The mystery of the FAMS and the Sig P250

[TCinVA]

...might just be solved:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/11/air-marshal-director-probe-over-gun-scheme/

[LHS]

That explains the ATF raid. The Bureau of Alterations, Tales, Fabrications and Excuses doesn't like other agencies stepping on their turf. Only ATF is allowed to contravene federal firearms law with impunity.

[Bigguy]

That explains the ATF raid. The Bureau of Alterations, Tales, Fabrications and Excuses doesn't like other agencies stepping on their turf. Only ATF is allowed to contravene federal firearms law with impunity.
OK, I will be stealing that.

[Drang]

That explains the ATF raid. The Bureau of Alterations, Tales, Fabrications and Excuses doesn't like other agencies stepping on their turf. Only ATF is allowed to contravene federal firearms law with impunity.

Better lock up your dog...

[Don Gwinn]

So, the FAMS has an FFL for purchasing agency weapons, and the director was purchasing private weapons for himself and others using that FFL, IF the allegations are true?
So there are two issues, really. The gun issue is the use of the FFL, which, is that illegal? Maybe he didn't follow all the rules on those purchases? Allegedly?
The other issue appears to be a simple impropriety/bribery allegation where guns are only involved because the alleged bribes from SIG Sauer were guns instead of season sports ball tickets . . . .do I have this close to right?
. . . . allegedly?

[HCM]

So, the FAMS has an FFL for purchasing agency weapons, and the director was purchasing private weapons for himself and others using that FFL, IF the allegations are true?
So there are two issues, really. The gun issue is the use of the FFL, which, is that illegal? Maybe he didn't follow all the rules on those purchases? Allegedly?
The other issue appears to be a simple impropriety/bribery allegation where guns are only involved because the alleged bribes from SIG Sauer were guns instead of season sports ball tickets . . . .do I have this close to right?
. . . . allegedly?

Regardless of what shenanigans actually went on here, govt agencies don't have FFL's.

[LHS]

OK, I will be stealing that.

I wish I could take credit for it, but I think SoF ran something akin to that in the 90s

[Tamara]

In the letter, Hudson cited claims that an Air Marshal supervisor "may have accepted free firearms that were offered because of the employee's official position in 2010, at a time when such firearms were being tested by FAMS for possible future procurement."

Please tell me this dude did not risk prison for a couple of free P250s. Please say he at least held out for X5s or something cool.

[Stephen]

Please tell me this dude did not risk prison for a couple of free P250s. Please say he at least held out for X5s or something cool.

Maybe he got the Diamond Plate Edition
http://gundata.org/data/guns/Sig-Sauer-P250-Diamond-Plate-13f81264d6d1abe22e6913b2f00663a2a-thumb-0-0.png
That's a real thing.

[Casual Friday]

Please tell me this dude did not risk prison for a couple of free P250s. Please say he at least held out for X5s or something cool.

Well, in his defense they do have the 2 sum frame swap thingy and a pretty sweet DAO trigger. I'm sure he got a caliber xchange kit and a couple mags too.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

[jetfire]

As near as I can piece it together, it goes like this. The supervisor in question was using his FAMS connections with Sig to procure firearms at agency pricing or for free, then selling them or giving them away on the side to colleagues and the director of FAMS. If he was procuring guns under agency auspices and then reselling for them personal use, that's a pretty big naughty.

[Chuck Haggard]

Maybe he got the Diamond Plate Edition
http://gundata.org/data/guns/Sig-Sauer-P250-Diamond-Plate-13f81264d6d1abe22e6913b2f00663a2a-thumb-0-0.png
That's a real thing.

Are they making their own Serpa copy now?

That makes Baby Odin weep, uncontrollably.

[LSP972]

Are they making their own Serpa copy now?

That makes Baby Odin weep, uncontrollably.

Looks like basically the same one HK promotes for the P30/HK45C. I actually got a free one when I bought my bride's back-up P30 in .40 last year; there was also a HK logo'ed knife in the box.

