The four safety rules, among others,,,, a failure well illustrated.

[Chuck Haggard]

ND, self inflicted contact shot with 12 gauge to the leg.

Gory, and likely NSFW;

http://ryanjarcy.wordpress.com/2013/03/31/how-i-blew-off-a-leg-with-a-12-gauge-shotgun-part-one/

[Al T.]

Spaghetti for dinner! :eek:

[Casual Friday]

Holy kittens.

[JRB]

Somehow, I knew it'd be a pistol-grip-only Mossberg before I even clicked the link.

[Totem Polar]

damn.

[Chuck Haggard]

Paul Howe told me about one of his guys getting pretty much the same injury from letting a breeching gun hang on the sling, safety off, round in the chamber. This can happen to even really squared away dudes.

[Stephen]

Paul Howe told me about one of his guys getting pretty much the same injury from letting a breeching gun hang on the sling, safety off, round in the chamber. This can happen to even really squared away dudes.

Absolutely. I meet a guy who did similar to his foot. Birdshot at near-contact distance. I don't know him well, but didn't seem like a dope. And I'm certain he grew up with guns. To the guys making wisecracks: have you ever locked your keys in your car? Every one of us is fully capable of making a dumb split-second mistake. I read as many of these stories as I can. There are always lessons to be learned, and its a reminder that these incidents do happen.

[Tamara]

I didn't go look at the pics. I've had quite enough bones-hanging-out-of-the-leg in my life already, thankyouverymuch.

[TR675]

To the guys making wisecracks: have you ever locked your keys in your car? Every one of us is fully capable of making a dumb split-second mistake. I read as many of these stories as I can. There are always lessons to be learned, and its a reminder that these incidents do happen.

Cannot agree more.

[Lomshek]

There's a long discussion on arf (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1602914_How_I_Shot_My_Leg_Off_with_a_Shotgun____Gr aphic.html&page=1) about this with the guy himself chiming in.

[Totem Polar]

Not sure who's making wisecracks: the potential for this stuff is as serious as a Dick Cheney heart attack.

[Lester Polfus]

That's a good reminder that these gun things we are always talking about can really hurt you.

For those of you going to the Arfcom link, the guy who shot hisself doesn't show up until page 4, so you can skip several pages of stupid. He hasn't added much to the facts with what he says, but he does have one hell of a sense of humor.

[Misfire McCoy]

That's a good reminder that these gun things we are always talking about can really hurt you.

For those of you going to the Arfcom link, the guy who shot hisself doesn't show up until page 4, so you can skip several pages of stupid. He hasn't added much to the facts with what he says, but he does have one hell of a sense of humor.

Thank you! I try and keep upbeat about it- gotta laugh or cry in situations like that, and crying hasn't solved anything for me. As I was being wheeled into the ER on a gurney, the two nurses pulling me kept asking me to stay awake, as I kept losing consciousness and they had to poke my wound to jolt me awake so I could survive the trip. I had pissed myself, was a hot mess of blood and lead and thus had my clothes cut off of me prior to getting admitted to MRH, and one of the EMTs has the foresight to lay my phone on my chest. "Is that to call your mom, honey?" asked the nurse on the left. To this day I feel silly as I type this, but somehow I was able to stutter out "YESPICKITUPTAKEAPICTURE! PLEASE!" The other nurse turned to look, making a "WTF" face, as she asked me what I had said. "JUST TAKE A PICTURE I'LL TAG YOU ON FACEBOOK THIS ONLY HAPPENS ONCE IN MY LIFE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!" I belted out. I swear on all this, and I have no idea how they both understood me and how getting a damn photo on my iPhone was where my mind went to joke the pain down a bit. Anyway, that's where those grisly pictures came from.

I really, really appreciate the support from y'all, and the wisecracks are just trolls being trolls. I'd like to add any facts that I've missed- of which are sure there are a few- so go ahead and shoot (just not the other leg, please) me any questions. There are several personal omissions that I'd like to add, but I need the blessing of those involved to do so in a public space before I edit or revise anything.

