego, AIWB IS PROBABLY NOT FOR YOU. Choosing to carry aiwb because it has many practical advantages is fine; choosing to do it because you think it's cool is just setting yourself up for a bloody accident.

Next, you need to select a good holster. I'll discuss holster design and selection in more detail later, but the major factor in terms of safety is that the holster absolutely must remain rigid when the gun is drawn. You must be able to reholster the gun smoothly without having to wiggle the muzzle back and forth.

Gun selection is also a factor. Simple reality: the easier a gun is to shoot, the easier it is to shoot accidentally. This is true regardless of holster position, actually. A gun with a manual safety, or a gun with a hammer you can ride and control while holstering, provides a mechanical means of limiting the odds of an accident. A gun without these features (or when those features aren't used) won't give you any warning until you hear the Big Noise.

So you've got your holster and your gun. Next, my advice is to spend a week or so wearing the clear (empty, no bullets) gun, or a blue/red gun, in your aiwb around the house. Get the feel for drawing and most importantly reholstering the pistol in a safe manner. Assume that the first time you step outside with a live gun in your aiwb holster, you're going to get in a very stressful fight and then need to holster the gun in the dark while you're shaking from a massive adrenaline dump. If you don't feel comfortable doing that without hurting yourself, don't walk out the door with a live gun in your aiwb holster.

Drawing: From a safety standpoint, the key points of drawing from aiwb are to keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target (you've probably heard that in other contexts than aiwb, right?) and get the muzzle pointing forward -- away from yourself -- as early as possible.

Holstering: The major concern -- and rightfully so -- is putting the gun back in the holster without shooting yourself. Personally, I teach the following approach:


Come to a hard break after the last shot is fired. A "hard break" is a complete cessation of movement of the pistol somewhere between full extension and the holster, muzzle in a safe direction. At the hard break, you positively, consciously verify that your trigger finger is outside the trigger guard and in whatever register position you choose. If you want to scan, this is a convenient place to do it. But if you're not going to scan, you still need to freeze the gun and be absolutely certain your trigger finger is clear. Some people literally say to themselves, "Don't shoot yourself" at this point... which isn't too bad an idea.
Look along the path the gun is going to take back to the holster. Visually verify that there is nothing that will snag your trigger. In particular, be aware of zippers, pull ties, shirt flaps, retention straps, etc.
As the pistol enters the holster mouth, push the grip of the gun in towards your gut so that the muzzle angles forward. This should provide the safest path in the event everything else goes wrong and the bad noise happens. (if your pistol has a safety you engage before holstering, do so; if you have a hammer-fired gun, ride the hammer with your thumb to block its movement in case the trigger gets snagged)
Insert the gun into the holster slowly and with as little force as possible. If you feel any unusual resistance, stop, look, and assess.


The shorthand version is: Break, Look, Angle.

This isn't really a whole lot different than the way you would holster in any other position. However, because the risk of serious injury is greater in the event of a mistake, it's worth being very purposeful, conscious, and "reluctant" as some posters have said.

I cannot stress this enough: if the above list of steps seems onerous, time consuming, or unnecessary to you, DO NOT CARRY AIWB. All of the perceived advantages in the world are not worth killing yourself over holster position.

randypollock
02-26-2011, 06:00 PM
Was hoping this forum would be better than others, but when you have no clue to abbr. of even the title its a failure to beginner shooters.

ToddG
02-26-2011, 06:04 PM
Was hoping this forum would be better than others, but when you have no clue to abbr. of even the title its a failure to beginner shooters.

Fair point. Fixed the title!

randypollock
02-26-2011, 06:18 PM
Fair point. Fixed the title!

I wasn't trying to be a jerk...but I was very hopeful that this tech saavy looking forum would be different than many gun sites.

I'm a techie who works in the industry and have started to have fun with guns from getting my CCW and shooting every other week, still miss my M-16 from the Air Force, but an AR is in my future...any way.

It hasn't bee easy to overcome my fear, not of guns but the people who you have to deal with to get knowledge (or hardware)

From my experience with Gun "web folks" I have a few biases that I am trying to get over.

They are

1. The smug old timers who hate everyone unless you were an ex special forces with at least three deep penetrating wounds as scars.

2. The websites and forums from the mid 90s that have dancing gifs and discuss nothing but their hatred for plastic guns

3. Websites and forums that can't help newbies (like me)...I'm in my early forties and to be honest the biggest issue of learning to shoot wasn't the money, or information on the web...it's the un friendly folks at the clubs or the range ... or the gun shop you go in and it goes quiet until you leave. One day all the "experts" are going to die or have to be spoon feed in a home.

Then what?

Ok, I've hijacked the thread sorry...I'll hush.

(but I do feel better...going to the range most of the locals are gone now)

VolGrad
02-26-2011, 06:19 PM
This thread is very helpful. Most of all I learned you can say FUCK on this forum without repercussions.

I am already a fan of AIWB. Unfortunately, I'm too short and soft in the middle to fully utilize this method of carry.

jslaker
02-26-2011, 06:56 PM
if you have a hammer-fired gun, ride the hammer with your thumb to block its movement in case the trigger gets snagged

This is actually one of the main things that's kept me with hammer-fired guns so far. I like having that little bit of extra safety margin during administrative handling, even though I don't carry AIWB.

jslaker
02-26-2011, 07:00 PM
From my experience with Gun "web folks" I have a few biases that I am trying to get over.

Best thing you can do is ask when you have questions. I'm not involved with running things here, but given the way Todd's run PTC, the people helping him here, and the names I recognize from elsewhere, it's pretty safe to say people will try to help where possible.

ToddG
02-26-2011, 07:06 PM
Folks, let's try to keep the discussion in this thread to AIWB carry methods, techniques, and issues.

Randy was dead nuts right the initial post was vague (that's what I get for doing a cut-and-paste without thinking it through). But a discussion about gun shops and the online gun community probably belongs in the Romper Room (http://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?12-Romper-Room) section.

Thanks.

Jay Cunningham
02-26-2011, 07:11 PM
This thread is very helpful. Most of all I learned you can say FUCK on this forum without repercussions.

I wouldn't make that assumption. Say "FUCK" every other word with zero context and there will likely be repercussions.

:)

Jay Cunningham
02-26-2011, 07:12 PM
I'm a techie who works in the industry and have started to have fun with guns from getting my CCW and shooting every other week, still miss my M-16 from the Air Force, but an AR is in my future...any way.

CCW? What's that stand for?

:cool:

I've been carrying AIWB for coming up on two years now, with two different types of holster. I have been through several training environments AIWB as well. More thoughts in a bit but it has many good qualities, and of course the obvious potentially fatal downside if you get complacent.

gtmtnbiker98
02-26-2011, 09:17 PM
I have this "love/hate" relationship with AIWB carry. I love the concept, hate the inability to use this mode of carry in the gun games. I hate to mix it up just to play a game, but what can I say, I like playing the games. So, I remain at 3 o'clock on the belt for consistency reasons.

ToddG
02-26-2011, 09:59 PM
To date, I've extensively used three AIWB holsters:

Custom Carry Concepts (http://customcarryconcepts.com/) Looper
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/aiwblooper-300x350.jpg

Extremely low profile, the Looper began life as a traditional behind-the-hip IWB holster. The primary design goal was to avoid the bendable -- and often breakable -- clip-on style attachments that many other manufacturers use. Ernest Langdon (http://pistol-training.com/archives/3998) had CCC build a straight drop Looper for AIWB which worked great for his tall athletic frame. For people less, um, athletic (like moi) a little more tweaking was necessary to get the pistol butt pulled into the body. This was accomplished by changing some of the angles of the belt loop. However, this places a lot of stress on the loop during the draw. The result is that for people who practice drawing a lot, the belt loop of the AIWB version of the Looper can have a tendency to snap. That area has been reinforced and also redesigned so that the breakage won't completely separate the holster from the loop (and your belt), but for high volume practice it can mean replacing your holster regularly.



Custom Carry Concepts (http://customcarryconcepts.com/) Shaggy
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/shaggy.jpg

The Shaggy is the brainchild of our own SLG and was designed in part to address the durability issue of the Looper. By making the holster body wedge shaped, the same grip tucking result was achieved without putting torque on the belt loop. The result is outstanding, creating a very concealable, comfortable, and fast kydex AIWB holster.


Garrity Gunleather (http://garritysgunleather.com/In-Victus.htm) In-Victus
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/HK45-Week3-GarrityAIWB.jpg

The In-Victus may be one of the most thought out holster designs in recent history. Almost two years from concept to production, the In-Victus went through a number of prototype stages and was tested by a wide variety of shooters with different body shapes using different guns. The result is, in my opinion, the most comfortable AIWB holster available. Not as fast -- and certainly not as inexpensive -- as a kydex holster, the In-Victus nonetheless answers the bill for even the biggest guns (among the test prototypes were an HK45 and a FNP-45). Using a wedge shape similar to the Shaggy plus an additional wedge (someone coined the term 'ravioli') along the back, the In-Victus keeps the pistol in precisely the right position for maximum concealment and comfort.


The popularity of these holsters in recent months has led to long wait times from both CCC and Garrity. As of this writing, CCC has stopped taking new orders to get caught up on demand, and Garrity is quoting 1yr+ for delivery. Nonetheless, I've seen many students come through classes with less expensive or more easily available AIWB rigs only to find disappointment in their gear choice. In this instance, patience truly is a virtue.

I've also been working with John Ralston of 5 Shot Leather (http://www.5shotleather.com/) to develop another leather AIWB holster, and the good folks at Cane & Derby (http://www.caneandderby.com/concealed-carry-kydex-holsters/pardus-kydex-holster-appendix-rig.html) recently offered to send me one of their Pardus AIWB holsters for evaluation. So hopefully, there will be more holsters to add to the list soon.

David B.
02-26-2011, 10:22 PM
I tried appendix carry years ago with a sig 225 before it was in vogue, and I found it to be more physically uncomfortable than the traditional behind the hip carry.

Maybe it's just my body type or holster selection/gun, but I couldn't get used to it.

Also, psychologically, I just can't get used to covering myself with the muzzle. It goes against one of the most basic fundamental safety rules that I've indelibly impressed upon my mind.

Even though I’m anal about safety, and could probably handle appendix carry without having a nervous breakdown if I had to, I still prefer behind the hip carry just in case I needed that extra margin of safety, it would be there.

God Bless,
David

willowofwisp
02-26-2011, 10:53 PM
I wish I could appendix carry but I'm yoo fat..started working on that though.I can carry at 2 o clock now

Sent from my Evo

JodyH
02-26-2011, 10:59 PM
I have this "love/hate" relationship with AIWB carry. I love the concept, hate the inability to use this mode of carry in the gun games. I hate to mix it up just to play a game, but what can I say, I like playing the games. So, I remain at 3 o'clock on the belt for consistency reasons.
If you shoot IPSC "Limited" you can run your AIWB.

I run a Dale Fricke Archangel and absolutely love it.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/skaa.jpg

I've also used a Blackhawk CQC IWB with good results AIWB.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/p2k_bhiwb2.jpg

gtmtnbiker98
02-26-2011, 11:00 PM
If you shoot IPSC "Limited" you can run your AIWB.
I run in Production. But, as I move more towards 3-Gun/Multigun, I may depart from USPSA and IDPA all together and shoot strictly Multigun. The IMA (outlaw) Multigun rules are more "real world" when it comes to the Nanny rules (mag holder and holster placement, etc.).

TCinVA
02-26-2011, 11:25 PM
I personally have come to like AIWB (Appendix Inside-the-Waistband) carry quite a bit. I've found that it is the most invisible way to carry even a very big gun concealed. One of the big worries in concealed carry is printing because traditional strong side carry places the pistol at the narrowest profile of the body. Behind the hip is a little bit better, but you still have to watch out when you're bending over. In the appendix position printing is greatly reduced to the point of almost being a complete non-concern.

Comfort is, of course, a concern. Successful AIWB is, in my estimation, 75% about the holster you buy and 25% about exactly how you place it. As I sit typing right now I'm carrying a P30 in a CCC "Looper" holster that I stole from Todd. I have it positioned in a "sweet spot" I identified after extensive experimentation with the holster. I've spent hours sitting down at a dinner and in the car today all in absolutely perfect comfort, almost to the point that I don't even notice the weapon's presence. Part of that is, of course, getting used to carrying a pistol down the front of my pants. The majority is using the right holster and positioning it properly. When I first tried AIWB carry I thought it was the most uncomfortable thing on planet earth an that only a raving lunatic could ever find it useful. That was because I tried a holster that, to put it kindly, sucked.

It took using one of Todd's test guns for a class for me to try one of the CCC holsters and the difference was night and day. Even during lunch when we were sitting in the Culpepper Taco Hell it was vastly more comfortable than I thought possible. Right after that I ordered the CCC "Shaggy" for my M&P and it took a few weeks, but eventually I was carrying it in perfect comfort.

The really big downside to AIWB carry, as Todd alluded to, is the safety question. The more I used the holster in training with my M&P's the more uncomfortable I became about what I was doing. As a result, I switched to the P30 so I could have positive control of the hammer's movement to prevent disaster. With the ability to prevent the hammer from moving to the rear, I'm comfortable enough to use the holster for training. The pistol does not go near the holster without my thumb pressing down on the hammer.

I still have all my strong side holsters, but I never use them anymore. It's so comfortable to carry AIWB for me that I just don't bother with anything else.

MTechnik
02-26-2011, 11:32 PM
I think I wear my pants too low for AIWB. I think I'd need to wear my pants over my gut, which isn't happening due to too many digestive issues. Otherwise, the part of the gun above the waistband is going to try poking in to my spine when I sit down.

ToddG
02-26-2011, 11:40 PM
Your spine is near your appendix? :cool:

YVK
02-27-2011, 12:18 AM
I was very skeptical of AIWB, and I remain to be fairly critical of this mode. My biggest issue is "pant-compatibility". Since small position change may mean a difference between pain and comfort, it is easy to understand how difference in placement of belt loops, waist height ride and even type of fabric plays a role here. FWIW, I find my Vertx pants to work best with AIWB, but my jeans and slacks - not as well.
I found that wearing body armor and carrying AIWB doesn't jive well together - not that it is relevant to me, but it may be important to somebody.
So I was pretty much set on giving it a fair try and going back to iwb. I guess I did give it a fair chance since now, except for my G19, I carry everything AIWB.

Todd, it would be interesting to compare notes on C&D holster. Since Rich is closed to new orders, I've ordered their AIWB offering. Some of design features raise question, but one can't say anything without trying.

