2011 update: 13 months EDC

[Haraise]

So I'm at 13 months, decided to take some pictures at the range.

Not the cleanest gun out there.
http://i61.tinypic.com/2ag22j9.jpg

Have only cleaned it... twice? Never opened up the mags. Just a quick field strip and more ultima grease (Wilson Combat). Trying Slide Glide next. Shoutout to CGA who hooked me up with some for the testing. Thank you!

The fuzzy isn't the camera out of focus.
http://i62.tinypic.com/34p1gdz.jpg

Bent the edge of the rear sight. The gun isn't getting the easiest life ever.
http://i58.tinypic.com/2f07oyx.jpg

I'm not sure why the aluminum thread protector is turning a different colour. Thoughts?
http://i59.tinypic.com/99nhhs.jpg

Summation:

0 FTF
0 FTE
0 Parts breakage

A gun that was designed to be competition reliable and then some, didn't just stop the moment it was carried. Trust this gun, by now.

[GardoneVT]

0 rounds fired?

[JohnK]

0 rounds fired?

I can't see why he would like to hang out at the range, occupying a stall, just to take pictures... but that's just me.

[joshs]

I can't see why he would like to hang out at the range, occupying a stall, just to take pictures... but that's just me.

I think the point was that zero stoppages, malfunctions, or parts breakages doesn't tell us a lot about the pistol's reliability without a total round count.

[Haraise]

0 rounds fired?

You got me. I do like to just hang out at the range, and I borrow other people's gun grime to mix it in with my lube to get that 'not yet cleaned' look. :(

[Tamara]

You got me. I do like to just hang out at the range, and I borrow other people's gun grime to mix it in with my lube to get that 'not yet cleaned' look. :(

I think folks are just curious regarding the round count is all. :o

[jetfire]

I think folks are just curious regarding the round count is all. :o

Word.

[GJM]

Let's turn it into a contest. My guess is 12,011 rounds.

[JeffJ]

I'll take 8250

[Haraise]

Not that much. Specifically wanted to see how it'd do with being shot irregularly, cleaned even less.

What I've heard about the 2011 is that it can be reliable for 50-150,000 rounds in competition but 'wouldn't trust it for carry.' So, trying to simulate the most common ways guns are carried, I:

Kept the gun IWB.
Only cleaned it once or twice, reapplied lube only then.
In the months between, the only cleaning I did was to wipe the glass of the RMR.
Put about a thousand rounds through it.

And still no issue. This definitely wasn't a high round count test. Tons of people have done that on the 2011 platform. Less with the low round, low cleaning, lots of time carrying.

[KevinB]

How many rounds did you shoot?

Carrying the gun and not shooting it, does not tell you a damn thing.

[Stephen]

I'm pretty sure the crappiest Taurus in Brazil could pass that test.

[jetfire]

Not that much. Specifically wanted to see how it'd do with being shot irregularly, cleaned even less.

What I've heard about the 2011 is that it can be reliable for 50-150,000 rounds in competition but 'wouldn't trust it for carry.' So, trying to simulate the most common ways guns are carried, I:

Kept the gun IWB.
Only cleaned it once or twice, reapplied lube only then.
In the months between, the only cleaning I did was to wipe the glass of the RMR.
Put about a thousand rounds through it.

And still no issue. This definitely wasn't a high round count test. Tons of people have done that on the 2011 platform. Less with the low round, low cleaning, lots of time carrying.

How much is "not that much?" Inquiring minds want to know!

[GJM]

How much is "not that much?" Inquiring minds want to know!

Read the post you quoted, and you will know. (Hint, about 1,000 rounds)

[Stephen]

Maybe OP just pioneered the successor to the 2,000 round challenge. The new yard stick of a pistol's durability is how well it holds up to sitting in a holster not being shot.

The Kimber fanboys will love it.

[Haraise]

I'm pretty sure the crappiest Taurus in Brazil could pass that test.

Possibly. I did it for reasons stated. If you want to look at a 2011 that shot 150,000 rounds, you can find tons at the BE forum.

There's a common train of thought that a high volume reliable gun doesn't translate into a reliable carry gun. This is to test that idea. Looking for volume shooting, either wait a while here or look elsewhere.

[jetfire]

Read the post you quoted, and you will know. (Hint, about 1,000 rounds)

I blame the California school system.

[ToddG]

Let's tone it down, guys. Pointing out that 1k rounds isn't a lot is fine. Getting snarky and making personal comments is not.

[GJM]

You wouldn't be the first person in the history of PF to post without reading each word of the preceding responses. I had to look two or three times to find it.

[Haraise]

How many rounds did you shoot?

Carrying the gun and not shooting it, does not tell you a damn thing.

Doesn't tell me a thing. Excepting it exactly tests the failure method that is most commonly held against carrying a 2011 by the majority of people that I've seen argue against it.

Might not be your favorite test, might not be my favorite test. Might not even be a smart test. But it's testing 'common knowledge,' which isn't always smart or my favorite thing. Tests are built around a hypothesis. In this case, the hypothesis is that 2011's can shoot a lot reliably but are unreliable to carry.

Mythbusters would be a very boring show if they ignored what they were trying to disprove and went with optimal performance evaluation of their items instead, as an example.

[ToddG]

In this case, the hypothesis is that 2011's can shoot a lot reliably but are unreliable to carry.

Wait. What? Are you trying to be silly/joking or are you serious?

I don't think anyone has accused 2011's as failing when they're sitting unused. That's not what people mean when they say "for carry." They mean that they distrust the gun to run functionally when treated in the way folks tend to treat carry guns as opposed to race guns. The fact that it didn't have any failures on all the days it wasn't fired is like saying your car never had a problem in the 100 miles you drove it last year.

What you've proven is that your gun could go about 1,000 rounds without much in the way of maintenance. It's nothing more (or less, which is why I admonished folks earlier) than that.

