Pocket Carry Competition Association

[LGChris]

There's a new competition league starting up here in North Carolina: the Pocket Carry Competition Association (http://pocketcarrycomp.com/). This is the brainchild of Dean Brevit, the owner of Caswell Ranch (http://www.caswellranch.com). The idea is to give people who carry small "pocket pistols" or revolvers an action shooting league in which to hone their skills. I'm not very familiar with the rules for IDPA BUG matches, but from what others have said, the PCCA rules are a bit different. Currently only handguns with a barrel length of 3.12 inches or less are allowed, so we're not talking compact Glocks and M&Ps; it's really meant to be a place for those 2" revolvers, pocket .380s and similar guns.

I shot at the first match last Saturday with my Kahr MK9, and was sufficiently humbled by the experience. I blogged about it here (http://bullcitydefense.com/2011/02/26/pocket-carry-and-being-last-place/). It sounds like there's already some interest from a couple of other ranges around the country, and I believe Dean said a gun rag or two is planning a story on it. I think PCCA fills a pretty significant gap in what the other action shooting leagues out there are offering and I think a lot of people could benefit if this took off.
Chris

[EricP]

Sounds like fun.

One of the clubs that I shoot IDPA at runs an annual BUG match. It was interesting to see the usual high placing shooters at the back of the pack. You could really tell who practiced with that J-frame or small auto.

[Savage Hands]

It's too bad they exclude compact Glocks or M&P's...

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/da55d678.jpg

[JodyH]

I run my pocket carry Kahr PM9 in a few matches every year, including reloading from a pocket carrier.
It's quite fun and with some dedicated practice you can surprise a lot of shooters.
I've run a sub-7 FAST from a pocket (including a pocket reload) with my PM9.
I design the stages for our local CCW matches and try to make them low capacity friendly for pocket guns.

[LGChris]

It's too bad they exclude compact Glocks or M&P's...


It's not that Glocks and M&Ps are specifically not allowed, but their barrel length is over the limit. It seems that they determined 3.12" is about the cutoff that generally distinguishes "pocket" type tiny semi-autos and snubby revolvers from the larger compacts like the G26 and the like. My other carry piece is an M&P compact and though its barrel length is not much longer than my Kahr's, the difference in shooting the two is night and day. And that's kind of the idea... bring out those harder-to-shoot guns and put yourself to the test.

Chris

[MTechnik]

Rats, that puts my PPS over the limit with its luxurious 3.2" barrel!

[Savage Hands]

It's not that Glocks and M&Ps are specifically not allowed, but their barrel length is over the limit. It seems that they determined 3.12" is about the cutoff that generally distinguishes "pocket" type tiny semi-autos and snubby revolvers from the larger compacts like the G26 and the like. My other carry piece is an M&P compact and though its barrel length is not much longer than my Kahr's, the difference in shooting the two is night and day. And that's kind of the idea... bring out those harder-to-shoot guns and put yourself to the test.

Chris


That's a shame, I don't carry or own any mouse guns.

[fuse]

It's too bad they exclude compact Glocks or M&P's...

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/da55d678.jpg

Yeah. To this league that beast of a cannon is a tricked out open race gun.

[Gremlin Montana]

That's a shame, I don't carry or own any mouse guns.

There are plenty of places to shoot full size guns, finding a match where the limits of a pocket gun still allow you to be competitive? That is much rarer, even IDPA BUG matches have people show up and shoot Glock 19s.

[jar]

even IDPA BUG matches have people show up and shoot Glock 19s.

Not legally. The G19 has a 4.01" barrel, and the limit is 3.8". That said even a 26 is a huge advantage over a typical pocket gun.

[Thrill]

So far I've read a lot of posts here, and in this particular thread especially, about pocket carry semi-autos,... But I don't see anyone here mentioning Kel-Tecs at all so far,... Doesn't anyone else like or use them?

The first semi-auto I got was a Kel-Tec P-11: With it's 9mm power, 3.1" barrel, standard 10 or optional 12 round magazine, 20 oz fully loaded weight, $250 price tag, and being Made-in-USA, I think it's an AWESOME CCW and/or BUG. (HA I learned what "BUG" stands for!)
I did have 3 or 4 "Fail-to-eject" jams during the first 200 round break-in, but it has performed flawlessly ever since (clean or dirty) - about 1200 more rounds so far. And I haven't done any of the special ramp-polishing or other tweaks. I have a little trouble keeping all the hits inside a 6" circle at 25 yards, but at 7 yards, I can consistently put 45 of 50 inside 3". (I know, I still have a LONG way to go, but remember I'm a n00b and I'm just learning!) I'd like to see a "pro" dance with her once. Maybe I'll take the 2000 round challenge and see how she does,...
Any comments will be appreciated! Thanks!