MTechnik
02-27-2011, 01:27 AM
Your spine is near your appendix? :cool:

If I were carrying near my appendix my gun would be in Reston, VA or some medical landfill near there.

I think I may have to take some pics, and I have.

Not very flattering belly coming up:

Here is how I think you have to wear it, from what I've read, with your belt-line higher:
http://i.imgur.com/w3nA1.jpg

So that when you bend, the gun is above your bend line:
http://i.imgur.com/z9PSq.jpg

But because I can't take that pressure across the belly (yes, I've been the hospital 3 times in 2 years because of intestinal obstructions as an example of some of my issues) I wear my pants lower like this:
http://i.imgur.com/JSaVm.jpg

Which means that when I bend, the the of the gun is pressing back in to me as such:
http://i.imgur.com/1GlCC.jpg

Meaning it is a no-go for me, sadly.

Now, this is a PPS (which is short and small) and a MTAC holster (which isn't a recommended one for AIWB) but I'm reluctant to find someone that makes an AIWB holster for my FNP (the hammer fired gun I would most likely carry that way) only to find I can't carry it the right way.

willowofwisp
02-27-2011, 08:28 AM
I have that same belly problem LOL. The only gun i had any real success with at 1:00 was a j frame.

Sent from my Evo

Rverdi
02-27-2011, 08:47 AM
My biggest issue is "pant-compatibility". Since small position change may mean a difference between pain and comfort it is easy to understand how difference in placement of belt loops, waist height ride and even type of fabric plays a role here.


In my short AIWB experience, this is a huge point. After choosing a solid holster and belt it quickly becomes obvious that some pants just don't work because of the factors mentioned above. I had several pairs of jeans that were relegated to yard work status because of this. I'm also going to bring a pair of jeans to my tailor this week and have him sew belt loops on either side of the spot the loop on my shaggy rides, I'll report back on whether it's worth the effort.
I've also found that a buckle less (velcro) belt is a a great help. I started out with a pleather Safariland under belt and eventually bought a leather buckless gun belt. I put the tail of the belt at about 10 o'clock, very comfortable.

Jay Cunningham
02-27-2011, 08:49 AM
I'll be the first to admit that it would behoove the aspiring AIWB user to not have a big gut.

No argument here.

Malchira
02-27-2011, 09:29 AM
I'll get my biases out of the way first: AIWB skeeves me out, I can't help but see it as a massive violation of "rule #2" and an excellent way to increase one's likelihood of a tragic accident, which is arguably the exact opposite reason most of us carry guns.

That said (;)), I had the following thoughts on the subject recently and figured I'd share.

- If one had to draw from AIWB in close proximity to a threat, it seems like the position would make it easier for the "opponent" to smother/stall the draw, because it's happening right in front of them. With a more traditional belt carry, your body is between the draw and the threat. Distance is obviously critical; if you're far enough away, it's irrelevant.

- If a close threat has already presented itself, an AIWB draw has effectively zero chance of being performed surreptitiously. There have been cases (one reported within the last few weeks on another forum) of successful use of the "reaching for one's wallet" ruse and coming up with a gun instead. While I personally probably wouldn't want to do that in the face of a drawn gun, I might against a knife. Attempting a straight draw from AIWB in the same situation would seem statistically more likely to result in getting cut, because it would be more obvious more quickly, with the draw effectively taking longer to accomplish.

- In a ground-fighting situation, the argument has been made that AIWB prevents the gun from being trapped between your body and the ground. While true, it creates the new problem of trapping it between your body and your opponent's. I haven't tested it, but it seems it would be easier to raise/rock yourself far enough to clear a belt holster than to get your hand between two bodies. Once you had a grip, I think it would be easier to draw from a non-AIWB, and the resulting "start position" of the gun would be more advantageous.

Just my thoughts. Happy to hear opinions on where I'm off-base.

JodyH
02-27-2011, 09:57 AM
Your concerns about drawing and retention in CQB are unfounded.
Take a good close range fighting class like Southnarc's and you'll see that AIWB is actually an advantage the majority of the time at "bad breath" distances.

JDM
02-27-2011, 10:56 AM
To say I work in a non permissive environment (healthcare) is an understatement.
In fact I believe the entire healthcare industry frowns on self defense, which is another thread entirely.

Previous to my enlightenment about AIWB, I was stuck with a 442 on my ankle and a speedloader, as it was my ass if I got made. Printing, even a little, was simply NOT an option.

After getting adjusted (I don't believe I'll ever be comfortable with this aspect) to having a Glock pointed at the FA, and doing mounds of dry practice, I tried AIWB out of work a few times. I found my range of movement, and how I could bend and reach and twist was expanded greatly. This is a godsend for people that must be descrete.

It's even more comfortable, and hides even better in scrubs.

And the mental comfort of a G19 and a reload compared to a J-frame is something we can all appreciate.

Better press outs too.

LittleLebowski
02-27-2011, 11:00 AM
How much of this have you already tested? Your worries about drawing from AWIB in close proximity to a thread seem like WHAT IFFING in the extreme to me. Do you really think that moving the pistol to 3-5 o'clock-ish is going to give you a measurable advantage with an attacker in close proximity?

To me, the comfort and concealability win every time. Not to mention, it's faster for me.


I'll get my biases out of the way first: AIWB skeeves me out, I can't help but see it as a massive violation of "rule #2" and an excellent way to increase one's likelihood of a tragic accident, which is arguably the exact opposite reason most of us carry guns.

That said (;)), I had the following thoughts on the subject recently and figured I'd share.

- If one had to draw from AIWB in close proximity to a threat, it seems like the position would make it easier for the "opponent" to smother/stall the draw, because it's happening right in front of them. With a more traditional belt carry, your body is between the draw and the threat. Distance is obviously critical; if you're far enough away, it's irrelevant.

- If a close threat has already presented itself, an AIWB draw has effectively zero chance of being performed surreptitiously. There have been cases (one reported within the last few weeks on another forum) of successful use of the "reaching for one's wallet" ruse and coming up with a gun instead. While I personally probably wouldn't want to do that in the face of a drawn gun, I might against a knife. Attempting a straight draw from AIWB in the same situation would seem statistically more likely to result in getting cut, because it would be more obvious more quickly, with the draw effectively taking longer to accomplish.

- In a ground-fighting situation, the argument has been made that AIWB prevents the gun from being trapped between your body and the ground. While true, it creates the new problem of trapping it between your body and your opponent's. I haven't tested it, but it seems it would be easier to raise/rock yourself far enough to clear a belt holster than to get your hand between two bodies. Once you had a grip, I think it would be easier to draw from a non-AIWB, and the resulting "start position" of the gun would be more advantageous.

Just my thoughts. Happy to hear opinions on where I'm off-base.

ToddG
02-27-2011, 11:06 AM
- If one had to draw from AIWB in close proximity to a threat, it seems like the position would make it easier for the "opponent" to smother/stall the draw, because it's happening right in front of them. With a more traditional belt carry, your body is between the draw and the threat.

Drawing from the appendix position is faster, uses smaller movements, and requires less overall movement. These things all add to its suitability in tight quarters.


- If a close threat has already presented itself, an AIWB draw has effectively zero chance of being performed surreptitiously.

That's absolutely false. When combined with the improved speed of an AIWB draw, the ability to have your hands practically on top of the gun in a normal relaxed position (as opposed to reaching/sweeping behind your hip) makes for a very stealthy draw... and one that doesn't rely on the BG demanding your wallet before you can begin.


- In a ground-fighting situation, the argument has been made that AIWB prevents the gun from being trapped between your body and the ground. While true, it creates the new problem of trapping it between your body and your opponent's. I haven't tested it, but it seems it would be easier to raise/rock yourself far enough to clear a belt holster than to get your hand between two bodies. Once you had a grip, I think it would be easier to draw from a non-AIWB, and the resulting "start position" of the gun would be more advantageous.

I think this is too situational to call an advantage or disadvantage for any given system. Hopefully Southnarc can chime in on this issue when he gets a chance...

SouthNarc
02-27-2011, 11:17 AM
Personally I haven't witnessed any significant advantage or disadvantage to A-IWB at ECQ ranges. It's just another way to carry a gun inside your pants. I think the advantages become more noticeable when the range opens up to "conventional" gunfight distances. I also think A-IWB has an advantage in confined spaces such as the driver's compartment of a small car.

The issues of where a gun is carried is not really pertinent in an entangled affair. Watch these evolutions and tell me if you think that ANY particular place on the body holds a distinct advantage over any other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eprLkelgB3M

http://www.youtube.com/user/soonerbjj#p/u/7/RTBk3rTjuNU

http://www.youtube.com/user/soonerbjj#p/u/3/zUrzzqAuf-o

The only thing I will say about holsters and placement for entangled shooting problems is that it seems pretty consistent that a leather IWB (regardless of where it's carried on the body) seems to offer better retention advantages. The gun tends to "bind" a bit more than kydex when it's torqued in the holster. This mirrors my own experiences when jumping fences and rolling around with crack dealers.

Just my opinion though. Nothing absolute.

David Pennington
02-27-2011, 11:37 AM
There may also be an acceptable mid-ground for those that need or want to carry AIWB and those who are rightfully freaked out a bit every time they reholster AIWB. I'm a firm believer, provided closed front shirts (vs jackets or having to be tucked in) are acceptable, that AIWB is probably the best way to carry a concealed pistol. I'm equally convinced that it's the worst place to reholster a pistol.

I'm devoted to the Glock for almost all of my pistol needs and, while I did it for a year or so, I'm simply not willing to get out on the range and practice drawing/reholstering AIWB extensively with the Glock. Were I carrying a P228 or P30 with a hammer, I'd be much more comfortable practicing from AIWB.

So my dilemma is that I think AIWB if a great place to carry and a horrible place to reholster. I'll make the assumption that most of us are carrying pistols to save our lives or the lives of others. If the basic mode of carry puts you at undue risk of killing yourself while reholstering, you need to step back and remember that you are carrying a pistol to potentially save your life---not to potentially take it. I abandoned AIWB for this very reason but this also prevented me from carrying a full sized pistol a lot of time since it might cause undue work issues.

As an aside, a "non-permissive" environment is not an office or work environment were you'll get fired if caught carrying; "non-permissive" environments are Mexico City, Pakistan, undercover work, and, to a lesser extent, DC/NJ/etc. Getting fired sucks but getting thrown in a Paki prison is potentially life ending as is, to a much lesser extent, getting thrown in a US prison. In these situations where simply getting caught with a gun might get you arrested or even killed, the advantages of AIWB seem to outweigh the risks. Fortunately, most of us aren't faced with truly "non-permissive" environments.

The solution I've found to mitigate most all of the risk of AIWB is simply to do my repetitive training from a standard hip carried IWB holster while carry AIWB when necessary. The location between 1 o'clock carry and 4 o'clock carry is so close that it doesn't seem to pose any issues of "where's my gun" today. It's really no different than wearing an open front jacket one day and an untucked shirt the next or carry concealed and then switching to a tactical holster. This solution lets you enjoy the many benefits of AIWB carry while minimizing the potentially deadly risks. Any draw/reholster work can be done with an empty weapon or a blue gun.

SLG
02-27-2011, 11:41 AM
Personally I haven't witnessed any significant advantage or disadvantage to A-IWB at ECQ ranges... I also think A-IWB has an advantage in confined spaces such as the driver's compartment of a small car."


Can you elaborate on this a tiny bit? I'm a little confused. Also, why do you think there is an advantage at more "normal" shooting distances? (paraphrased)


"The only thing I will say about holsters and placement for entangled shooting problems is that it seems pretty consistent that a leather IWB (regardless of where it's carried on the body) seems to offer better retention advantages. The gun tends to "bind" a bit more than kydex when it's torqued in the holster."

+1!

It's been a real struggle to get a good leather AIWB to market, but it seems that is changing. I will say that I had a miserable experience with a very well known, very expensive standard IWB (leather) a few years ago, and will not use a holster from them again. I also have serious reservations about holsters with metal lined mouths (for just the opposite reason often given). Mine would loosen with use and not retain the gun.

Finally, my personal Shaggy seems to have a very leather like level of tension on the gun, but I still worry about kydex over leather. Nothing's perfect...

SLG
02-27-2011, 11:46 AM
"The solution I've found to mitigate most all of the risk of AIWB is simply to do my repetitive training from a standard hip carried IWB holster while carry AIWB when necessary. The location between 1 o'clock carry and 4 o'clock carry is so close that it doesn't seem to pose any issues of "where's my gun" today. It's really no different than wearing an open front jacket one day and an untucked shirt the next or carry concealed and then switching to a tactical holster. This solution lets you enjoy the many benefits of AIWB carry while minimizing the potentially deadly risks. Any draw/reholster work can be done with an empty weapon or a blue gun.

Dave,

I would disagree a little, in that if AIWB is too unsafe to practice reholstering on the range, then reholstering after an adrenaline dump would seem to be a no go. Winning a confrontation (shots fired or not), and then castrating yourself would be poor form, no?

SouthNarc
02-27-2011, 12:07 PM
I may not have phrased that very well so I'll try and elaborate some more.

In the entangled shooting problems the key issue is the shooter's position himself not necessarily where the gun is produced from. The collision of torsos and limbs is so dynamic amd volitional that within a split second what was a damn good place for the gun to be for you is now the worst place for you to have to defend it.

Outside of entanglement problems, I think generally the gun in vasectomy carry is usually closer to the hand and centerline of the body thus quicker to produce to target relative to a linear drawstroke.

In the confined space problem especially like the bucket seats of some vehicles there's usually less movement required to access the pistol, such as leaning forward or shifting your hips as much.

Did that help some or did I just repeat myself?

SLG
02-27-2011, 12:11 PM
That's very clear, thanks. It also mirrors my own experience.

SouthNarc
02-27-2011, 12:12 PM
Cool!

firecop019
02-27-2011, 12:57 PM
It's a good method, it is definitely faster than from behind the hip. I've had such good luck with it that I've pulled my duty holster around in front of my hip to between 2-2:30. I carry an MP40 with a TLR1 light in a 6285 holster and I found that the gun was binding up in the holster. This small movement of the holster solved the problem.

David Pennington
02-27-2011, 01:46 PM
SLG,
I agree 100% but I am simply going by the raw number of times that I'd reholster into an AIWB holster. You may draw and reholster 100 times during a practice session whereas you would conceivably only reholster once after a confrontation. Simply knowing myself and my absent mindedness, I am much more likely to make a mistake on repetition 87 on the range than on the first reholster after a fight. It’s like zoning out during daily driving but not while you are ultra focused during TVOC. The adrenaline dump is a very real concern but almost every time that I've drawn my pistol for real, in my prior occupation, I was very slow to reholster it (compared to extended range sessions).

