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ford.304
03-17-2014, 11:52 AM
I really wasn't sure where to put this, so please feel free to move it...

I very recently started branching out into sporting clays. Definitely a lot of fun! I was the only one in my squad with a pump gun (just your basic/class Remington 870). One of the things I noticed was that the approach to safety was much more... relaxed... than the pistol matches I have been to. I wouldn't go as far to say it was unsafe, but the rules and norms were much less clear on things like show clear commands, safeties, and the like.

My actual question is - what is the correct usage of the safety on a shotgun in these sorts of games? Should the safety stay on at all times when you aren't actively shouldering the gun? Or is good muzzle direction and finger placement considered good enough?

I just noticed I was being much less consistent with it than I am with the one on my 1911 (including leaving the gun sitting on the rack with the action open and the safety off, and one accidentally forgetting to take it off when I went to shoot), and wanted some advice on how I *should* be training myself to use it.

JeffJ
03-17-2014, 12:00 PM
In shotgun sports, generally, the action is open if you aren't on the line about to shoot. Engaging the safety on an open, unloaded gun is not strictly necessary and probably not even possible on some models. Having said that, it's better to be in the habit of putting it on when you demount the gun and taking it off when you mount it.

I think that the reason that it isn't as codified in the shotgun sports is 1 part tradition, and 1 part easily visually verified open actions - it'd be more like everyone walking around with their pistol's slide locked to the rear in the holster.

I also think that the games are still designed to be played with a real shotgun, that is - one that opens, not one of those people-shooting pump guns, or ridiculous automatics :cool:

joshs
03-17-2014, 12:09 PM
I use the safety when shooting clay sports, but most people that I've observed don't. For me, mounting the shotgun while taking the safety off is good practice for 3 gun.

LHS
03-17-2014, 12:15 PM
I'm just happy to get through a round of clays without getting muzzled...

1slow
03-17-2014, 12:19 PM
Most shotgun safeties do not seem to block anything more than the trigger.
I believe the military Mossberg is supposed to be drop safe.

LOKNLOD
03-17-2014, 12:19 PM
I got to shoot my first sporting clays event in the fall. (It was fun. I want a more appropriate shotgun for it...) It was a big organized fund-raiser type event, and it's pretty obvious that no one there was carrying a weapon, just lots of folks with ballistic golf clubs.

Wheeler
03-17-2014, 12:23 PM
I've yet to shoot a match or tournament where the use of the safety is required. As a matter of fact, most shooters I know start with their fingers on the trigger once they are in the box. I do not. I start unmounted with my finger on the receiver and get no end of grief over it with derisive comments about pistol shooters and so forth. Thatpretty much ended when I had a failure to eject on a station with a crosser and an away bird. I cleared the empty hull and broke the away bird at around 60 yards. :-)

I too am happy to shoot a round without getting muzzled.

joshs
03-17-2014, 12:36 PM
We are talking about shooting sports where the more experienced shooters often have a special rest on their shoe for the barrel of their shotgun. "Treat all guns as if they are loaded" isn't a universally accepted practice in shooting sports.

JeffJ
03-17-2014, 12:38 PM
But those are for break-action guns. Maybe I'm way off base, but when my gun is broken open I don't care where the muzzle points - its one of the things that I like about break action guns.

joshs
03-17-2014, 12:47 PM
But those are for break-action guns. Maybe I'm way off base, but when my gun is broken open I don't care where the muzzle points - its one of the things that I like about break action guns.

People definitely use them with semis and pumps too. I think of it like a blue gun or SIRT pistol. I don't sweep people with those either unless I make the conscious decision to do so and ask them before I do it. I've also seen a number of reports of self inflicted gun shots from using a toe rest incorrectly.

JeffJ
03-17-2014, 01:00 PM
The people using them with semi's and pumps are doing it wrong...

LHS
03-17-2014, 01:03 PM
At my last round of clays, some fudd ahead of me kept slinging his shotgun over his shoulder, muzzles sweeping everyone behind him. He got rather irritated when I asked him to watch his muzzles. He said "the action's open." It was all I could do not to say "Mine's not, kitten hole."

ford.304
03-17-2014, 01:07 PM
Thanks for the info.

I agree that the prevalence of break-open guns seems to encourage some bad habits from the semi-auto and pump guys.

I need to get used to the safety on this thing anyway, so I guess I might as well start being consistent with it. I felt like I shot ok, but I need weeks more practice on manipulations. I felt far more embarrassed with my trouble getting rounds into the gun with gloves on without dropping anything than I did missing birds.

