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View Full Version : 1911 Familiarization...and a 2000 round test



Sherman A. House DDS
06-22-2011, 03:39 PM
Like many of you here, I'm always in a, "testing," kind of mood or feeling. Whether in the lab, in the gym, or on an IDPA stage, I'm always thinking about, "improvement." With that goal in-mind, I decided to undertake the, "2000 round challenge," but with a gun that might not normally fit into the, "realm," of CCW or service pistols. I wanted to familiarize and gain proficiency with a 1911 pattern pistol, if for nothing else than to have an educated/experience based position from which to better understand 1911 trends, methods, idiosyncrasies, etc. I happened to have a gear item that a friend wanted, and in trade he had a 1911 pistol, of what I understood to be a, "less than desirable," brand. So, for very little, I got an Armscor 1911 Tactical in trade. I wanted to have the, "1911 experience," without paying $2000 for a custom pistol, or buying an off the shelf gun that would require a bunch of work to be able to use. I'm all for practicing malfunction clearance, but I'd prefer to do it with dummy rounds!

The gun was typical of a consumer 1911...carried/handled quite a bit, but hardly ever fired. Field stripping showed very little wear on the internals. I don't know alot about 1911's, but I don't care for full length guide rods, so I ditched the FLGR and the spring plug for Wilson Milspec parts. I didn't clean or wipe down the components; just lubed them and reassembled the gun. I spent a few weeks incorporating the 1911 into my dry-fire practice (nightly) to ingrain the manual of arms. After about a month, I felt confident to take the gun to the range and give it a run. The first magazine was fired from the draw at 10 yards onto an 8" bull center. The eight rounds grouped well, but were about 14" off to the left and about 8" high. I adjusted the sights until the rounds (WWB 230gr. ball) landed where I sent them. I then began to shoot the pistol with more WWB fed from McCormick Power mags, Tripp Cobra mags, Wilson, Novak mags, Mecgar and Springfield OEM magazines. Through 400 rounds of initial testing, NO malfunctions of any kind were encountered.

Over the next two months, I made several trips to the range for practice, and put rounds through the 1911 at each session. Through various exercises I experienced ZERO malfunctions of ANY kind, regardless of the magazine that was used. About the only negative thing I can say about the gun is that the sights are a bit wonky, and I haven't measured them with calipers, but to my eye they seem to be a bit off. The other is that about 70% of the parkerizing around the front strap and under the trigger guard came off, while shooting and wiping the sweat off the gun at the end of a range session. I haven't noticed any cracks, or observed any damage to the frame, slide, plunger tube, barrel or slide stop.

At first, this seemed very counter intuitive to me, as I didn't remember reading anything about Armscor being a, "mediocre," brand of 1911. I wanted a decent 1911 to familiarize myself with, and apparently, got one! Interestingly, I found after telling some 1911 fans about my, "ghettoblaster," that the STI Spartan uses many Armscor parts as its base components. So there is that...

I don't know if my experience is isolated. I've thought about ponying up another $400 for another Armscor Tactical and get a few thousand more rounds, but I honestly would rather spend the money on 9mm and more classes. An interesting experience, and one I thought the members here might be interested in hearing about without mucking up the 2000 round Challenge thread.

Thus, in the interest of comparative continuity:

Pistol: Armscor 1911 Tactical
Caliber: .45 ACP
Ammunition: Winchester White Box, 230 gr. FMJ
Dates of testing: 04/2011-06/17/2011
Total rounds fired: 2400
Stoppages: 0
Malfunctions: 0
Breakages: 0

Comments:
The FLGR and plug were replaced with GI spec components. I used McCormick Power Mags (8 round) AND 10 round Power mags, Wilson 47D, Novak, MecGar and Springfield Armory OEM magazines. It had a mag well (unknown whether it is OEM equipment or not) but I ditched it. It also has the excellent VCD Grips made by a member here.

I'll post a picture if anyone wonders what this thing looks like...the BEST looking thing about it are the VCD grips!

DocGKR
06-22-2011, 03:58 PM
Thank you.