[Haraise]

Wait. What? Are you trying to be silly/joking or are you serious?

I don't think anyone has accused 2011's as failing when they're sitting unused. That's not what people mean when they say "for carry." They mean that they distrust the gun to run functionally when treated in the way folks tend to treat carry guns as opposed to race guns. The fact that it didn't have any failures on all the days it wasn't fired is like saying your car never had a problem in the 100 miles you drove it last year.

What you've proven is that your gun could go about 1,000 rounds without much in the way of maintenance. It's nothing more (or less, which is why I admonished folks earlier) than that.

If I was testing to see if they were failing while sitting unused, that would be silly. In addition, I'm not sure how I'd test for a gun to fail while not being shot.

What was accused was failing after being carried for a while. Specifically, there was a lot of concern about the magazines failing as they filled up with lint, gunpowder, sand (Arizona), and so on. Then if one tried to shoot them, they would fail in some method.

Other concerns were the tight fitting of a 2011 binding after months of not being lubed, being dirty, so on. I could post links of these discussions, but it'd be cross forum, so I've left them out (other than referencing BE). In short, it's a lot of 'I shoot a (brand x) 2011 in competition, but I carry a glock because (reason why the 2011 would be reliable to compete with but not carry).'

[ToddG]

Respectfully, if you come in here and explain how your gun didn't have any problems passing challenges that were issued elsewhere without explaining what those challenges were supposed to be, I think the confused responses here are understandable.

[Haraise]

Respectfully, if you come in here and explain how your gun didn't have any problems passing challenges that were issued elsewhere without explaining what those challenges were supposed to be, I think the confused responses here are understandable.

Just so. I was incomplete in my original post and it lead to confusion. My mistake. Was too excited to show that old grease, sand and six months of lint don't stop the 2011.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Specifically, it didn't stop the 2011 from a performing at a level that many here would describe as "possibly adequate".

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

[Casual Friday]

Nevermind....

[MDS]

The lint, ding, and alumi-rust (or whatever that is) are beautiful. I'll be looking for more updates as the round count continues climbing.

[JV_]

I'm not sure why the aluminum thread protector is turning a different colour. Thoughts?

Perhaps someone was mistaken and it's not aluminum.

[Tamara]

Other concerns were the tight fitting of a 2011 binding after months of not being lubed, being dirty, so on.

Don't worry, there are people on this forum who've carried hard-fitted 1911s and who treat their carry guns with a level of neglect that some would say borders on abuse. I don't think that was necessarily in doubt to the clueful. ;)

[Chuck Haggard]

I've seen or heard of a number of guns failing people from carry without being shot much.

An example would be a guy I know that had a PM9 for pocket carry. He got tired of getting a first round stoppage every single time he carried it more than a week without a cleaning and re-lube.

[1slow]

Back when I used to crawl under equipment and houses regularly it was necessary to clean a CCW pistol more often than if I had shot 500 rounds a week through it.

[JBP55]

So if I carry a 2011 that I shoot 18 rounds per week with lint on it and only lube it occasionally it will still work after 1,000 rounds?
I read every post and I think this is an unusual thread to say the least.

[FotoTomas]

As a point of comparison. My agency requires a qualification with duty ammo twice a year. 100 rounds total. They "recommend" another 150 rounds twice a year to practice fundementals as well as some basic tactics. 400 rounds a year is nothing in my opinion because I am a gun bunny and like shooting. My particular office has upped training to about 1000 rounds a year with a qualification quarterly and about 250 rounds total of live fire quarterly as well as another 20 to 30 rounds of Simunition ammo fired in role play training. This is a vastly superior ammout of ammo and training that many it not most agencies do not get. Adding to the mix 95% of the officers I work with ONLY shoot the amounts required during training while ignoring their daily off duty carry guns makes me believe that Haraise has a valid point. Expending about 1000 rounds in a 13 month period of EDC with a particular pistol is well withing the parameters of his stated guidelines at the bottom of the post.

I agree posting the total roundcount in the original post would have been a bonus but I completely understood the point he was making. And since I realize the vast majority of handgun users will NOT shoot 1000 rounds a year he seems to have a pretty good round count for its purpose.

If Haraise keeps carrying the piece as his EDC for personal protection I would like to see more next year with another "about a thousand" rounds down range.

I can sympathize on several points since several of my carry guns do not get the workouts I used to maintain when I had more time, ammo and money to spend on the hobby aspect. Lately its been more of the "occasional" match and competition with limited personal practice and very few rounds out of the EDC guns I keep around.

[Tamara]

Regarding the neglect duty guns see:
When Shootin' Buddy was interning at IMPD, being a gun nerd and all, he'd go hang out around the armorers as much as he could. One time he was down there when a duty revolver was receiving the loving ministrations required to get the action open. This was required because the officer to whom the weapon was issued was a motorcycle cop who was in the habit of eating his lunchtime hot dog in the saddle, turned to the right to avoid dripping condiments on his uniform or his bike, and the cylinder was frozen shut with a concrete-like crust of age-cured dried mustard.

[Chuck Haggard]

Yup.

Our bike and motor guys are tough on guns just because it gets hot here, and humans sweat.


I did once see a S&W 5906 go Matrix speed when we did a cold qual with duty ammo. Coppers pulls trigger in DA on gun that is in the state it has been for the past three months. I see hammer come back slowwwwwly as so many guys do when trying to shoot the first DA shot at the 25, then I see it drop just as slowwwwly.

No Bang. I say "Do that again". He does. Same thing.

I take gun, unload and strip it down, it's full of what looks like maple syrup. I smell test in "WTF?" mode. Smells like............. regular Coke.

Dude had dumped a big gulp in his cruiser, wiped down the seats and himself, wiped the outside of the gun and called it good.

I mean what? It's stainless steel, right?