I'm simply going by the law of probability and I currently only carry AIWB when that extra level of concealment is needed. I think almost all of the draw/reholster work can be accomplished via dry fire.

Do you see this as being different from going from daily concealment to an exposed drop holster for tactical work?

SLG
02-27-2011, 02:46 PM
Dave,

On the one hand, it would be ideal to never have to carry your gun in a different position. On the other hand, when you're wearing a tactical holster, it is almost always a back up gun. If my M-4 goes down, several other teammates will more than likely be putting rounds on my threat before I can transition to the pistol. Though I got away from "drop" holsters a long time ago, I used to carry concealed in a similar location to minimize issues. I now conceal AIWB whenever I'm in soft clothes, and wear a tac rig when kitted up. I haven't found the different location to be an issue, but if I screw up my tac rig, I am unlikely to shoot myself. Most of my practice involves the AIWB, so I feel that the reholstering threat is minimized there. Of course, I also use the "hard break", and my pistol has a wonderful thumb safety on it, in addition to being hammer fired:-)

Is that clear? Too much typing for me...:-)

Give me a call when you get a chance.

Malchira
02-27-2011, 05:07 PM
How much of this have you already tested?

I've tested none of it, which is why I said "my thoughts" rather than "my experience". AIWB fails the cost-benefit analysis for me, so it's academic. That's why I was curious what those of you who do it think about what I brought up.


That's absolutely false. When combined with the improved speed of an AIWB draw, the ability to have your hands practically on top of the gun in a normal relaxed position (as opposed to reaching/sweeping behind your hip) makes for a very stealthy draw... and one that doesn't rely on the BG demanding your wallet before you can begin.

Todd, just to be clear, I was referring to a situation in which you're face-to-face with someone, and AIWB would (unless I'm missing something) require you to reveal the gun in order to access it. I understand there are cases where it can be stealthy, I just don't see how that's one of them.


The issues of where a gun is carried is not really pertinent in an entangled affair. Watch these evolutions and tell me if you think that ANY particular place on the body holds a distinct advantage over any other.

Thanks, SouthNarc, those were great videos. In those situations, I'd assume the most important gun in the equation isn't the one in your holster, it's controlling the other guy's. ;)

ToddG
02-27-2011, 05:11 PM
Todd, just to be clear, I was referring to a situation in which you're face-to-face with someone, and AIWB would (unless I'm missing something) require you to reveal the gun in order to access it. I understand there are cases where it can be stealthy, I just don't see how that's one of them.

From where I normally put my hands when I'm just standing around, or where I put them when someone is closer to me than I'd like, there is less movement to my AIWB than a gun that is on the rear half of my belt. Furthermore, moving my hands to my front pocket or belly is much less of a tell-tale move than reaching behind to what we think of as the typical holster position.

If I hook my thumbs in my front pockets, I've got a very fast and natural drawstroke to the AIWB. My hand is on the gun immediately.

JDM
02-27-2011, 05:16 PM
If I hook my thumbs in my front pockets, I've got a very fast and natural drawstroke to the AIWB. My hand is on the gun immediately.
This.

SouthNarc
02-27-2011, 05:54 PM
You're very welcome Malchira and to answer your question, mmmm......that's kinda' the way to look at it. The main thing to control in that kind of fight is the position.

I think we need to get Todd a pair of yellow aviator shooting glasses and start sporting a Jew-fro so he can reenact this famous A-IWB scene.

http://www.pact.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=36&Itemid=53

TCz
02-27-2011, 07:33 PM
Hi y'all, I'm a newcomer here, but I've been following p-t.com for quite a while. Love the new forum!

Anyway, back to the topic:
When carrying AIWB while in a car, the lap seat belt is situated directly over the pistol. This would be unpleasant, to say the least, in the event of a wreck. What do y'all do to fix this,if anything?

LittleLebowski
02-27-2011, 07:47 PM
I think we need to get Todd a pair of yellow aviator shooting glasses and start sporting a Jew-fro so he can reenact this famous A-IWB scene.

http://www.pact.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=36&Itemid=53

I'm in.

ToddG
02-27-2011, 08:16 PM
This would be unpleasant, to say the least, in the event of a wreck. What do y'all do to fix this,if anything?

Don't wreck. :cool:

Seriously, I think it's an interesting question. I don't know enough about anatomy to say whether it's really a medical/health concern. The one guy whose opinions on GSW I consider unparalleled, who also happens to be an MD, carries AIWB though...


I think we need to get Todd a pair of yellow aviator shooting glasses and start sporting a Jew-fro so he can reenact this famous A-IWB scene.

I'm in.

You both just get turned on by guys wearing rubber gloves.

David Pennington
02-27-2011, 08:21 PM
Slip the seatbelt behind the pistol when you don't have to conceal it from your passenger and drop your cover garment back over the pistols butt. This also makes it way easier to draw while seated but you do have to remember to untuck the seatbelt before exiting the car.

SouthNarc
02-27-2011, 08:21 PM
Something wrong with that?

TCz
02-27-2011, 09:42 PM
Don't wreck.
:D That's Plan A, of course!


Slip the seatbelt behind the pistol when you don't have to conceal it from your passenger and drop your cover garment back over the pistols butt. This also makes it way easier to draw while seated but you do have to remember to untuck the seatbelt before exiting the car.

Thanks David. That is what I actually do, and usually I don't have anyone in my car who doesn't know I carry. Just looking to see if there were other methods out there.

JSGlock34
02-27-2011, 09:57 PM
I think we need to get Todd a pair of yellow aviator shooting glasses and start sporting a Jew-fro so he can reenact this famous A-IWB scene.

http://www.pact.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=36&Itemid=53

Classic scene. I remember as a kid rewinding that scene over and over to try to figure out how fast Jim Zubiena got those shots off.

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/9/93/MV-1911-1.jpg/600px-MV-1911-1.jpg

45R
02-27-2011, 11:53 PM
Can any recommend a good AIWB rig for a 642 J Frame?

Thanks!

willowofwisp
02-28-2011, 08:03 AM
Can any recommend a good AIWB rig for a 642 J Frame?

Thanks!

From what I have heard the Raven ACR works pretty well. I use one with my 26.

JV_
02-28-2011, 08:19 AM
From what I have heard the Raven ACR works pretty well. I use one with my 26.Have they fixed the cracking issues with the ACR?

Ga Shooter
02-28-2011, 11:24 AM
Todd thanks for making what will most likely be (based from the success of your blog) the best pistol forum on the internet.

That said, I have been struggling with a good way to conceal carry for a long time. I have never tried AIWB but after following the same thread on another site and the better info on this one I want to give it a try. My problem is with the holster availability. As you said in the begining patience is a virtue when it comes to waiting for a good holster. I have no problem waiting or paying the price for a Shaggy or something else but after waiting for six months and then it doesn't work good you have to start all over and you are out the money. Is there any way of getting your hands on one to try out before buying? I already have a box full of other holsters that don't work for me just trying to cut down on the waste.

thanks

SLG
02-28-2011, 11:27 AM
I have no problem waiting or paying the price for a Shaggy or something else but after waiting for six months and then it doesn't work good you have to start all over and you are out the money. Is there any way of getting your hands on one to try out before buying? I already have a box full of other holsters that don't work for me just trying to cut down on the waste.

thanks

What gun do you need it for?

Ga Shooter
02-28-2011, 11:45 AM
What gun do you need it for?

G26

turbolag23
02-28-2011, 12:20 PM
From what I have heard the Raven ACR works pretty well. I use one with my 26.

i had my first AIWB experience with this holster last friday. I wasnt too fond of it at first, with the gun digging into my gut or the holster into my groin. After getting the holster (and my pants) adjusted properly it started to grow on me. the draw is a lot quicker and feels more natural. now im a lefty so it isnt exactly my appendix but thats just details.

SLG
02-28-2011, 01:21 PM
G26


Sorry, can't help there. I've found that guns as short as the G26 don't always work well in AIWB. They need to be so deep that they won't roll out the top, but then they are too deep for a good draw. Depending on your body type, that may or may not be an issue.

Ga Shooter
02-28-2011, 01:47 PM
Sorry, can't help there. I've found that guns as short as the G26 don't always work well in AIWB. They need to be so deep that they won't roll out the top, but then they are too deep for a good draw. Depending on your body type, that may or may not be an issue.

I understand I also have G17's I would be willing to try to carry. I think the G19 is probably the best compromise but I went with a 26 for EDC because I print horribly with anything else when I carry on or behind the hip. My 17s usually stay on night stand and I use for competitions.

ToddG
02-28-2011, 02:06 PM
Sorry, can't help there. I've found that guns as short as the G26 don't always work well in AIWB. They need to be so deep that they won't roll out the top, but then they are too deep for a good draw. Depending on your body type, that may or may not be an issue.

Agree 100%. A good AIWB holster designed for a G26/S&W642 is going to have a different design and functionality than one designed for a G17/HK45.

Not to speak for SLG, but the holsters he and I have been working on (along with others) for the past couple of years have been focused on allowing folks to ditch the mouse gun and move up to a full (or "fuller") sized pistol without diminishing concealability or comfort.

SLG
02-28-2011, 02:10 PM
Todd can speak for me pretty much anytime. He's certainly correct about ditching the smaller stuff. I've seen people shoot tighter groups with smaller guns, but never shoot "better" with a G26 compared to say a G19 or 17.

dookie1481
02-28-2011, 02:38 PM
Todd thanks for making what will most likely be (based from the success of your blog) the best pistol forum on the internet.

That said, I have been struggling with a good way to conceal carry for a long time. I have never tried AIWB but after following the same thread on another site and the better info on this one I want to give it a try. My problem is with the holster availability. As you said in the begining patience is a virtue when it comes to waiting for a good holster. I have no problem waiting or paying the price for a Shaggy or something else but after waiting for six months and then it doesn't work good you have to start all over and you are out the money. Is there any way of getting your hands on one to try out before buying? I already have a box full of other holsters that don't work for me just trying to cut down on the waste.

thanks

Hey dude, one of the mods at M4C has one available: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=74499

Ga Shooter
02-28-2011, 03:27 PM
I may go ahead and try to get one for my 17 then. The main reason I went with the 26 was to tr and conceal better. I like the larger 17 and 19 better as they fit my hands better. If this works out for me someone will get a good deal on a 26!

BCL
03-02-2011, 02:42 PM
I have been playing around with the idea of switching to AIWB for a year and a half or so now. Haven't made the switch yet since I don't really feel comfortable with my Glocks near my FA.

I plan to get a P30 or two within the next couple of months, which is when I'll probably decide to make the switch.

Hopefully that new AIWB Holster that SLG mentioned won't take too long to come to market.

Nikuraba29
03-04-2011, 03:50 PM
i am already a fan of aiwb. Unfortunately, i'm too short and soft in the middle to fully utilize this method of carry.

+1

s/f

29

dookie1481
03-04-2011, 06:28 PM
+1

s/f

29

Hmmm...I'm 5'5", 165 with a little gut and it works fine for me. In fact, I much prefer AIWB to strong-side IWB carry.

TCinVA
03-04-2011, 08:12 PM
I am, of course, the chiseled personification of masculine beauty**...but I've seen guys with a bit of a gut pull off AIWB just fine.

**Note: May contain exaggerations.

gtmtnbiker98
03-04-2011, 08:57 PM
the chiseled personification of masculine beauty**You too?

NickA
03-04-2011, 09:43 PM
On gun selection- the P30 seems to be the runaway favorite, and Sig and HK are the most prominent hammer fired guns I can think of. Any others that people are using AIWB?
My usual gun is the G19 carried strongside, but I also have a S&W 3913 that I've done a little AIWB with. Sizewise it's perfect but the funky manual of arms and limited capacity have kept me from committing to it.

LittleLebowski
03-04-2011, 09:57 PM
I carry a G19 AWIB everyday.

JV_
03-04-2011, 10:00 PM
I previously AIWB'd a M&P9 and G19. Now that I've moved to the P30, and have come to appreciate the hammer, I question whether I'll go back to a (cocked) striker fired gun for AIWB.

TCz
03-04-2011, 11:36 PM
I carry a CZ vz. 82 AIWB. Hammer-fired with an excellent manual safety. Also very inexpensive (I'm in college).

NickA
03-05-2011, 12:36 AM
I carry a G19 AWIB everyday.

Thanks, think I just wanted to hear that SOMEbody was carrying a Glock. Truthfully not having a hammer doesn't freak me out too bad, my desire not to die should insure taking great care with re-holstering. From the experimenting I've done there's a lot I like about AIWB, but so far dry fire is all I've done. The main reason I haven't made a serious effort is probably IDPA, but it's not like I'm super serious about it and I wouldn't have a problem using SS carry just for competition, or maybe I could try some USPSA.
Really comes down to a training and commitment issue for me; guess i should decide soon since I'll be in AFHF in about a month and won't likely get a better chance for some AIWB instruction.

Jay Cunningham
03-05-2011, 01:06 AM
I also carry a Glock 19 quite often AIWB.

JodyH
03-05-2011, 08:58 AM
H&K P2000 for me, although I have carried Glocks AIWB I prefer riding the hammer when I reholster. Gives me an additional layer or warm fuzzies.

Nikuraba29
03-05-2011, 04:28 PM
Todd/SLG,

Since the In-victus and Shaggy seem to be unobtainable. What are the next best choices for said AIWB, specifically the HK P30.

S/F

29

JDB
03-05-2011, 07:16 PM
Anybody tried AIWB with an M&P with thumb safety? I've got a In-victus on order cut for a M&P9 with thumb safety. I know the TS on M&Ps don't work for everybody (as far as shooting goes), just wondering if that little extra protrusion makes much difference in comfort in the holster.
Right now I use a M&P9 AIWB (no TS) with a CCC Looper. I rely on a large dose of paranoia, together with a heavy Mass trigger spring to keep from killing myself. A thumb safety would definitely be a welcome addition for safetie's sake.

MechEng
03-05-2011, 09:26 PM
Anybody tried AIWB with an M&P with thumb safety? I've got a In-victus on order cut for a M&P9 with thumb safety. I know the TS on M&Ps don't work for everybody (as far as shooting goes), just wondering if that little extra protrusion makes much difference in comfort in the holster.
Right now I use a M&P9 AIWB (no TS) with a CCC Looper. I rely on a large dose of paranoia, together with a heavy Mass trigger spring to keep from killing myself. A thumb safety would definitely be a welcome addition for safetie's sake.