As I have mentioned previously, I pretty much carried a 1911 daily from when I was commissioned in 1986 to January 2011 when my 1911's were retired in favor of M&P45's. I have been around quite a few 1911's over the past two decades of military and LE duty, including USGI, commercial Colt, SA (Milspec, Loaded, MC Oper, Professional models), Wilson, Kimber, Nighthawk, Les Baer, and Para Ord, as well as custom pistols by folks like Bill Laughridge, Wayne Novak/Joe Bonar, Ed Brown, John Jardine, Hilton Yam, Larry Vickers, and Chuck Rogers. Although it rattled and was heavily worn, the tired old 1944 manufactured M1911A1 I was issued in 1989-1990 went bang every time I pulled the trigger. A lot of 1911's with sub-standard parts will start breaking by 10,000 rounds or so. Those with quality parts and built to spec can run 100,000 rounds. My personal 1911's always ran as well as my Glocks.

Sherman A. House DDS
06-22-2011, 04:06 PM
Thanks Doc. This thing rattles, that's for sure!

ranburr
06-22-2011, 05:30 PM
You have learned what most do, that is the fact that most all 1911s run just fine. The huge majority of issues are shooter error.

Sherman A. House DDS
06-23-2011, 08:12 AM
69

Here it is...in all it's utilitarian ugliness! Also, I've since ditched the magwell.

Corvus
06-23-2011, 08:37 AM
The only thing the 1911 gives up to other designs is mag capacity.

JV_
06-23-2011, 08:39 AM
The only thing the 1911 gives up to other designs is mag capacity.Seriously?

What about:
-End User Serviceability / Troubleshooting
-Drop in Parts
-Overall Weight

Sherman A. House DDS
06-23-2011, 08:46 AM
Yep...alot has changed in the last 100 years of pistolcraft. I'm not going to hang up my M&P anytime soon in favor of the 1911. I DO have a better understanding of it's advantages and shortcomings though.

NickA
06-23-2011, 09:06 AM
Those grips are definitely what my buddy calls "lipstick on a pig":) but I love cheap guns that work. Good on you for doing this, I think everyone should at least spend some time with a 1911, whether you intend to carry it or not. The history alone makes it a neat experience.

Sherman A. House DDS
06-23-2011, 10:12 AM
Yep; the VCD grips are awesome! I've tried the VZ heavy traction grips before, and I like the VCD's better. If I carried appendix I don't think that the VCD's would abrade my skin badly. I don't wear an undershirt normally.

vcdgrips
06-23-2011, 10:12 AM
Dr. H

Thank you for the shout out re the grips. I confess that there is something quite sexy about a well worn 1911 that works.
The 1911 is the only other platform (Glock being my primary) that has ever held my attention. I have two older Series One 5 inch Kimbers and am on the lookout for another if it can be had at the right price.

David
www.vcdgrips.com

peterb
06-23-2011, 10:12 AM
Good on you for doing this, I think everyone should at least spend some time with a 1911, whether you intend to carry it or not. The history alone makes it a neat experience.

Yup. Much in the same way that every pilot should fly a Cub at least once. It's a tangible piece of history, and trying it makes all the talk make a lot more sense.

Sherman A. House DDS
06-23-2011, 10:24 AM
Thank you sir! You do excellent work! Yes...well worn guns have always seemed more, "interesting," to me than others. I plan to shoot this thing until the, "wheels fall off," possibly in IPSC/USPSA for workout. I'm sure the sight of it will make some of those guys sick!


Dr. H

Thank you for the shout out re the grips. I confess that there is something quite sexy about a well worn 1911 that works.
The 1911 is the only other platform (Glock being my primary) that has ever held my attention. I have two older Series One 5 inch Kimbers and am on the lookout for another if it can be had at the right price.

David
www.vcdgrips.com

Sherman A. House DDS
06-23-2011, 10:31 AM
As an aside, I recently went to the range with a friend who owns several high-end 1911's. He had brought along an Ed Brown (Recon IIRC) and a Nighthawk Custom (unknown model). Besides the audible rattle of my ghettoblaster which could be heard three stalls away, there was ZERO difference in how the guns functioned. Sure, his made literally no noise, and the safety felt, "softer," but on paper and timer, there was no difference.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here...BUT, I told him he spent about $4000 too much on his pair of 1911's, when he could've just purchased an Armscor! If he wasn't my attorney, I think he would've shot me!

