Personal recollections with the M4 carbine.

[breakingtime91]

A friends AR-15 hate got me thinking about my personal experiences with it so I thought I would share what I think the main issue is with the "lack" of reliability so many note from combat theaters.


A little of my background:
I joined the Marine Corps in 2009 right before the "surge of troops" into Afghanistan. I was an 0311 (rifleman) and 0313 (LAV crewman).

I did two deployments (both 7 months) to southern Helmand that spanned the years 2010, 2011, and 2012. During this time I got to intimately know my M4 carbine and what it took to make it run.
Here are the two main problems that I and other troops I knew ran into (none which were the weapons fault):

1) Lack of training on how to properly lubricate the weapon system for a desert environment.
This is the major issue I ran into really quickly when I first arrived in country. I had been told by a SGT to hardly lube my gun because it would cause malfunctions because of the dust it would gather. I quickly learned (during a gun fight unfortunately) that a dry bolt simply does not run and that spitting on the bolt is a ineffective method of making the gun work(I hadn't of thought to bring CLP with me). From that point on I heavily lubed my bolt and carried extra lube on me and promptly spread the word not to listen to that Sgt's knowledge. I still saw this lack of lubrication practice later on in my deployments and to my dismay was usually told I was an idiot for voicing my opinion on the matter. What was worst is I commonly heard a lot of these same guys cursing their bolt action carbines during after action reports.

*its important to note that a lot of us were against heavily lubing our rifles in the states because it would cause us to have to spend more time cleaning our weapons to turn them into the armory. IMO this is a huge flaw in the system, troops should be taught to heavily lube their weapons with a little less emphasis on inspection ready cleaning.

2) Bad magazines.
I was issued six magazine when I first got to my unit, all very old with very old springs. Those promptly got replaced by pmags until it was decided that those were unsat by someone.. So I was regulated to carry the old magazines that often caused double feeds (which was a common theme among my buddies as well). We resolved this by replacing the magazine springs with any newer ones we could scrounge up but its still a issue we should of never ran into.

*also another important note. Even though Pmags are still banned before I left new magazines and extra followers were dished out. So it seems at least the old followers and springs have been addressed for the most part.

Just are just my thoughts on the subject, I hope other people will throw in some of their ideas on why people perceive the gun as unreliable and how its not a hard ware problem, but a software issue.

[LittleLebowski]

1st LAR?

[TheTrevor]

Ah yes, the timeless themes of insufficient lubrication and the critical importance of properly functioning magazines.

And to think that people get hung up on DI vs piston and 193 vs 855... sigh.

[Kyle Reese]

*its important to note that a lot of us were against heavily lubing our rifles in the states because it would cause us to have to spend more time cleaning our weapons to turn them into the armory. IMO this is a huge flaw in the system, troops should be taught to heavily lube their weapons with a little less emphasis on inspection ready cleaning.


When we ran ranges in Afghanistan with U.S Army personnel present, any stoppages they had were usually attributed to painfully bone dry weapons or sketch mags. A liberal application of Frog-Lube CLP to the former usually got them right back up and running.

With regard to bad mags - I procured some PMAGs and kittencanned the POS USGI relics were were issued.

[breakingtime91]

FredM, I feel like this is a common theme, which is sad. I will say one of my least cool moments was trying to make my M4 not a be a bolt action by spitting on it... lol

[Al T.]

Dean Caputo coined the acronym "MEAL" and Pat Rogers has propagated it.

M - magazines. Don't marry then, use good ones.
E - extractor. Use the one with the correct inserts and replace at about 5k RDR.
A - ammo. Not very applicable for LE/MIL folks, but the idea is to use good ammo, not crap.
L - Lubrication. Use it, ARs like to be wet, not dry. I'm more of a use most anything, as long as it's wet.

[alpine44]

A friends AR-15 hate got me thinking about my personal experiences with it so I thought I would share what I think the main issue is with the "lack" of reliability so many note from combat theaters.


A little of my background:
I joined the Marine Corps in 2009 right before the "surge of troops" into Afghanistan. I was an 0311 (rifleman) and 0313 (LAV crewman).

I did two deployments (both 7 months) to southern Helmand that spanned the years 2010, 2011, and 2012. During this time I got to intimately know my M4 carbine and what it took to make it run.
Here are the two main problems that I and other troops I knew ran into (none which were the weapons fault):

1) Lack of training on how to properly lubricate the weapon system for a desert environment.
This is the major issue I ran into really quickly when I first arrived in country. I had been told by a SGT to hardly lube my gun because it would cause malfunctions because of the dust it would gather. I quickly learned (during a gun fight unfortunately) that a dry bolt simply does not run and that spitting on the bolt is a ineffective method of making the gun work(I hadn't of thought to bring CLP with me). From that point on I heavily lubed my bolt and carried extra lube on me and promptly spread the word not to listen to that Sgt's knowledge. I still saw this lack of lubrication practice later on in my deployments and to my dismay was usually told I was an idiot for voicing my opinion on the matter. What was worst is I commonly heard a lot of these same guys cursing their bolt action carbines during after action reports.

*its important to note that a lot of us were against heavily lubing our rifles in the states because it would cause us to have to spend more time cleaning our weapons to turn them into the armory. IMO this is a huge flaw in the system, troops should be taught to heavily lube their weapons with a little less emphasis on inspection ready cleaning.