Alpha Sierra
03-17-2014, 01:12 PM
I shoot a lot of sporting clays with a semi auto shotgun and I never engage the safety. The gun is always unloaded with the action open unless I am in the box. The rules do not require that safeties be used, and in fact can be removed or locked in the off position. I might have the safety on mine (Rem 1100) disabled, as the gun is dedicated to clay sports.

TR675
03-17-2014, 01:29 PM
So in another thread this morning (about the gentlemen who AD'd into his lower leg) I mentioned that I found that my lax practice engaging a shotgun safety in one arena led to me being unintentionally lax in another. I have to wonder if it isn't just the best practice to keep the safety engaged at all times that you aren't ready to shoot, action open or not, sporting clays or not. I understand that with some models of shotgun this may not be possible, but it is on mine and I intend to keep using it - I'd rather it be an ingrained reflex instead of something I have to think about.

idahojess
03-17-2014, 02:35 PM
I've only shot trap a couple of times, but I have shot sporting clays and clay pigeons from throwers. I always try to practice with the safety on, so I have to take the safety off while mounting the gun. I think it's a good habit for hunting. I prefer top tang safeties -- either on a pump or on an over under.

DocGKR
03-17-2014, 04:22 PM
Safety should be on.

Alpha Sierra
03-17-2014, 05:23 PM
Safety should be on.
Why?

You would quickly get laughed out of any serious SC squad.

DocGKR
03-17-2014, 05:43 PM
I get laughed at a lot.

My oldest kid goes to medical school in Boston--he used to think it was funny that I carried a tourniquet with me.......then he experienced the bombing last April and now he thinks that a tourniquet is smart and prudent. Back in the day SWAT guys who used their MP5 safeties used to get laughed at too. It is all about experience and perspective.

There is NO downside to using the safety on a long gun, only an upside, particularly when using a shotgun for real (see Alberto Sepulveda) or when doing shooting sports with movement, like 3-gun.

TR675
03-17-2014, 06:03 PM
Better to be laughed at than to ingrain bad habits.

Alpha Sierra
03-17-2014, 08:25 PM
Comparing a shotgun clay game to three gun matches, moving with loaded weapons, and tourniquets is ridiculous.

We're talking about a game where one can load no more than two cartridges at a time when in the shooting position, and every other second of the day the gun is unloaded and opened. Nobody runs around with loaded guns in sporting clays, skeet, or trap.

Ingraining unsafe habits? Are you kidding me? Who here cannot keep straight the difference between carrying a loaded weapon for defense/offense and using a firearm as a piece of sporting equipment in a controlled environment? I sure can. Besides, I don't carry any handgun that needs to have a manual safety engaged. I simply refuse. So I am actually ingraining a positive habit: not to screw around with some button when what I really want is to launch a bullet ASAP.

DocGKR
03-17-2014, 08:41 PM
The thread title states safeties in shotgun sports, not shotgun clay games; last I checked 3-gun is a shotgun sport.

TR675
03-17-2014, 09:08 PM
Besides, I don't carry any handgun that needs to have a manual safety engaged. I simply refuse. So I am actually ingraining a positive habit: not to screw around with some button when what I really want is to launch a bullet ASAP.

I guess your finger is your safety. I saw that movie too.

Lomshek
03-17-2014, 10:05 PM
Ingraining unsafe habits? Are you kidding me? Who here cannot keep straight the difference between carrying a loaded weapon for defense/offense and using a firearm as a piece of sporting equipment in a controlled environment? I sure can. Besides, I don't carry any handgun that needs to have a manual safety engaged. I simply refuse. So I am actually ingraining a positive habit: not to screw around with some button when what I really want is to launch a bullet ASAP.

As far as shotguns go some folks have shot themselves or others because they chambered a round then left the safety off just like they train (because they never train with a safety since it slows them down if they leave it on: go figure).

The amazement some express at lax standards because "all the guns are unloaded" is because there are an awful lot of examples of someone treating a loaded gun like an unloaded one since that's their routine procedure.

I'd rather learn from someone else's mistakes. We all make our own decisions off our own ideas of what's possible. It's a free country.

MDS
03-17-2014, 10:30 PM
Who here cannot keep straight the difference between carrying a loaded weapon for defense/offense and using a firearm as a piece of sporting equipment in a controlled environment? I sure can.

I resemble that remark! No way would I trust myself to keep that difference straight when distracted or on autopilot - things which, for me as a short-busser, could easily happen both in defense/offense, and in a controlled sporting environment.

Chuck Haggard
03-17-2014, 11:30 PM
Comparing a shotgun clay game to three gun matches, moving with loaded weapons, and tourniquets is ridiculous.