NickA
06-23-2011, 11:18 AM
but on paper and timer, there was no difference.
I just love stories like that (not bashing high-end guns though). My 1911 is a rattle-trap SA GI model; it's only had a trigger job and a match bushing fitted to the factory barrel but it's more accurate than I am. And after this thread it's coming out of the safe this weekend.

Sherman A. House DDS
06-23-2011, 02:34 PM
Indeed...having nice things is nice! I COULD drive a Yugo to work, but instead I drive an Acura! They both, "do," what they need to do (either transport your ass from point A to point B/shoot bullets where you point them) but one does it in style and the other, "just," does it.

I DO have a SA 1911 from the SA Custom Shop that was a graduation gift from my Mom when I finished undergrad, but I haven't shot it extensively, simply because it feels like more of a trophy than it does like a tool I'd want to ding up. With the ghettoblaster, I would hammer nails and pry open paint cans with it if needs be!

ranburr
06-23-2011, 03:57 PM
The only thing the 1911 gives up to other designs is mag capacity.


+1

ranburr
06-23-2011, 04:13 PM
Seriously?

What about:
-End User Serviceability / Troubleshooting
-Drop in Parts
-Overall Weight


In order:

-I don't know where this myth was started. One of the easiest platforms made to completely strip and see what makes what work and to maintain.
-Some of the new kits come close, others require minor fitting, others require a lot of fitting. If you set it up right from the start it is doubtful that you will need new parts.
-Can't argue this, they weigh what they weigh. I don't find even steel framed models to be burdensome. Alloy framed guns carry as good as plastic, but do suffer from a diminished svc life.


Finally, no they are not Glocks in terms of simplicity and ease of (or lack of) maintenance. But, they certainly are not overly burdensome or unreliable as many seem to think. As stated above, most 1911 issues are operator error. The huge majority of the rest can be traced back to cheaply made clone and crap magazines. I suspect that when Glock has 50 companies making clones of various quality, the 17 will suddenly be named a pile of crap. To a certain degree Glock suffered some of this with the Korean mags. A

Kyle Reese
06-23-2011, 04:22 PM
In order:

-I don't know where this myth was started. One of the easiest platforms made to completely strip and see what makes what work and to maintain.
-Some of the new kits come close, others require minor fitting, others require a lot of fitting. If you set it up right from the start it is doubtful that you will need new parts.
-Can't argue this, they weigh what they weigh. I don't find even steel framed models to be burdensome. Alloy framed guns carry as good as plastic, but do suffer from a diminished svc life.


Finally, no they are not Glocks in terms of simplicity and ease of (or lack of) maintenance. But, they certainly are not overly burdensome or unreliable as many seem to think. As stated above, most 1911 issues are operator error. The huge majority of the rest can be traced back to cheaply made clone and crap magazines. I suspect that when Glock has 50 companies making clones of various quality, the 17 will suddenly be named a pile of crap. To a certain degree Glock suffered some of this with the Korean mags. A

The Korean Glock mags are piles of crap. It's a clone of an OEM item, and the phrase "ya get what ya pay for" certainly rings true. The 1911 has had it's day in the sun, but that day has long since passed.

For those that enjoy shooting / carrying 1911's, carry on and I hope this post doesn't offend.

JV_
06-23-2011, 04:24 PM
-I don't know where this myth was started. One of the easiest platforms made to completely strip and see what makes what work and to maintain.It's not a myth. I've had 1911 pistols from Les Baer, Rock River, Nighthawk and many others ... none were as reliable as my Gen3 Glocks. The Nighthawk had issues that even they couldn't figure out, specifically with a sticking trigger. It took Virgil @ Tripp Research to tinker with and fix. My Les Baer needed significant work, including welding by George at EGW. I was in communication with 3 of the top 1911 smiths around and all of them said that it needed George's touch.