[Rich]

Regarding the neglect duty guns see:
When Shootin' Buddy was interning at IMPD, being a gun nerd and all, he'd go hang out around the armorers as much as he could. One time he was down there when a duty revolver was receiving the loving ministrations required to get the action open. This was required because the officer to whom the weapon was issued was a motorcycle cop who was in the habit of eating his lunchtime hot dog in the saddle, turned to the right to avoid dripping condiments on his uniform or his bike, and the cylinder was frozen shut with a concrete-like crust of age-cured dried mustard.

I can see that kind a of stuff happening with leo who aren't into guns .

I would think most of us would keep our handguns in good condition.

[LittleLebowski]

Looks like a nice pistol; I hope Haraise continues shooting it and recording the data.

[klewis]

Honestly, while I know that the high round count endurance tests are much better for ascertaining the abilities of the gun, Haraise's test is much more in line with what a gun goes through in most people's possession as a carry or duty weapon, and most definitely the majority of home defense weapons. Don't lose sight of the fact that this board is WEIRD in the amount of rounds shot by the average member. Hit any other group of shooters, and you'll find comments about how a gun is "totally reliable" after 100 rounds. That was part of the impetus for starting the high round count tests in the first place, no?

I'm very interested to see how it goes. We had Todd disprove a bit of the "1911 as unreliable junk" meme, though he did show that the maintenance schedule is higher on it than more modern designs. Fair enough. Let's see what the 2011 can do under more "standard" circumstances. It may not "prove" anything in particular, but it is interesting. Besides, he's having fun!

[jetfire]

Looks like a nice pistol; I hope Haraise continues shooting it and recording the data.

2212

I don't know why, but that comment made think of my favorite PA strip (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/08/11).

[JeffJ]

There is a conception that the more customized guns, especially 2011s, are great for competition but need to be babied and therefore can't be relied on for carry. I think we've all seen that basic argument put forth. Haraise's test is showing that she can rely on it to go bang without cleaning and taking apart the mags every morning before breakfast.

I think that it's a valuable thing to look at - I shoot a slightly customized pistol and if it turns out that I need to clean my carry gun more often - I'm OK with that, I need the gun to go through 33 rounds without trouble, 2000 is nice but not a necessity for me. I'm also a believer in not putting massive amounts of wear and tear on my carry pistol.

I'm interested to see what kind of maintenance intervals Haraise comes up with.

[Don Gwinn]

This thread is going to some weird places, and I like it.

[ToddG]

There is a conception that the more customized guns, especially 2011s, are great for competition but need to be babied and therefore can't be relied on for carry. I think we've all seen that basic argument put forth. Haraise's test is showing that she can rely on it to go bang without cleaning and taking apart the mags every morning before breakfast.

But it's in a more or less static state. I don't think most people question the 2011's ability to remain the same in stasis. It's when it gets subjected to the kind of practice regimen many of us use, without that "cleaning and taking apart the mags every morning before breakfast," that doubts arise.

If I airlift a Ford Fiesta to the top of a mountain and leave it there for two years, I wouldn't expect it to have much in the way of mechanical problems. If I drove it up and down the mountain every day, on the other hand...

[JeffJ]

But it's not in stasis - the mags and mag well and rds are getting banged around, the pistol is subjected to lint, sweat, dust, sand etc. - it's not like it's being kept in the safe.

To go with your Ford Fiesta argument - do you really expect it to turn right over and drive you down the mountain after 2 years? Or will it need a little TLC before that beast cranks over and gives you the ride of your life?

[Mark]

But it's not in stasis - the mags and mag well and rds are getting banged around, the pistol is subjected to lint, sweat, dust, sand etc. - it's not like it's being kept in the safe.

To go with your Ford Fiesta argument - do you really expect it to turn right over and drive you down the mountain after 2 years? Or will it need a little TLC before that beast cranks over and gives you the ride of your life?

I think this is a good point. I'd add it's also like said Fiesta was in a few sand storms during its stay on the mountain. Also I think it should be noted that one of Hilton Yam's points when people would say their particular 1911 was "duty" reliable was that a duty gun gets rained on, bumped into walls, sits in trunks, etc. unlike a gun that is not riding in an exposed duty holster but rather being placed back into a case after shooting. I don't recall his exact words but the gyst was very much what the gun is exposed to, simply by riding in the holster, it seems that this is what the op might be after.

I have also been curious as to why someone would shoot heavy volumes through a carry/duty/defensive gun. If you're shooting heavy volume why not use an identically set up training gun and limit your carry guns round count after it's proven itself?

[Dr. No]

I think this is a good point. I'd add it's also like said Fiesta was in a few sand storms during its stay on the mountain. Also I think it should be noted that one of Hilton Yam's points when people would say their particular 1911 was "duty" reliable was that a duty gun gets rained on, bumped into walls, sits in trunks, etc. unlike a gun that is not riding in an exposed duty holster but rather being placed back into a case after shooting. I don't recall his exact words but the gyst was very much what the gun is exposed to, simply by riding in the holster, it seems that this is what the op might be after.

I have also been curious as to why someone would shoot heavy volumes through a carry/duty/defensive gun. If you're shooting heavy volume why not use an identically set up training gun and limit your carry guns round count after it's proven itself?

That's what I do. Most folks don't own two of the same gun, they see it as redundant. Most folks who put the kind of mileage we do on our guns probably do.

Duty gun:
2011- 1758 rounds
2012- 1353 rounds
2013- 1479 rounds

Competition gun:
2011-9599 rounds
2012-5514 rounds
2013-11867 rounds

I experienced quite a few more failures in my heavily run rig, mostly from ammunition issues (my reloads) and STI mags being fussy. Almost no failures from duty guns. The way it should be..

[Haraise]

Thanks guys, it's good to see some people getting the test. Like I said, if you're looking for a 2011 that has had 50,000, 100,000, 150,000 rounds through it, you can have your pick of thousands.

