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View Full Version : Where to compete with the gun I'd actually carry?



45dotACP
04-15-2014, 07:05 PM
I want to compete, but is there any competition anywhere that lets a guy use a laser or weapon mounted light?

Lon
04-15-2014, 08:11 PM
Depends on what clubs you have around and what style matches they put on. Lasers and WMLs are not allowed in IDPA or USPSA iirc. There might be a WML exception for LE duty weapons, but I'd have to double check rule book.

If you have a good relationship with a club that hosts matches, they may let you run them for no score. I am lucky, the club I shoot indoor Monday night matches (USPSA based) lets me run a laser/WML in the dark if I want. They just put me in open class competing against the rest of the red dot guys.

Lon
04-15-2014, 08:12 PM
Oh, yeah. Check for a KSTG match.

PPGMD
04-15-2014, 11:55 PM
You can use both in USPSA Open IIRC.

You aren't going to be able to stay at the same pace as people with red dots, comps, 170mm magazines, and mag wells the size of a small station wagon. But you can shoot it, and compare your HF (basically points per second) to limited and production.

orionz06
04-16-2014, 06:36 AM
It's a shame when USPSA becomes the avenue to shoot what you actually carry.

rob_s
04-16-2014, 10:22 AM
It's a shame when USPSA becomes the avenue to shoot what you actually carry.

Unless I misunderstand the latest rule book, IDPA allows for an "outlaw" class at local matches that allows you to shoot and see your scores.

Then the shooter can come up with all their reasons why they got beat with their ninja gun by a guy shooting a stock Glock from a strong-side IWB holster and wearing a t-shirt.

orionz06
04-16-2014, 10:42 AM
Allows for... Not "will let you and then report scores for you"...


Not that it keeps me from playing but I find it laughable that they're stuck 2 decades back and show no signs of caring that they've become a joke.

OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor
04-16-2014, 10:43 AM
Per Rob above > " Unless I misunderstand the latest rule book, IDPA allows for an "outlaw" class at local matches that allows you to shoot and see your scores. "

I run an M&P CORE w/ an RMR06 @ my local IDPA club matches w/ out issues. They tabulate my time/score, not that I get all spun up about it mind you.

While I am an IDPA SO, any of the other 30 or so shooters could do the same w/ the understanding that RDS's are a no-go @ sanctioned matches. FWIW I treat IDPA as training, could care less about the game/gamers as I had this very discussion w/ Paul when I was trying to decide about shooting IDPA sev. yrs ago.

JM Campbell
04-16-2014, 01:09 PM
I ran a rmr G17 in a IDPA local clubs 3 gun match with standard mags in "outlaw". I shot the whole match pistol only, took my division and 11th overall. Yes they were bitching I had a $500 sight on a pistol, I thought I was at a disadvantage shooting against ar-15 with brakes/comps and $1200 1-6 optics....go figure.


It was fun smoking some dudes with a pistol only....yes sir it was.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

Jared
04-18-2014, 07:09 AM
It's a shame when USPSA becomes the avenue to shoot what you actually carry.

I actually think it's kind of appropriate really. I think that some of the founding ideas from Cooper and the rest were pretty much "no limits, see what works." Now I grant that there was really no way to tell where the masses would take that "no limits" part, but the fact that some of these new technologies (like RMR's) are allowed in USPSA really shouldn't be a surprise.

Nor do I find it particularly surprising that a sport formed at least in part in protest to USPSA forbids a lot of stuff that USPSA allows.

If anything, I think the whole thing illustrates a couple points. First, the equipment available to the average citizen with a CCW has truly come a long way. The whole red dot optic on a pistol thing was for such a long time a gamer thing, and was railed against by many for a long time. Now, slide riding optics are becoming accepted. Second, I think the idea of a division where (Almost) anything goes (USPSA Open) is a good thing. Yes, it will end up being a rather expensive equipment race. That's unavoidable with a division like that. Where it shines though is when folks want to experiment. Wanna AIWB a pistol with a slide mounted RMR and a WML? Open is there for you.

JeffJ
04-18-2014, 09:57 AM
As a fellow gamer, I couldn't agree more. I think that we tend to forget that much, not all, but much of contemporary pistolcraft has its roots in guys trying to get the edge to win competitions. Thumbs forward grip, ISO, red dots, I think that much of our ideas of sight tracking comes from Enos' work; certainly not everything in competition is good or relevant to self defense, but the leading edge of the tactical world has kept tabs on the competition world for some time now, and you can see that as equipment and technique evolve.