Prior to carrying a P30 in a CCC Shaggy, I carried a M&P9 with thumb safety. I specifically bought it with the thumb safety because I planed to carry it AIWB and I wanted that extra measure of safety while re-holstering. The holster I used was a Blade Tech IWB that I modified to ride higher with a straight drop. Basically I removed the two straps and replaced them with one solid Kydex loop, sort of like what is on the Shaggy, and cut away some of the Kydex on the holster to make it more comfortable. I didn't have any problems with the safety protruding or causing any discomfort because the sweat guard sort of protects it despite not covering it. I'm not sure how the sweat guard on the In-victus is made with respect to the M&P w/Safety. You might want to call Garrity and ask how they designed their M&P In-victus holsters.

Prdator
03-05-2011, 09:50 PM
I carry a Glock 35/34 AIWB in a custom holster I made out of Kydex. I holster with care.

One thing I did to ease my mind on carrying this way was to CLEAR my G35 ( no ammo in the room kinda clear)!!!!!!! Then I would attempt to holster the CLEARED G35 with my finger on the trigger. I could NOT make the the striker fall!!! the holster would really hurt my finger wile trying to do this!! It was very "self correcting". Next I tried to wad my shirt up in the trigger guard and see if I could get the striker to drop, no matter how I tried I could not get it to drop.

Now in NO way am I saying that you can't get a Glock to go off holstering ( in any position) but using care in holstering you can carry a GLock/M&P ect AIWB with confidence. If I did not have great confidence in this I would not let my G35 Point at MY right nut all the time!!

With that said remember this, IF YOU FUCK UP YOU DIE!!!!!!!

SLG
03-05-2011, 11:17 PM
Todd/SLG,

Since the In-victus and Shaggy seem to be unobtainable. What are the next best choices for said AIWB, specifically the HK P30.

S/F

29

Just saw this, and Todd is out teaching. If you can wait a couple of months, I think there will be another option. I realize that is a long time when you want to try something out, let alone carry your gun. Unfortunately, I have not found any instant solutions to this dilemma, hence all the effort to bring several good options to the market. I will say that a bladetech iwb, with one of the straps removed MAY work for you short term. Then again, it may not.

mnealtx
03-05-2011, 11:34 PM
What about something like the Tucker Cover-up IWB? (link (http://rlcompanyusa.stores.yahoo.net/coverupiwb.html)) The cant is adjustable and it doesn't appear to have too much extra material at the muzzle end of the holster.

NickA
03-06-2011, 01:01 AM
I will say that a bladetech iwb, with one of the straps removed MAY work for you short term. Then again, it may not.
Glad to hear this, I've got a Bladetech Nano out on loan that I'm going to repo this week. FWIW to anyone the Nano is adjustable to verical cant.

JV_
03-06-2011, 07:49 AM
I've had really good luck with the regular BT IWB holster, adjusted for a straight drop, for AIWB. For the Glock 17, because of the large grip, I made a small wedge to force the grip in to my body. It's almost as good as a shaggy.

JodyH
03-06-2011, 08:38 AM
I've used a Dale Fricke Archangel AIWB with my P2000 for almost a year now with complete satisfaction. Dale usually ships within a week.
I've also used a HighNoon Public Secret and found it a good option for an "off the shelf" immediate ship holster.
In my experience Blade-Tech and Comp-Tac are very poor choices for appendix carry.

BWT
03-06-2011, 01:48 PM
I bought my Dad an AIWB from Comp-tac, their 2 o'clock model and a spare magazine carrier for Christmas, he bought an M&P9.

http://www.comp-tac.com/product_info.php?products_id=89

I don't have the belly problem, but it did snatch a few hairs on the stomach going in the holster. I guess I could just shave a patch off every once in awhile.

;)

I'm sure the ladies would like that. "So it doesn't snag on my pistol re-holstering" "Oh okay." "That's my cross to bear."

As far as the pistol, I think it might benefit from a slight cant to the right or left depending on how you carry. So it doesn't go straight into your stomach, when seated, especially on a larger couch or something where it's a more relaxed seat, it's hard to sit up.

I will say this, I like AIWB, and will be switching to it when I change platforms. (I knew, beyond the shadow of a doubt I wanted an M&P9 with a Thumb safety... Now I'll admit, I've been eying an HK P30S with an LEM trigger and Heinie sights...)

I can think of a few situations, recently, where I would've liked to been able to get to my gun while in a car, or just make it ready accessible over the standard small of the back, or been out walking in the rain/etc. and would like to not have to push back my coat, and lift my shirt and then execute a draw stroke to get it when walking.

I find that method of carry honestly seems ideal, and very quick.

Also, when bending over or lifting something from the ground, it'd be nice to not have to worry about my pistol poking out, I can deal with some pain to the abdomen if it gouges a little, but, I don't want my shirt tail coming over the handle of the pistol and protruding out.

Quicker access seated, in a car (I could not get to my gun in less than 5-7 seconds in a stressful situation seated in a car, I could not) at all times regardless of garment (coats in the winter, sweaters, or just T-Shirts) and pretty much developing the same muscle memory to draw with all of those, and easier to manage it's printing, point to me to a more efficient method of carry.

Nikuraba29
03-06-2011, 08:05 PM
So, I found a couple of Youtube reviews on the archangel and it seems like a good short term solution, however where is the best place to get one AND!!! are they available for the P30?

S/F

29

JodyH
03-06-2011, 09:22 PM
So, I found a couple of Youtube reviews on the archangel and it seems like a good short term solution, however where is the best place to get one AND!!! are they available for the P30?

S/F

29
http://www.dalefrickeholsters.com/

KentF
03-07-2011, 10:08 AM
The link seems to be broken, can anyone verify?

I had an old Uncle Mikes neoprene IWB that I tried in a AIWB this weekend, with my unloaded P30. It worked surprisingly well and was quite comfortable. This little experiment has sold me on the method of carry. Although I wouldn't use this holster for "serious" carry.

I have not had good experiences with kydex IWB holsters, comfort wise.

Frank B
03-07-2011, 10:36 AM
If you look for "One Source Tactical" at Google, you can get it there.
The holster didnīt work well for me, so Iīm still happy with the Safariland #27 for AIWB.

NickA
03-07-2011, 10:45 AM
Link works for me but didn't see the Archangel listed on his site. Looks like OST is the best bet.

dickmadison
03-07-2011, 10:59 AM
I carry a G19 AWIB everyday.

This is the same for me any day that I can wear a shirt not tucked in. I have no problems with it whatsoever and have taken courses with it. I occasionally wear a G17 but the butt is harder to conceal. If my shirt is tighter, I use a G26 with NO printing whatsoever. Please note, I use a the same holster for all three and its the length of a G17 so that the gun stays stable and doesn't tip over the waistband.

Occam's Razor
03-07-2011, 11:04 AM
From personal experience I've carried AIWB since the 80's working UC in Miami. Bad guys don't use holsters and this is where they shove their guns, so we did too. These days I like the Looper Holster, Kydex just gives me more of a warm fuzzy when reholstering. But, having said that, I don't teach AIWB to any but the most advanced students for all the reasons laid out here, especially by ToddG at the very start of this thread. I believe it's an old idea, with a lot of merit, but one that needs to be approached with extensive training. I'm not sure what my insurance liability would be for a student's ballistic vasectomy.

KentF
03-07-2011, 11:16 AM
If you look for "One Source Tactical" at Google, you can get it there.
The holster didnīt work well for me, so Iīm still happy with the Safariland #27 for AIWB.

I checked OST, but they don't have one listed for a Heckler & Koch P30. :(

JohnN
03-07-2011, 12:12 PM
I checked OST, but they don't have one listed for a Heckler & Koch P30. :(

I would contact Dale directly, he is very accommodating.

JM Campbell
03-07-2011, 12:20 PM
Hombre...
I have a shaggy you can borrow to try out if you would like. I would need it back though, just so you can have a trial run to see if you like it before you spend your money.

I'm in SA Texas so if your close you can pick it up or I can ship it to you.

KentF
03-07-2011, 03:33 PM
PM Sent

ubervic
03-07-2011, 06:05 PM
...Not to speak for SLG, but the holsters he and I have been working on (along with others) for the past couple of years have been focused on allowing folks to ditch the mouse gun and move up to a full (or "fuller") sized pistol without diminishing concealability or comfort.

Interesting notion here.

I carry a subcompact primarily because it conceals best on my fairly short/stocky frame with my Crossbreed Supertuck at about 4:30. (I'm about 5'7", 185 lbs.). I'm very interested in AIWB, as my drawstroke from the 4:30 position is smooth but it's super SLOOOOOOWW when comparing with drawing from appendix. The sweeping/reaching has to add at least half a second to the presentation, and clearing a garment fully when the pistol is behind your hip is never a 100% thing. The movements from appendix location are far more natural and immediate.

Now, it's just dawned on me that moving to AIWB will not only enable me to carry more naturally, comfortably and with deeper concealment----but it will allow me to move to a fuller sized pistol, which will likely facilitate better/easier handling and overall shooting. Good stuff.

Now, if only there were a high-quality holster that didn't require a year's wait.

Anyone have any experience with Garrett Industries' Silent Thunder?

JodyH
03-07-2011, 06:13 PM
Link works for me but didn't see the Archangel listed on his site. Looks like OST is the best bet.

I checked OST, but they don't have one listed for a Heckler & Koch P30. :(
EMAIL Dale Fricke at his web site.

Chipster
03-07-2011, 06:15 PM
Has anyone tried a Milt Spark SS2 as a AIWB? I understand that is not a vertical cant and all but I would think double straps would be a plus in this type of holster versus a negative by providing a wider area across the belt. I would think this would apply as well to the Blade-Tech IWB holster. If this question has been asked earlier, I apologize and just give me the eye rolling icon.

Chip

Nikuraba29
03-07-2011, 07:16 PM
EMAIL Dale Fricke at his web site.

I already did waiting on a reply.

S/F

29

ToddG
03-07-2011, 07:26 PM
Has anyone tried a Milt Spark SS2 as a AIWB? I understand that is not a vertical cant and all but I would think double straps would be a plus in this type of holster versus a negative by providing a wider area across the belt. I would think this would apply as well to the Blade-Tech IWB holster. If this question has been asked earlier, I apologize and just give me the eye rolling icon.

The forward cant will make the holster almost impossible to endure in terms of comfort.

As mentioned earlier, the original Summer Special was actually designed as a straight drop AIWB holster, and only later on did it migrate behind the hip and adopt the FBI cant.

Chipster
03-08-2011, 12:23 AM
I swapped out the factory belt loops with some off a Blade-Tech and made the one that sits higher 1 3/4 instead of 1 1/2. I will give it a try tomorrow and see what happens. I am going to try a few home modification to see if I can make it more AIWB like. Will give me something to do until John opens up orders on his "sneak peek"

SteveK
03-08-2011, 08:14 AM
I suggest you check out Raven Concealment. I see these guys about once a month at our Sunday study group and they have been using a aiwb holster that they recently developed. Their turnaround time is about 3-4 months but they are retooling and hope to reduce that drastically. The holster is called the ACR (appendix carry rig) and like all there stuff, is well made and modular. All their products carry a lifetime warranty.

Ga Shooter
03-08-2011, 10:06 AM
I have a Shaggy questions. As I prepare to buy one when ordering opens back up how many of you have the leather backing and why or why not? Which attachment method do you prefer (standard loop, kydex loop, or leather snap straps) and why? I am looking into carrying a Glock 19. How much size difference is there between a Shaggy for a 17 and 19 if you have both? Someone here stated that they carry a holster for a 17 and can put a G17, G19 or a G26 in it. Thanks for the help.

JV_
03-08-2011, 10:14 AM
Get the leather backing, it helps with a hot muzzle getting too close to sensitive skin.

I like the solid loop, it seems the most stable.

ToddG
03-08-2011, 10:35 AM
I'm 100% with JV. I think the leather backing makes it a bit more comfortable and also makes a big difference if you shoot high volume and the gun gets warm. The leather adds a slight thickness to the holster but if that makes the difference between concealed and unconcealed, you're doing something wrong.

I prefer the solid kydex loop. The edge may print slightly under just the wrong circumstance but it is very rigid, secure, and effective.

The G17 holster will provide slightly better concealment (the pistol grip will leverage into your body a bit more, especially when you bend down, etc.) but obviously runs the risk of being slightly less comfortable depending on exactly how you position it.

Chipster
03-08-2011, 09:08 PM
Well, I tried the Sparks SS2 today for about 14 hours straight with the blade tech straps on and made a few notes.

1. It tends to gravitate towards 12 o'clock as the day waned on (can't figure that out because of the giant snake behind the zipper :0)

2. My belly tended to impair my draw as my shooting thumb had to kind of "dig in" to the excess to get a proper grip (maybe I am just to heavy for the AIWB 6'0"/230)

3. The Sparks holster is TIGHT compared to any kydex holster I have previously used with the exception of the Raven Concealment rigs

4. 13+ years in LE and another 3 before that carrying is hard to overcome since I have always carried at 2:30/3:00.

5. I work drugs and I have to say that at several public places and even at the PD I had people who know me, ask where my gun was (jeans & t-shirt with a fleece zip up)

JFK
03-09-2011, 08:46 AM
AIWB is great for us left handers. Especially in the car. It is very hard to get to a strong side holster in a car seat if you are left handed. However AIWB allows access and is comfortable. I carry one with a 5" 1911 in a Shaggy and am convinced after doing it for about 8 months.

ToddG
03-09-2011, 08:55 AM
When carrying AIWB while in a car, the lap seat belt is situated directly over the pistol. This would be unpleasant, to say the least, in the event of a wreck. What do y'all do to fix this,if anything?

I meant to come back to this with a serious answer and forgot.

In the past few days, I've driven two Infiniti sedans and a Chevy sedan as well as riding shotgun in a Nissan SUV and an Acura. In all five vehicles, when properly situated, the the lap belt is low on my body and well below the grip of my pistol.

When I get in the vehicle, I belt in and then untuck my cover garment from beneath the lap belt. The chest restraint lies normally and whether it contacts the gun or not, pulling up on my cover garment gets it out of the way for a draw.

JFK
03-09-2011, 09:00 AM
properly situated, the the lap belt is low on my body and well below the grip of my pistol.

When I get in the vehicle, I belt in and then untuck my cover garment from beneath the lap belt. The chest restraint lies normally and whether it contacts the gun or not, pulling up on my cover garment gets it out of the way for a draw.

Same Same here.

TCz
03-09-2011, 12:10 PM
Maybe I'm wearing my gun or seat belt wrong then, but for me the lap belt comes across the gun's slide, below the grip. The belt exerts force on the slide, into my abdomen.