That testing has been done. Obviously tuned 2011s are solid competition guns, if made by the right people and kept up with. When I originally said I was going to carry it, so many people said I'd need to clean and shoot it every week, and the mag springs would settle and it wouldn't shoot reliably at all.

None of that has happened. I figured ~1000 rounds was a normal shooting schedule, and decided to only clean/lube it twice in 13 months. When drawing from the holster, it looks like it's covered in rabbit fur before it starts to fall off from shooting. The (bluing) finish is wearing heavily from the kydex, I've dropped, hit, ran into walls with it, all kinds of normal carry things. No problem.

If you want a high round count, that's a great test. And very reasonable. Just it's a different test.

But round count should be much, much higher this year. I've gotten my data on this.

[JV_]

and the mag springs would settle and it wouldn't shoot reliably at all.

If a couple of mag springs can't collectivity work for 1000 rounds, they're junk.

[Haraise]

If a couple of mag springs can't collectivity work for 1000 rounds, they're junk.

Your reply isn't related to what I said. Settling was, in this case, talked to be about from not shooting. Again, again, I'm talking about reliability issues that come from a low round count, high carry time usage pattern.

If you're wanting to know how magazine springs on a 2011 do with high round counts, well. You could go to a USPSA event and ask about half the people there.

[jetfire]

Your reply isn't related to what I said. Settling was, in this case, talked to be about from not shooting. Again, again, I'm talking about reliability issues that come from a low round count, high carry time usage pattern.

If you're wanting to know how magazine springs on a 2011 do with high round counts, well. You could go to a USPSA event and ask about half the people there.

You mean the events where the top level shooters will quite literally disassemble their magazines and clean them out between stages?

[Haraise]

You mean the events where the top level shooters will quite literally disassemble their magazines and clean them out between stages?

Quite possibly, if that's how you were wanting your test to be set up.

At one extreme there's this test, where they sit loaded, get dirty and knocked around, then shot.

The other, they're cleaned every stage for massive round counts.

It's kind of likely there's at least one person at a USPSA local event that's somewhere between the two?

[jetfire]

Isn't it a science fact that what wears out springs is going through constant compression/decompression cycles? Not just sitting compressed for donkey's years, but actually springing.

[ToddG]

I think we've established pretty clearly that Haraise is trying to demonstrate one thing: that people who said the gun would fail as low round count carry gun simply because it's a 2011 were wrong ...

.. and the readership here at PF is expecting something different: a test involving lots of shooting to prove the gun is reliable enough to carry.

[JV_]

Your reply isn't related to what I said.Sure it is. You said the speculation was they would settle in and not shoot reliably - at all. I'm saying that if they can't shoot reliably after 1K rounds, which is really just a fun weekend on the range, then they're junk.

I think the problem is that I already disagree with all of the theories that you tried to disprove.


Isn't it a science fact that what wears out springs is going through constant compression/decompression cycles? Not just sitting compressed for donkey's years, but actually springing.Exactly.

[JAD]

Isn't it a science fact that what wears out springs is going through constant compression/decompression cycles? Not just sitting compressed for donkey's years, but actually springing.

Nope. A spring which is overstressed can take a set under load. By contrast, a well designed coil spring can cycle a couple of million times without changing force significantly.

[JV_]

A spring which is overstressed can take a set under load.When is a mag spring overstressed?

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I think we've established pretty clearly that Haraise is trying to demonstrate one thing: that people who said the gun would fail as low round count carry gun simply because it's a 2011 were wrong ...

.. and the readership here at PF is expecting something different: a test involving lots of shooting to prove the gun is reliable enough to carry.

It certainly does demonstrate part 1 of the above.

I don't know anyone who thought that was the big question but of course that doesn't mean that people like that don't exist.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

[JAD]

When is a mag spring overstressed?

When it's compressed to too great a percentage of its yield limit, which is a function of design and material. I think the accusation hairaise referred to is that 2011 springs are inherently overstressed when the mags are fully loaded, because they're designed beyond their limits. Which, sample size of a couple, she disproved at least to her satisfaction.

[BWT]

When it's compressed to too great a percentage of its yield limit, which is a function of design and material. I think the accusation hairaise referred to is that 2011 springs are inherently overstressed when the mags are fully loaded, because they're designed beyond their limits. Which, sample size of a couple, she disproved at least to her satisfaction.

Yes!!!!! This is pertinent to my interests!

[GardoneVT]

I think we've established pretty clearly that Haraise is trying to demonstrate one thing: that people who said the gun would fail as low round count carry gun simply because it's a 2011 were wrong ...

.. and the readership here at PF is expecting something different: a test involving lots of shooting to prove the gun is reliable enough to carry.

Indeed.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but nothing the OPs posted regarding the 2011 represents a real piece of actionable news. My Beretta 92 carry pistol has 2750 rounds on the clock, had only one stoppage, and has been my EDC almost since I bought it in 2012. I even carried it at my friends home as a home defense pistol in LA last week, CCW being illegal for non residents.

Yet, I've posted no tickertape parade thread because that's just what a gun is SUPPOSED TO DO. 1000 rounds to the practiced shooter isnt a major accomplishment. There's a YouTube video now of a Tarurus 1911 burning through that much in one 10 minute sitting- and his gun didn't need new mags either.

Now, I'm not Mr. Peanut, being a vet student and all, but I can still scrape up enough money to run at least 100 rounds per month at the range. Sometimes in the summer it's more then that as I don't have to drive to an indoor range, but lets stick to 100. X 12 that equals 1200 rounds a year. We're already 200 rounds past the OPs benchmark , and that's just a years worth of shooting.

Some classes burn that much in one weekend.

I get the sense the OPs post is like a kid at a car meet bragging his tuned, homebuilt turbocharged Accord managed to drive itself 10 miles to the meet without breaking down. I'll gladly revise my opinion if the OP comes back with a 2000 round test which adheres to the test rules.