[Gremlin Montana]

I own two PF9s and like them a lot. However, they are not nearly as robust as a full size gun. It is the only 9mm that fits in my pocket. :) The reason I own two? The first one had to go back to the factory at ~3k rounds because the take down pin walked out and the frame cracked when the slide came back and sheared the head of the pin off. It's a free repair, but it takes eight weeks to get the gun back.

[Thrill]

@ Gremlin,... WOW! 8 weeks! DANG!

[LittleLebowski]

It boggles the mind that the Walther PPS is ineligible.

[MTechnik]

It boggles the mind that the Walther PPS is ineligible.

it is by .09 inches... I wonder if a smith can trim that off and not affect the function...

[LGChris]

I know there was a lot of discussion about the barrel length when the rules were being written. And with this being a brand new league, I doubt it's set in stone forever. The original limit was 3" even, but it was discovered that some 3" guns actually had bbl lengths of just a hair over 3", so the limit was set at 3.12". Gotta set it somewhere, I guess, and that's inevitably going to exclude something that somebody wants to shoot in a match.
Chris

[ToddG]

If they allow the PPS, the PPS will probably be the gun to have for the gamers.

And before you tell me there are no gamers, (a) look at who started the league and (b) that's what we said when IDPA first started, too.

[MTechnik]

If they allow the PPS, the PPS will probably be the gun to have for the gamers.

And before you tell me there are no gamers, (a) look at who started the league and (b) that's what we said when IDPA first started, too.

It is a nice shooting gun for one that is so tiny. It's why I have it. I didn't want to carry a gun I'd never shoot because my hand would hurt after 20 rounds.

[fuse]

If they allow the PPS, the PPS will probably be the gun to have for the gamers.

And before you tell me there are no gamers, (a) look at who started the league and (b) that's what we said when IDPA first started, too.

Bro I always owb carry my Glock 34 concealed with a fishing vest bro, it says practical-tactical right on the flyer bro.

[Joe in PNG]

If they allow the PPS, the PPS will probably be the gun to have for the gamers.

And before you tell me there are no gamers, (a) look at who started the league and (b) that's what we said when IDPA first started, too.

That reminds me- does anyone make a comp for the Baby Browning?

[JulieG]

There's a new competition league starting up here in North Carolina: the Pocket Carry Competition Association (http://pocketcarrycomp.com/). This is the brainchild of Dean Brevit, the owner of Caswell Ranch (http://www.caswellranch.com). The idea is to give people who carry small "pocket pistols" or revolvers an action shooting league in which to hone their skills. I'm not very familiar with the rules for IDPA BUG matches, but from what others have said, the PCCA rules are a bit different. Currently only handguns with a barrel length of 3.12 inches or less are allowed, so we're not talking compact Glocks and M&Ps; it's really meant to be a place for those 2" revolvers, pocket .380s and similar guns.
Chris

Thanks for sharing! The site was down when I clicked on the link. Is this a membership based organization? Do you know if there are plans for regional/national events or is the focus on grass roots right now?
Thanks!!

[KeeFus]

... Do you know if there are plans for regional/national events or is the focus on grass roots right now?
Thanks!!

Julie,

Here is the link: http://pocketcarrycomp.com/default.aspx

It is a grass roots organization here in NC that seems to be getting a lot of support. There are plans for it to expand.

[JulieG]

Julie,

Here is the link: http://pocketcarrycomp.com/default.aspx

It is a grass roots organization here in NC that seems to be getting a lot of support. There are plans for it to expand.

Thanks! I will check it out.

[Wheeler]

I'm liking the initial setup and guidelines in the rulebook. My local club bases the majority of their stages from the NRA/ILA Armed citizen. I think this would be a perfect tangenital venue that is a tad more practical for those of us that carry a pocket blaster.

Wheeler

[KeeFus]

I SO IDPA matches at Caswell Ranch and have spoken with Dean about PCCA. The concept is that most of us dont carry our G-17, G-34, or SW Pro around with us...we carry a J-frame or pocket .380 etc.

He has said there has been interest outside NC and I know he wants it to grow. Any of you guys that want it in your area should contact Dean through his website:

http://caswellranch.com/contactus.aspx

[old frank]

Hi,First Post here!

I just read through the PCCA Rule Book and it is something I have an interest in.

I have carried a small J frame or pocket pistol as a back-up or as a primary when loafing around the house and enjoy shooting them.

I would like to see this take off and see some matches within reasonable driving distance.
I have actually shot some Bug Matches that allowed pocket carry for experienced shooters. I would not mind this in PCCA either,but I understand the objections.

[Wheeler]

Hi,First Post here!

I just read through the PCCA Rule Book and it is something I have an interest in.

I have carried a small J frame or pocket pistol as a back-up or as a primary when loafing around the house and enjoy shooting them.