The knife is not bad; she keeps it handy and uses it daily.

The holster I keep around to show folks who ask, what NOT to get…


.

[Don Gwinn]

Regardless of what shenanigans actually went on here, govt agencies don't have FFL's.
No idea. I was paraphrasing this from the Foxnews article:

Poulos is accused of using the agency's federal firearms license and his relationship with gun manufacturer Sig Sauer to obtain discounted and free guns. He then provided them to high-up agency officials for their personal use, according to whistleblower documents obtained by FoxNews.com and interviews with multiple officials with knowledge of the ongoing probe.

It is unclear, based on the allegations, whether he made money off the alleged transactions, and how many guns were involved.
Makes me wonder what the documents actually say.

[JV_]

Maybe he got the Diamond Plate Edition
http://gundata.org/data/guns/Sig-Sauer-P250-Diamond-Plate-13f81264d6d1abe22e6913b2f00663a2a-thumb-0-0.png
That's a real thing.

What's up with the rear sight?

[Stephen]

What's up with the rear sight?

I wondered the same thing. It looks like the rear sight is integral to the extractor and firing pin assembly. And I thought the M&P was a PITA.
http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww162/GrumpyBiker_photos/DSCF5763.jpg
http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww162/GrumpyBiker_photos/DSCF5764.jpg

[Don Gwinn]

Diamond plate is cool, but do they make a Tribal one?

[jetfire]

What's up with the rear sight?

The rear sight on the P250 is actually part of the slide's backplate. It cannot be changed for another sight type. It is by far my least favorite aspect of the P250.

[Don Gwinn]

Does Sig have a rationale that they offer to explain that choice? It seems puzzling.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk HD

[HCM]

Does Sig have a rationale that they offer to explain that choice? It seems puzzling.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk HD

Apparently not since they did away with it on the 320, which uses the P series dove tail & sights.

[JV_]

OK, that settled it, I'll never buy that gun.

[jlw]

So, the FAMS has an FFL for purchasing agency weapons, and the director was purchasing private weapons for himself and others using that FFL, IF the allegations are true?
So there are two issues, really. The gun issue is the use of the FFL, which, is that illegal? Maybe he didn't follow all the rules on those purchases? Allegedly?
The other issue appears to be a simple impropriety/bribery allegation where guns are only involved because the alleged bribes from SIG Sauer were guns instead of season sports ball tickets . . . .do I have this close to right?
. . . . allegedly?

There is no need for an agency to have an FFL. Agencies can received firearms on a letterhead. In fact, so can individual peace officers provided someone with authority within the agency authorizes it, and it is for duty use.

I just may know a guy who is high up in an agency who wrote a letter to himself authorizing himself to receive pistol on letterhead.

My guess is that they were using letterhead to obtain firearms strictly for personal use.


Are they making their own Serpa copy now?

That makes Baby Odin weep, uncontrollably.

Sig has been selling that holster for sometime now.

http://sigsauer.com/StoreProductList/holsters-and-mag-pouches-111.aspx


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx900Hmdrug#t=12

[Tamara]

In fact, so can individual peace officers provided someone with authority within the agency authorizes it, and it is for duty use.

Most abused part of federal firearms law. I think every gun store employee in the land has had the chief of some three-man department show up to buy a duck gun on letterhead.

[Chuck Whitlock]

There is no need for an agency to have an FFL. Agencies can received firearms on a letterhead. In fact, so can individual peace officers provided someone with authority within the agency authorizes it, and it is for duty use.

I just may know a guy who is high up in an agency who wrote a letter to himself authorizing himself to receive pistol on letterhead.

My guess is that they were using letterhead to obtain firearms strictly for personal use.



