Shooting game as spectator sport...

[Tamara]

Comments in the IDPA thread about time spent shooting in a match versus time spent standing around waiting to shoot made me think about something else: How enjoyable is the shooting game in question to watch when you're not shooting?

For example, a benchrest or high power match wouldn't compare very favorably with a paint drying race in the spectator giggles department, while metallic silhouette shooting at least offers some visual indication of what's going on. At the other extreme, heads-up bowling pin matches, with two shooters trying to clear a table faster than the other, are almost as fun to watch as they are to shoot.

How does this translate to the enjoyment of the various action pistol games for you? Is it a factor?

ETA: D'oh! Wrong subforum. Should be in the Competition one.

[JV_]

Moved.

If I can watch really good/clueful shooters run a stage, I enjoy it. If they're not-so-skilled folks, it's not that enjoyable.

[JeffJ]

I like watching the other shooters, especially ones who are decently skilled - it's not unusual for me to talk to them about why they did such and such instead of whatever. I think that's a valuable experience (not sure it applies in IDPA) and helps you get better at the game. Sometimes the newbie is a bit excruciating to watch, but hey, everybody starts somewhere.

[ST911]

I actively watch others run stages to see what techniques and gear they use, and how they work or fail. Seeing the same shooters repeatedly, I also get to see their learning curve (or lack thereof). There aren't a lot of surprises, but some gems do emerge. I also volunteer to RO, paste, and score for the same reasons.

It's more academic than for amusement, and helps pass the time.

[Wheeler]

The best part of IDPA locally has become the socializing aspect. The local .22 Rimfire Challenge (think Ruger Rimfire Challenge toned down to accommodate more kids) has become a lot of fun to shoot, watch and help run. Especially with kids involved. The last bowling pin match I shot had well over 40 shooters show up at an indoor range. I stood around for two and a half hours to get in less than 30 seconds of shooting. That sucked the fun right out of it for me.

[orionz06]

It's really not that interesting unless they are good. Not much can be gleaned, in my opinion, from a Sharpshooter level shooter going through a CoF. Watching a master shooter, yes, but you see way more shooters at SS and worse than ya do better.

[jetfire]

Comments in the IDPA thread about time spent shooting in a match versus time spent standing around waiting to shoot made me think about something else: How enjoyable is the shooting game in question to watch when you're not shooting?

For example, a benchrest or high power match wouldn't compare very favorably with a paint drying race in the spectator giggles department, while metallic silhouette shooting at least offers some visual indication of what's going on. At the other extreme, heads-up bowling pin matches, with two shooters trying to clear a table faster than the other, are almost as fun to watch as they are to shoot.

How does this translate to the enjoyment of the various action pistol games for you? Is it a factor?

ETA: D'oh! Wrong subforum. Should be in the Competition one.

Just watching USPSA or IDPA isn't really a whole lot of fun. I've watched enough matches through a camera lens to the point where I've realized that the action sports aren't really truly spectator friendly. The only matches I've ever shot that have actual people watching the stages are 1) Bianchi Cup, 2) Steel Challenge and 3) ProAm.

Despite the fact that there's less actual "action" in Bianchi Cup than USPSA, it's more spectator friendly because it's actually easy to figure what's going on. The scoring is straightforward, the targets are easy to see, and now on the barricade they have live hit-cameras that show everyone's targets. Steel Challenge in Piru was great, because they had an almost live leaderboard that showed the top 5, and everyone's string times would display on a big timer for the spectators to see. It was garbage in Frostproof because they didn't have any of that.

ProAm is pretty fun to watch because stuff is happening, and plates are falling.

[rsa-otc]

The last IDPA sanctioned match I shot I was squaded with the previous years winner and a multiple time National Champion. It was interesting to see how they approached things.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Technically, watching someone one perform can activate mirror neurons in motor centers that aid in imitating performance. The concept has even hit the gun world as I heard Tom Givens talk about them. So watch someone who is good. We have some championship level folks that I squad with at times.

It is also amusing to watch booboos (like mine - oh, dear). I don't mind watching IDPA or steel.

[LOKNLOD]

Watching others run through would be a lot more interesting if it weren't for all the standing around gabbing in between. Watching a high-level USPSA or 3-gun match presented on video with the action all cut together appropriately with decent camera angles, a-la-Olympics, would be super groovy.

[jetfire]

Watching others run through would be a lot more interesting if it weren't for all the standing around gabbing in between. Watching a high-level USPSA or 3-gun match presented on video with the action all cut together appropriately with decent camera angles, a-la-Olympics, would be super groovy.

And comprehensible scoring.

[ford.304]

I think if you had cameras on the targets to do a live scoring indicator for the hits on target you could make it interesting.

Solo runs of anything are only exciting to watch at the highest levels of the sport. Watching a novice crawl his way around an autocross course isn't exciting either.