I would like to see this take off and see some matches within reasonable driving distance.
I have actually shot some Bug Matches that allowed pocket carry for experienced shooters. I would not mind this in PCCA either,but I understand the objections.

old frank,

shoot me a PM when you have the time. I think we might be in the same general area and might be able to work something out for a provisional match or at least something exploratory.

wheeler

[jlw]

The smallest pistol I carry is a Glock 26. I was initially very interested in this league, but with the 26 being excluded, I am less interested.

[Badfish25]

Next time I am around that area I will have to try it out it looks like a lot of fun. I usually shoot my Glock 26 in local IDPA match's, and it would be nice to have a somewhat level playing field for my Kahr PM9 (6 rounds until you have to reload really kills your time)

[DonovanM]

LOL, a shooting competition for people who don't like to carry guns? What's next, hot dog eating contests for vegetarians? :D

Not hating, just think it's funny :p

[Chuck Haggard]

We had a BUG match last month after our normal IDPA match.

I shot my J frame since it's what I am using as a BUG now since the G26 got too heavy for my ankle (arthritis is a bitch).

The guys running G26s had a huge advantage in that match. I could care less, getting to shoot various courses of fire with what I actually carry is worth not trying to game the thing for my ego.

[jar]

We scored semiauto and revolver separately in our last BUG side match. Many shooters, myself included shot both. It was MUCH easier with my M&P 9c than 442.

[KeeFus]

Theres a couple new divisions (revolver & semi auto) now that include barrels 3.13-3.65 inch length. With these new additions I would think this would satisfy those folks that like the slightly larger pistols, referred to as "discreet carry" in the rule book.

I have just gotta shoot this!!!

page 3 rule book. http://pocketcarrycomp.com/Documents/PCCA.Rules.PAGES.pdf

[Thrill]

This looks great! Thanks for the link. Can't wait till there's one near us!


Theres a couple new divisions (revolver & semi auto) now that include barrels 3.13-3.65 inch length. With these new additions I would think this would satisfy those folks that like the slightly larger pistols, referred to as "discreet carry" in the rule book.

I have just gotta shoot this!!!

page 3 rule book. http://pocketcarrycomp.com/Documents/PCCA.Rules.PAGES.pdf

[Caswell Ranch]

Hi All,
As Keith noted a rule change was made this weekend, also a change was made with regard to height limit for guns in the pocket division (auto's only) a pistol has to be 4.6" or less to run in pocket, over 4.6 and it's in dicreet carry.

This was done in part to keep things as level as I can make it, an XD sub with a 3" or a 3" 1911 has a leg up on the guy running a LCP or Kel-Tec. Also lets people run the G26/27, Walther PPK/s, Sig 230/239, Bersa 380 etc.

Regards,
Dean
Owner of Caswell Ranch and PCCA. looking forward to your comments (I think).

[Caswell Ranch]

Forgot to add that "discreet carry division" also permits the use of K and L frame revolvers with 3" or less barrels, along with the M&Pc, G26/27, Walther PPK/s etc in the auto DC Division.

[Caswell Ranch]

Just got myself a Sig P290FE for PCCA, fun gun.

Regards,
Dean

[SmokeJumper]

Sounds like a lot of fun and a great training experience for BUG carry.

[Caswell Ranch]

Another persons view of PCCA.

http://spydersmom.wordpress.com/2011/02/27/pocket-carry-competition-match/

[Caswell Ranch]

The Next PCCA match at Caswell will have a low light and no light stage, good practice as bad this happen at night, better to find out what works in a match than at a gas station late one night.

Things to think on,
Night Sights Y/N
Laser Y/N
Carry a Flashlight Y/N
Does my carry gun run 100% Y/N
at the matches so far we see some guns that fail at the same round count (3 shooters,3 guns of the same type and model all fail at 400-425rds with the same problem).
At PCCA we are keeping track of such things.

[MTechnik]

Is the theme "back-up-gun"? or "only carry gun"?

If it is BUG themed, have you started a round with a single shot from a "main carry weapon" (glock 19) followed by dropping the brick (presuming last shot, or fatal failure) and drawing the snubby/micro-compact?

[Caswell Ranch]

You could say back-up only but for many the small guns are the carry gun. At a monthly IDPA match I asked most of the shooters what they carry, all said " not my match gun" ,all carry (that I asked) a J-frame, Kel-Tec, M&Pc or some other type of pocket or sub-compact. Look at CCW stats, I have asked over 200 local people and only a few carry a full size gun.

Regards,
Dean

www.pocketcarrycomp.com

[Thrill]

You could say back-up only but for many the small guns are the carry gun. At a monthly IDPA match I asked most of the shooters what they carry, all said " not my match gun" ,all carry (that I asked) a J-frame, Kel-Tec, M&Pc or some other type of pocket or sub-compact. Look at CCW stats, I have asked over 200 local people and only a few carry a full size gun.