Here is a highly technical and brilliantly executed drawing to illustrate.

By texascz (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/texascz) at 2011-03-09

edit: I think you can see it now...

Ga Shooter
03-09-2011, 12:11 PM
Thanks JV and Todd for the help. Now I just have to make my mind up between one for the G17 or G19. Or just buy both and sell whichever one I don't use. :D

LOKNLOD
03-09-2011, 02:14 PM
Is there any model or style of belt that you all have found particularly well- (or poorly-) suited to AIWB carry?

The buckle on the belt I've been wearing for the past few years broke recently. Thankfully it was at a moment I didn't have my gun on; shame on me for not having it but a lucky break on the timing since I was walking up to the counter at the pediatrician's office to pay.

I've always worn a heavy stiff leather belt vs. the nylon models, though I do have an Ares Ranger belt. It's extremely stiff though and the little adjustment tongue is perfectly placed to find its way into a trigger guard.

ETA: This may be worthy of a separate thread, if so move it or I'll start one.

VolGrad
03-09-2011, 02:22 PM
Re: belts for AIWB.

I think whatever carry belt you normally would use is fine. If the tongue or extra fold-over flap (on Wilderness type belts) gets in the way just pull the buckle part around to your weak side ... thus wearing the belt off center. You are probably wearing your shirt tail out anyway, right?

I have to do this occasionally when wearing forward of 3 o'clock with regular OWB holsters because I ordered my last Wilderness belt too long.

I think I even noticed TLG wearing his belt waaaaay off center this weekend and I suspect it's for the same reason. No, I wasn't staring at his crotch or belt area. I was just watching him closely during the draw.

JohnN
03-09-2011, 02:27 PM
In my experience the added length of the G17 holster helps keep the G19 gripframe closer to the body.

The leather backing makes the holster more comfortabe against the skin.

dookie1481
03-09-2011, 03:28 PM
I like nylon belts for two reasons:

1. It's easier to offset the buckle. The buckle generally takes up less space and is easier to adjust when in close proximity to a belt buckle. I find this helps with printing, or if you carry multiple items forward of you hips.

2. They are adjustable in basically infinitely small increments. This helps with comfort immensely. With a leather belt you are limited by the space between the holes.

SmokeJumper
03-09-2011, 03:36 PM
Is there any model or style of belt that you all have found particularly well- (or poorly-) suited to AIWB carry?

The buckle on the belt I've been wearing for the past few years broke recently. Thankfully it was at a moment I didn't have my gun on; shame on me for not having it but a lucky break on the timing since I was walking up to the counter at the pediatrician's office to pay.

I've always worn a heavy stiff leather belt vs. the nylon models, though I do have an Ares Ranger belt. It's extremely stiff though and the little adjustment tongue is perfectly placed to find its way into a trigger guard.

ETA: This may be worthy of a separate thread, if so move it or I'll start one.

I've worn my Ares Ranger a few times for AIWB carry. It works ok, but seems to add a little extra bulk up front due to the Cobra buckle and the belt being overlapped on itself due to the Ares design. Still its a great gun toting belt with great support. So far the best belt for me has been a Wilderness Instructor or Frequent Flyer belt. Both work great for me and support both gun and mag(s) concealed. I don't have a solid leather belt for gun carry, gonna try a Belt Man or 5Shot in the near future. For belt selection, I think the same principles apply as for any carry belt selection, it needs to have good solid support and not roll over due to weight of the items/weapons carried.

joshs
03-09-2011, 04:06 PM
Unless I am carrying tuck-able AIWB, I offset the buckle to around four o'clock. Not only does this get the buckle out of the way, if for some reason the buckle breaks, my holster is still relatively secure due to the distance it is from the end of the belt.

ToddG
03-09-2011, 04:20 PM
1. It's easier to offset the buckle.
2. They are adjustable in basically infinitely small increments.

This. Plus they tend to be properly stiff while maintaining comfort, and they are fairly inexpensive compared to higher end "gun" belts.

My belt buckle is just forward of 9 o'clock.

mc1911
03-11-2011, 02:15 PM
If you've had an appendectomy, is it still considered appendix carry?:D

turbolag23
03-11-2011, 02:24 PM
If you've had an appendectomy, is it still considered appendix carry?:D

on that note if your left handed is it still considered appendix carry?

tmoore912
03-18-2011, 03:02 PM
Great forum by the way. I've been reading for several months now, and decided to join in on the conversation.

I started experimenting with appendix carry about 3 years ago. I started with small guns and then worked my way up to full size ones. I've tried Comp-Tac 2'oclock, MTAC Neutral Cant, BladeTech neutral cant, Dale Fricke Ehub, Joab, and have finally settled on his Archangel. I have two of them. One for my Glock 17 and 26, and one for my Government and Commander 1911s. I have several behind the hip style holsters, but I never wear them anymore. For me the Archangel is very comfortable, and works well for me. Being Kydex, it keeps this Georgia heat from turning my guns into rust buckets. I can wear them all day and night in total comfort. I do have to clarify from my experience with AIWB. At first, placing a Kydex holster at 1:30 was not very comfy. It took my body about a week to get use to a holster in that position, so don't expect AIWB to be comfortable at first. Now, I don't even notice.

The hardest part about Appendix carry is wearing it with business clothing, like a suit or with a Sport coat. It is real easy to do casually though.

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/Holsters/AIWB/IMG_2102.jpg

JohnN
03-19-2011, 11:23 AM
That goes to show you how differant holsters work better for some folks and not others. Can't speak to the Archangel but I found that the Joab didn't conceal for me at all. However, the Shaggy and Raven's ACR worked well.

IMO, AIWB may be the most dependent on body type and holster placement of any of the carry positions.

JodyH
03-19-2011, 11:35 AM
Believe it or not, I've found that the Blackhawk CQC leather IWB works very well for AIWB.
I originally picked it up as a temporary carry holster while I waited on my higher end holsters to come in.
I use it quite a bit with certain pants that don't fit my Archangel's loop spacing.
It's not pretty and it would not hold up to several years worth of daily carry, but it's inexpensive and works well enough for occasional carry.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/p2k_bhiwb.jpg

ubervic
03-19-2011, 12:13 PM
That Blackhawk holster looks pretty good, and yet I'm thinking that its cant would be better suited for 2:30-4:30 wear and that it would be an issue for AIWB. (Perhaps it's adjustable and I just didn't know it...?)

JDM
03-19-2011, 12:45 PM
That Blackhawk holster looks pretty good, and yet I'm thinking that its cant would be better suited for 2:30-4:30 wear and that it would be an issue for AIWB. (Perhaps it's adjustable and I just didn't know it...?)

Adjustable 360 degrees.

JodyH
03-19-2011, 05:04 PM
That Blackhawk holster looks pretty good, and yet I'm thinking that its cant would be better suited for 2:30-4:30 wear and that it would be an issue for AIWB. (Perhaps it's adjustable and I just didn't know it...?)
The cant is fully adjustable.
There is velcro between the belt loop and the holster body, along with a "Chicago screw" that secures the belt loop.

justcor
03-19-2011, 08:50 PM
Great forum by the way. I've been reading for several months now, and decided to join in on the conversation.

I started experimenting with appendix carry about 3 years ago. I started with small guns and then worked my way up to full size ones. I've tried Comp-Tac 2'oclock, MTAC Neutral Cant, BladeTech neutral cant, Dale Fricke Ehub, Joab, and have finally settled on his Archangel. I have two of them. One for my Glock 17 and 26, and one for my Government and Commander 1911s. I have several behind the hip style holsters, but I never wear them anymore. For me the Archangel is very comfortable, and works well for me. Being Kydex, it keeps this Georgia heat from turning my guns into rust buckets. I can wear them all day and night in total comfort. I do have to clarify from my experience with AIWB. At first, placing a Kydex holster at 1:30 was not very comfy. It took my body about a week to get use to a holster in that position, so don't expect AIWB to be comfortable at first. Now, I don't even notice.

The hardest part about Appendix carry is wearing it with business clothing, like a suit or with a Sport coat. It is real easy to do casually though.

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/Holsters/AIWB/IMG_2102.jpg
I've been using a JOAB for a G19 and I just ordered a Archangel from Dale last week. From the picture you posted your belt appears to be a 1.5inch. I'm using a Wilderness Instructor five stitch belt in 1.5 inch. I find the G19 seems to tuck better than the G26. My question is have you tried a wider belt with success? I asked Dale to swap out the straps on the Archangel to 1.5inch which he did. I should have the holster next week but I wonder if the 1.75 inch belt with the proper straps might be a better option?

tmoore912
03-20-2011, 07:55 AM
IMO the Archangel is a big step up from the Joab. I had problems getting the gun to position correctly with the Joab. I have no such isssues with the Archangel. With regards to the belt, the belt in the picture is an A&C Custom Gun Leather (http://www.agcustomgunleather.com/)and is 1.25" wide. I use 1.25" leather belts because I mainly wear dress slacks or suits during work and I need a belt that can fit through the belt loops on those pants. I have three and they work well for me. I have one of the older versions of the Archangel that had different Pull-the-Dot straps. They are rubber and have holes in them so that I can make adjustments for the two different belt sizes I wear.

I also have two Wilderness 5 Stitch Instructor belts that I sometimes use. I can't feel a difference with comfort or ride while using the leather belts or the Wilderness belts.

I have used the Archangel with a Glock 19, and the gun tucks in nicely and is very concealable. I think you are really going to like the new holster since you are moving from the Joab.

Here is the Glock 19 with the Archangel.

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/Holsters/IMG_0461.jpg

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/Holsters/IMG_0495.jpg

JodyH
03-20-2011, 08:06 AM
The new Archangel loops are a big improvement over the "Blade-Tech" belt loops.
They are thinner and lie flatter against your belt.

JodyH
03-20-2011, 08:08 AM
I asked Dale to swap out the straps on the Archangel to 1.5inch which he did. I should have the holster next week but I wonder if the 1.75 inch belt with the proper straps might be a better option?
Every Archangel I've received from Dale has had all three belt loops (1.25, 1.5, 1.75) in with it.

MechEng
03-20-2011, 10:32 AM
That goes to show you how differant holsters work better for some folks and not others. Can't speak to the Archangel but I found that the Joab didn't conceal for me at all. However, the Shaggy and Raven's ACR worked well.

IMO, AIWB may be the most dependent on body type and holster placement of any of the carry positions.

This statement is very true. I've been carrying AIWB for about 15 years now with various handguns (Browning HP, Commander length 1911's, various Glocks, M&P9 and now a P30). Over that time I've gone through various levels of fitness and my gut & waist line has grown & shrunk like the ocean tide. In the 90's while in the military I had the wash board abs, then the food blister set in when I got out, then I grew tired of being fat & got fit again and finally I now once again have a small gut. Guys that have a triangle shaped torso with the broad shoulders and small waist seam to have more options when it comes to holster design and placement. It's not impossible to carry AIWB with a larger waist line - you just have to figure out the right combination of holster design, position on the waist line and cover garment. Unfortunately this leads to the phenomenon known as "The Giant Box Of Holsters" hiding in your closet.

justcor
03-20-2011, 12:26 PM
IMO the Archangel is a big step up from the Joab. I had problems getting the gun to position correctly with the Joab. I have no such isssues with the Archangel. With regards to the belt, the belt in the picture is an A&C Custom Gun Leather (http://www.agcustomgunleather.com/)and is 1.25" wide. I use 1.25" leather belts because I mainly wear dress slacks or suits during work and I need a belt that can fit through the belt loops on those pants. I have three and they work well for me. I have one of the older versions of the Archangel that had different Pull-the-Dot straps. They are rubber and have holes in them so that I can make adjustments for the two different belt sizes I wear.

I also have two Wilderness 5 Stitch Instructor belts that I sometimes use. I can't feel a difference with comfort or ride while using the leather belts or the Wilderness belts.

I have used the Archangel with a Glock 19, and the gun tucks in nicely and is very concealable. I think you are really going to like the new holster since you are moving from the Joab.

Here is the Glock 19 with the Archangel.

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/Holsters/IMG_0461.jpg

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/Holsters/IMG_0495.jpg
Thanks for the feedback. I honestly found little problems concealing the Joab but I found the holster hard to take on and off especially when out running errands to say the Post Office where I'm not able to carry legally. As long as the Archangel fits like the Joab I'm going to be happy.

justcor
03-20-2011, 01:03 PM
Every Archangel I've received from Dale has had all three belt loops (1.25, 1.5, 1.75) in with it.
Thanks for the info. In my communication with Dale he didn't mention that it came with several straps.

SBR
03-20-2011, 03:16 PM
Hi, all. new member here. I'd like to know from those of you that like AIWB carry, how tall are you? I've been trying this as opposed to my normal IWB behind the hip. I'm only 5'8" and have trouble sitting down. pistol is HK P30. Thanks, SBR.

(edited by ToddG: merged thread from Autoloader section)

gtmtnbiker98
03-20-2011, 03:21 PM
Do you have a gut?

tmoore912
03-20-2011, 03:23 PM
[Q?UOTE=SBR;6874]Hi, all. new member here. I'd like to know from those of you that like AIWB carry, how tall are you? I've been trying this as opposed to my normal IWB behind the hip. I'm only 5'8" and have trouble sitting down. pistol is HK P30. Thanks, SBR.[/QUOTE]

Where are you wearing the holster? Do you have it more at 2:00 and hitting yourself in the leg/thigh? Or do you have it more toward the centerline 12:00 and still having trouble?

SBR
03-20-2011, 03:46 PM
No gut, I weigh 145 lbs. I'm a southpaw, been trying it at about 11:00. Guess I'll try it with the slide at about 12:00. Thanks, SBR.

TCinVA
03-20-2011, 04:31 PM
What holster are you using? Note that you shouldn't be attempting to carry AIWB...or anywhere else, for that matter...without a proper holster that covers the trigger guard.

SouthNarc
03-20-2011, 05:25 PM
SBR what's your normal inseam? Shorter torsos don't seem to do as well with A-IWB.

JodyH
03-20-2011, 05:42 PM
Thanks for the info. In my communication with Dale he didn't mention that it came with several straps.
If for some reason yours doesn't come with the 1.25 or 1.75, PM me and I'll send you the extras I have laying around.

John Ralston
03-20-2011, 06:16 PM
SBR what's your normal inseam? Shorter torsos don't seem to do as well with A-IWB.