To a certain degree Glock suffered some of this with the Korean mags.This one is easy, don't use Korean mags!


The 1911 is not as reliable as modern service pistols, there aren't too many ways around it:
http://pistol-training.com/articles/hk45-interview-with-ken-hackathorn-and-larry-vickers
Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers

Todd: How would you compare the HK45 to a top-quality custom 1911?

Ken: You can buy an HK45, send it to Bowie and get the mods that Larry suggests — though with my hand size I don’t need them — and get Heinie sights. You’ve got a pistol one half or even one third the price of a top 1911 pistol today that is more reliable and every bit as accurate. For most anybody I can imagine if you said you need a pistol to stake your life on and you’re going to be someplace you can’t run to a pistolsmith every time you need it, if your choice is between an HK45 and a 1911 and you don’t take the HK45, you’re ****’ing brain dead.

Larry: Yeah, I agree 100%. Ken is spot on. For the average guy, it’s a far better choice. The 1911 is an enthusiast’s pistols. In order to keep that gun running you have to, it’s not optional, you have to become your own armorer to a degree. You have to be able to diagnose and fix minor problems on an end user level. If you’re not willing to sign up for that, frankly you have no business running a 1911 for anything other than occasional recreational shooting. If you’re going to put yourself in harm’s way with that gun and you’re not willing to sign up for that, then you need to avoid it. The HK45 is clearly the better choice. For the overwhelming number of people who feel like they need to have a .45 the only two real choices are the M&P45 and the HK45 and push come to shove if I’ve got to trust my life to one or the other, it would be the HK45.

LittleLebowski
06-23-2011, 05:26 PM
-I don't know where this myth was started.

Larry Vickers has a bit to do with this "myth."

JV's experience mirror my own.

LittleLebowski
06-23-2011, 05:41 PM
Ranburr, this article (http://pistol-training.com/articles/hk45-interview-with-ken-hackathorn-and-larry-vickers) is pertinent to what we are talking about.

ToddG
06-23-2011, 05:50 PM
How anyone can suggest that the 1911 meets the same standards as modern semiautos is beyond me. Might some 1911s run great? Sure. But across the board you cannot possibly think that 50 randomly selected 1911s are going to be more reliable than 50 randomly selected Glocks, SIGs, Berettas, M&Ps, etc.

I cannot imagine there is anyone who is seriously involved in watching substantial round counts going downrange year after year who would say that an off-the-shelf 1911 from any major manufacturer, even the semi-custom shops, is as likely to run as an off-the-shelf gun from the manufacturers that sell pistols to the same militaries and LE agencies that used to use 1911s.

ranburr
06-23-2011, 06:42 PM
I guess I have been lucky. I have owned a lot of them that performed flawlessly with round counts that most people won't shoot in a lifetime. I was fortunate enough to shoot for free on nearly a daily basis for several decades. It sucks to pay for ammo. I guess I must fit into the true enthusiast role, because in keep mine running without issue. The trick is to get a good gun and set it up right from the start. I would take a quality 1911 over an H&K 45 any day of the week. Incidentally, I have run 1911s just fine in Ken Hackathorn classes. He didn't seem to have an issue with his Wilson Combat. The last class I had with him was a couple of yrs ago and he was using a Glock. He stated that was because an airline had nearly lost one of his Wilson's, not because it had suddenly become unreliable.

LittleLebowski
06-23-2011, 06:46 PM
Ranburr, you are not the only person here who has carried a weapon for a living.

What about Todd's statement do you disagree with?

How many rounds do you have through an HK45? Can your 1911 go 10k rounds without maintenance and shoot 2" groups at 25 yards like Todd's HK45 did?

ranburr
06-23-2011, 07:30 PM
Ranburr, you are not the only person here who has carried a weapon for a living.

What about Todd's statement do you disagree with?

How many rounds do you have through an HK45? Can your 1911 go 10k rounds without maintenance and shoot 2" groups at 25 yards like Todd's HK45 did?