Regards,
Dean

www.pocketcarrycomp.com

Me Too!
Glock 17 at range, KelTec P11 or P3AT for CCW.

[Chuck Haggard]

Does my carry gun run 100% Y/N
at the matches so far we see some guns that fail at the same round count (3 shooters,3 guns of the same type and model all fail at 400-425rds with the same problem).
At PCCA we are keeping track of such things.

I'd be interested in hearing what gun that was.

[Wheeler]

I just ordered and received some IPSC targets. I'm going to talk to a couple of the local ranges and see what it will take to setup some of these matches on a provisional basis in NE Ga.

Anyone with some suggestions, I would be MOST grateful. I've operated as an SO for years in IDPA, and as an Asst MD for a couple of years, but never started a match from the ground up.

Wheeler

[Tamara]

I cannot tell you how relieved I was to go look at the rules and see that this doesn't actually involve drawing from the pocket. :o

[JodyH]

I cannot tell you how relieved I was to go look at the rules and see that this doesn't actually involve drawing from the pocket. :o
Why is that?
If a proper holster is utilized, pocket draws are as safe as any other draw.
I've seen more fumbled draws and dropped guns from race holsters in IPSC matches than I have unsafe/fumbled draws from pocket carry in our local CCW matches in which we allow pocket carry (with MD/RO approval).

[Tamara]

Why is that?

Because it seems a whole lot easier to point a gun at your thigh while fishing it out of a trouser pocket.

I mean, theoretically, a horizontal shoulder rig is no more dangerous than any other holster, right? So why aren't those allowed at matches?

[JodyH]

Because it seems a whole lot easier to point a gun at your thigh while fishing it out of a trouser pocket.

I mean, theoretically, a horizontal shoulder rig is no more dangerous than any other holster, right? So why aren't those allowed at matches?
How many pocket holsters do you own?
How familiar with pocket carry and draw techniques and safety are you personally?
I think the majority of your fears are based on ignorance (that's not a personal attack on you).
I run into a lot of competition shooters who think any form of concealed carry "looks" dangerous.
I see a lot of people who don't compete who think race holsters "look" dangerous.
To the average person who just owns a "house gun", the act of drawing a pistol and "running around" with it looks dangerous. But we as competitors do it all the time.
The fears are based on unfamiliarity and ignorance of techniques and safety protocols.

Any holster that's in front of the hip has the potential for pointing the gun at your thigh, crotch and/or femoral artery.
That includes "race holsters", appendix carry holsters (esp. IWB) and pocket holsters.
This is a big concern on stages where you start seated in a chair.
That's why a good holster, muzzle awareness and trigger finger discipline are so important.

Behind the hip carry has the potential for 180 violations, especially with forward canted holsters.
As a RO I have to remind a lot of shooters to watch their muzzle when holstering up "hip side".

"Dropped and offset" hip holsters point the muzzle directly at your lower thigh and knee.

When I RO a pocket carrier I watch for the same things I do when I RO any other competitor.
Muzzle awareness and trigger finger discipline.
Possible safety issues with the holster, clothing, accessories.
Violations are corrected or the competitor is disqualified depending on the nature of the violation/problem.

As to your second point, there is no way to avoid 180 violations and weak arm sweeping with a horizontal holster rig, that's why they aren't allowed.
If the shooter is facing downrange there is no way to draw the pistol without violating 180.
The only way to avoid muzzle sweeping the weak arm is to raise it over your head like you're washing your armpit.
It would be impractical to allow special dispensation to shoulder holster carriers to allow for a safe draw on every stage.

[Wheeler]

How many pocket holsters do you own?
How familiar with pocket carry and draw techniques and safety are you personally?
I think the majority of your fears are based on ignorance (that's not a personal attack on you).
I run into a lot of competition shooters who think any form of concealed carry "looks" dangerous.
I see a lot of people who don't compete who think race holsters "look" dangerous.
To the average person who just owns a "house gun", the act of drawing a pistol and "running around" with it looks dangerous. But we as competitors do it all the time.
The fears are based on unfamiliarity and ignorance of techniques and safety protocols.

Any holster that's in front of the hip has the potential for pointing the gun at your thigh, crotch and/or femoral artery.
That includes "race holsters", appendix carry holsters (esp. IWB) and pocket holsters.
This is a big concern on stages where you start seated in a chair.
That's why a good holster, muzzle awareness and trigger finger discipline are so important.

Behind the hip carry has the potential for 180 violations, especially with forward canted holsters.
As a RO I have to remind a lot of shooters to watch their muzzle when holstering up "hip side".

"Dropped and offset" hip holsters point the muzzle directly at your lower thigh and knee.