[Slavex]

Dude, thank you for the open and honest post. I read it and it's something I will be sharing with everyone I know.
I have a good friend who did similar at a 3 gun match while reloading his shotgun. He only (I say only, but really is it?) blew his calf off, and they managed to keep the foot. But he, like you, will have a scar there for the rest of his life and a constant reminder of how important it is to not make this kind of mistake. And yet, as others have said, mistakes happen. Again thank you for the blog post.

[peterb]

Thank you for helping us learn from your mistake.

This is a good reminder for me to do more dry shotgun practice, and make sure the safety goes on as soon as the muzzle comes off target.

I found the stock Mossberg safety button to be too slippery to operate comfortably, and replaced it with one that's easier to use.

[SGT_Calle]

Welcome to the forum dude! Thank you for sharing your story.
Also, holy cow.

[TR675]

I think this calls into question some common shotgun practices.

I used to store my shotgun "cruiser ready" with tube loaded, chamber empty, hammer down, and safety off. Judging from advice on the internet, this is fairly common. More recently I've started storing it with the safety on - it's very easy to just hit the safety regardless, so why not?

Mostly I made this change because I wanted to ingrain "safety on" as the default at all times the shotgun isn't on target after I found myself heading back to the line with a slung (albeit empty) shotgun off-safe. Gave me the willies. This is maybe slightly more complicated with an 870 than with a Mossberg because re-engaging a cross-block safety is not the most ergonomic thing in the world. But making "safety-on" the default and making the act of engaging it second nature just seems like an all-around solid idea...

[TGS]

To this day I feel silly as I type this, but somehow I was able to stutter out "YESPICKITUPTAKEAPICTURE! PLEASE!" The other nurse turned to look, making a "WTF" face, as she asked me what I had said. "JUST TAKE A PICTURE I'LL TAG YOU ON FACEBOOK THIS ONLY HAPPENS ONCE IN MY LIFE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!" I belted out. I swear on all this, and I have no idea how they both understood me and how getting a damn photo on my iPhone was where my mind went to joke the pain down a bit. Anyway, that's where those grisly pictures came from.


Misfire McCoy,

I had the same reaction when I went to an ED with 9cm of my skull showing.

Me: "Bro (looking at the tech), can you take a cell phone pic of this and text it to me?"

Tech: "Uhmmm.....I don't think I can do that. HIPAA...."

Me: "Screw HIPAA, man, this shit is awesome. I want it for posterity."

RN interjecting, while laughing: "We can't even believe you're conscious right now. Are you for real?"

***doctor pokes wound, blood spurts 5 feet***

Me: Yup!

I got ma' damn pitchur.

ETA:

I thought this was the bestest comment in the ARFCOM thread: "Will NOT Buff Out."

[Jack Ryan]

I think this calls into question some common shotgun practices.

I used to store my shotgun "cruiser ready" with tube loaded, chamber empty, hammer down, and safety off. Judging from advice on the internet, this is fairly common. More recently I've started storing it with the safety on - it's very easy to just hit the safety regardless, so why not?

Mostly I made this change because I wanted to ingrain "safety on" as the default at all times the shotgun isn't on target after I found myself heading back to the line with a slung (albeit empty) shotgun off-safe. Gave me the willies. This is maybe slightly more complicated with an 870 than with a Mossberg because re-engaging a cross-block safety is not the most ergonomic thing in the world. But making "safety-on" the default and making the act of engaging it second nature just seems like an all-around solid idea...

Safeties are not safe. Especially with shotguns and X 10 at shooting events. Action open is safe, NOTHING else is safe. If you are not at the line ready to shoot, that action should be open. Period.

[Tamara]

Mostly I made this change because I wanted to ingrain "safety on" as the default at all times the shotgun isn't on target after I found myself heading back to the line with a slung (albeit empty) shotgun off-safe. Gave me the willies. This is maybe slightly more complicated with an 870 than with a Mossberg because re-engaging a cross-block safety is not the most ergonomic thing in the world.

