Biomechanics of grip...Haley/Pincus...

[BaiHu]

Just saw this and thought I'd share:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY6gwhj5qpY

[Lomshek]

Overall sounds good. I use the vice reference to explain squeezing the pistol between the hands more than crushing the gun in a game of mercy. Personally I'd be leery of the water squirter reference to avoid misleading some poor SOB to think he's supposed to pump the gun with each shot.

Only other thing is his reference to being smarter than the old school guys. I'd have maybe referenced advancing past the techniques they taught then by evolving beyond their early methods or standing on the shoulders of giants as a little more complimentary to the "old guys" but that's just diplomacy speaking. I got what he meant.

[Wendell]

Published to YouTube on Mar 4, 2014 by NLTShooting (http://www.youtube.com/user/NLTShooting)

This video is part of a NextLevel Training (NLT) affiliate instructor modules as presented in the online course at: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1LAqJ... (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1LAqJmd-tOWTo5r2oEWiWA25Bpkfqw0GXVRAauupJpeI/viewform).
This NLT Affiliate Instructor course is for instructors for best practices when using a SIRT Training Pistol for the NRA Basic Pistol course. Look for additional NLT Affiliate Instructor Courses in the future.
This module is bonus material related to some specific ideas on teaching grip based on ideas from many instructors.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zKzW_Zc1Kk

[jetfire]

Overall sounds good. I use the vice reference to explain squeezing the pistol between the hands more than crushing the gun in a game of mercy. Personally I'd be leery of the water squirter reference to avoid misleading some poor SOB to think he's supposed to pump the gun with each shot.

Only other thing is his reference to being smarter than the old school guys. I'd have maybe referenced advancing past the techniques they taught then by evolving beyond their early methods or standing on the shoulders of giants as a little more complimentary to the "old guys" but that's just diplomacy speaking. I got what he meant.

That video does a good job of taking 5 minutes to explain a 1 minute topic. "Squeeze the gun with pectoral tension, not your hands. Unless you're a mutant like Bob Vogel and close a #3 CoC."

[HopetonBrown]

That video does a good job of taking 5 minutes to explain a 1 minute topic.

One of the BTDT Alias instructors said basically the same thing to me. Haley likes to use big words and makes things sound more complicated instead of speaking plainly.

[Shawn.L]

One of the BTDT Alias instructors said basically the same thing to me. Haley likes to use big words and makes things sound more complicated instead of speaking plainly.

mix that with Pincus and Im amazed this video didnt go on for an hour.
The amount of BS speak makes my head ache. Couldnt make it half way through.
I gotta go dry fire to get it off me.

[FailureDrill]

Haley likes to use big words and makes things sound more complicated instead of speaking plainly.

The more I see his videos and hear his explanations, I've come to the same conclusion.

[Trooper224]

Can you imagine Haley and Nutnfancy in a video together? It would go on forever without anything of relevance being said.

[Lomshek]

Can you imagine Haley and Nutnfancy in a video together? It would go on forever without anything of relevance being said.

I'm not touching Nutnfancy but I haven't seen anything Haley has said that is wrong. I've never met the guy but it seems like he's trying to get the idea across of a given technique and uses multiple explanations to try and reach folks who may grasp one explanation better than another.

Yeah that means some of the stuff goes on a bit but comparing (what seems like) a knowledgeable , experienced instructor to Nutnfancy is just plain mean.

[TheTrevor]

I thought it was a pretty good video, and after watching it again to make sure the lessons were correct and applicable, I sent it to the guy I was coaching this afternoon.

[orionz06]

Seems too wannabe science to waste my time on. I'll get science from scientists.

[Jay Cunningham]

Hey I just met you
And this is crazy
But here's my number
So call me, Haley

And all the other dudebros
Try to train me
But here's my number
So call me, Haley

[John Hearne]

Don't know if this is the best thread for this but... Karl Rehn presented a fascinating lecture on some objective testing he's been doing. He's looked at the "hit" you take when you drop down to a pocket rocket from a full-size pistol using objective numbers. He also spent some time discussing grip strength and its impact on shooting. One of his conclusions was that the classic Gunsite crossed thumbs grip is really advantageous for someone with weak grip strength - especially women. He now encourages a thumbs forward for a default grip but has totally reconsidered the crossed thumbs for new, weaker shooters.