When I RO a pocket carrier I watch for the same things I do when I RO any other competitor.
Muzzle awareness and trigger finger discipline.
Possible safety issues with the holster, clothing, accessories.
Violations are corrected or the competitor is disqualified depending on the nature of the violation/problem.

As to your second point, there is no way to avoid 180 violations and weak arm sweeping with a horizontal holster rig, that's why they aren't allowed.
If the shooter is facing downrange there is no way to draw the pistol without violating 180.
The only way to avoid muzzle sweeping the weak arm is to raise it over your head like you're washing your armpit.
It would be impractical to allow special dispensation to shoulder holster carriers to allow for a safe draw on every stage.

Dang, I was going to reply to Tamara's question but JodyH nailed it all in one post. About the only thing I can add is that not only is it a safety concern, it's a liability concern for whatever range happens to be hosting the match/class. Even if shooters sign a disclaimer, that doesn't mean they can't file a lawsuit, and that can get expensive, even if the shooter is completely in the wrong.

Wheeler

[jlw]

Now that the baby Glocks and 3" K frames are included, I am interested in shooting this league some.

I do think the name is quite a misnomer. Perhaps something with "Snubby" in the title rather than "pocket carry" would be more appropriate.

[ToddG]

The real issue is that if you're developing a game that is intended to grow beyond some local buddies and other known entities, you have to build some "lowest common denominator" into your rules. Pocket carry is safe for responsible people who know what they're doing. So is walking around everywhere with a loaded gun. But there is reason why games like USPSA and IDPA run cold ranges. It's not because of the Tamaras and JodyHs of the world. It's because of the idiot you see at the range who can't bother to remember what "down range" means.

[jetfire]

Word. I can honestly say that I probably wouldn't shoot USPSA matches if they ran them on hot ranges.

[jar]

Word. I can honestly say that I probably wouldn't shoot USPSA matches if they ran them on hot ranges.

Are people being allowed to get away with major safety violations without getting DQ'd?

[jetfire]

Not that I'm aware of, but the concept of a hot range with 100 people running around at a USPSA match makes me nervous. I don't mind a hot range in a 10 person class, that's a different dynamic than a match.

[Caswell Ranch]

The real issue is that if you're developing a game that is intended to grow beyond some local buddies and other known entities, you have to build some "lowest common denominator" into your rules. Pocket carry is safe for responsible people who know what they're doing. So is walking around everywhere with a loaded gun. But there is reason why games like USPSA and IDPA run cold ranges. It's not because of the Tamaras and JodyHs of the world. It's because of the idiot you see at the range who can't bother to remember what "down range" means.

Thanks Todd, With skill levels all over the map the only safe way to hold a match is from a stong side holster in my view, many people may carry in a pocket but many do not practice the draw from it, if in the pocket were is the muzzle and trigger finger, safety, safety, safety.

[Caswell Ranch]

Now that the baby Glocks and 3" K frames are included, I am interested in shooting this league some.

I do think the name is quite a misnomer. Perhaps something with "Snubby" in the title rather than "pocket carry" would be more appropriate.

On the front page of the web site it notes, more in regard to gun size than mod of carry.

[jlw]

On the front page of the web site it notes, more in regard to gun size than mod of carry.

I've read that, but I respectfully contend that something along the lines of "snubby" or "sub-compact" would denote the same thing without the confusion. When people read "pocket carry" they think "pocket carry". They don't automatically think of it relating to the size of the gun only.

[JodyH]

Not that I'm aware of, but the concept of a hot range with 100 people running around at a USPSA match makes me nervous. I don't mind a hot range in a 10 person class, that's a different dynamic than a match.
It's a fact that the majority of AD's happen while loading or unloading a gun.
I worry more about 100 unknown people constantly loading and unloading all day long.
Add in the fact that the majority of "accidents" happen with "unloaded" firearms and the lax attitudes an "unloaded" gun encourage and I wouldn't be opposed to running a hot range.
Rule #1 of a hot range, you touch your gun away from the designated firing line and you're PERMANENTLY banned.
No appeal, no second chance, GONE.

[jar]

It's a fact that the majority of AD's happen while loading or unloading a gun.
I worry more about 100 unknown people constantly loading and unloading all day long.
Add in the fact that the majority of "accidents" happen with "unloaded" firearms and the lax attitudes an "unloaded" gun encourage and I wouldn't be opposed to running a hot range.
Rule #1 of a hot range, you touch your gun away from the designated firing line and you're PERMANENTLY banned.
No appeal, no second chance, GONE.

Except the loading and unloading happens one at a time under direct RO supervision.

Early in my competition career, I was one of those 'the real world is a hot range' guys. Now that I'm an SO/RO and occasional MD, I'm fine with cold ranges. Maybe it's worth splitting this discussion to it's own thread?