I don't own a HK45 and doubt that I will. I did own a USP45 and still own a USPc 357 Sig. H&K makes a good gun. I am not crazy about the trigger in any configuration. As far as the 10K challenge goes, I have no idea. I detail strip and clean my 1911s every 1K rounds or so. They will shoot better than 2" at 25yds. I don't need my guns to go 10K rounds without cleaning, nor do I know anyone that does. Don't get me wrong, it is great that his particular pistol was able to do that. But, in the big picture does it really matter if I and others are willing to do what is needed to keep a 1911 up and running? By that I mean get a good gun from the start, good magazines, then clean and lube it once in awhile. As far the off the shelf comment by Todd, I a agree that out of the box most Glocks, Berettas, etc will perform better than your generic 1911. That is why I have stated that you must set them up correctly from the start. They are not for everyone, just as an HK45 is not for everyone. Truth be told, I now carry plastic most of the time due to capacity issues. I am not even going to tell you what platform I prefer there!

WDW
06-23-2011, 07:36 PM
How anyone can suggest that the 1911 meets the same standards as modern semiautos is beyond me. Might some 1911s run great? Sure. But across the board you cannot possibly think that 50 randomly selected 1911s are going to be more reliable than 50 randomly selected Glocks, SIGs, Berettas, M&Ps, etc.

I cannot imagine there is anyone who is seriously involved in watching substantial round counts going downrange year after year who would say that an off-the-shelf 1911 from any major manufacturer, even the semi-custom shops, is as likely to run as an off-the-shelf gun from the manufacturers that sell pistols to the same militaries and LE agencies that used to use 1911s.
+1. It is just so hard for some people to accept this. The 1911 was state-of-the-art 100 years ago. However, there are just so many better choices for duty use these days it's not even funny. In terms of weight, capacity, maintenance, durability, cost...it just isn't a fair argument anymore. You know what else used ot be state of the art and the choice of thousands of professionals, my Hawken black powder .50 cal, don't see alot of LEO's and military personnel carrying those anymore. I like 1911's. I think they look sexy as hell, feel great, and just ooze history, I shoot them, I own them, but I understand their limitations.

John Hearne
06-23-2011, 07:56 PM
I think that the 1911 suffers from the same problems that the German Shepard line in America did. Too many people making too many of them and departing from the original design. We used to be able to make 1911's that swapped parts with minimal fitting and were reliable. IIRC, the various WW II manufacturers would get together mix parts and the guns would work.

People are fascinated by guns that shoot more accurately than they can. To do this with a 1911 you have to tighten tolerances and you reach the point where reliability is compromised.

I am really intrigued by the Ruger 1911. I suspect that it might take someone who understands manufacturing to figure out how to mass produce a reliable 1911. And, the price is very respectable.

ToddG
06-23-2011, 10:59 PM
I don't think it's simply a matter of too many companies with too many recipes. There are design issues, plain and simple.

How many people put WWII-era 1911s through the kind of shooting that today is considered "regular practice?" Almost none. I was talking to a gun company not too long ago about one of its .mil customers shooting 1,000 rounds a day, five days a week, four weeks in a row through their guns during a train-up. Again, could a 1911 do that? I am sure there are 1911s that could. Is there a manufacturer that could deliver 20 of them and guarantee they all would? I do not believe so.

The design reflects the age in which it was born. Even mass produced metal parts were regularly hand fitted.The labor cost in modern terms would be excessive.

But I do believe John makes an excellent point about expectations. People want a match grade trigger, match grade accuracy, works-in-the-mud reliability, and lifetime durability. While everyone understands that if you put a bunch of stuff in a Glock to make it laser beam accurate you're likely to compromise reliability, the Cult of the 1911 leaves people believing they can have it all with the 1911. Reasonable 1911 owners know otherwise, and know how to keep their guns running, and don't pretend it's as easy as washing your Glock once a year.

Jay Cunningham
06-23-2011, 11:08 PM
People want a match grade trigger, match grade accuracy, works-in-the-mud reliability, and lifetime durability.

And you can get that for $7,000.