[Tamara]

Isn't it a science fact that what wears out springs is going through constant compression/decompression cycles? Not just sitting compressed for donkey's years, but actually springing.

As an aside on this topic, when I got my Pro, it came with the then-customary 5 Wilson 47Ds. Three of those mags had springs that were all broke-dick and noticeably shorter than there replacements and caused mondo feeding problems. I don't know how many times they'd been cycled, and I also don't know how long they'd been full of the eight rounds they had in 'em when the dude traded 'em in. Either:


1) There was too much spring for that length of tube and they were compressed beyond their limits with eight rounds or,
b) Wilson got sold a bad batch of springs there in '99 or '00.

(Incidentally, the replacement Wilson factory springs I swapped in back in '01 are still in those mags, so take that for what it's worth. Then again, I only keep seven rounds in them out of superstition as much as anything else.)

[Dagga Boy]

As an aside on this topic, when I got my Pro, it came with the then-customary 5 Wilson 47Ds. Three of those mags had springs that were all broke-dick and noticeably shorter than there replacements and caused mondo feeding problems. I don't know how many times they'd been cycled, and I also don't know how long they'd been full of the eight rounds they had in 'em when the dude traded 'em in. Either:


1) There was too much spring for that length of tube and they were compressed beyond their limits with eight rounds or,
b) Wilson got sold a bad batch of springs there in '99 or '00.

(Incidentally, the replacement Wilson factory springs I swapped in back in '01 are still in those mags, so take that for what it's worth. Then again, I only keep seven rounds in them out of superstition as much as anything else.)

That isn't possible. Troll......;)

Every time I have said that I had a bunch of issues with 47D's, it was another "burn the witch" moment.

[Tamara]

That isn't possible. Troll......;)

Every time I have said that I had a bunch of issues with 47D's, it was another "burn the witch" moment.

I love 47Ds. They're my preferred magazine and about all I'll use. I like how you can put eight rounds in them temporarily so you don't have to top the mag up after you chamber the first one. ;)

[Dagga Boy]

Like you I didn't have problems with all of them..........or I wouldn't have bought them in the first place as they were my normal 1911 magazines. With that said, I have gotten enough that had issues to have lost confidence in them as being "problem free", and put them in the "keep an eye on them" status.

[ToddG]

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but nothing the OPs posted regarding the 2011 represents a real piece of actionable news.

Yes, you're missing the part where the OP said folks challenged the assertion that the gun would be functional under the exact conditions to which it's been subjected, regardless of whether the PF masses think those conditions are harsh or not.

To steal your analogy, if a bunch of kids told you your homebuilt turbocharged Accord could not possibly drive itself 10 miles to the car meet without breaking down and it in fact did successfully get there and back home without a problem, you'd be justified in saying "neener neener, toldyaso." It may still leave everyone unimpressed but that doesn't change the fact that it achieved something that was claimed impossible.

[HopetonBrown]

I don't understand this thread.

Okay, now I do. His gun made it through 13 months of carry, with about 70 rounds downrange a month. Got it. For a lot of people that's probably considered a lot.

[45dotACP]

I don't understand this thread.

Okay, now I do. His gun made it through 13 months of carry, with about 70 rounds downrange a month. Got it. For a lot of people that's probably considered a lot.

For probably 90% of the shooting community* that is a lot of ammo to put through a gun. Carrying the gun to the competitions that get the round count up to past 2,000 rounds would be worthy of a little more of a hat tip. That said, I think there was a 2011 that made the 2,000 round test successfully no? It can be done, and if the gun does do it...that's great!

Sidenote: I bought precisely one Wilson 47D and found that metalforms are cheaper and ETM HD/+P's are more durable...so the 47D experiment is henceforth halted indefinitely.

*this was measured in pessimism and bitterness, not science.

[Mark]

After having read through a couple different gun forums tonight.....I have to ask, why are people on gun forums so condescending and generally rude to others they perceive to be inferior to them for whatever reason? Is the internet always destined to bring out the worst in people?

If you think his test has merit learn from it what you can. If it confuses you ask what questions are necessary to understand. If you think it's not valid or worthwhile......pass on by. There's no reason for the snark, I thought I got out of junior high a couple of decades ago.

[JAD]

springs that were all broke-dick and noticeably shorter. Either:


1) There was too much spring for that length of tube and they were compressed beyond their limits with eight rounds or,
b) Wilson got sold a bad batch of springs there in '99 or '00.

Good example. We can guess the 47D spring is nearer its limits than a 7 round spring, for example, and would be less tolerant of additional stress from load over time, temperature, or other contributors to stress relaxation. It is not my non-gun-related, real-coils-not-these-weird-rectangular-loops experience that cycling within limits causes stress relaxation; cycling causes fatigue, and fatigue failure in springs is a break. It is worth pointing out that I have 47Ds that have been loaded with 8 rounds since 1997 or so, that work fine. That would suggest that some 47D springs are good and some not so good, which again in my barely relevant experience would suggest either changes in design or supply.

[BLR]

Good example. We can guess the 47D spring is nearer its limits than a 7 round spring, for example, and would be less tolerant of additional stress from load over time, temperature, or other contributors to stress relaxation. It is not my non-gun-related, real-coils-not-these-weird-rectangular-loops experience that cycling within limits causes stress relaxation; cycling causes fatigue, and fatigue failure in springs is a break. It is worth pointing out that I have 47Ds that have been loaded with 8 rounds since 1997 or so, that work fine. That would suggest that some 47D springs are good and some not so good, which again in my barely relevant experience would suggest either changes in design or supply.

Many (most) of the springs in the firearms world are "as drawn" 1095 steel. Which is the archetypical "spring steel." The problem is, non tempered (great example, the straw tempered rectangular wire in the new HD ETMs) tend to naturally stress relieve over time, which is what JAD is talking about.