I can second this...although the future might be a bit different :cool:

SBR
03-20-2011, 07:44 PM
TCinVA, using a Comp-Tac IWB. Not ideal since it has a bit of cant. Just seeing if it will work for me before I order a neutral cant holster. Trigger guard is covered, my P30 is the S model and I always use the safety. 30 years of carrying a 1911, I always sweep safeties off and on even when the pistol I'm carrying at the time doesn't have one.
SouthNarc, inseam is 29". I do have a barrel chest and a flat stomach so it seem an ideal placement for concealment. I've centered the pistol at 12:00 and it's working better than at 11:00. Thanks, SBR.

SouthNarc
03-20-2011, 07:48 PM
Roger that. Doesn't sound like that's the problem then.

SELFDEFENSE
03-21-2011, 11:30 AM
Carried a Glock 19 and 26 in a Sparks Mini-Max MMX IWB from 1995 to about 1999 at 3:30.
Long story short, I'm in an auto repair shop and 2 guys walk in and start asking about 6 or 7 aimless questions like "Are there any ice cream stores in this neighborhood?"
Self notices a third guy in a car near the front door pointed to the last Route 66 entrance before D.C. As I start to slowly slide my now profusely sweating hand along my belt back towards 3:30, I wish (1) my Glock 26 was somewhere between 12:01 and 1:30 (2) had a grip about 3 times larger and (3) did not tuck so neatly and comfortably under my rib cage. For whatever reason, no festivities ensued and I decided to act on my visceral realizations during that non-incident.
As a result, I had a Eucledian moment and realized that the shortest distance between 2points is the shortest distance.
From that day in 1999 forward, I started to carry appendix and did not carry any more compacts by moving to a Glock 17L and other subsequent guns (note to self: do not immediately reholster a 17L at 1:30 after a long firing string into a IWB holster made for a G19 :eek:).
So my 3 reasons for carring AIWB are:
(1) Speed without haste
(2) Speed without haste
(3) Speed without haste

VolGrad
03-21-2011, 12:25 PM
Shorter torsos don't seem to do as well with A-IWB.

I told this to TLG over dinner after the AFHF class and he scoffed at me. He's a normal/tall guy though so I guess he doesn't understand the plight of us little guys. :cool:

ToddG
03-21-2011, 04:14 PM
As a result, I had a Eucledian moment

That's excellent. :cool:


I told this to TLG over dinner after the AFHF class and he scoffed at me. He's a chubby/tall guy though so I guess he doesn't care about the plight of us little guys. :cool:

Fixed it for ya.

In all seriousness, just look at both Snarc and SLG. They're both vertically challenged -- though I'll never divulge which of them actually shops at Kids'R'Us for his suit pants -- and both manage AIWB just fine. SLG has probably given more thought to AIWB holster design than anyone I know. And in the end, that's what it all boils down to: very well thought out holster design.

JohnN
03-21-2011, 04:33 PM
From that day in 1999 forward, I started to carry appendix and did not carry any more compacts by moving to a Glock 17L and other subsequent guns (note to self: do not immediately reholster a 17L at 1:30 after a long firing string into a IWB holster made for a G19 :eek:).

Probably only takes once.

ubervic
03-21-2011, 05:37 PM
As I start to slowly slide my now profusely sweating hand along my belt back towards 3:30, I wish (1) my Glock 26 was somewhere between 12:01 and 1:30 (2) had a grip about 3 times larger and (3) did not tuck so neatly and comfortably under my rib cage. For whatever reason, no festivities ensued and I decided to act on my visceral realizations during that non-incident.
As a result, I had a Eucledian moment and realized that the shortest distance between 2points is the shortest distance.
From that day in 1999 forward, I started to carry appendix and did not carry any more compacts by moving to a Glock 17L and other subsequent guns (note to self: do not immediately reholster a 17L at 1:30 after a long firing string into a IWB holster made for a G19 :eek:).
So my 3 reasons for carring AIWB are:
(1) Speed without haste
(2) Speed without haste
(3) Speed without haste

hmmmmmm......my recent wonderings about the pros & cons of behind-the-hip versus AIWB are becoming more & more lopsided.

Frankly, the careful contortions that we perform while drawing from 3:30-4:30 at the range probably do not serve us as well, quickly, efficiently and naturally as the shortest-distance-between-two-points approach of AIWB that real-world conflicts demand.

I'm not sure quite yet that I'm ready to dump the p2000sk for a larger piece, but I'm certain that it's time to select an AIWB holster.

dookie1481
03-21-2011, 06:06 PM
In all seriousness, just look at both Snarc and SLG. They're both vertically challenged -- though I'll never divulge which of them actually shops at Kids'R'Us for his suit pants -- and both manage AIWB just fine. SLG has probably given more thought to AIWB holster design than anyone I know. And in the end, that's what it all boils down to: very well thought out holster design.

I don't have a fraction of the experience that those guys have, but I can attest to this. I am 5'5" and I find AIWB to be FAR more comfortable than strong side IWB carry.

VolGrad
03-21-2011, 07:27 PM
..... very well thought out holster design.
I guess that's what I need then. I have tried a few AIWB holsters but other than the one from TT for tiny guns I haven't found "the one".

Rverdi
03-21-2011, 07:46 PM
This thread has become long and there is a tremendous amount of valuable information to be taken from all the posts.
If, however, you came in late and are now considering aiwb, PLEASE go back to the beginning and read Todd's original posts... Three times.

tmoore912
03-21-2011, 07:49 PM
I guess that's what I need then. I have tried a few AIWB holsters but other than the one from TT for tiny guns I haven't found "the one".

Vol, didn't you have a Shaggy or Looper at one time? How much time did you put into trying to make it work appendix? When I started, it took weeks for my body (the area wear you place the holster) to get use to having the holster and gun in that position. It kind of sucked actually! And then it took even more time dialing in the "sweet spot".

Come on, you know you want it to work.:p

VolGrad
03-21-2011, 08:01 PM
Vol, didn't you have a Shaggy or Looper at one time? How much time did you put into trying to make it work appendix? When I started, it took weeks for my body (the area wear you place the holster) to get use to having the holster and gun in that position. It kind of sucked actually! And then it took even more time dialing in the "sweet spot".

Come on, you know you want it to work.:p

Yes, I had a Shaggy for a G19. I also used a couple of others briefly. I used it for a short time and it felt good when upright. It concealed well too. It felt like it was poking into the main artery in my leg while seated at times and put my leg to sleep.

joshs
03-21-2011, 08:09 PM
It felt like it was poking into the main artery in my leg while seated at times and put my leg to sleep.

This happened to me when I first tried AIWB as well. Moving the gun about an inch towards my centerline (top of the slide right at 12 o'clock) cured all the discomfort in my leg; the brain discomfort took switching to a hammer fired pistol.

SLG
03-21-2011, 08:21 PM
RVerdi has a great point there for those coming in late, or those who just skip to the end.

Todd is too kind, and since he switched to AIWB, he has probably thought more about it then in all the years I previously carried that way combined.

For what it's worth, Glocks have always been slightly less comfortable for me than other guns I've carryed AIWB. I think the squared trigger guard puts it's "point" right into the thigh, and also makes it fairly wide for such a small gun. A 1911, for example, seems much trimmer in that area, though I've never taken any measurements.

I do not buy suits at baby gap. Babies don't wear suits. That only leaves Snarc:p

ToddG
03-21-2011, 08:24 PM
I do not buy suits at baby gap.

I didn't say Baby Gap. Guilty conscience & misdirection... :cool:

John Ralston
03-21-2011, 09:32 PM
They do, however, sell suits in the young men's department at JC Penney...just sayin

justcor
03-21-2011, 09:38 PM
The new Archangel loops are a big improvement over the "Blade-Tech" belt loops.
They are thinner and lie flatter against your belt.
I got the package from Dale today with the Archangel and one mag pouch. It showed up about 8 hours ago and I've had it on since then. I can say that is tucks better than my Joab. And the ability to pull it off and on easily is a huge improvement over the Joab. The straps are different that what tmoore912 posted they are thinner. The package only came with the 1.5inch loops that I ordered which is fine as all my belts are that size.

Overall I can say I'm very happy. Sorry for the crappy cellphone picture. :D

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5017/5548462635_f8a8a579fc_z.jpg

SouthNarc
03-22-2011, 11:08 AM
It really does come down to intelligent holster design more than anything. Before it was even called "A-IWB" I used to carry a gun in the vasectomy position buying dope in a confined/crowded space like a bar. I was able to conceal a Browning Hi-Power, a 1 watt body wire with external antennae, and a Nagra recorder at 5-8", 160. Clothing choices, equipment position, and gear selection are really where it's at.

That being said though I will say that guys with shorter torsos generally seem to have a harder time finding the "right" A-IWB holster. If two guys are both 5-9" and one guy has a 30" inseam and the other has a 33" inseam, then the latter guy will usually have a harder time finding A-IWB gear that works for him than the guy with the longer torso. It can be overcome, and I think now since the holster makers are actually working with the details that round out a great A-IWB holster the choices are better than ever.

As a side note, almost every single time I had a gun stuck in my face buying crack, it usually came from A-IWB. Of course I didn't really have the choice of cueing on the movement to the position since more often than not it was dope coming out instead of a gun. Glad those days are behind me.......

jkgreen01
03-24-2011, 11:50 AM
I just received an Archangel for a Glock 17, which I carry my G19 in. The extra length keeps the holster stable. I did round the end of the holster on the sight channel side, as it was digging a little. Other than that, it is a very nice holster. I'm still getting used to the AIWB mode of carry.

KentF
03-24-2011, 01:49 PM
I'm another vertically challenged guy, 5' 7", 30" inseam, trying to get down from my current 175#. I really want to start carrying AIWB and will as soon as I get my slide back from Heinie's. I have a High Noon Public Secret to start with. I'm anticipating the passage of concealed carry on campus here in Texas so I can begin to carry at work. My work dress is business casual (docker type pants and shirt & tie) and I'm just not sure how to work this method of carry into the dress. If I carried between 3:00-4:00 I could just wear a sport coat although it would be very uncomfortable during the summers. Any suggestions.

Mods: feel free to move this if it is more appropriate as a separate thread.

BigT
03-24-2011, 02:44 PM
Possibly a very stupid point , I get the advantages of AIWB carry but a concern I don't remember seeing discussed. While we can be super careful when reholstering what about in the event of a tussle over the gun. Mr. Badguy is likely to be less concerned about finger off the trigger while you are potentially fighting over a gun that could be pointing at your boys and your femoral. What am I missing ?

John Ralston
03-24-2011, 05:27 PM
I think maybe the concealment factor - bad guy won't even know it's there until you draw and end the confrontation.

Really no different than any other rig - if bad guy has a grip on YOUR gun and his finger on the trigger, you did something wayyyy wrong.

BigT
03-25-2011, 12:15 AM
John I get your point about the concealment advantage. That will help reduce the likelyhood.

Re the finger on the trigger obviously it's a bit (maybe too much ) worst case scenario I'm not thinking exactly that he has a perfect grip with finger on the trigger more the potential for fingers and thumbs migrating in there like the draw string on a jacket.

Though I may still order a AIWB holster from you once I get my IBS :)

TCinVA
03-25-2011, 08:01 AM
I'm another vertically challenged guy, 5' 7", 30" inseam, trying to get down from my current 175#. I really want to start carrying AIWB and will as soon as I get my slide back from Heinie's. I have a High Noon Public Secret to start with. I'm anticipating the passage of concealed carry on campus here in Texas so I can begin to carry at work. My work dress is business casual (docker type pants and shirt & tie) and I'm just not sure how to work this method of carry into the dress. If I carried between 3:00-4:00 I could just wear a sport coat although it would be very uncomfortable during the summers. Any suggestions.

Mods: feel free to move this if it is more appropriate as a separate thread.

I think it's relatively safe to assume that an untucked shirt is pretty much required for AIWB carry with the holsters most of us have been discussing. It wouldn't be impossible for someone to invent a tuckable AIWB holster, but I don't know of any right off hand.

turbolag23
03-25-2011, 08:03 AM
I think it's relatively safe to assume that an untucked shirt is pretty much required for AIWB carry with the holsters most of us have been discussing. It wouldn't be impossible for someone to invent a tuckable AIWB holster, but I don't know of any right off hand.

Raven's ACR is a tuckable AIWB.

SLG
03-25-2011, 08:17 AM
I'm another vertically challenged guy, 5' 7", 30" inseam, trying to get down from my current 175#. I really want to start carrying AIWB and will as soon as I get my slide back from Heinie's. I have a High Noon Public Secret to start with. I'm anticipating the passage of concealed carry on campus here in Texas so I can begin to carry at work. My work dress is business casual (docker type pants and shirt & tie) and I'm just not sure how to work this method of carry into the dress. If I carried between 3:00-4:00 I could just wear a sport coat although it would be very uncomfortable during the summers. Any suggestions.

Sort of a modified AIWB, but have you looked at smartcarry, or thunderwear? For certain situations, I have found them to be excellent. Kahr 9 type guns seem to work best for me, but G26's and 19's are doable, just not as good. I've seen big guys carry 1911's, but I wouldn't do that for several reasons. A J frame may be ideal.

BigT
03-25-2011, 10:01 AM
If fingers or thumbs or even drawstrings can migrate in while the gun is holstered, I think you need to be using a different holster.

I'm obviously not doing a stellar job of getting my point across. I don't mean things getting in the trigger guard while holstered. I meant something getting into the trigger guard while fighting for retention of the pistol. The drawstring example was meant to be that in a similar vein to a drawstring getting in there whle holstering can cause a problem something migrating into a trigger guard while fighting for control of the pistol.

tmoore912
03-25-2011, 10:17 AM
Its far easier to defend a holstered weapon on the centerline than it is anywhere else on the belt. Even if the BG gets his hand on the grip before I do, I can place my hand on top of his hand and exert enough pressure to keep the BG from being able to draw the holster. The BG would have to overcome my body's natural ability to apply a whole lot of downward pressure on the gun to be able to come out.

Plus, being on the front of your body helps you situational awareness because your eyes or on the front also. Hard to sneak up on someone from the front. There are trainers that have proof that it is far easier to defend a gun at AIWB in force on force training.

Dropkick
04-03-2011, 09:50 PM
The BG would have to overcome my body's natural ability to apply a whole lot of downward pressure on the gun to be able to come out.

I've seen an FOF evolution where it happened. There was a guy on this back that had his pistol ripped from his posession, because someone stomped on his chest and ripped the pistol out of his hands. So it happens. *shrugh*

AlanR
04-03-2011, 10:34 PM
Newbie here...

SLG...you mentioned another "possible" AIWB holster maker. Which maker are you referencing and is the holster available?