[Jay Cunningham]

the classic Gunsite crossed thumbs grip is really advantageous for someone with weak grip strength - especially women

I came to this same conclusion.

[PPGMD]

Hey I just met you
And this is crazy
But here's my number
So call me, Haley

And all the other dudebros
Try to train me
But here's my number
So call me, Haley

Uhhh..... That is a little weird. And not in a good way.

[hossb7]

Lots of Haley Hate going on in this thread. Full disclosure - I've never taken a class from him (Magpul Dynamics nor Haley Strategic Partners).

Sure, he's a little long winded but it doesn't necessarily mean what he's saying is "wrong" or should be dismissed solely based on WHO he is. Pincus on the other hand...:rolleyes:

I got a lot out of this video of Haley and Ron Avery. They talk about trigger control and touch a little on grip (and keep it straight and to the point):

fastforward to 5:10


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azb3q8wOrV4

[orionz06]

Lots of Haley Hate going on in this thread. Full disclosure - I've never taken a class from him (Magpul Dynamics nor Haley Strategic Partners).

Sure, he's a little long winded but it doesn't necessarily mean what he's saying is "wrong" or should be dismissed solely based on WHO he is. Pincus on the other hand...:rolleyes:

I got a lot out of this video of Haley and Ron Avery. They talk about trigger control and touch a little on grip (and keep it straight and to the point):

fastforward to 5:10


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azb3q8wOrV4

Avery is another guy who seems to use the word science a bit too often... Puts people in classes though.

[BaiHu]

Maybe it's my noobness showing, but WTF was the lesson there? I watched the whole thing and it was blah, blah, blah - I'm following you in the basic trigger press and then "magic" back tension in the right wrist and alakazam Haley shoots operator ninja style with a tighter group.

From this noob's POV, I felt like the video could have been done in half the time just explaining the "back tension" and end the video in 2.5 minutes.

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[orionz06]

Did he use the Scammer Trigger System?

[hossb7]

Maybe it's my noobness showing, but WTF was the lesson there? I watched the whole thing and it was blah, blah, blah - I'm following you in the basic trigger press and then "magic" back tension in the right wrist and alakazam Haley shoots operator ninja style with a tighter group.

From this noob's POV, I felt like the video could have been done in half the time just explaining the "back tension" and end the video in 2.5 minutes.

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From my perspective the point of the video was not the back tension grip. It was the drill that they're illustrating. His commentary about trigger press and grip are supplemental.

Since it seems like there is a consensus that Haley and Avery aren't scientists, talk too much and revolve around very basic concepts, what would be an example of a video of a scientist who posts sub 1 minute videos and can benefit more people?

[orionz06]

Do we need a scientist to teach people how to shoot or explain things? I doubt it. It'd just be nice if people just explained things how they know them rather than trying to trump it up and play the science card. Teaching, lube, gun parts...

"I grip really hard" is an acceptable thing to say, no need to talk about how since Pluto is no longer a planet combined with the price of tea in China multiplied by the angle of the dangle is how hard you should grip the gun.

[BaiHu]

I'm not captain Joe ninja with a gun, but I'm also not a guy that just bought his first hi point and sausage sack. That being said, I am still interested in watching people do a good presentation on anything to do with handguns.

However, there is a middle ground of shooter I believe they (Haley/Avery in this video) are trying to reach (me, I believe) and they're not reaching me.

I see the target and I can do that with a blank sheet of paper. I hear the straight trigger press mantra and I can get that from reading anything gun related on the Internet. But the only thing that was new to me (back tension) was completely glossed over in a way that didn't even intrigue me to go take a class in order to find out more about it.

Perhaps this is way too in depth, but the only 2 reasons you're on YouTube is for business/education purposes or self aggrandizement. This video, IMO, accomplished neither for me.

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[hossb7]

Do we need a scientist to teach people how to shoot or explain things? I doubt it. It'd just be nice if people just explained things how they know them rather than trying to trump it up and play the science card. Teaching, lube, gun parts...

"I grip really hard" is an acceptable thing to say, no need to talk about how since Pluto is no longer a planet combined with the price of tea in China multiplied by the angle of the dangle is how hard you should grip the gun.