Will finish this in a couple hours.

[JAD]

Will finish this in a couple hours.

Popcorn for breakfast.

In my world, incidentally, the archetypical 'spring steel' is SWP-B.

[LittleLebowski]

I get the sense the OPs post is like a kid at a car meet bragging his tuned, homebuilt turbocharged Accord managed to drive itself 10 miles to the meet without breaking down.

I didn't get that impression at all.

[Tamara]

I get where Haraise is coming from, really. Say "2011" (or STI/SVI or whatever other generic slang term means "plastic-subframed double-stacked 1911-based racegun" in your circle) and people start talking like they're some kind of exotic electro-mechanical hybrid full of tiny Swiss watch parts that will break down if you look at it crosseyed or attempt to fire it anywhere that doesn't have some guy with a PACT timer standing behind your shoulder* and not, you know, just a 1911 with a fat plastic magwell.

Just like a regular 1911, it's certainly possible to build a crappy one that doesn't work, but it's also possible to build a good one that runs just fine.


*I have heard the ridiculous analogy that "If a 1911 is a Mustang, then a 2011 is like a Formula 1 car," as though it would break in half if you drove it off a track. No, Einstein, if a 1911 is a Mustang, then a 2011 is a Mustang with a big gas tank, that's all.

[FotoTomas]

I get where Haraise is coming from, really. Say "2011" (or STI/SVI or whatever other generic slang term means "plastic-subframed double-stacked 1911-based racegun" in your circle) and people start talking like they're some kind of exotic electro-mechanical hybrid full of tiny Swiss watch parts that will break down if you look at it crosseyed or attempt to fire it anywhere that doesn't have some guy with a PACT timer standing behind your shoulder* and not, you know, just a 1911 with a fat plastic magwell.

Just like a regular 1911, it's certainly possible to build a crappy one that doesn't work, but it's also possible to build a good one that runs just fine.


*I have heard the ridiculous analogy that "If a 1911 is a Mustang, then a 2011 is like a Formula 1 car," as though it would break in half if you drove it off a track. No, Einstein, if a 1911 is a Mustang, then a 2011 is a Mustang with a big gas tank, that's all.

That nails it!

[Lomshek]

I get where Haraise is coming from, really. Say "2011" (or STI/SVI or whatever other generic slang term means "plastic-subframed double-stacked 1911-based racegun" in your circle) and people start talking like they're some kind of exotic electro-mechanical hybrid full of tiny Swiss watch parts that will break down if you look at it crosseyed or attempt to fire it anywhere that doesn't have some guy with a PACT timer standing behind your shoulder* and not, you know, just a 1911 with a fat plastic magwell.

Just like a regular 1911, it's certainly possible to build a crappy one that doesn't work, but it's also possible to build a good one that runs just fine.


*I have heard the ridiculous analogy that "If a 1911 is a Mustang, then a 2011 is like a Formula 1 car," as though it would break in half if you drove it off a track. No, Einstein, if a 1911 is a Mustang, then a 2011 is a Mustang with a big gas tank, that's all.

And good job to Haraise for demonstrating that a properly built 2011 with quality known good mags does not need to be detail stripped every time it sees a dusty day or a little belly button lint.

With so many builders of 2011's there's no doubt that you get phenomenal ones and turds and the poorly built ones running on the edge of the performance envelope are where the "fragile mechanism" rep comes from.

[BLR]

Popcorn for breakfast.

In my world, incidentally, the archetypical 'spring steel' is SWP-B.

Heh.

There are, as Caleb and JAD pointed out, two mechanisms available to give springs a horrible, premature death. One is a material issue, and the other a design issue.

From the material angle, as Caleb pointed out, the un-annealed, non stress relieved, cheap as dirt music wire springs that we all know and love are not as tolerant to repeated high strain rate use. Read that as recoil spring and mag spring use, with the most telling example being the mag. Until WC came out with the rectangular tempered, passivated wire, each time the spring was used, it shortened a measurable amount. This is how a typical 1911 mag fails. No metal can elastically deform 100%. And with increasing strain rate, the deformation becomes more and more. That's why valve springs on a 302 can be used millions upon millions of cycles without issue, but a few hundred full loadings of a Shooting Star or Cobra result in weaker and weaker force on that last round. That's also why the 7 round GI type mags almost never have trouble - significantly less strain with 7 rounds vs 8. Doing things like using tempered wire as opposed to as drawn wire will help this markedly.

The second way to kill a mag spring is to over strain it. 2011 style race mags that have coils clipped off to make room for an extra round are the example here. This is a simple situation, one where you are much closer to the "knee" on a stress strain curve, and the act of loading the mag once will significantly alter its geometry as you've to a more significant degree exceeded its "elastic" window.

Strain is what kills mag springs. Can be repeated or single strain events. Multiple strains are a cumulative process.

And it doesn't matter what the geometry of the spring is - flat or round wire. Flat just is a bending strain, where round wire is a torsional strain.

The 2011's reputation for finicky mags comes from trying to stuff too many rounds into the tube, not as a result of the spring or tube or follower. They follow the same physics as any other mag.

[45dotACP]

The 2011's reputation for finicky mags comes from trying to stuff too many rounds into the tube, not as a result of the spring or tube or follower. They follow the same physics as any other mag.

+1
But wait, you mean to tell me that when you start running a bunch of home brew mods to a gun you can compromise reliability? Quelle Surprise!

[Haraise]

After having read through a couple different gun forums tonight.....I have to ask, why are people on gun forums so condescending and generally rude to others they perceive to be inferior to them for whatever reason? Is the internet always destined to bring out the worst in people?

If you think his test has merit learn from it what you can. If it confuses you ask what questions are necessary to understand. If you think it's not valid or worthwhile......pass on by. There's no reason for the snark, I thought I got out of junior high a couple of decades ago.