SecondsCount
06-24-2011, 11:54 AM
I was wondering how long it would take to have a knockdown, dragged out discussion on 1911s...we made it to June. ;)

There are many good running 1911s out there so obviously they can be built correctly and be reliable. I have several of them, one of them manufactured by a reputable builder, and made it through Todd's AFHF class hiccup free. That being said, I understand the limitations of the gun and treat it accordingly. While I have several polymer pistols, at speed I suck less with my 1911 and have the highest confidence in my ability with them. After 20 years of running the 1911 as my gun of choice I know all about their nuances and how to treat them if they get sick. A properly built 1911 is a solid platform if you choose 45ACP but for many, 9mm is becoming the caliber of choice which opens up a lot of options, and better ones at that. There is no doubt in my mind that a modern pistol such as the HK45 will run longer with less maintenance than a 1911 so no need to convince me.

Todd has a point about round count. The typical 1911 shooter is like the majority of shooters out there. These are the type that shoot less than 500 rounds a year through a gun and for them, the 1911 will probably run "forever" or will get traded off in a few years for the latest whiz-bang model. They rarely train with their guns and the single action trigger is easier for them to shoot. 500 trouble free rounds is a common phrase on the 1911 forums and the lower cost versions are built for this market.

Speaking of lower cost and addressing the subject of this thread. The Armscor pistols would not be my first choice for a quality 1911. The OP was able to get his to run 2000 rounds without failure which is excellent but their history is tarnished with parts breakages and poor build quality. Maybe they are starting to turn things around, only the future will tell.

WDW
06-24-2011, 02:25 PM
And you can get that for $7,000.
I better just get 2 then. I trust my line of credit is still valid:rolleyes:

Chris Rhines
06-24-2011, 03:50 PM
SecondsCount's post echoes my own experiences with the 1911 platform. I've switched completely over to 1911s and 2011s for competition pistols, and will probably do the same for my carry pistols as the budget allows. I didn't make this change on a whim - I've been competing with Glocks and S&W M&Ps for my entire shooting career. But right now, the 1911 is the best choice for me. Nothing else offers the same level of accuracy, reliability, ergonomics, and aftermarket support. All the other major service pistols fall down in at least one of those areas.

I completely agree, however, that the 1911 platform is inappropriate for an agency issue pistol. The maintenance and support requirements are just too high.

jslaker
06-24-2011, 09:49 PM
500 trouble free rounds is a common phrase

150-300 is pretty common on any forum dedicated to nearly any gun. Personally, I'd be fairly pissed if I had problems in that kind of round count; that's less than my regular cleaning interval.

ToddG
06-24-2011, 09:57 PM
150-300 is pretty common on any forum dedicated to nearly any gun. Personally, I'd be fairly pissed if I had problems in that kind of round count; that's less than my regular cleaning interval.

Mine too. :cool:

Rverdi
06-24-2011, 10:34 PM
Mine too. :cool:

Cleaning cycle... that's less than your usual cooling cycle.

jslaker
06-24-2011, 10:52 PM
Mine too. :cool:

Your cleaning cycle is measured in internet forum man years.

ToddG
06-25-2011, 09:58 PM
I'm genuinely happy that my innate laziness about cleaning guns has instead turned into some kind of cool proof-of-reliability thing in people's minds. It doesn't make me any less lazy or irresponsible, but it distracts me from feeling guilty about it. :cool:

orionz06
06-25-2011, 10:30 PM
I'm genuinely happy that my innate laziness about cleaning guns has instead turned into some kind of cool proof-of-reliability thing in people's minds. It doesn't make me any less lazy or irresponsible, but it distracts me from feeling guilty about it. :cool:

Dirty guns are a badge of honor that you pay lots of money and work hard for.

SLG
06-25-2011, 11:36 PM
I'm loving this thread, keep it coming!