You wanted science from scientists so you tell me. Also, what in any of the videos posted were trumped up with the science card? It is simply the word "biomechanics" that rubs you the wrong way? Would, "the study of the mechanical principles of living organisms, particularly their movement" be better? Or just "dont drop the gun when you shoot"? I don't think either of those is as effective as describing something while doing it - which the video I posted does a decent job at.

I didn't watch the Haley/Pincus video in it's entirety but I'll safely assume your anecdote about Pluto is hyperbole.

I'm just a little lost on your train of thought. You posted twice about wanting science from scientists, now you're saying we don't need a science to teach shooting :confused:

[hossb7]

I'm not captain Joe ninja with a gun, but I'm also not a guy that just bought his first hi point and sausage sack. That being said, I am still interested in watching people do a good presentation on anything to do with handguns.

However, there is a middle ground of shooter I believe they (Haley/Avery in this video) are trying to reach (me, I believe) and they're not reaching me.

I see the target and I can do that with a blank sheet of paper. I hear the straight trigger press mantra and I can get that from reading anything gun related on the Internet. But the only thing that was new to me (back tension) was completely glossed over in a way that didn't even intrigue me to go take a class in order to find out more about it.

Perhaps this is way too in depth, but the only 2 reasons you're on YouTube is for business/education purposes or self aggrandizement. This video, IMO, accomplished neither for me.

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But the initial video that started the thread was enlightenment?

The video I posted is a drill video. Period. It has the benefit of talking about trigger press and grip that some shooters might not have been aware of.

[hossb7]

Perhaps this is way too in depth, but the only 2 reasons you're on YouTube is for business/education purposes or self aggrandizement. This video, IMO, accomplished neither for me.

Sometimes we just need to watch cats play the piano. :)

[orionz06]

I'm just a little lost on your train of thought. You posted twice about wanting science from scientists, now you're saying we don't need a science to teach shooting :confused:

It's just more people pulling out things they don't know the meaning to...

I've heard some humble dudes explain the same things without sounding like they scoured a few professional journals for $5 words.

It's also kinda telling that when you talk to people who do work in the science fields mentioned that they can explain the stuff in a way that everyone can understand... They don't seem to care to impress people. Clue?


To expound on what I said... If we are going to involve science and dance with that crap I want it from someone who is qualified in that field. Just like if we are gonna involve French pastries I want a French pastry chef involved, not someone who are crepes this morning and happens to have a lot of YouTube followers. See many of the lube threads here and elsewhere to see how far off the deep end people are willing to go.

[Casual Friday]

If I watch a training video or read something online gun related, one of my expectations is that I will be able to understand it without a Dictionary and Thesaurus. Tam's posts being the exception of course. I also don't want to feel like I'm watching a Tony Robbins speach with all the "setting yourself up for success!" talk.

[orionz06]

If I watch a training video, one of my expectations is that I will be able to watch and understand it without a Dictionary and Thesaurus. I also don't want to feel like I'm watching a Tony Robbins speach with all the "setting yourself up for success" talk.

A master of their craft should have the understanding to present it to all audiences...

[jetfire]

If I watch a training video, one of my expectations is that I will be able to watch and understand it without a Dictionary and Thesaurus. I also don't want to feel like I'm watching a Tony Robbins speach with all the "setting yourself up for success" talk.

Product differentiation is now almost as important as product quality. To some people, it's more important.

[Casual Friday]

A master of their craft should have the understanding to present it to all audiences...


Product differentiation is now almost as important as product quality. To some people, it's more important.

I concur with both of you fine Chaps on both metaphysical and biophysiological levels. I bid you good day....

[BaiHu]

But the initial video that started the thread was enlightenment?

The video I posted is a drill video. Period. It has the benefit of talking about trigger press and grip that some shooters might not have been aware of.

You seem new to me and that's not me digging on you, just an observation that you and I don't know each other. I tend to post links to videos and articles to stimulate discussion around a topic. In this case grip.

I thought the video I posted was for the beginner, but was taught similarly to your video, which is watch this magic trick! And then they pull a quarter from behind your ear. Only difference was your video, IMO, glossed over the only important/intriguing part and my video belabored the obvious (to a group like us), but at least got the beginner a decent understanding of grip.