So, yeah, USPSA Open is the place for new, pushing the edge ideas - always has been

45dotACP
04-18-2014, 12:56 PM
So is Open cool with a CTC laser? Granted I think I'd get beat with a bar of soap in a sock by the other shooters if I showed up with a J-frame and lasergrips, but for the sake of argument...is that a no go in USPSA?

orionz06
04-18-2014, 02:15 PM
Some things have come a long way, some rules haven't...

PPGMD
04-18-2014, 02:29 PM
So is Open cool with a CTC laser? Granted I think I'd get beat with a bar of soap in a sock by the other shooters if I showed up with a J-frame and lasergrips, but for the sake of argument...is that a no go in USPSA?

I suppose, I don't see any rules against it.

ADulay
04-18-2014, 03:35 PM
45dotACP,

Just take the J-frame and whatever is connected to it down to the local IDPA match and have at it. No need to be in an "outlaw" match or any of that silliness. Just shoot it and see what works.

We've never turned down anybody with a laser or a light. It's kind of interesting what happens to some people when running a laser on their carry gun. Now, I'm not talking a "red dot" scope/rig here, just your basic laser on a handgun thing.

Shoot it and enjoy it. Tell them you're just checking it out and don't worry about the scores.

AD


Sent from my Glock Academy iPad using Tapatalk and a screwdriver

JMS
04-19-2014, 10:39 PM
So is Open cool with a CTC laser?
From the USPSA rulebook, Appendix D1 -- Open Division....


12. Restriction on position of holster and other equipment. No
13. Optical/electronic sights permitted. Yes
14. Installed flashlights permitted. Yes

...

21. Authorized modifications. Not applicable
22. Prohibited modifications. Not applicable

Seems fairly straightforward; the laser is an electronic sight, and is permitted. Lights are directly spoken to. #s 21 and 22 are a huge part of what makes Open, "open."

Guys will run duty belts in Open, with similar equipage as described in the OP....if they run into problems, it'll be because they have a dropped-offset holster or other equipment that puts gun/mags more than 2" away from the inner surface of the belt. See #10 of the same Appendix. If you're good on that facet, I'd seriously doubt that anybody at a USPSA match would even blink hard over a gun with light or laser or both.

45dotACP
04-19-2014, 11:59 PM
Awesome! Thanks for the info everybody.

ranger
04-20-2014, 09:53 AM
I have been shooting USPSA/IPSC for a long time - not as much now due to work. I remember many years ago when USPSA shooters tried using lasers in competition - for COMPETITION use (emphasized) they were seen as slower than iron sights or the early red dots so they did not catch on for COMPETITION use. I have seen people use lasers in a USPSA match back in the day. Not saying you should not use a laser sight but they were not seen as a COMPETITIVE advantage in a daylight USPSA event at that time.

I agree with other poster that USPSA has been a proving ground for techniques and equipment.

Dr. No
04-20-2014, 07:23 PM
I can usually outrun a laser, because I don't have to see the sights on the target before I'm pulling the trigger. They do help immensely in small guns and at night, but unless you're using NVG's I don't think they will help competitively in a full size gun. Lasers are also difficult to see clearly in bright daylight, especially at long distances.

TheTrevor
04-20-2014, 07:31 PM
Might be fun to revisit the accepted wisdom about lasers with a close-to-bore-axis green laser set to show the dot slightly above the front sight at 7 yd. Some of the new units are seriously bright, and quite visible in full daylight within typical USPSA distances.

Mr_White
04-22-2014, 10:20 AM
I couldn't agree more with what's been said.

Directly to the original question, you can legally shoot an appendix-carried, laser-gripped, WML'd, mini-RDS'd pistol in Open Division of USPSA. Competitively, it will be a ridiculous hill to climb. Developmentally, if you try to climb that hill over and over and over and don't let yourself get frustrated, it is going to help light your skills on fire. Morally, if you personally are committed to competing as you carry, it's the only place where you have an equal place at the table and can shoot for official score and can roll how you want to roll.

USPSA Open truly is the original division where the pressure of competition is used to help determine which techniques and equipment work 'best.' Over decades, this has led to a number of significant equipment changes that have raised the bar of potential performance from equipment that has evolved to the point of factually being practical for defensive practitioners of the plain-clothes and uniformed varieties.

LittleLebowski
04-22-2014, 10:24 AM
I couldn't agree more with what's been said.

Directly to the original question, you can legally shoot an appendix-carried, laser-gripped, WML'd, mini-RDS'd pistol in Open Division of USPSA. Competitively, it will be a ridiculous hill to climb. Developmentally, if you try to climb that hill over and over and over and don't let yourself get frustrated, it is going to help light your skills on fire. Morally, if you personally are committed to competing as you carry, it's the only place where you have an equal place at the table and can shoot for official score and can roll how you want to roll.