Anything head to head can be exciting, no matter who is running it, if they are closely matched.

The most important thing for either is to be able to

a) Show people doing cool stuff normal people can't do
b) Have scoring rules that are visible to the viewer and that can be explained by a simple voiceover

The viewer has to be able to see *how* Alice beat Bob, even if they weren't savvy enough to know why.

[jetfire]

I think if you had cameras on the targets to do a live scoring indicator for the hits on target you could make it interesting.

Bianchi Cup started doing this at one event last year. At least one of the cameras took a bullet, and that's in the accuracy sport. I'd imagine it would get expensive quick to do this at USPSA matches.

[ford.304]

I meant pointed *at* the targets more than back at the shooter :) Although does anyone make a bullet resistant case for a Go Pro?

Can't you set the cameras farther back and use a bigger lens?

[jetfire]

I meant pointed *at* the targets more than back at the shooter :) Although does anyone make a bullet resistant case for a Go Pro?

Can't you set the cameras farther back and use a bigger lens?

You'd be better off using an array of cheap cameras closer to the targets. Never underestimate the ability of shooters to put bullets into things that don't need them. I guarantee if there's a prop at a match that is absolutely not to be shot under any circumstances...it will be.

[PPGMD]

Despite the fact that there's less actual "action" in Bianchi Cup than USPSA, it's more spectator friendly because it's actually easy to figure what's going on. The scoring is straightforward, the targets are easy to see, and now on the barricade they have live hit-cameras that show everyone's targets. Steel Challenge in Piru was great, because they had an almost live leaderboard that showed the top 5, and everyone's string times would display on a big timer for the spectators to see. It was garbage in Frostproof because they didn't have any of that.

Piru is of course going to have a better setup, it was the long time venue so it has a lot more local support. Where as at Frostproof it was my understanding that USA was providing the range to USPSA free of charge. So it was up to USPSA to bring that sort of stuff in, IMO USPSA has dropped the ball. I have my opinions of how USPSA should handle Steel Challenge, and I've spoken it to every AD, and at least one candidate for the USPSA's presidency.

Anyways Bianchi can be interesting to watch, particularly if you know the competitors. The falling plate event is probably the best, it will be interesting this year as at least the Production Super Squad is going to finish on the plates. But last year watching as Tiffany and Jessie were shooting the Mover was interesting.

From personal experience I know the additional pressure from actual spectators was weird, as unlike all my other matches they weren't just my squad mates but people that weren't even involved in the match.

[jetfire]

Piru is of course going to have a better setup, it was the long time venue so it has a lot more local support. Where as at Frostproof it was my understanding that USA was providing the range to USPSA free of charge.

That's a negative, Ghostrider.

[LSP972]

Moved.

If they're not-so-skilled folks, it's not that enjoyable.

Agreed. But its a good teaching aid if you're squiring a newbie through his/her first match and/or exposure to a bit of pressure. You lean over and whisper to him/her "Don't do THAT!";)

.

[ACP230]

I like watching Biathlon. They've been doing good things with cameras on the targets and split screens for quite a while now.
The techniques could be used in other shooting sports, I think.

The most fun event to watch, for me, was pin shooting as done at the Second Chance Bowling Pin Shoot.
Always something going on. Pins flying off tables, or being knocked down on the tables and spinning around instead of falling.
Stopping on the very rear edge of the table. Wobbling on the table but not leaving it.

I developed new ways to screw up a table every match but managed to get better over time anyway.
When I got home and started shooting Bullseye again I had to slooow myself down to shoot the rapid fire stages.
That was interesting.

Got to see Jerry Miculek, Brian Enos, Mas Ayoob, Mitch Ota and other masters of the game show how
it should be done. I also saw most of them leave pins on the table from time to time.

Team shooters with shotguns and buckshot sometimes launched pins clear over the pin tables and the first backstop.
Very entertaining to see even if, like me, you never got to shoot team events.

Lots of food and drink available. Good conversation while waiting around to shoot, or just hanging around.
Trivia contests while then pins were set.
Rich Davis really knew how to throw a match/party.

[TheTrevor]

You'd be better off using an array of cheap cameras closer to the targets. Never underestimate the ability of shooters to put bullets into things that don't need them. I guarantee if there's a prop at a match that is absolutely not to be shot under any circumstances...it will be.

Protecting a camera pointed at a target does not have to be expensive or complicated. TAP Plastics will sell you 4x4x1.25 squares of bullet resistant acrylic sheet for $10 each, less if you buy a bunch at once.