It was mentioned a couple of times that AIWB carry allows for (and is preferable for) full size pistol carry and that short barreled pistols may not be ideal. My primary carry handgun is a Kahr P9...too small?

JodyH
04-03-2011, 10:46 PM
I occasionally carry a CW9 or a PM9 AIWB in a Kramer #1 1/2 holster.
The design of that particular holster helps mitigate the short barreled guns tendency to rotate on your belt.

AlanR
04-03-2011, 10:53 PM
Thanks Jody...I am primarily interested in AIWB carry when I hike or when walking around town/neighborhoods etc. Seems to be the perfect mode of carry when upright and mobile.

dookie1481
04-04-2011, 12:31 AM
Thanks Jody...I am primarily interested in AIWB carry when I hike or when walking around town/neighborhoods etc. Seems to be the perfect mode of carry when upright and mobile.

IMO, it actually shines when you are NOT upright or mobile...just my opinion, though.

Try drawing from strong-side concealment when seated.

phil_in_cs
04-04-2011, 08:50 AM
My Shaggy came in on Friday, right in time for a training day on Saturday. I've been using an Archangel for a year+, and didn't see a huge difference w/ the Shaggy. I do like the overbelt clip connector better than the snap loops on the AA.

AlanR
04-04-2011, 10:26 AM
IMO, it actually shines when you are NOT upright or mobile...just my opinion, though.

Try drawing from strong-side concealment when seated.

Good point...and correct. I was thinking more along the lines of easier/quicker access while upright.

SmokeJumper
04-21-2011, 03:59 PM
I know Todd is T&Eing a Cane&Derby AIWB holster, is anyone else using one? If so, I 'd like to see a pic or two of the holster on and being carried. I was checking out the website but was having a hard time picturing how their holster works with a belt clip and a belt loop, I'm used to a dual belt loop configuration.. Was just curious and looking for some feedback.

Matt O
04-21-2011, 10:33 PM
SmokeJumper,

I just got one in the mail and used it for the first time at the range tonight. It's too soon for me to give much of a review as this is my first AIWB holster and I am still figuring things out slowly (extra slowly given I am rather fond of my "wedding tackle").

In terms of initial feedback, the holster is well made and quite sturdy. It seems to hold the pistol quite snugly, but does lack that "click" you get with other holsters like Ravens when you insert the pistol all the way - if that's important to you. By the way, mine (and I'm going to guess all new versions of their holster now?) shipped with two loops instead of a clip and a loop.

Overall, I definitely haven't found the sweet spot of where to position it, both in terms of not feeling like it's drilling into my large intestine, as well as not having the end of the grip print. I'm carrying a P30 which, while not small, appeared to print a bit more than I expected it would.

SmokeJumper
04-25-2011, 09:53 PM
SmokeJumper,

I just got one in the mail and used it for the first time at the range tonight. It's too soon for me to give much of a review as this is my first AIWB holster and I am still figuring things out slowly (extra slowly given I am rather fond of my "wedding tackle").

In terms of initial feedback, the holster is well made and quite sturdy. It seems to hold the pistol quite snugly, but does lack that "click" you get with other holsters like Ravens when you insert the pistol all the way - if that's important to you. By the way, mine (and I'm going to guess all new versions of their holster now?) shipped with two loops instead of a clip and a loop.

Overall, I definitely haven't found the sweet spot of where to position it, both in terms of not feeling like it's drilling into my large intestine, as well as not having the end of the grip print. I'm carrying a P30 which, while not small, appeared to print a bit more than I expected it would.

If you get a chance, post up a pic or two. From the website it looks wider overall in the body than the the shaggy. Glad to hear its working for ya.

hecate
04-26-2011, 03:55 AM
AIWB can be ideal for women in many ways. I use a FIST All Around for my bobtail Commander 1911, and the holster fits perfectly in the hollow of my hipbone. In that position, snugged in with a good solid belt, the drape of my shirt from my bustline conceals the gun perfectly. I can carry an all-steel gun all day like this and never even feel it.

I used a hair dryer to shape the kydex extensions at the top of the holster to conform more to the shape of the gun. This carry position is just one more reason I like my thumb safeties that positively engage the slide.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Ga Shooter
04-26-2011, 08:21 PM
HUGE thanks to TMOOR912!!! He let me borrow an Archangel for a G17 for a week +. Wow it took no time for me to get comfortable with AIWB carrying. It really is the most comfortable and concealable way for me to carry. Due to my body size, shape and how I wear my clothes I will be going with a G19 and the very long wait for a SHAGGY. But I am going to jump on this bandwagon. And again thanks to TMOORE912.

tmoore912
04-26-2011, 08:52 PM
HUGE thanks to TMOOR912!!! He let me borrow an Archangel for a G17 for a week +. Wow it took no time for me to get comfortable with AIWB carrying. It really is the most comfortable and concealable way for me to carry. Due to my body size, shape and how I wear my clothes I will be going with a G19 and the very long wait for a SHAGGY. But I am going to jump on this bandwagon. And again thanks to TMOORE912.

Ga Shooter you are very welcome. I am glad I was able to let you try a appendix holster to see how it would work for you, without having to blindly buy one and then try it out. I wish I could have done that before buying all the holsters I tried out for appendix carry. I'm glad I was able to help.

WoodLark
05-01-2011, 09:39 AM
I know Todd is T&Eing a Cane&Derby AIWB holster, is anyone else using one? If so, I 'd like to see a pic or two of the holster on and being carried. I was checking out the website but was having a hard time picturing how their holster works with a belt clip and a belt loop, I'm used to a dual belt loop configuration.. Was just curious and looking for some feedback.

I purchased a Cane & Derby AIWB holster a couple months ago, and carry it every day. Interestingly enough, I had it made for an M&P .45, but it works perfectly for an FNP9 (the gun I carry most often) and a Ruger P345.

Here is a link to a review (with pictures) that I posted to the Defensive Carry Forum:

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-carry-holsters-carry-options/121188-review-cane-derby-appendix-holster.html

SmokeJumper
05-01-2011, 02:19 PM
Thanks WoodLark.

eliminator
05-05-2011, 11:43 AM
New to forum.

I carry AIWB because I must be 100% concealed. I feel my small 380 is less visible in this location than even the pocket.

My question has to do with reholstering. I like to take the holster off my belt, it's a tuckable leather with a clip (I don't usually tuck), slide the hard double action pistol in with safety on, and put the whole rig in position. This is how I would handle pocket carry, with a holster, as well. Does anyone think this doesn't solve the safety issues with holstering/reholstering?

joshs
05-05-2011, 01:19 PM
My question has to do with reholstering. I like to take the holster off my belt, it's a tuckable leather with a clip (I don't usually tuck), slide the hard double action pistol in with safety on, and put the whole rig in position. This is how I would handle pocket carry, with a holster, as well. Does anyone think this doesn't solve the safety issues with holstering/reholstering?

Taking the holster off your belt solves the safety issue, but it's a lot of extra work if you actually want to practice with your carry gun/holster.

Ga Shooter
05-05-2011, 02:10 PM
New to forum.

I carry AIWB because I must be 100% concealed. I feel my small 380 is less visible in this location than even the pocket.

My question has to do with reholstering. I like to take the holster off my belt, it's a tuckable leather with a clip (I don't usually tuck), slide the hard double action pistol in with safety on, and put the whole rig in position. This is how I would handle pocket carry, with a holster, as well. Does anyone think this doesn't solve the safety issues with holstering/reholstering?

Future potential customer of THE GADGET!

turbolag23
05-06-2011, 10:04 AM
is the Shaggy tuckable? i primarily wear tucked in shirts at work and i'm looking for a tuckable AIWB

JV_
05-06-2011, 10:09 AM
is the Shaggy tuckable?No.

Dropkick
05-06-2011, 10:33 AM
is the Shaggy tuckable? i primarily wear tucked in shirts at work and i'm looking for a tuckable AIWB

Perhaps this might work:

http://www.desantisholster.com/store/SEARCH-BY-HOLSTER-OR-ACCESSORY/INSIDE-THE-WAIST-BAND-HOLSTERS/sof-tucktm/glock/19-23-32

I'd be curious to hear what people think.

JV_
05-06-2011, 10:58 AM
Perhaps this might work:

http://www.desantisholster.com/store/SEARCH-BY-HOLSTER-OR-ACCESSORY/INSIDE-THE-WAIST-BAND-HOLSTERS/sof-tucktm/glock/19-23-32

I'd be curious to hear what people think.

I seem to prefer AIWB holsters that have the bottom of the belt lining up with the front of the trigger guard. That allows me the best conceal-ability but lets the gun sit high enough to get a good grip.

That holster *looks* like the gun may sit too deep in the holster - for me.

ToddG
05-09-2011, 05:40 PM
This aiwb thing may be catching on. A group of Staff, SMEs, and friends got together to do some shooting this weekend (before the SLG Pistol Fundamentals class (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?874-SLG-Mini-Course)) and purely by coincidence, every single one of us that showed up that morning was carrying in an appendix holster:

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-pJDHMpZ/0/L/i-pJDHMpZ-L.jpg

Shellback
05-09-2011, 05:49 PM
purely by coincidence, every single one of us that showed up that morning was carrying in an appendix holster:

And a polo shirt ;)

willowofwisp
05-09-2011, 07:41 PM
And a polo shirt ;)

and a hat haha.

JV_
05-09-2011, 07:44 PM
and a hat haha.We were banging on steel for most of the day ... hats are a good idea for that.

I could shoot plate racks all day.

willowofwisp
05-09-2011, 07:56 PM
We were banging on steel for most of the day ... hats are a good idea for that.

I could shoot plate racks all day.

That is true, so it looks liek bigger guys can carry AIWB, for some reason i cant though, when I sit my stomach pushes the barrel of the gun into my lower abdomonen area.

Super J
05-09-2011, 09:38 PM
This aiwb thing may be catching on. A group of Staff, SMEs, and friends got together to do some shooting this weekend (before the SLG Pistol Fundamentals class (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?874-SLG-Mini-Course)) and purely by coincidence, every single one of us that showed up that morning was carrying in an appendix holster:

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-pJDHMpZ/0/L/i-pJDHMpZ-L.jpg

Did anyone have a rig that was not one of the usual...Dale Fricke, CCC etc?

ToddG
05-10-2011, 08:13 AM
Did anyone have a rig that was not one of the usual...Dale Fricke, CCC etc?

Off the top of my head, I think there was one Desantis, one Blade Tech, two or three Cane & Derby, and the rest were all CCC Loopers or Shaggys.

joshs
05-10-2011, 09:19 AM
Did anyone have a rig that was not one of the usual...Dale Fricke, CCC etc?

I'm using a Don Hume H715 MSO in that picture. The only other holster besides CCC and CDI that I remember was a Comp-tac 2 o'clock.

ToddG
05-10-2011, 09:28 AM
... I remember was a Comp-tac 2 o'clock.

That's right... I blocked that one out of my memory.

turbolag23
05-10-2011, 09:40 AM
I'm using a Don Hume H715 MSO in that picture. The only other holster besides CCC and CDI that I remember was a Comp-tac 2 o'clock.

I have a H715 as well but wasnt too fond of it AIWB, i ordered a Shaggy with leather backing in hopes that will work better for me.

joshs
05-10-2011, 09:58 AM
I have a H715 as well but wasnt too fond of it AIWB, i ordered a Shaggy with leather backing in hopes that will work better for me.

Is it the clip or leather loop version? Mine definitely doesn't conceal as well as a dedicated AIWB holster, but it's the best inexpensive, readily available holster I've found for AIWB. I also have a 31" waist, which helps with concealment since I don't have anything pushing the grip/rear of the slide away from my body.

I think you'll find that the Shaggy is a much better holster for AIWB. I'm only using the H715 while I wait for a Shaggy as well.

turbolag23
05-10-2011, 10:44 AM
Is it the clip or leather loop version? Mine definitely doesn't conceal as well as a dedicated AIWB holster, but it's the best inexpensive, readily available holster I've found for AIWB. I also have a 31" waist, which helps with concealment since I don't have anything pushing the grip/rear of the slide away from my body.

I think you'll find that the Shaggy is a much better holster for AIWB. I'm only using the H715 while I wait for a Shaggy as well.

mine has the clip. i really like it for an inexpensive holster.
i primarily run iwb with a MTAC but the leather backing collapses and makes the gun harder to remove/reholster. i thought that was a good reason to try AIWB. i have no idea what the lead time is for the Shaggy but i'm excited.

agent-smith
05-10-2011, 06:46 PM
FWIW, "appendix carry" just didn't ring-my-chimes.

The comfort just wasn't there; I've been carrying either a 5" 1911 or a G23/G19 nearly daily for more than 10yrs in a "conventional" IWB holster and I don't even feel the pistol. With AIWB, it always felt extremely uncomfortable. Frankly, I was kind of surprised as I'm not short and I don't have a gut (6'3"/~200lbs) but AIWB just did not work at all (for me).

I seem to do okay with my current method of carry, and I'm glad that AIWB works for many but for me I'll just stick with "conventional" IWB. To each their own. :)

LittleLebowski
05-10-2011, 07:03 PM
What holster did you try?


FWIW, "appendix carry" just didn't ring-my-chimes.

The comfort just wasn't there; I've been carrying either a 5" 1911 or a G23/G19 nearly daily for more than 10yrs in a "conventional" IWB holster and I don't even feel the pistol. With AIWB, it always felt extremely uncomfortable. Frankly, I was kind of surprised as I'm not short and I don't have a gut (6'3"/~200lbs) but AIWB just did not work at all (for me).

I seem to do okay with my current method of carry, and I'm glad that AIWB works for many but for me I'll just stick with "conventional" IWB. To each their own. :)

agent-smith
05-10-2011, 08:00 PM
Holster was a Sidearmor IWB.

JodyH
05-10-2011, 08:13 PM
Just any old IWB does not make a good AIWB.
Would you carry strong side with a SOB holster and complain that it didn't work well?

agent-smith
05-10-2011, 08:48 PM
Just any old IWB does not make a good AIWB.
Would you carry strong side with a SOB holster and complain that it didn't work well?

I'm not sure what you mean by "SOB holster"; if my post came across as "complaining", it wasn't intentional.

I'm just stating that I prefer conventional IWB carry to AIWB. No, I'm not saying that IWB is "better" than AIWB, or that AIWB is somehow "flawed". I just prefer IWB; personally, I don't really think the issue is that big of a deal. Like I "said" before, I'm glad that AIWB works for you and others. Maybe some day I'll try a different holster and see how it goes but for now I'll probably just stick with IWB.