It seems, to me at least, to follow most forum arguments.

What's important to one person becomes the standard by which they judge everything else. There's understandably a lot of pride for people in being a high volume shooter, and that's great, but sometimes that kind of pride can lead to arguments with people talking about anything else.

See it on vehicle forums, where people who want more power are mocked by people who want more miles per gallon, and they're mocked by people who claim the stock engineering was tested/developed more so what's really important is how long the engine lasts, etc. High volume shooters, competition, people who bury their glocks and fire them, or just people who want to only clean their gun once a year and ignore a pocket J frame while looking down on regular shooters as unreasonably focused on a low probability event (self defense). Just seems like a general kind of pattern, what's important is good, what isn't important is treated with a bit less respect.

[Tamara]

Good post, there. :)

[FotoTomas]

I agree!

[Zeroptsdown]

It seems, to me at least, to follow most forum arguments.

What's important to one person becomes the standard by which they judge everything else. There's understandably a lot of pride for people in being a high volume shooter, and that's great, but sometimes that kind of pride can lead to arguments with people talking about anything else.

See it on vehicle forums, where people who want more power are mocked by people who want more miles per gallon, and they're mocked by people who claim the stock engineering was tested/developed more so what's really important is how long the engine lasts, etc. High volume shooters, competition, people who bury their glocks and fire them, or just people who want to only clean their gun once a year and ignore a pocket J frame while looking down on regular shooters as unreasonably focused on a low probability event (self defense). Just seems like a general kind of pattern, what's important is good, what isn't important is treated with a bit less respect.

I get and understood exactly what you have done with the test. :)

[Haraise]

Here's my stupid little unreliable broken down turbo garage Accord after a bit more wear (there's no stainless on the safety, just entirely wore away the finish). It's been good, and I'm getting ready to jump into USPSA with it.

3329

After carrying much, shooting some, cleaning little, it's been good. Time to test it with some higher volumes of fire.

[SLG]

I will admit, I'm still a bit baffled, but to each his (her) own. The only part of the this thread I'd like to comment on regards the legions of competition shooters who have shot 10's of thousands of reliable rds through their 2011's. Having shot a few competitions, and having been around a few competition shooters, I have seen these guns and the others like them choke on a regular basis. I have not done a scientific study of it, and I'm sure there is someone whose gun has not choked, but my observation is that many of them choke pretty regularly. However, there are too many variables among personally owned guns to draw any real conclusions, so I'll just add that the military tried to get these guns to run. Tried really, really hard. They were unsuccessful. But adopted some anyway. They went away very quickly.

[Haraise]

I will admit, I'm still a bit baffled, but to each his (her) own. The only part of the this thread I'd like to comment on regards the legions of competition shooters who have shot 10's of thousands of reliable rds through their 2011's. Having shot a few competitions, and having been around a few competition shooters, I have seen these guns and the others like them choke on a regular basis. I have not done a scientific study of it, and I'm sure there is someone whose gun has not choked, but my observation is that many of them choke pretty regularly. However, there are too many variables among personally owned guns to draw any real conclusions, so I'll just add that the military tried to get these guns to run. Tried really, really hard. They were unsuccessful. But adopted some anyway. They went away very quickly.

Yeah, lots of tweaked guns choke. Especially when it comes to guns where you can, and people often do tweak every aspect of them. As far as putting a 2011 as an issued weapon, I'd never suggest that. It's very much a LCD kind of situation, and these guns are not that. For a carry gun? Can be set up correctly. For a comp gun? Can be set up correct. And it's expensive. Expensive expensive to get it set up right. I wouldn't get into a 'know I'm going to bet my life on it every day' 1911 under about 2800$, and a 2011, well, probably closer to 4000$ (Wilson Combat and SVI). That's not going to fly well either. More metal to metal means more lube, more regularly, spring changes being on time (even if seldom needed, flat wire) is important, lots of things that just often aren't cared for en masse. The ability to make a big pile of bits and make a new assortment of guns, not so much either.

This isn't a combat gun. It's not a department gun. But it's been a hell of a carry gun, and since no one is paying me to go down range, I'm okay with that.

[SLG]

This isn't a combat gun. It's not a department gun. But it's been a hell of a carry gun, and since no one is paying me to go down range, I'm okay with that.

So I guess the question is, why is it a hell of a carry gun? It has been shot very little, so great shootability wouldn't seem to be the reason. It is very expensive and probably heavier than a G17/19 (as an example). If you are just going to carry it a lot and shoot it a little, what's the advantage? A G19 or 26 would seem to be a better choice since it is smaller and lighter, and your per trigger pull cost is exponentially less. Do you get what I'm saying or am I not explaining myself well?

[Haraise]

So I guess the question is, why is it a hell of a carry gun? It has been shot very little, so great shootability wouldn't seem to be the reason. It is very expensive and probably heavier than a G17/19 (as an example). If you are just going to carry it a lot and shoot it a little, what's the advantage? A G19 or 26 would seem to be a better choice since it is smaller and lighter, and your per trigger pull cost is exponentially less. Do you get what I'm saying or am I not explaining myself well?

No, it makes perfect sense. Absolutely. If you're talking price per trigger pull, it's absolutely the wrong gun. If that's your priority, this is the wrong thread. :) It just doesn't happen to be my priority.

As far as why I think it's a great carry gun, it makes me happy. Same reason if I had to choose a food to be my daily companion, like this gun, it'd be steak over ramen. I like it. If I had to choose a bed to be part of my every day life, it'd be a nice mattress instead of a cot. Sure, my cost per sleep or cost per eat would be higher, and people would say I was likely being foolish.