Quick aside, my mentor is famous for spinning a yarn, building suspension and then giving you the great reveal and you're entranced right up until the next day and then you're like WTF? There was no magic there, he just loves the show. I'm the opposite when I teach.


Product differentiation is now almost as important as product quality. To some people, it's more important.

A very clear sign that the gun community of trainers has gotten big enough to start a Pepsi/Coke war. In a way it's great, because we're closer to mainstreaming and moving away from being an icky minority (in the mind of the tolerant liberal) that should be crushed due to our radical beliefs.

ETA: I thought the Seeklander video also had some gems for a beginner, but it took me multi tasking to get through it, because it was so damn long.


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[jetfire]

There's an interesting conundrum in Youtube videos. Videos longer than 2-3 minutes don't usually get watched the whole way through in a single sitting. Videos that are 2-3 minutes long sometimes have to over-simplify information. I'm honestly of the belief that if you're presenting a complex topic, you're better breaking it up into several shorter videos than one long one.

[BaiHu]

I agree, because most youtube watching by adults, I would guess, are in between "stuff" they need to do. Even when I have big blocks of time free I spend more time deciding whether a ten minute video is worth watching than actually watching it.

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[orionz06]

There's an interesting conundrum in Youtube videos. Videos longer than 2-3 minutes don't usually get watched the whole way through in a single sitting. Videos that are 2-3 minutes long sometimes have to over-simplify information. I'm honestly of the belief that if you're presenting a complex topic, you're better breaking it up into several shorter videos than one long one.

Shorter sessions for sure, as well as limiting it to things people *actually* know about.

[JV_]

I wish Surf's (http://pistol-forum.com/member.php?2430-Surf) videos were still on YouTube, they were a lot more informative.

[BaiHu]

I wish Surf's (http://pistol-forum.com/member.php?2430-Surf) videos were still on YouTube, they were a lot more informative.

Agreed and I never cared how long his were, because they were so informative.

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[JHC]

Don't know if this is the best thread for this but... Karl Rehn presented a fascinating lecture on some objective testing he's been doing. He's looked at the "hit" you take when you drop down to a pocket rocket from a full-size pistol using objective numbers. He also spent some time discussing grip strength and its impact on shooting. One of his conclusions was that the classic Gunsite crossed thumbs grip is really advantageous for someone with weak grip strength - especially women. He now encourages a thumbs forward for a default grip but has totally reconsidered the crossed thumbs for new, weaker shooters.

I would like to see a lot of information on Karl Rehn's findings. I informally compare my G17, 19, 26 shooting constantly looking at the different performance achievable.

The crossed thumb thing is interesting. I've got to look into that. It's been thumbs forward so long; I've forgotten how I used to shoot semis.

[nycnoob]

Don't know if this is the best thread for this but... Karl Rehn presented a fascinating lecture on some objective testing he's been doing. He's looked at the "hit" you take when you drop down to a pocket rocket from a full-size pistol using objective numbers. He also spent some time discussing grip strength and its impact on shooting. One of his conclusions was that the classic Gunsite crossed thumbs grip is really advantageous for someone with weak grip strength - especially women. He now encourages a thumbs forward for a default grip but has totally reconsidered the crossed thumbs for new, weaker shooters.

I would be interested in hearing more about the studies with pocket guns. On youtube there is only one video by Karl Rehn but it does not appear to be the same guy.

[peterb]

There's an interesting conundrum in Youtube videos. Videos longer than 2-3 minutes don't usually get watched the whole way through in a single sitting. Videos that are 2-3 minutes long sometimes have to over-simplify information. I'm honestly of the belief that if you're presenting a complex topic, you're better breaking it up into several shorter videos than one long one.

IMO, video is best used for things that have to be SHOWN. Several minutes of talking heads is a waste. I'd much rather read an article with embedded short video clips than try to sit through a video that's mostly someone talking into the camera.

[Cheap Shot]

IMO, video is best used for things that have to be SHOWN. Several minutes of talking heads is a waste. I'd much rather read an article with embedded short video clips than try to sit through a video that's mostly someone talking into the camera.