2) Bad magazines.
I was issued six magazine when I first got to my unit, all very old with very old springs. Those promptly got replaced by pmags until it was decided that those were unsat by someone.. So I was regulated to carry the old magazines that often caused double feeds (which was a common theme among my buddies as well). We resolved this by replacing the magazine springs with any newer ones we could scrounge up but its still a issue we should of never ran into.

*also another important note. Even though Pmags are still banned before I left new magazines and extra followers were dished out. So it seems at least the old followers and springs have been addressed for the most part.

Just are just my thoughts on the subject, I hope other people will throw in some of their ideas on why people perceive the gun as unreliable and how its not a hard ware problem, but a software issue.

What slows the AR15/M4 action down quickly is lack of lubrication between bolt and carrier. I vaguely remember a picture in a TM showing a few drops of CLP introduced into the opening of the carrier key. Was that enough or did you need to generously lube the surfaces where the bolt carrier touches the upper receiver? These will of course attract dust much sooner than the "guts" of the BCG.

Personallly, I only apply lube to surfaces that show direct contact with other surfaces (by the coating being worn off) but I did not have the chance to test that philosophy in the "sand box". There is in my opinion no need to turn the rest of a gun's action into a fly/dust catcher.

Healthy magazine springs and the correct followers are a must for all auto loading weapons. Even a Glock will choke on LE trade-in mags that were carried topped off for ages and had their springs permanently set. The inside of magazines needs to be bone dry and cleaned occasionally to prevent binding of the follower due to attracted dirt or powder residues.

[HCM]

You are spot on re: Lube and Mags.

Re Pmags: I believe they were declared unsat due to incompatibility with the HK M27 IAR/ HK 416 rather than any intrinsic failing of the Pmags themselves.

[breakingtime91]

I had the best results if I lubed almost the whole bolt carrier and the actual bolt(besides the face). It did suck having to clean it after a 6-8 hour patrol but it's worth it when you consider the alternative.

[breakingtime91]

HCM, that is very true. I was with one of the units that first brought the IAR down range but I'm under the impression the new gen of Pmags make up for that.

Side note: lube still applies to the IAR, as a lot of our newer guys figured out.

[HCM]

HCM, that is very true. I was with one of the units that first brought the IAR down range but I'm under the impression the new gen of Pmags make up for that.

Side note: lube still applies to the IAR, as a lot of our newer guys figured out.

10-4 The E mags and the Gen 3 Pmags (which share the exterior dimensions of the Emag) are supposed to be GTG for the HK.

Aftermarket AR mag compatibility can be a little hit or miss. Gen 1 Pmags run fine in my personal an work issued Colts but had fit / locking issues in my LMT and S&W. Conversely, Gen 1 ARC mags ran great in the S&W but wouldn't run at all in my Colts.

[will_1400]

You are spot on re: Lube and Mags.

Re Pmags: I believe they were declared unsat due to incompatibility with the HK M27 IAR/ HK 416 rather than any intrinsic failing of the Pmags themselves.


Wasn't there also a flood of TAPCO and similarly unsat mags running in the system that contributed to the ban? I recall hearing something about that a while back.

[EMC]

Sad that the minimal lube desert myth persists. We got the same bad advice in Iraq 2005. Fortunately not many small arms engagements in those days. GI mags with green followers seemed ok at that time.

[idahojess]

Thanks for your service.
Your account bothers me, since guys like Larry Vickers and Mike Pannone have been stating this stuff for awhile (and I imagine they weren't the first). The knowledge just hasn't trickled into the institutions, I guess. I think your conclusions about lube and mags were spot on.

Mike Pannone: http://www.defensereview.com/m4m4a1-carbine-reliability-issues-why-they-occur-and-why-theyre-our-fault/
Larry Vickers: http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/weapon-lubrication/

[Kyle Reese]

Sad that the minimal lube desert myth persists. We got the same bad advice in Iraq 2005. Fortunately not many small arms engagements in those days. GI mags with green followers seemed ok at that time.

Ran my M4 wet in southern Afghanistan and used good ammunition and magazines. Ran like a kittened ape.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[breakingtime91]

Fred, that's my exact experience as well. Another thing I discovered there was the AK is no where as inaccurate as people say.. What is your experience on that?

[LittleLebowski]

Fred, that's my exact experience as well. Another thing I discovered there was the AK is no where as inaccurate as people say.. What is your experience on that?

I'm not Fred but I strongly agree. I wouldn't feel outgunned by anyone if I was issued a good AK.

[Kyle Reese]

Fred, that's my exact experience as well. Another thing I discovered there was the AK is no where as inaccurate as people say.. What is your experience on that?

My experience as well. In one of our arms rooms we had some lovely Bulgarian milled AK's and they were quite accurate. Issued ammunition was 1965-1966 steel washed Chi-Com ammo. Go figure. A properly zeroed Kalashnikov and skilled end user is a formidable combination.

[TR675]

I have a stamped Arsenal that out shoots my AR's - when and if an Aimpoint is attached and not working itself loose.

I really enjoy the rifle and think most of its perceived downsides are no big deal, but the sights are an issue.

[Tamara]

My carbines lead a comfortable, cake-eating civilian existence by comparison. I still don't get the goofy rumors that float around the internet about how these things malf (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2013/10/stoppage.html) if you shoot them outside of a clean room.