[Slavex]

Svetlana over in Europe covers the stage with cameras to record her and anyone else of interest at major matches she attends. The production value of the end video is amazing and more exciting than most I've seen. But, given her wealth, it's easy for her to do. It would be nice to see a major network invest even 1/10th the budget they put into poker tournaments for IPSC/USPSA matches. It would not be hard to have almost live coverage with good angles on targets, and hit factors/scores being shown as they happen. Proper squading would enable excitement for an entire show no problem. If it was shown after the match a good production team could wrap up a major match in a couple days easy. But again, money.
I shoot a variety of matches and I've found that so long as I had a vested interest in the match, I didn't mind watching the other people shoot. Even when I shoot our local sniper champs, watching the other guys on the Agony stage was enjoyable, and that is 45-60 minutes, minimum, of laying behind a gun with 10 shoot target exposures and unknown number of no shoot exposures. In fact I think it was better to watch than do. But to the non competitor it was probably worse than watching grass grow.
There really is no reason our sports shouldn't be as exciting to watch as say golf or tennis, if produced properly. But it would take a lot of money and good luck to pull it off commercially.

[BaiHu]

....It would not be hard to have almost live coverage with good angles on targets, and hit factors/scores being shown as they happen. Proper squading would enable excitement for an entire show no problem. If it was shown after the match a good production team could wrap up a major match in a couple days easy. But again, money.
......
There really is no reason our sports shouldn't be as exciting to watch as say golf or tennis, if produced properly. But it would take a lot of money and good luck to pull it off commercially.

Maybe my noobness is showing, but why wouldn't Bianchi, IPSC, USPSA, etc be interested in approaching major gun, ammo and apparel manufacturers to front the money in exchange for advertising? This seems like a no brainer to me. Well known shooters could host and walk the viewer through the basics of the rules, well known competitors would draw the crowd. I must be missing something.



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[jetfire]

It's a money issue. The richest handgun tournament in terms of sponsorship dollars is Bianchi Cup. MidwayUSA kicks them something like 100k every year. It would cost another 100k on top of that to do a show on Outdoor Channel with the level of production values you're talking about, and even then the ROI for that 100k isn't great, because ratings on OC aren't awesome. The real trick would be to get a show on Fox Sports 1 or ESPN, but that'll happen when me s*** turns purple and smells like rainbow sorbet.

[BaiHu]

I follow you, but why wouldn't the gun companies, ammo mfrs, etc also kick in?

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[Chris Rhines]

I follow you, but why wouldn't the gun companies, ammo mfrs, etc also kick in?

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They do, to some extent. Most of these companies don't have much in the way of advertising cash to spend on sponsorships, and the ones that do want a better ROI than you get from sponsoring a non-televised match.

[jetfire]

I follow you, but why wouldn't the gun companies, ammo mfrs, etc also kick in?

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The biggest reason is risk. Let's say that I'm Glock, and I have Glock money to market stuff. I know that if I spend X00,000 on print/web/TV advertising that I'm going to reach X-number of potential customers. That's a fairly easy and safe ROI calculation. Now, compare that to spending the same X00,000 dollars to sponsoring the television production of a match match like Bianchi or Steel Challenge, and I have no idea what I'm going to get for my money. The thing is that the current shows that cover those matches do a good enough job and get good enough ratings on OC that it's not worth the risk of investing large amounts of money to get better coverage and exposure in the mainstream market.

Most gun companies don't need "mainstream" appeal, as it were. It would take a sponsor like Chevy, Budweiser, or Red Bull coming on board with the shooter sports to drive that, because they would have a financial interest in attracting their existing extreme sport customers to the shooting sports.

[Slavex]

I would wear a ballerina outfit (except for the shoes) to get Redbull to sponsor a major match. In the US market it amazes me that the big networks are still scared to showcase the shooting sports. Look at the big match they just had over in the middle east, sporting clays. First match ever in Dubai, I think it was, a million in prizes, $350 entry fee that is refunded when you show up for the match, cars, trucks and cash prizes down to at least 30th place. Food, drink, everything free including ammo and targets. All funded by sponsors.

[jetfire]

I would wear a ballerina outfit (except for the shoes) to get Redbull to sponsor a major match. In the US market it amazes me that the big networks are still scared to showcase the shooting sports. Look at the big match they just had over in the middle east, sporting clays. First match ever in Dubai, I think it was, a million in prizes, $350 entry fee that is refunded when you show up for the match, cars, trucks and cash prizes down to at least 30th place. Food, drink, everything free including ammo and targets. All funded by sponsors.

The shotgun sports are completely different than the action sports even in the States - there are cash payouts in the six figures here for shotgun stuff.

[Urban_Redneck]

The tech is easy.

The vocal, if not hysterical, sub set of the general population that sees action shooting as a blueprint to "mass" shooting is what (put) keeps shooting on the tier 3 channels. Advertisers, producers, and networks, are naturally adverse to negative publicity and threatened boycotts.