USPSA Open truly is the original division where the pressure of competition is used to help determine which techniques and equipment work 'best.' Over decades, this has led to a number of significant equipment changes that have raised the bar of potential performance from equipment that has evolved to the point of factually being practical for defensive practitioners of the plain-clothes and uniformed varieties.

Excellent post!

JeffJ
04-22-2014, 10:27 AM
Might be fun to revisit the accepted wisdom about lasers with a close-to-bore-axis green laser set to show the dot slightly above the front sight at 7 yd. Some of the new units are seriously bright, and quite visible in full daylight within typical USPSA distances.

That could be interesting, theoretically could work much like a dot.

The thing about lasers is that most skilled shooters are going to be able to outrun them using the sights with a decent lighting condition, grip and stance - where lasers shine (ba dum!) is in the more compromised light, stance, grip situations. I'm a big proponent of competition as testing ground, but I think this is an area where we've got to critically think about what is being tested. I think lasers have a value that isn't going to be very evident in competition.

Says the guy with no lasers...

Rick Finsta
04-28-2014, 12:46 PM
I couldn't agree more with what's been said.

Directly to the original question, you can legally shoot an appendix-carried, laser-gripped, WML'd, mini-RDS'd pistol in Open Division of USPSA. Competitively, it will be a ridiculous hill to climb. Developmentally, if you try to climb that hill over and over and over and don't let yourself get frustrated, it is going to help light your skills on fire. Morally, if you personally are committed to competing as you carry, it's the only place where you have an equal place at the table and can shoot for official score and can roll how you want to roll.

USPSA Open truly is the original division where the pressure of competition is used to help determine which techniques and equipment work 'best.' Over decades, this has led to a number of significant equipment changes that have raised the bar of potential performance from equipment that has evolved to the point of factually being practical for defensive practitioners of the plain-clothes and uniformed varieties.

So after reading something that Nyeti posted somewhere or another, about performing his tac-load and such prior to unloading and showing clear, is this going to be a super annoying thing to do at local level matches? As much as I want good reps under stress, I found myself almost INSTANTLY learning to unload, check clear, show clear, and hammer down in my very first USPSA match, without much thought. I don't want that to develop, but don't want to be "that guy" at the same time.

JeffJ
04-28-2014, 01:01 PM
I doubt that most of the squad would even notice. I would mention it to the RO before you shoot, they are used to seeing things and bucking that trend could throw them off a little, I wouldn't want to do that.

Mr_White
04-28-2014, 02:20 PM
So after reading something that Nyeti posted somewhere or another, about performing his tac-load and such prior to unloading and showing clear, is this going to be a super annoying thing to do at local level matches? As much as I want good reps under stress, I found myself almost INSTANTLY learning to unload, check clear, show clear, and hammer down in my very first USPSA match, without much thought. I don't want that to develop, but don't want to be "that guy" at the same time.

I couldn't claim to be well-traveled enough in USPSA to have a sense of how this would go over anywhere other than the clubs I usually shoot at. Even there, how it will be received probably depends on who happens to be the RO. Bottom line is that it is not against the rules, so they shouldn't be able to have a very big problem regardless of how much it might conceivably annoy them. I have holstered a hot gun at the end of a USPSA stage on a number of occasions, just out of habit. No one got upset about it. They just repeated 'if finished, unload and show clear.'

I think adopting a deliberate 'hard break' practice may help counteract ingraining an unload and show clear response. Even if the hard break doesn't also include scanning or reloading (though that would be better), just taking a deliberate moment of dismounting the pistol back to a ready position, taking a deep breath, taking a moment to consider 'is there anything else I need/want to do?' before unloading and showing clear, might be very helpful in avoiding the habit you are concerned about.

JeffJ
04-28-2014, 02:29 PM
That is also a good competition habit, especially for those moments when you might have missed a steel target or something.

Dr. No
04-28-2014, 07:19 PM
I couldn't claim to be well-traveled enough in USPSA to have a sense of how this would go over anywhere other than the clubs I usually shoot at. Even there, how it will be received probably depends on who happens to be the RO. Bottom line is that it is not against the rules, so they shouldn't be able to have a very big problem regardless of how much it might conceivably annoy them. I have holstered a hot gun at the end of a USPSA stage on a number of occasions, just out of habit. No one got upset about it. They just repeated 'if finished, unload and show clear.'

I think adopting a deliberate 'hard break' practice may help counteract ingraining an unload and show clear response. Even if the hard break doesn't also include scanning or reloading (though that would be better), just taking a deliberate moment of dismounting the pistol back to a ready position, taking a deep breath, taking a moment to consider 'is there anything else I need/want to do?' before unloading and showing clear, might be very helpful in avoiding the habit you are concerned about.