We're talking about a game where one can load no more than two cartridges at a time when in the shooting position, and every other second of the day the gun is unloaded and opened. Nobody runs around with loaded guns in sporting clays, skeet, or trap.

Ingraining unsafe habits? Are you kidding me? Who here cannot keep straight the difference between carrying a loaded weapon for defense/offense and using a firearm as a piece of sporting equipment in a controlled environment? I sure can. Besides, I don't carry any handgun that needs to have a manual safety engaged. I simply refuse. So I am actually ingraining a positive habit: not to screw around with some button when what I really want is to launch a bullet ASAP.

Some of us also have serious long guns, not just "ballistic golf clubs". Best to keep a consistent SOP going for all of them.

Slavex
03-18-2014, 01:02 AM
Funny I know a couple guys with a limp who would disagree with not using safeties at trap or skeet. Both lost bits of a foot after resting the muzzle on their foot and somehow pulling the trigger. One was a pump, the other a double barrel. Both were "unloaded"

JeffJ
03-18-2014, 08:54 AM
Maybe the safety would have helped there, and I don't think it's bad to put on a safety - I shoot a field grade O/U and the safety automically engages when the gun is broken open, so I've always got to take it off and do so as part of mounting the gun.

But the real issue there is: putting the muzzle of pump or double that's not broken open on your foot - not to mention, why the hell they were loaded outside of the shooting box

As far as being laughed at for putting on your safety on a skeet field, I doubt anyone would notice.

Also, I shoot birds with an O/U, and it is a shotgun - I have also had pumps and autos that are set up to shoot not-birds, and they are also shotguns - but they are totally different pieces of equipment and I don't find it difficult to treat them as such.

ford.304
03-18-2014, 10:02 AM
But the real issue there is: putting the muzzle of pump or double that's not broken open on your foot - not to mention, why the hell they were loaded outside of the shooting box


I really enjoyed the match, but I have to say that I felt much less comfortable with how little attention anyone was paying to my obvious "show clear" motions. The guy shooting an auto didn't even hold the gun up for inspection.

JeffJ
03-18-2014, 10:22 AM
I worked at a shotgun club for a while in college, so I've been around a lot of skeet, trap, 5 stand, and SC - I've also loaded a ton of clay pigeons. I've never heard the words "unload and show clear" outside of a pistol setting (throwing 3-gun into that). We did make sure that everyone knew that you loaded 2, shot 2 and stepped off the line. I've never seen anyone put a pump, auto, or closed O/U Sxs on their foot so maybe I've just been around a safer bunch of shooters - also, I'm used to the pump/auto guys exercising decent muzzle discipline - I personally have no problem having the barrels of a broken open gun pointing at me - you are welcome to field strip your pistol and pull the barrel out and point it at me too.

Crews
03-18-2014, 10:40 AM
I shoot sporting clays often... Action open unless you're in the box, load 2 shoot 2. Strictly enforced. I can visually confirm someone else's gun is safe when the action is open, a safety button... Not so much. I feel safe with those rules.

Now out in the field bird hunting? That's a different issue altogether!

Alpha Sierra
03-18-2014, 10:49 AM
I shoot sporting clays often... Action open unless you're in the box, load 2 shoot 2. Strictly enforced. I can visually confirm someone else's gun is safe when the action is open, a safety button... Not so much. I feel safe with those rules.

+1

Chuck Haggard
03-18-2014, 10:49 AM
I shoot sporting clays often... Action open unless you're in the box, load 2 shoot 2. Strictly enforced. I can visually confirm someone else's gun is safe when the action is open, a safety button... Not so much. I feel safe with those rules.

Now out in the field bird hunting? That's a different issue altogether!

Exactly, which is why so many dudes I see bird hunting are dangerous to be around.

A guys handles a shotgun in anti-Rule1 mode, as in "all guns are unloaded" and they get really sloppy with the gun handling. Guys then are then carrying loaded guns.......

Two modes of handling leads to the wrong mode at the wrong time.

Crews
03-18-2014, 10:59 AM
Exactly, which is why so many dudes I see bird hunting are dangerous to be around.


Absolutely. I've got lots of friends that like to hunt, but there's only a few I'm comfortable enough to hunt with.

Guns stay pointed in a safe direction at all times, one in the hole, and safety stays on until gun is shouldered.

I will agree however, that inconsistencies in gun handling methods from sport to sport can be asking for trouble.

JAD
03-24-2014, 07:35 PM
. Nobody runs around with loaded guns in sporting clays, skeet, or trap.

Oh, i do.

Wheeler
03-25-2014, 11:15 AM
Oh, i do.

Ditto