Sig has been selling that holster for sometime now.

http://sigsauer.com/StoreProductList/holsters-and-mag-pouches-111.aspx


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx900Hmdrug#t=12

Most of SIG's accessories (holsters/lights/sights) are rebranded ITAC Defense products.
http://www.sigsauer.com/StoreCategory/sigtac-accessories-110.aspx

Dave Spaulding did a complimentary review a few years back:
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/technology-and-communications/itac-defense

I think this rendition of the finger paddle is a better execution that the SERPA design, but that's really not raising the bar a whole lot, either.
The one-piece paddle holster is supposed to be not horrible:
http://www.sigsauer.com/SigStore/glock-standard-polymer-holsters-460.aspx

I would probably recommend it over a Blackhawk offering to a tightwad copper.

[BLR]

Most abused part of federal firearms law. I think every gun store employee in the land has had the chief of some three-man department show up to buy a duck gun on letterhead.

Don't they have to give it back to the dept after they retire/move/get fired/etc?

I could see this if it were a G18 or MP5 or something cool and fun. But a shotgun?

[Chuck Whitlock]

Don't they have to give it back to the dept after they retire/move/get fired/etc?

I could see this if it were a G18 or MP5 or something cool and fun. But a shotgun?

If the agency does the buying, no excise tax is collected. but if the individual is personally purchasing the weapon, they are supposed to pay the federal excise tax.
If the agency buys it, and then later sells it to the employee? Not sure how that works out.

NFA rules apply to the fun stuff.

[Tamara]

Don't they have to give it back to the dept after they retire/move/get fired/etc?

I could see this if it were a G18 or MP5 or something cool and fun. But a shotgun?

I'm referring here to the practice of skipping the NICS check, which can be waived with department letterhead stating that "Officer Krupke is purchasing this Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon, serial number XXXXXX, to be used in official duties, and that a records check reveals that the purchasing officer has no convictions for misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence."

I mean, it meets the letter of the law, and is some $8/hr gun shop clerk going to tell the guy in the uniform that he doesn't buy the story that the town of Ditchwater or Stumpjump needs to be protected from a scourge of clay pigeons?

[BLR]

Huh. Seems like more trouble than the nics check.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

[Tamara]

Huh. Seems like more trouble than the nics check.

One would think so, no? :confused:

[ST911]

If the agency does the buying, no excise tax is collected. but if the individual is personally purchasing the weapon, they are supposed to pay the federal excise tax. If the agency buys it, and then later sells it to the employee? Not sure how that works out.

Individual officer purchases are subject to FET. An i/o purchase can't be made through the agency to avoid excise tax. However, if the agency later dispos the gun, they aren't obligated to collect the FET. Otherwise, trades, transfers, or surplus auctions would be a pain.


I'm referring here to the practice of skipping the NICS check, which can be waived with department letterhead stating that "Officer Krupke is purchasing this Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon, serial number XXXXXX, to be used in official duties, and that a records check reveals that the purchasing officer has no convictions for misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence."

I mean, it meets the letter of the law, and is some $8/hr gun shop clerk going to tell the guy in the uniform that he doesn't buy the story that the town of Ditchwater or Stumpjump needs to be protected from a scourge of clay pigeons?

In my experience, cops seek out the letters to avoid dealer transfer fees more than anything. NICS or local background check fees I suppose, too, where applicable.

The various public safety discount programs used to require a bona-fide letterhead, which drove some demand for them. Now, most just want an ID at the point of sale with the 4473 and NICS check.

At some point, enough will abuse the process and it will go away. Some agencies are good about policing themselves and letterheads can be darned hard to get. Others I've seen have pre-printed, fill in the blank forms on the desktop ready for whatever Deputy Dog needs that month.

[LSP972]

Some agencies are good about policing themselves and letterheads can be darned hard to get. Others I've seen have pre-printed, fill in the blank forms on the desktop ready for whatever Deputy Dog needs that month.

This was a huge deal back during the AWB, if one wanted some "large capacity ammunition feeding devices".

Some cops, after watching John Q. Citizen pay a smooth hundred bucks for a "pre-ban" 15 round G19 magazine at a gun show, allowed their avarice to override their better judgement; I was acquainted with several such. I kept waiting for some disgruntled citizen who knew the score to rat them out to the BAT-men… but it never happened. Or, at least, no action was ever taken that I heard of…


.