Strongly agree

[jthhapkido]

Don't know if this is the best thread for this but... Karl Rehn presented a fascinating lecture on some objective testing he's been doing. He's looked at the "hit" you take when you drop down to a pocket rocket from a full-size pistol using objective numbers. He also spent some time discussing grip strength and its impact on shooting. One of his conclusions was that the classic Gunsite crossed thumbs grip is really advantageous for someone with weak grip strength - especially women. He now encourages a thumbs forward for a default grip but has totally reconsidered the crossed thumbs for new, weaker shooters.

I'd love to hear more about this also---particularly because what I've seen in classes is that it makes things worse.

Maybe I'm thinking about a different grip. :)

There are some people out there with weak grips that simply won't ever practice much, so teaching them technique that will result in optimal performance given sufficient practice is not nearly as important as teaching them a technique that'll be decent enough for them to get shots on target while being safe when they don't practice much. So---if the crossed thumbs grip can help those folks, I'd like to hear more!

Like I said, though, particularly with smaller pistols (9mm in a subcompact size, as an example), that's not what I've seen---or when you say "pocket pistols" are you meaning tiny .32s and .22s? Either way, I'd like to hear more if you've got the information to share.

[HopetonBrown]

They announced a Haley pistol class in my area. I downloaded the .pdf outlining the class. It was chock full of so much ridiculous psuedo science jargon it actually put us all off the class and we didn't go. I was going to reference some of the words used for this thread, so I went to his website to read the .pdf again. They've since removed most of the offending words.

[Lomshek]

They announced a Haley pistol class in my area. I downloaded the .pdf outlining the class. It was chock full of so much ridiculous psuedo science jargon it actually put us all off the class and we didn't go. I was going to reference some of the words used for this thread, so I went to his website to read the .pdf again. They've since removed most of the offending words.

I think in spite of that I'd have gone (and will if I get the chance). I've never heard bad things said about him as an instructor and the training video snippets I've watched have all had solid info in a well presented (if sometimes wordy) manner.

[hossb7]

Another excellent video on grip and hand placement while shooting. Pseudo-science and Rob Pincus were not involved in the making of this film ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcVHykd3zTU

[BaiHu]

Funny you should post that video, because I just saw that recently too.

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[PPGMD]

I honestly think that too many people concentrate on the ONE WAY.

I don't think about recoil control, it is something that happens automatically the gun comes back on target. My grip technique is very similar to Bob Vogel's, and I don't even lean over that much. I know people that use Haley's technique while leaning over as if they were in a Cat 5 hurricane and it works well for them. We are all just a little different that one technique may not work for every person.

ETA: The more I've gotten into this "there is no one way" mood. The more I've realized that Enos is right. Shooting is a personal journey. I don't quite agree with this idea that we are a third party bystander during a match (I think that high speed video does a better job maybe that view will change in another decade). But the idea that you need to spend time developing your own technique that works best for you rings true to me more and more.

[Lomshek]

Another excellent video on grip and hand placement while shooting. Pseudo-science and Rob Pincus were not involved in the making of this film ;)


Rock solid except for the cameraman downrange at 3:40. Kind of reminded me of this.

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/FXhummel1-Tactical-Response-Photographer-Downrange.jpg

I've never met Kyle or Travis and everything I've seen about them says they're both great trainers but one can't hold that video up as a great example while mocking Haley for using words above his pay grade.

[hossb7]

Funny you should post that video, because I just saw that recently too.

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I've been following his TriggerTimeTV videos for a while. Kyle is good people.

[hossb7]

Rock solid except for the cameraman downrange at 3:40. Kind of reminded me of this.

[IMG]http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/FXhummel1-Tactical-Response-Photographer-Downrange.jpg[IMG]

I've never met Kyle or Travis and everything I've seen about them says they're both great trainers but one can't hold that video up as a great example while mocking Haley for using words above his pay grade.

I dont think it's nearly the same thing. camera man looked to be about 45* off whereas the tactical response dude is almost dead center. I'm not saying it's the best placement but let's not get sidetracked on this thread.

[PPGMD]

Rock solid except for the cameraman downrange at 3:40. Kind of reminded me of this.