Chris Rhines
06-26-2011, 08:04 AM
I'm genuinely happy that my innate laziness about cleaning guns has instead turned into some kind of cool proof-of-reliability thing in people's minds. It doesn't make me any less lazy or irresponsible, but it distracts me from feeling guilty about it. Human progress would be impossible without laziness, greed, and selfishness. Without those three cardinal virtues, we'd probably all still be living in caves and eating carrion. :D

Rappahannock
06-26-2011, 09:12 AM
Carrion eating aside, I'd like to see Mr. Browning's two classics, the 1911 and a Browning High Power, run in a one or two thousand round test, side by side. My personal BHP's have been moded to the point where they would be unfair in such a competition, but I'd like to see a stock one in a sort of mechanical all-steel "Old Timer's Night" at the range.

I expect some plastic Germanic hussy would stomp both in the end, but that is another test entirely.

JM Campbell
06-26-2011, 12:37 PM
I expect some plastic Germanic hussy would stomp both in the end, but that is another test entirely.

Quote of the week!

I think it's a fun thing to see what bottom of the barrel guns can do, just to end the curiosity.

Corvus
06-26-2011, 12:52 PM
At the last pistol course I took a Para LDA made it through without a problem , the guy with the H&K had another pistol before the course was over.

rsa-otc
06-26-2011, 02:10 PM
At the last pistol course I took a Para LDA made it through without a problem , the guy with the H&K had another pistol before the course was over.

Every make and model has their share of duds, some way more than others. You don’t know the history of how the gun was previously treated as well.
S&W coolaide drinker myself. Just saying.

will_1400
06-26-2011, 02:38 PM
I've gotten some trigger time on a Wilson .45 ACP. I can see why a lot of people like the 1911 and I do plan on owning one eventually along with a BHP. However, those will come later on.

DocGKR
06-26-2011, 04:36 PM
A properly set-up 5" .45 ACP 1911 can be run hard without problems. In fact all the 1911's I ever kept for duty/CCW were just as reliable and durable as my 9mm Glocks. The caveat is that it took a lot more time, money, and care to get them there and keep them that way. In addition, if a part needed replacement on a 1911, it usually resulted in a trip back to the pistol smith and an extended wait; with a Glock or M&P, I just grab a part out of the replacement bin and stick it in the pistol--no more than 5 minutes of downtime.

ToddG
06-26-2011, 09:13 PM
The caveat is that it took a lot more time, money, and care to get them there and keep them that way.

Exactly.

R.M.T.
07-02-2011, 01:15 PM
There is no doubt that the 1911 is going to take a lot of time and money but for some of us who are mechanically advantaged it is a lot of fun to work on these gun.

Over the last year i have shot about 4000 rnds through a STOCK Colt 1991A1 with no hicups and was only field striped twice.

Needless to say i love my 1911s and wouldnt trade them ever


so you dont need to spend a lot of money for a really good 1911... Also +1 on the original parts the 1911 has been experimented with a lot over the years and that may contributed to the lack of reliblity. If we went back to all orginal parts but kept some of the modern advances like sights, Beavertail grip safties and so forth and removed the cheap junk parts we would have a very good pistols with good if not great track records.... i thing that the Ruger SR1911 will do great because they have stayed on the path. This just my two cents

jetfire
07-02-2011, 03:04 PM
That's sort of the point though - the average gun owner isn't really a tinkerer any more than the average car owner wants to change the oil in his Camry. But most gun owners aren't ever going to run their 1911s hard enough to really need to maintain them. A 1911, even a crappy one like a Taurus will probably be more than durable enough for the average gun owner, but when you start getting into serious round counts then you start to see the issues with the maintenance performance of the 1911 platform.

Pistol Shooter
07-02-2011, 04:27 PM
That's sort of the point though - the average gun owner isn't really a tinkerer any more than the average car owner wants to change the oil in his Camry. But most gun owners aren't ever going to run their 1911s hard enough to really need to maintain them. A 1911, even a crappy one like a Taurus will probably be more than durable enough for the average gun owner, but when you start getting into serious round counts then you start to see the issues with the maintenance performance of the 1911 platform.


Good point.

FWIW, here's a recent article from the LAV on 1911's.

Military Times June 8, 2011.

"If you’re about to surrender to the 100-year-old call of John Moses Browning, we’re here to help. You can probably count as many Model 1911 configurations as stars in the sky. So to make sense of all the choices, we enlisted a guy who knows his way around the 1911 like Darrell Waltrip knows his way around Daytona.