[ToddG]

I copied all the "hot range/cold range" posts to a separate thread here:
Hot or Cold? (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?636-Hot-or-Cold)

Please keep all discussion in this thread specifically about the Pocket Carry Competition Association. Comments regarding general hot/cold range policies should go in the the new thread. Thank you.

[Jason]

The Next PCCA match at Caswell will have a low light and no light stage, good practice as bad this happen at night, better to find out what works in a match than at a gas station late one night.

Things to think on,
Night Sights Y/N
Laser Y/N
Carry a Flashlight Y/N
Does my carry gun run 100% Y/N
at the matches so far we see some guns that fail at the same round count (3 shooters,3 guns of the same type and model all fail at 400-425rds with the same problem).
At PCCA we are keeping track of such things.


Just out of curiosity, what guns tend to work and what don't out of the sub-compacts and pocket guns. Mostly looking for info (even if anecdotal) on J frame size revolvers and pistols and smaller.

Thanks!

[Caswell Ranch]

Let me start by saying I don't wish to put down any company.

WORK
Revolvers,
J-frame S&W's Mod-60, 36, 640.
Ruger SP101, the LCR works but the cylinder is smaller than a J-frame so HKS speedloaders do not fit well (only the tip of the bullet goes in), Jetloaders do not work at all in an LCR.
Semi-Auto,
S&W M&P9c, Kahr (all), Glock 26/27, XD sub 9, Beretta PX4 sub, Sig 238HD(note HD).

NOT SO HOT
Slim 9 (extractor fail 3 guns)
Kel-Tec 380 (extraction problems,2 guns)
LCP (heavy recoil, does not lock back when empty)
Beretta 21a ( .22 sometimes run sometimes not)
Para-Ord Carry 9 (feed problems, extractor problems, 2 guns)
S&W 380 Bodyguard (feed problems)
PCCA will keep track of what works and what does not, hope it leads to better made guns of this type.

[Jason]

Thanks! Great data-points. I know the research is largely anecdotal, but seeing how diminutive guns really work under stress and some level of round count is important. Thank you very much for the unfiltered information. Just out of further curiosity, any data on Seecamp 32s?

[Caswell Ranch]

One shooter ran a Seecamp 32 for one stage (5rds) and changed guns, sold the gun the following week. Why ? I did not ask.

[Caswell Ranch]

Come on guys, ask your local club to hold PCCA matches, people are asking all over the country "were can I shoot this".

Regards,
Dean

[Caswell Ranch]

I've read that, but I respectfully contend that something along the lines of "snubby" or "sub-compact" would denote the same thing without the confusion. When people read "pocket carry" they think "pocket carry". They don't automatically think of it relating to the size of the gun only.

I understand, if I put "snubby" I'm sure I would have people think it was a J-frame only deal, some guns listed as sub-compact are small service guns, at this point with all legal paperwork done, file fees and law firm fees for Copyright and Trademark for PCCA plus targets I can't change a thing ( few thousand in).

[jlw]

I understand, if I put "snubby" I'm sure I would have people think it was a J-frame only deal, some guns listed as sub-compact are small service guns, at this point with all legal paperwork done, file fees and law firm fees for Copyright and Trademark for PCCA plus targets I can't change a thing ( few thousand in).

It's your league. Call it what you will.

There's an old PR adage that if you have to spend all of your time explaining it, people aren't getting the message. One local shooter that is also on this forum has mentioned trying it, but when I have mentioned it to other shooters in our group, they were turned off by the time the name was explained.

I wish you and the league well and much success.

[Caswell Ranch]

Thanks for the well wishes.

PCCA official targets came in today (to Caswell Ranch), already have a couple of LE Depts pick them for training and qual targets.

[Wheeler]

Thanks for the well wishes.

PCCA official targets came in today (to Caswell Ranch), already have a couple of LE Depts pick them for training and qual targets.

Can you post a picture for us of the target?

Wheeler

[JodyH]

Anyone remember the old IDSA?
They had a good set of rules and were an alternative to IDPA.
In fact our club still uses IDSA rules for our monthly "CCW match".

[Wheeler]

Can you post a picture for us of the target?

Wheeler

Disregard, I looked at the updated website. Looking good!

Wheeler

[Caswell Ranch]

Disregard, I looked at the updated website. Looking good!

Wheeler

Thanks.

Revolver note: Ruger SP101 is now the most used revolver in PCCA then the S&W 640,S&W mod 36 and last is the LCR.

[Wheeler]

Thanks.

Revolver note: Ruger SP101 is now the most used revolver in PCCA then the S&W 640,S&W mod 36 and last is the LCR.

Do you think there are really that many folks that carry an SP101 or are they starting to find ways to "game" it?