Case in point- the average city dweller has a deep visceral hate of pigeons and the filth they rain down upon structures, statues, and their best clothes. However, relocate that pigeon to a box in the center of the ring to fulfill it's destiny, and you are barbarians worthy of pickets, demonstrations, and smear campaigns.

In our present culture of outrage, the loudest voice calls the tune.

YMMV

[BaiHu]

Thanks. All of that makes sense.

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[LOKNLOD]

Once, in sheer desperation, I watched golf on TV. It was an hour before I realized the DVR was paused, and I could only tell then because I noticed I couldn't see the grass growing.

If people will watch boring crap like golf and poker on TV, they'll watch anything. People watch whole NASCAR races on TV for hourse. Sorry but as a TV sport NASCAR could just show the 10-minute "highlight" reel and be done with it. I think the root of the real issue the political polarization because guns are involved and it would be very difficult to divorce from the self defense overtones in the action sports.

[BaiHu]

I think the root of the real issue the political polarization because guns are involved and it would be very difficult to divorce from the self defense overtones in the action sports.

Sad but true.

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[Drang]

Once, in sheer desperation, I watched golf on TV. It was an hour before I realized the DVR was paused, and I could only tell then because I noticed I couldn't see the grass growing.
I am SO stealing this!

[NickA]

Re: bridging the "political" gap to get average folks interested in the action shooting sports. I wonder if an event between military branches or LEA's would draw viewers. That way you have "good guys" doing it and making it cool.

[Slavex]

I honestly think if we could recruit some deep purses to fund it and pay for our own, say 10 broadcasts, on a major nextwork, that we'd have people hooked. I really do. Done right (and there are lots of people who can), IPSC/USPSA and even IDPA (which would have the toughest time possibly due to it's more martial appearance), and of course Steel Challenge too. But to do a live event you'd need a producer who understands the sport extremely well, and line editors who do too. So that you could be throwing consumers around the range catching all the best runs as they happen (or shortly) after, the drama of DQs the dark horse upsetting the super squad scores etc. For $10,000,000.00 a year I'd run it....... hahahaha

[jetfire]

I honestly think if we could recruit some deep purses to fund it and pay for our own, say 10 broadcasts, on a major nextwork, that we'd have people hooked. I really do. Done right (and there are lots of people who can), IPSC/USPSA and even IDPA (which would have the toughest time possibly due to it's more martial appearance), and of course Steel Challenge too. But to do a live event you'd need a producer who understands the sport extremely well, and line editors who do too. So that you could be throwing consumers around the range catching all the best runs as they happen (or shortly) after, the drama of DQs the dark horse upsetting the super squad scores etc. For $10,000,000.00 a year I'd run it....... hahahaha

If you really wanted to make it work for TV, you'd have to break the sport up into Am/Pro classes. No one wants to watch Dave the C-class Chiropractor or Caleb the A-class Jerkface run around and not win anything. If you reset the match format to focus solely on the higher end of the field, you could conceivably make the format work for TV.

[Slavex]

With the way major matches are setup and the numbers of good shooters that are mixed with the not so good, I think it could stay just as it is. And throwing in the odd dark horse run from a stage would make it exciting. As well, marketing that it is a competition filled with all levels of shooters vs just pros. I think the odd D class Shooter run would be fun to see, or whatever level, with an overlay of a pros run.

[ford.304]

With the way major matches are setup and the numbers of good shooters that are mixed with the not so good, I think it could stay just as it is. And throwing in the odd dark horse run from a stage would make it exciting. As well, marketing that it is a competition filled with all levels of shooters vs just pros. I think the odd D class Shooter run would be fun to see, or whatever level, with an overlay of a pros run.

I think you could do it, but you'd have to edit it right. You don't want to make people sit through every C class shooter out there. You just want to show enough of them to make the pro shooters look even more impressive, or to create a few storylines for the up and coming shooters.

[LSP972]

All this talk of guns & TV… night before last, the wife and I were watching a re-run of CSI/vegas, and there was… wait for it… a GLOCK commercial. No kidding; showed your basic soccer mom send the kiddies off to school, go to work, go to work out, then she hits the range with her trusty G26 and outshoots the guy in the next lane.

My bride and I both nearly fell off the couch.

Maybe there IS some hope for us…

.

[TheTrevor]

The shotgun sports are completely different than the action sports even in the States - there are cash payouts in the six figures here for shotgun stuff.

I am suddenly regretting my lack of skills development in scattergun-centric activities.

[BaiHu]

All this talk of guns & TV… night before last, the wife and I were watching a re-run of CSI/vegas, and there was… wait for it… a GLOCK commercial. No kidding; showed your basic soccer mom send the kiddies off to school, go to work, go to work out, then she hits the range with her trusty G26 and outshoots the guy in the next lane.

My bride and I both nearly fell off the couch.

Maybe there IS some hope for us…

.

When you see me post about this same ad from NJ, then we'll know we have won.

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