[Tamara]

This was a huge deal back during the AWB, if one wanted some "large capacity ammunition feeding devices".

Some cops, after watching John Q. Citizen pay a smooth hundred bucks for a "pre-ban" 15 round G19 magazine at a gun show, allowed their avarice to override their better judgement; I was acquainted with several such. I kept waiting for some disgruntled citizen who knew the score to rat them out to the BAT-men… but it never happened. Or, at least, no action was ever taken that I heard of…

To the best of my knowledge, from'94 to '04 there was never a federal prosecution solely for having a "large capacity ammunition feeding device" anyway, so there's that.

[TCinVA]

Don't they have to give it back to the dept after they retire/move/get fired/etc?

I could see this if it were a G18 or MP5 or something cool and fun. But a shotgun?

In Virginia a retiring peace officer can purchase his/her duty weapon(s).

I've found a lot of PD's don't really understand federal firearms laws. I know of an officer who registered his duty sidearm as an SBR...with approval from the administration. They didn't quite understand the regulatory nightmare of having a police officer adding a service sidearm to the registry as an individual.

[TGS]

So, I'm guessing he obviously did something wrong, but it isn't entirely out of line for an agency to purchase a firearm and gift it to a LEO. That part itself isn't illegal....unless the LE and military have been breaking the law for many years and no one cared...

[ST911]

Don't they have to give it back to the dept after they retire/move/get fired/etc?

No. The letterhead is a transfer mechanism only, and does not convey any ownership or regulatory control to the agency in any way beyond it's use on the job. However, if the LEO lived in a ban state and separated, he might no longer be able to possess a certain gun or magazine but the agency has no lawful claim to it.

This came up during AWB 94 when cops bought certain gear and quit. The best prepared had buyers lined up to help them out. Others did what they did. Either way, the job had nothing to say about it.

[Tamara]

I've found a lot of PD's don't really understand federal firearms laws.

"Federal"?

TN city cop asks me "Is this gun registered to you?" and before I realize what I'm doing, I automatically give the answer I've given countless people across a TN gun store counter: "Sir, there's no mechanism for registering firearms in the state of Tennessee. As a matter of fact, it is illegal for the TBI to register firearms..."

"Don't you tell me what's illegal in this state! If you bought this gun legally in the state of Tennessee, you better have registered it! Did you fill out a yellow form?"

"Oh... Yes sir, this gun is registered to me, then."

No point in hashing it out on the side of the road.

[TGS]

"Federal"?

TN city cop asks me "Is this gun registered to you?" and before I realize what I'm doing, I automatically give the answer I've given countless people across a TN gun store counter: "Sir, there's no mechanism for registering firearms in the state of Tennessee. As a matter of fact, it is illegal for the TBI to register firearms..."

"Don't you tell me what's illegal in this state! If you bought this gun legally in the state of Tennessee, you better have registered it! Did you fill out a yellow form?"

"Oh... Yes sir, this gun is registered to me, then."

No point in hashing it out on the side of the road.

A few years ago, my brother adopted a few kids. He was told by Connecticut that his firearms had to be legally registered. So he calls up his local PD:

Bro: "Hi, I'm adopting some kids and was told I had to register my guns in order to do so. I bought them out of state when I was stationed in Virginia. What do I need to do?"

Cop: "Uhh, well, there's actually no such thing as registering guns. But if it makes them feel better, we can put a file in a cabinet at your request with your name on it. Whatcha' got?"

He relayed this to whatever Connecticut's child services division is, and the lady was dumbfounded and said OK.

Man, you gotta love clueless zealots making law at their own behest!

[Chuck Haggard]

I do know a couple of small town local deputies who were on the road to going to federal prison for the letterhead/high cap mag thing back during the AWB, they ended up pleading things down and getting state charges, and losing their LE certification.