[Caswell Ranch]

Most all that are shooting an SP101 carry them, people that are thinking game are looking for the same gun or a J-frame Smith in 9mm with moon clips, for the most part people shoot PCCA as practice for carry with shoot-me vests being used less and less and I like this trend.

Regards,
Dean

[NGCSUGrad09]

Thanks.

Revolver note: Ruger SP101 is now the most used revolver in PCCA then the S&W 640,S&W mod 36 and last is the LCR.

Sounds like a bunch of steel framed guns in that category. Anyone shooting a normal 442 or even the AirLights?

Are the Rugers being carried on a belt or in a pocket?

[Caswell Ranch]

Rugers, on belt or jacket pocket, a few 442/642 are being used.

The gun that is being sold off most is the Ruger LCR, recoil (even with factory .38spl), cylinder being smaller than available loaders are the main reasons noted.

Some people have traded in the light weight guns for stainless guns that they now carry in the interest of putting the second shot on target, S&W mod 60 is also one of the go-to guns.

[VolGrad]

It's your league. Call it what you will.

There's an old PR adage that if you have to spend all of your time explaining it, people aren't getting the message. One local shooter that is also on this forum has mentioned trying it, but when I have mentioned it to other shooters in our group, they were turned off by the time the name was explained.

I wish you and the league well and much success.

I'm one of "the other shooters in our group". I will admit I probably won't ever participate in any official PCCA matches because I do not and will not ever carry my LCP in a hip holster. I carry it in my pocket. Period. IF I have to go to a hip holster then I carry a "real" gun.

I felt good about my raw times and hits until it was actually scored and adjusted for penalties. OUCH. I finished as a Good Shooter with a 83.72. I guess I need to work a lot more with my pocket gun to get that score down. I will say though all my shots that drew penalties still would have been in the bad guy .... even that one might have hit his foot. :cool:

Initial thoughts;


I would like to run some matches outlaw style to get more practice with my LCP.

The Classifier CoF is really fast and easy to setup and run. I like it.

The Classifier CoF would be EASY PEAZY for someone running a baby GLOCK or other sub-compact version of a duty type pistol. I expect at least half our "group" could run it ZERO DOWN in short time. I am not sure this makes an even playing field (from a gaming aspect) when you put those guys up against a LCP or J-frame or whatever else. If you carry a baby GLOCK that's great but if you want to game with it why not just shoot it in IDPA? Just sayin'.

[Wheeler]

I'm one of "the other shooters in our group". I will admit I probably won't ever participate in any official PCCA matches because I do not and will not ever carry my LCP in a hip holster. I carry it in my pocket. Period. IF I have to go to a hip holster then I carry a "real" gun.

I felt good about my raw times and hits until it was actually scored and adjusted for penalties. OUCH. I finished as a Good Shooter with a 83.72. I guess I need to work a lot more with my pocket gun to get that score down. I will say though all my shots that drew penalties still would have been in the bad guy .... even that one might have hit his foot. :cool:

Initial thoughts;


I would like to run some matches outlaw style to get more practice with my LCP.

The Classifier CoF is really fast and easy to setup and run. I like it.

The Classifier CoF would be EASY PEAZY for someone running a baby GLOCK or other sub-compact version of a duty type pistol. I expect at least half our "group" could run it ZERO DOWN in short time. I am not sure this makes an even playing field (from a gaming aspect) when you put those guys up against a LCP or J-frame or whatever else. If you carry a baby GLOCK that's great but if you want to game with it why not just shoot it in IDPA? Just sayin'.


According to the PCCA rules, baby Glocks would be in the discreet carry divison, vs. the pocket carry division. Sort of like IDPA, pocket sized guns would compete against pocket sized guns, regardless of trigger mechanism, safeties etc. Baby Glocks would compete against Kahrs, Micro Eagles, and six shot K & L frame sized revolvers with a 3" or shorter barrel.

Barring reloads, I'll run a 3" K frame against a G26 any day :)

[VolGrad]

According to the PCCA rules, baby Glocks would be in the discreet carry divison, vs. the pocket carry division. Sort of like IDPA, pocket sized guns would compete against pocket sized guns, regardless of trigger mechanism, safeties etc. Baby Glocks would compete against Kahrs, Micro Eagles, and six shot K & L frame sized revolvers with a 3" or shorter barrel.
Gotcha. That makes sense.

[Caswell Ranch]

Thanks for keeping the interest up guys. In discreet carry division as in pocket division, autos shoot against autos, revolver against revolver. Another club in NC is now holding PCCA, DCWC in Raleigh.

[old frank]

I see there is a video of the Championship Match on YouTube. (Search for"PCCA Championship at Caswell Ranch 2011").

Looks pretty good. How was the match, how many shooters, scores etc.