Seriously?!? The gun was clearly unloaded, and at no point was he pointing the gun at or even near the camera man.

[TheTrevor]

Tortured syntax and overblown use of terms are just part of the package with younger ex-mil guys, in my experience. It rarely has anything to do with whether they have good lessons to pass along or if they're good at teaching.

I find it's better to look past the superficial stuff and ask instead whether I can learn something from someone, and whether that's worth the price of admission. Haley and Defoor are both on my list of folks from whom I'd like to take at least one class, and I will openly share that I am setting aside some negative impressions of personal conduct with one of those two, because it has no impact on whether learning will occur.

If someone is a complete oxygen thief, or is great on some topics but out of their lane on others, I want to know that so I can spend my money effectively. Otherwise, I think it's a bit silly to insist on this zero-defect culture of video shoots where everyone uses polished, rehearsed lines and never ever forgets to show clear to the camera.

[BaiHu]

Otherwise, I think it's a bit silly to insist on this zero-defect culture of video shoots where everyone uses polished, rehearsed lines and never ever forgets to show clear to the camera.

Great point.

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[Mr_White]

ETA: The more I've gotten into this "there is no one way" mood. The more I've realized that Enos is right. Shooting is a personal journey. I don't quite agree with this idea that we are a third party bystander during a match (I think that high speed video does a better job maybe that view will change in another decade). But the idea that you need to spend time developing your own technique that works best for you rings true to me more and more.

I was shocked the first time I read the introduction by Rob Leatham in Practical Shooting: Beyond Fundamentals. He said that the way he and Brian Enos shot three years ago is different from how they shot last year and that was different from how they shot when he wrote the introduction and that would be different than how they shot a few years in the future. Now it makes sense to me. It's not about clinging to one true technique; it's about the journey, the struggle, the study, the effort, the paying attention and noticing everything and learning from everything. That's what makes someone really sharp - wallowing in the art.

[Clobbersaurus]

It's not about clinging to one true technique; it's about the journey, the struggle, the study, the effort, the paying attention and noticing everything and learning from everything. That's what makes someone really sharp - wallowing in the art.

Damn man, that's good stuff. Signature line material right there.

[jetfire]

I was shocked the first time I read the introduction by Rob Leatham in Practical Shooting: Beyond Fundamentals. He said that the way he and Brian Enos shot three years ago is different from how they shot last year and that was different from how they shot when he wrote the introduction and that would be different than how they shot a few years in the future. Now it makes sense to me. It's not about clinging to one true technique; it's about the journey, the struggle, the study, the effort, the paying attention and noticing everything and learning from everything. That's what makes someone really sharp - wallowing in the art.

I can say for 100% fact that the way I shoot, hold a gun, reload, and stand is significantly different now than it was just two years ago, and it's not because I've gotten worse.

[Lomshek]

Otherwise, I think it's a bit silly to insist on this zero-defect culture of video shoots where everyone uses polished, rehearsed lines and never ever forgets to show clear to the camera.

I agree and that was my point in posting the downrange camera man photo and comment. Haley's attempt at using different words to explain a concept have no more bearing on his abilities or instruction than the fact that Defoor (who was help up as an example of all that is right with video instruction) went hot with a camera man downrange have with his.

[orionz06]

Tortured syntax and overblown use of terms are just part of the package with younger ex-mil guys, in my experience. It rarely has anything to do with whether they have good lessons to pass along or if they're good at teaching.

I find it's better to look past the superficial stuff and ask instead whether I can learn something from someone, and whether that's worth the price of admission. Haley and Defoor are both on my list of folks from whom I'd like to take at least one class, and I will openly share that I am setting aside some negative impressions of personal conduct with one of those two, because it has no impact on whether learning will occur.

If someone is a complete oxygen thief, or is great on some topics but out of their lane on others, I want to know that so I can spend my money effectively. Otherwise, I think it's a bit silly to insist on this zero-defect culture of video shoots where everyone uses polished, rehearsed lines and never ever forgets to show clear to the camera.

I have a different take. If the dude has to use superficial words that exceed his background why is he choosing to do so? Lack of confidence in his material? The Defoor video was solid. I could name a list of guys who wouldn't try to play doctor in a video... Why not just train with them and pass on those who try to play it up?