You will probably get yelled at if you do that, because the RO is expecting you to unload and show clear. Easy way to prevent that - tell the RO that at the end of your COF you're going to do a reload so it coincides with your training. There is nothing in the rules preventing you from doing it, so there's not a lot of arguing he can do.

I have to agree with Origami - automatically programming yourself to reload is not a good habit either. Proper post shooting procedures will vary depending on circumstance, but the one thing you will need to always do is evaluate your target you've engaged. That target may need more shooting, so if you automatically reload and a threat pops up you may be left with one round and way behind the power curve.

I would suggest just stopping, scan and assessing, and then *thinking* about the problem at hand. In this case you'll need to unload. In other cases you may have to reload. In some others you may need to shoot more... All three of those conditions could also be proper in a match setting.

Rick Finsta
04-30-2014, 02:58 PM
Sounds good - I'll rattle that around in my skull for awhile and see what comes out. Thanks!

rob_s
04-30-2014, 03:28 PM
I couldn't agree more with what's been said.

Directly to the original question, you can legally shoot an appendix-carried, laser-gripped, WML'd, mini-RDS'd pistol in Open Division of USPSA. Competitively, it will be a ridiculous hill to climb. Developmentally, if you try to climb that hill over and over and over and don't let yourself get frustrated, it is going to help light your skills on fire. Morally, if you personally are committed to competing as you carry, it's the only place where you have an equal place at the table and can shoot for official score and can roll how you want to roll.

USPSA Open truly is the original division where the pressure of competition is used to help determine which techniques and equipment work 'best.' Over decades, this has led to a number of significant equipment changes that have raised the bar of potential performance from equipment that has evolved to the point of factually being practical for defensive practitioners of the plain-clothes and uniformed varieties.

Great post.

What would be especially interesting is looking, then, at the overall scores without taking into account division.

If you show up to the track in a Ferrari, and get lapped by a guy in a Datsun 510...

TheTrevor
04-30-2014, 03:47 PM
Hit factor is hit factor, no matter who you are and what gun setup you're running.

Comparing points will tell you how accurately you're shooting vs other folks. Hit factor will tell you if you can keep up on accuracy and do it fast.

Mr_White
04-30-2014, 04:12 PM
Great post.

What would be especially interesting is looking, then, at the overall scores without taking into account division.

If you show up to the track in a Ferrari, and get lapped by a guy in a Datsun 510...

Thanks rob. I agree, and I love looking at the combined results and comparing scores cross-division.

1986s4
05-01-2014, 09:51 AM
I see dudes shooting pistols outside of IDPA rules all the time. They get scored but not officially recognized in the results. It is good to see if the latest advancement is an actual advancement or a disappointment.

AtomicToaster
05-01-2014, 10:22 AM
Hit factor is hit factor, no matter who you are and what gun setup you're running.

Comparing points will tell you how accurately you're shooting vs other folks. Hit factor will tell you if you can keep up on accuracy and do it fast.

USPSA's scoring system heavily emphasizes speed over accuracy, at least in the "hoser" stages our local club seems to favor, so I'm hesitant to get too caught up in hit factor at this level (B class shooter). I strive for all 'A's as fast as possible, and I have to check my ego when I see shooters who are a little bit faster and much less accurate beating me in the standings.

ST911
05-01-2014, 10:33 AM
USPSA's scoring system heavily emphasizes speed over accuracy, at least in the "hoser" stages our local club seems to favor, so I'm hesitant to get too caught up in hit factor at this level (B class shooter). I strive for all 'A's as fast as possible, and I have to check my ego when I see shooters who are a little bit faster and much less accurate beating me in the standings.

We started rotating some stage design duties to vary the speed:accuracy demands. Much success, minimal butt-hurt.

cclaxton
05-01-2014, 11:05 AM
In the Mid-Atlantic there are a few clubs that have "Action Pistol" matches that allow just about any kind of equipment. Good examples are "The Range" in Oxford, NC and York, PA Isaac Walton. I would look for clubs that offer similar matches in your area.

York has rescinded it's USPSA membership and runs: USPSA style matches with optional use of cover, etc. but they use TIME+ scoring like IDPA. I kinda like the idea, although I do like to see more use of cover rules and concealment rules.

Cody

orionz06
05-01-2014, 11:20 AM
York has rescinded it's USPSA membership and runs: USPSA style matches with optional use of cover, etc. but they use TIME+ scoring like IDPA. I kinda like the idea, although I do like to see more use of cover rules and concealment rules.

Cody

That sounds solid, I'll have to check them out. Concealment would be awesome, cover not so much since one cannot effectively determine cover from behind.