I didn't see anything listed on the website.
Thanks

[KeeFus]

I see there is a video of the Championship Match on YouTube. (Search for"PCCA Championship at Caswell Ranch 2011").

Looks pretty good. How was the match, how many shooters, scores etc.

I didn't see anything listed on the website.
Thanks

http://caswellranch.com/Documents/PCCA%20Open%20Final%20results.pdf

[shep854]

As one who pocket-carries exclusively (J-frame & K-T 9mm), this is very interesting to me.
In the past, I would shoot my P11 in IDPA-style matches. Instead of going for pure time, I shot stages as realistically as I could--ex., since my carry was a 7+1 PF9, I loaded the P11 with 8 rounds. My times and scores were close to the bottom, but I was comfortable with my chosen weapon.
Rules required holster carry, but I didn't mind, since I can practice the draw at home; plus, if I have my hand in my pocket, I can grasp the gun.

[Little Creek]

I could get into this. My J-frame for POCKET GUN and my G26 for DISCREET CARRY. Note that no AIWB allowed. Must be IWB or OWB at or behind hip carry. I prefer to carry the J-frame in a holster in my front pants pocket. Does anyone want to start a PCCA club in Atlanta or central GA area?

[Wheeler]

I could get into this. My J-frame for POCKET GUN and my G26 for DISCREET CARRY. Note that no AIWB allowed. Must be IWB or OWB at or behind hip carry. I prefer to carry the J-frame in a holster in my front pants pocket. Does anyone want to start a PCCA club in Atlanta or central GA area?

It's been discussed. There might possibly be one starting at Cherokee Gun Club. More to follow.

[Little Creek]

That would be great. Looking forward to an update. Do you know if the targets are available?

[Caswell Ranch]

Targets are available, contact info at www.caswellranch.com

I've seen a video of the classifier being shot on you tube, all is good untill the last string (4 shots each target) the shooter does not do a reload, this is not correct (max load to start is five rounds) so it should be 1-2-3-4 first target, 1 second target reload 1-2-3 second target for the 8 shot total.

Best Regards,
Dean

Still keeping track of guns that work and the ones that fail, so far S&W M&Pc has become the favorite DC auto with the Ruger SR9c and G-26 just behind, fail rate of the S&W is zero at this time. Ruger SP101 is the go to revolver with the S&W steel J-frame second (both zero fail of gun) people have traded off most of the light weight Smith's along with the LCR's.
Taurus, Kel-Tec small 9mm have a poor record at 400rds all so far have failed.

[TGS]

Thanks for keeping track of these things, it could be a useful data point.

Are these shooters replacing their guns just for the competition, or are they changing up what they actually carry as well to the heavier guns such as an SP101, steel smiths, ect?


Targets are available, contact info at www.caswellranch.com

I've seen a video of the classifier being shot on you tube, all is good untill the last string (4 shots each target) the shooter does not do a reload, this is not correct (max load to start is five rounds) so it should be 1-2-3-4 first target, 1 second target reload 1-2-3 second target for the 8 shot total.

Best Regards,
Dean

Still keeping track of guns that work and the ones that fail, so far S&W M&Pc has become the favorite DC auto with the Ruger SR9c and G-26 just behind, fail rate of the S&W is zero at this time. Ruger SP101 is the go to revolver with the S&W steel J-frame second (both zero fail of gun) people have traded off most of the light weight Smith's along with the LCR's.
Taurus, Kel-Tec small 9mm have a poor record at 400rds all so far have failed.

[Wheeler]

What is the point of failure on the LCR's and lightweight J frames? Is there a common mechanical failure or is it shooter preference?

[Caswell Ranch]

TGS, people are making the change to their carry guns, live with a little more weight for a more shootable gun.

Wheeler, for the most part the change from LCR and light J-frame is because of recoil, now the Ruger cylinder is smaller than a J-frame and speedloaders do not fit (HKS or Safariland) you can only get the tip of the rounds in the cylinder, this was a problem some owners found after purchase, one LCR frame gave up (top strap burnt through) at 300rds of Win White Box 130g.
A problem that has not caused a fail yet with the airweight Smith's (don't know if all are this way) but is being watched is the use of alloy pins in the gun EG the hammer pin (pin pressed into frame that the hammer pivots on) shows a groove in the pin from the hammer in only 200rds, I've noted this on a few guns and only time and rounds will tell.

Regards,
Dean

[Wheeler]

Dean,

Thanks for the feedback. I've run approximatly 200 rounds through mine so far,the majority of which have been +P reloads. I'l keep a closer eye on the topstrap. Recoil is a bit brisk. I have the boot grips on mine and have considered giving up a little concealability and going with the larger grips. Lack of speedloaders is a problem. I'm surprised that Safariland and/or HKS haven't come out with a product gien the marketing success of the LCR pistols.

Best regards,
Wheeler