It all comes down to what makes a person happy. Quality of life. Some people like squeezing the last miles out of a 300,000 mile Geo Metro. Some people like to cruise in a new Lexus. By every account, the Lexus guy is retarded. Aren't they both going the same place, and one is spending a lot more getting there? Just going to quote myself, not sure if I can try to speak intelligently right now better than this (sleep dep, sickness, healing injury), sorry. It was talking to a friend who likes a form of art, but was being shamed that art isn't practical enough.

"Blended screws aren't stupid. It's a great touch. It's the kind of craftsmanship that means you're using art instead of just pure bottom dollar cheapest contractor shit. Art keeps the spirit aflame. Holding, using art is more important than the fraction of a fraction of a fraction gain you get with anything they talk about. Rifles, handguns. Being able to run hands over something and love life for it. Cars, computers, the people you surround yourself with, anything. Filling your life with love is never silly, don't let anyone tell you blending screws to metal isn't functional. There's nothing more functional in this world than being happy."

And getting interested, is why I have a silly difficult goal, to try and get to a Master (a probably impossibly high goal) ranking in USPSA now. Because I found something I loved doing, and that drove me.

[SLG]

I definitely didn't mean that cost was what mattered, just that an expensive gun with lots of features to presumably help you shoot better, that doesn't actually get shot much, seems to be no better a carry gun than anything more mundane. In fact, a proven abuse /neglect tolerant gun, like a glock, would seem to be a better carry gun, since it seems that the shootability isn't really a factor.

Now that you mention making master, I have to say that gun set up is not a competitive setup, and much like Doc's tricked out 9 in the other thread, is certainly not ideal for competition. I don't kno how well you shoot, but I think you will find it about impossible to make master with that setup. You'll have to shoot in Open, and that gun, though it has a dot sight, and I assume the threaded barrel is for a comp, will not hang with the real open guns.

I'm not a big art guy, can we get a couple of good pics of the gun, out of the shadows? It looks like a fun piece, regardless of practicality.

[SLG]

Thanks Tom. I do remember that thread now. It is a good looking gun, and I'm sure its fun to shoot. Haraise, send it to me and I'll give it a 50,000 rd test;-)

[Haraise]

I definitely didn't mean that cost was what mattered, just that an expensive gun with lots of features to presumably help you shoot better, that doesn't actually get shot much, seems to be no better a carry gun than anything more mundane. In fact, a proven abuse /neglect tolerant gun, like a glock, would seem to be a better carry gun, since it seems that the shootability isn't really a factor.

Now that you mention making master, I have to say that gun set up is not a competitive setup, and much like Doc's tricked out 9 in the other thread, is certainly not ideal for competition. I don't kno how well you shoot, but I think you will find it about impossible to make master with that setup. You'll have to shoot in Open, and that gun, though it has a dot sight, and I assume the threaded barrel is for a comp, will not hang with the real open guns.

I'm not a big art guy, can we get a couple of good pics of the gun, out of the shadows? It looks like a fun piece, regardless of practicality.


Thanks Tom. I do remember that thread now. It is a good looking gun, and I'm sure its fun to shoot. Haraise, send it to me and I'll give it a 50,000 rd test;-)

SLG, I think if you go to USPSA, you'll find that most people aren't trying to get to Master, with their carry gun. I didn't see that DocGKR was trying to get to Master with an open G19, either. Nor did I say this gun would get me to Master. There's a lot of me to fix before the gun is the biggest concern, though. Keep thinking I want to go into single stack, maybe minor for competition. Fits my hands way better. Going to need more time at the range with Ms. Keehart and Ms. Leatham to learn from what works for them first.

This is a carry test. Not a high volume test. Not a 'this is a gun we all know is proven' test. If you want to see people talking about how great it is that a Glock can fire without lube and covered in mud, more power to you, but you clicked on the wrong thread title for that. :) If you don't get that some people like to have things that inspire them, that's great. But I've already covered the motivation. Art. Motivation. Desire. Happiness.

If I wanted a 50,000 round test, I'd have done it already. :)

[SLG]

Nor did I say this gun would get me to Master. There's a lot of me to fix before the gun is the biggest concern, though. Keep thinking I want to go into single stack, maybe minor for competition. Fits my hands way better. Going to need more time at the range with Ms. Keehart and Ms. Leatham to learn from what works for them first.


I'm tracking now, I hope it all works out for you.

[GJM]

SLG, I think if you go to USPSA, you'll find that most people aren't trying to get to Master, with their carry gun. I didn't see that DocGKR was trying to get to Master with an open G19, either. Nor did I say this gun would get me to Master. There's a lot of me to fix before the gun is the biggest concern, though. Keep thinking I want to go into single stack, maybe minor for competition. Fits my hands way better. Going to need more time at the range with Ms. Keehart and Ms. Leatham to learn from what works for them first.

This is a carry test. Not a high volume test. Not a 'this is a gun we all know is proven' test. If you want to see people talking about how great it is that a Glock can fire without lube and covered in mud, more power to you, but you clicked on the wrong thread title for that. :) If you don't get that some people like to have things that inspire them, that's great. But I've already covered the motivation. Art. Motivation. Desire. Happiness.

If I wanted a 50,000 round test, I'd have done it already. :)

Kippi shoots an XDM 5.25 in Production and Debbie a STI .40 in Limited.

There are a number of folks on PF trying to make M with their carry guns. It is more difficult, but I think GM is where it gets especially hard for most. I read Bob Vogel made GM in Open shooting an iron sighted G17, and if true, reinforces it is the Indian.

[Haraise]

Kippi shoots an XDM 5.25 in Production and Debbie a STI .40 in Limited.

There are a number of folks on PF trying to make M with their carry guns. It is more difficult, but I think GM is where it gets especially hard for most. I read Bob Vogel made GM in Open shooting an iron sighted G17, and if true, reinforces it is the Indian.

Yeah, was talking with Debbie about her STI... it was kind of fun to have someone with a similar gun. Gotta try that grip fuzz on my gun now, though. :)

I probably just need every edge I can get to try and have an M though!