As the 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta’s primary firearms instructor, Larry Vickers worked in a place that put more than a million rounds a year through 1911s. He’s a founding member of the International Defensive Pistol Association and is a member of the American Pistolsmiths Guild. When he says he’s seen everything that can go wrong with a 1911, I believe him.

“Now, I shoot a Glock,” Vickers tells me. “Make sure you tell guys that the 1911 is a pain in the ass. If they don’t like messing around with the pistol and spending a grand to really get it tuned, then they should forget it.”

Modern pistol designs have made the 1911 obsolete in it’s role as a combat sidearm. It’s finicky and demands constant attention that a warfighter can’t afford to offer. But when it’s tuned and running well, it’s the most accurate pistol out there.

Warnings aside, the pistol’s appeal is strong and romantic. Picking up the pistol feels like shaking hands with John Wayne. It shoots man-sized rounds and, when tuned, it shoots a quarter-sized group at 50 yards.

But the 1911 is not a plug-and-play platform. Even a $2,000 semi-custom 1911 likely will need a pricey trip to a gunsmith for tweaking. Changing out all but the simplest parts will demand expert hand filing and fitting.

“I’ve had guys sell their pistols after taking my 1911 armoring class because they realized the gun just wasn’t for them,” Vickers says.

If you can’t be swayed — and you have the patience and the budget — here’s an idea of what to look for as you step into the world of the 1911."

Link:http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2011/06/08/read-this-before-you-buy-your-first-1911/

I love my 1911's. I've been collecting and shooting them since I bought my first Colt in 1977.

But when push comes to shove, I'll leave them in the safe and use one of my HK pistols.

They go bang every time I press the trigger, are accurate and easy to take down for maintenance.

My two cents worth ...

mnealtx
07-02-2011, 04:33 PM
So, outside of an extractor losing tension, what would be the other parts needing gunsmith fitting?

JV_
07-02-2011, 05:56 PM
So, outside of an extractor losing tension, what would be the other parts needing gunsmith fitting?

Ejector
Leaf Spring
Barrel Link
Slide Stop/Release
Firing Pin Stop

The list could go on for a while...

mnealtx
07-02-2011, 06:09 PM
Ejector
Leaf Spring
Barrel Link
Slide Stop/Release
Firing Pin Stop

The list could go on for a while...

Barrel link and firing pin stop I could see (FP stop needing to be filed to fit and barrel lugs/feet/hood possibly needing adjustment due to a different size link), but certainly the others are field-replaceable by the user, are they not?

JV_
07-02-2011, 06:14 PM
I guess anything is field replaceable with the right tool kit, but ejectors often require a bit tweaking.

You can prefit the slide release and leaf springs.

mnealtx
07-02-2011, 06:20 PM
Thank you for the info.

MikeO
07-07-2011, 12:19 PM
I bought my first 1911 in in 1980, a Colt Combat Commander. All I shot in it was FMJ w the Colt mags and never had a problem for years. Ditto the Govt model that followed. From 84-88 I was issued USAF 1911 match guns. No idea how many times they were rebuilt before I got them. Minor parts breakage from time to time. I didn't fix 'em, the armorer did.

Over the years many more 1911s from box stock to custom (Clark, King, Pachmayer). Some worked better than others.

Since I was w/o a 1911, for 2011 I bought yet another: a SA Mil-Spec. Had everything I wanted (lowered/flared ejection port, throated bbl, beveled mag well, high visibility sights) and nothing I did not (beavertail, ring hammer, flat housing, FLGR, extended/ambi safety, etc). Came w a SS bbl and bushing.

So far, so good. No problems in several hundred rounds w various FMJ and Hornady FTX in the SA OEM (Imbel?) and Metalform 7 rounders. I would bet my life on it for home defense/carry and not loose any sleep over it.

Tamara
07-10-2011, 09:37 AM
And you can get that for $7,000.

Actually, MSRP for the PC9111 is only ~$2500. Be sure not to let the froufrou target pistol get dirty, though... ;)

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