(Edit - SOB = "Small of Back"?)

Kyle Reese
05-10-2011, 08:57 PM
SOB = small of the back holster

There's nothing wrong with not carrying AIWB. It's not for everyone, and if you're proficient with your current method of carry, more power to ya. :cool:




I'm not sure why you mean by "SOB holster"; if my post came across as "complaining", it wasn't intentional.

I'm just stating that I prefer conventional IWB carry to AIWB. No, I'm not saying that IWB is "better" than AIWB, or that AIWB is somehow "flawed". I just prefer IWB; personally, I don't really think the issue is that big of a deal. Like I "said" before, I'm glad that AIWB works for you and others. Maybe some day I'll try a different holster and see how it goes but for now I'll probably just stick with IWB.

LittleLebowski
05-10-2011, 09:00 PM
I think if you tried a purpose built holster like the Shaggy, your mind would change. It certainly isn't a good test without a purpose built holster.

agent-smith
05-10-2011, 09:06 PM
I think if you tried a purpose built holster like the Shaggy, your mind would change.

Perhaps.


It certainly isn't a good test without a purpose built holster.

Yes, this ^ makes sense.

LittleLebowski
05-10-2011, 09:10 PM
As luck would have it, Custom Carry Concepts just caught up on orders and the Shaggy (http://shop.customcarryconcepts.com/Shaggy-AIWB-SHG.htm) is not very expensive for what you get.

I'd recommend the leather sweatguard if you do get one...

turbolag23
05-10-2011, 10:02 PM
As luck would have it, Custom Carry Concepts just caught up on orders and the Shaggy (http://shop.customcarryconcepts.com/Shaggy-AIWB-SHG.htm) is not very expensive for what you get.

I'd recommend the leather sweatguard if you do get one...

thats exactly what i just ordered. i was debating between the CCC, CDI, and RCS.

(enough acronyms for everyone?)

Vinh
05-10-2011, 10:13 PM
As luck would have it, Custom Carry Concepts just caught up on orders
Thanks for the notice, just placed an order.

BigT
05-11-2011, 03:45 AM
What AIWB rigs have the um less "svelte" guys found to work well?

Im a bit chubby which doesnt help but want to give it another try. The Arcangel just didnt work for me.

Frank B
05-11-2011, 05:09 AM
BigT,
the Arcangel didnīt work for me, too. Iīve never found the sweet spot to get comfy.
IMHO, the Safariland #27 holster is a good solution (cheap, availiable and fits well).
Itīs surely not comparable to a Shaggy, Looper,CDI, Invictus or the awaited Holster from 5Shot Leather, but it does the job very well.

Dropkick
05-11-2011, 07:44 AM
Would it be possible for someone to start a "Picture Reference Guide to AIWB hoslters" thread? I know there is a couple handfuls of options, but without some serious internet searching, comparing them all at once is tough at best.

Maybe a post format like:
[Picture]
Name
Cost
Link to purchase
Comments

BigT
05-11-2011, 02:19 PM
Thanks Frank I will try see where I can get one here.


I'd be happy to spend the time and money required to get the upcoming 5 shot leather AIWB but first want to convince myself of the utility of AIWB for me.

A shaggy isn't an option unfortunately because he won't export.

TGS
05-11-2011, 02:38 PM
Thanks Frank I will try see where I can get one here.


I'd be happy to spend the time and money required to get the upcoming 5 shot leather AIWB but first want to convince myself of the utility of AIWB for me.

A shaggy isn't an option unfortunately because he won't export.

Try and befriend someone from the US, perhaps through pf.com or the Shivworks course coming to South Africa. Order it and have your friend ship it to you.

I, as well as others, have done this for members on HKPRO.com that have trouble getting stuff imported.

JM Campbell
05-11-2011, 02:45 PM
Thanks Frank I will try see where I can get one here.


I'd be happy to spend the time and money required to get the upcoming 5 shot leather AIWB but first want to convince myself of the utility of AIWB for me.

A shaggy isn't an option unfortunately because he won't export.

What pistol? If it is a HK P30 I can help a friend out, done it before.

BigT
05-11-2011, 03:07 PM
What pistol? If it is a HK P30 I can help a friend out, done it before.

Thanks dude. :) unfortunately it's all Austrian Dark Side for me. Appreciate it.


TGS good idea I might need to chat to one of my mates over there.

Living in the third world , it has more downsides than the obvious ones. Ask me about Sig 226 mags one day :)

JM Campbell
05-11-2011, 03:12 PM
No problem, good luck to you in your search.

BigT
05-11-2011, 03:23 PM
Thanks mate. I really think the little G30SF GTS that is coming home soon will make an awesome little AIWB gun.

Frank B
05-11-2011, 05:23 PM
BigT,
if you canīt find one, drop me a line. Iīll get one and send it to SA.

BigT
05-12-2011, 12:04 AM
Thank you Frank :)

EVP
05-12-2011, 01:20 PM
Can anyone comment about the ability to get a full grip on the gun when carrying AIWB?

From some of the pictures in this thread it seems that the top of the pants and top of the belt are close to the grip of the gun and would prevent getting a good full grip.

JV_
05-12-2011, 01:23 PM
From some of the pictures in this thread it seems that the top of the pants and top of the belt are close to the grip of the gun and would prevent getting a good full grip.With the Shaggy, I can get a good grip. My middle finger gets in the right place.

This issue pops up when trying to use a traditional IWB holster, at least for me. It's probably because it's less of an issue when the gun has a cant, but when you remove it and try AIWB, you move it closer to the belt.

The sweat guard is often in the way too, on Kydex holsters I often trim them back.

LittleLebowski
05-12-2011, 01:25 PM
No problems on the Shaggy or Looper, KevinP.

EVP
05-12-2011, 04:15 PM
Thanks JV and LittleLebowski, I have a Shaggy on the way and will try it out.

ToddG
05-13-2011, 08:20 AM
Can anyone comment about the ability to get a full grip on the gun when carrying AIWB?

Yes. My comment is: If you cannot get a full grip on the gun when carrying AIWB, you have a bad holster.

NickA
05-21-2011, 08:55 PM
PSA: If you want a Shaggy go order it now. Website advises that orders will be closed again tomorrow and wait time is already 15 weeks.
and yes i put my order in before making this post:o

High Noon
05-22-2011, 10:35 AM
Can anyone comment about the ability to get a full grip on the gun when carrying AIWB?

From some of the pictures in this thread it seems that the top of the pants and top of the belt are close to the grip of the gun and would prevent getting a good full grip.

This depends on the design intention of the holster, while we are on team "Full grip on the gun or combat grip" some are not and deep concealment is more important then getting to the gun, so they have to deal with the 2 stage draw of a low ride holster.
We sell both kinds of holsters, combat grip and low ride, just depends on the job you have for the holster. http://www.highnoonholsters.com/_Questions/_questions.html#123
http://www.highnoonholsters.com/_Questions/_questions.html#90


Hope that helps some
Alex

Chefdog
05-30-2011, 09:09 AM
I was lucky enough (thanks to a staff member) to buy a CCC Shaggy for my M&P to try out and have been wearing it around the house for a VERY short while. My initial impression is that I'm surprised at how well it hides the full sized gun on me. The design does indeed help pull the gun into my stomach, although I think the length of the grip is still a little too long to be completely hidden with only one layer of clothing. Because of the wedge shape it's seems to be kind of thick and the loop sticks out a bit more than I anticipated. Before picking up this holster I already ordered a shaggy for a G19. My question for those of you who've used the Looper and Shaggy, is does the Looper achieve the same effect of holding the grip tight to the body while also being a little thinner profile?
Any comments regarding how the two compare in size/effectiveness/comfort would be greatly appreciated (or Compared to a Fricke Archangel?) I'm considering switching my order to a Looper to give them both a shot, but figured I'd ask first since some of you have used them both.
Thanks

Pennzoil
05-30-2011, 10:18 AM
Any comments regarding how the two compare in size/effectiveness/comfort would be greatly appreciated (or Compared to a Fricke Archangel?) I'm considering switching my order to a Looper to give then both a shot, but figured I'd ask first since some of you have used all of the above extensively.
Thanks


I have a Shaggy for my Glock 19 and Archangel for my FS M&P 9mm as the Shaggy wasn't available at the time I picked up an M&P. I think the Archangel is slightly more comfortable but doesn't conceal as well for me as the shaggy. I have modified my archangel to have a wedge so it keeps the grip in tighter to my stomach and it's working better for me now. I like the Archangel but when CCC started accepting holster orders again I rushed to put in my Shaggy order for my M&P. I think if I had a little less gut the Archangel would of worked fine.

Rich has always been open to modifying items I order to my liking so maybe an email to him would help. I always have a slight modification and he's been really open to this when I've asked. I don't have a ton of AIWB experience so consider that when reading my ramblings:p.

Chefdog
05-30-2011, 01:50 PM
I have a Shaggy for my Glock 19 and Archangel for my FS M&P 9mm as the Shaggy wasn't available at the time I picked up an M&P. I think the Archangel is slightly more comfortable but doesn't conceal as well for me as the shaggy. I have modified my archangel to have a wedge so it keeps the grip in tighter to my stomach and it's working better for me now. I like the Archangel but when CCC started accepting holster orders again I rushed to put in my Shaggy order for my M&P. I think if I had a little less gut the Archangel would of worked fine.

Rich has always been open to modifying items I order to my liking so maybe an email to him would help. I always have a slight modification and he's been really open to this when I've asked. I don't have a ton of AIWB experience so consider that when reading my ramblings:p.

What did you end up doing to the Archangel to "fix" it? The Archangel seems like it's a lot thinner than a shaggy from pictures.
This is my first AIWB holster, so I wouldn't know where to begin to suggest any mods to the design. Ill just have to try a couple out. Thanks for the input.

Pennzoil
05-30-2011, 06:41 PM
What did you end up doing to the Archangel to "fix" it? The Archangel seems like it's a lot thinner than a shaggy from pictures.
This is my first AIWB holster, so I wouldn't know where to begin to suggest any mods to the design. Ill just have to try a couple out. Thanks for the input.

It's not the greatest work I've done but I added a plastic wedge to the back of the back of the belt loop on the grip side of the holster via tape as an experiment that's just stayed for awhile. Looks crappy but it's secure and gets sandwiched between the belt and pants so can't really see it anyway while pushing the grip in. I was planning on making a more permanent solution but now that I have a shaggy on order this will work till then.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9441/img2848j.jpg


I also had to shape the kydex for the thumb safety on the archangel as it was pushing the gun out more with the safety pressing so hard against the holster. Rich is going to make my Shaggy for a thumb safety model which is always a better option.

Chefdog
05-31-2011, 05:48 AM
Pennzoil,
Thanks for the picture. Looks like a workable solution if you get the improved concealment and a bit thinner holster.

JV_
05-31-2011, 06:11 AM
When Shaggys were unavailable, I modified my Blade-Tech IWB holsters for AIWB use. I folded and epoxied some kydex to form a wedge, designed to pushed the grip in to my body. I secured it by using the existing screw holes for tension adjustment. It worked surprisingly well considering it was built with a heat gun, Dremel, a pair of scissors ... and $1. The best part was the Blade-Tech was immediately available from Brownells.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-8up0TxYtheE/TeTLJB4bTfI/AAAAAAAAAJA/524u7iXNszU/s720/IMG_5666.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_qkuweJyZP8/TeTLJe3vUWI/AAAAAAAAAJE/nm_SrenRo5I/s720/IMG_5667.JPG

Chefdog
05-31-2011, 06:55 AM
When Shaggys were unavailable...

This seems to be a recurring theme! The Shaggy seems to have universal acceptance as the top dog in AIWB holsters. As a guy new to this, I'm trying to figure it all out.
Does anyone else find the thickness of the wedge/loop combo to really stick out on them? It could definitely be that I'm somehow doing something wrong or overthinking it, but to me it looks really thick. Would the snap loops make a difference?

ETA: JV, your mod of the bladetech, as well as Pennzoil's holster above both appear to keep the overall package as thin as possible (and also help tuck in the grip). I always assumed that was a main priority, for both comfort and concealment. That's why I was surprised at how thick (relatively) the shaggy is. But obviously the benefits of the design outweigh the negatives for most or there wouldn't be such a demand.

As always, I appreciate any and all comments.

JV_
05-31-2011, 06:58 AM
Would the snap loops make a difference?Snap loops print less, but I prefer the rigid kydex loop for added stability.

DocGKR
05-31-2011, 10:59 AM
The CCC Shaggy absolutely did NOT work for me--for my body type, the CCC Looper or Fricke Seraphim/Archangel work much better than the Shaggy. On the other hand, the guys I gave my G19 and M&P Shaggy's love them; it is all how the pistol/holster integrates with your specific anatomy.

Chefdog
05-31-2011, 09:29 PM
Thanks for the input guys. I was beginning to think I was the only one who was having an issue with the Shaggy. Although I stepped on the scale yesterday for the first time in a while and wasn't too happy with the number looking up at me :mad: Dropping a few pounds and inches might just be the ticket.

JV_
06-01-2011, 05:38 AM
Although I stepped on the scale yesterday for the first time in a while and wasn't too happy with the number looking up at me :mad: Dropping a few pounds and inches might just be the ticket.It's funny what motivates people. I'm also cutting back as a result of how my AIWB holster started fitting.

turbolag23
06-01-2011, 08:22 AM
i sure hope the shaggy fits me whenever it shows up. holiday weekends, especially birthday ones, never turn out good for my relationship with the scale.

Chefdog
06-01-2011, 10:01 AM
Rich has always been open to modifying items I order to my liking so maybe an email to him would help. I always have a slight modification and he's been really open to this when I've asked.
I took your advice and sent Rich an email. Within a few hours I received a phone call from him and we were able to sort out a change to my order in about ten minutes :cool: Really great customer service from a guy who's obviously very busy and probably doesnt have a lot of time on his hands!


i sure hope the shaggy fits me whenever it shows up.
It seems that there are FAR more people who find the Shaggy excellent than not. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Ga Shooter
06-01-2011, 04:15 PM
It's funny what motivates people. I'm also cutting back as a result of how my AIWB holster started fitting.

+1. Anticipating being batter off when mine gets here!:p

Pennzoil
06-01-2011, 07:30 PM
I took your advice and sent Rich an email. Within a few hours I received a phone call from him and we were able to sort out a change to my order in about ten minutes :cool: Really great customer service from a guy who's obviously very busy and probably doesnt have a lot of time on his hands!

Glad it worked out for you!:) He's customer service for the everyday customer like you and I is really awesome considering the current demand for his products.