This is actually one of the main reasons my 870 is unlikely to replace my M4gery as my go-to house long gun.

[TR675]

Safeties are not safe. Especially with shotguns and X 10 at shooting events. Action open is safe, NOTHING else is safe. If you are not at the line ready to shoot, that action should be open. Period.

So...I should not engage the safety whenever I'm not ready to shoot?

Perhaps I should clarify that I was practing on my own, not at an event, and my action was (almost certainly) open because that's the way it stays when the gun is empty anyway - but I'm still not seeing how "safety-on" all the time is a bad thing. :confused:

[GardoneVT]

After my last close call under similar circumstances (bad guy running away), I was shaking like a Parkinson's victim for a good ten minutes after the self defense incident.

It makes a compelling argument to carry handguns with heavier triggers and/or decockers.

[TCinVA]

Paul Howe told me about one of his guys getting pretty much the same injury from letting a breeching gun hang on the sling, safety off, round in the chamber. This can happen to even really squared away dudes.

A while back somebody on a SWAT team center-punched a senior citizen they leaned over. M4 off-safe, left to hang on the sling caught on some bit of gear, and BOOM...dead senior citizen.

[Lomshek]

Safeties are not safe. Especially with shotguns and X 10 at shooting events. Action open is safe, NOTHING else is safe. If you are not at the line ready to shoot, that action should be open. Period.

Sporting events are different than a gun kept for "social" purposes. Any gun I keep ready for defense is the kept in the same condition; chamber loaded & all safeties engaged.

As in Misfire McCoy's case (kudos for publicizing this) a gun habitually kept safety off, chamber empty tends to stay safety off even after chambering a round because one is not conditioned to use the safety at all.

[TR675]

Sporting events are different than a gun kept for "social" purposes. Any gun I keep ready for defense is the kept in the same condition; chamber loaded & all safeties engaged.

As in Misfire McCoy's case (kudos for publicizing this) a gun habitually kept safety off, chamber empty tends to stay safety off even after chambering a round because one is not conditioned to use the safety at all.

The second part of your post I completely agree with. The first post is where I've got questions. Wouldn't habitually not engaging the safety in sporting events habituate you to not engage it at other times?

In other words, wouldn't you rather default to safe instead of not safe?

[Al T.]

This is actually one of the main reasons my 870 is unlikely to replace my M4gery as my go-to house long gun.

This is a very interesting thought, that I will have to run a few drills to explore.

[Lomshek]

The second part of your post I completely agree with. The first post is where I've got questions. Wouldn't habitually not engaging the safety in sporting events habituate you to not engage it at other times?

In other words, wouldn't you rather default to safe instead of not safe?

I think Jack Ryan's post specifically was referring to how skeet/clay pigeon long guns are "made safe" when not on the firing line. In pretty much all practical shooting sports it's empty chamber and safety on (if possible or applicable) and chamber flags in long guns.

I agree that unless you always default to safety on and disengage the safety when the conscious decision to shoot has been made you will end up with the safety off when it really ought to be on which jives with the thread about proper safety usage.

[TR675]

I agree that unless you always default to safety on and disengage the safety when the conscious decision to shoot has been made you will end up with the safety off when it really ought to be on which jives with the thread about proper safety usage.

Thanks, this is a better-articulated version of the point I'm trying to argue.

The counter point as I understand it - in this and the other thread - is that in shooting clays it's not cool or necessary to use the safety because the guns are unloaded and open all the time. Which I'm just not grokking.

[Lomshek]

Thanks, this is a better-articulated version of the point I'm trying to argue.

The counter point as I understand it - in this and the other thread - is that in shooting clays it's not cool or necessary to use the safety because the guns are unloaded and open all the time. Which I'm just not grokking.

My issue with the whole "it's unloaded so I can ignore the safety and other safety rules" argument is that folks tend to act that way even when they end up with a loaded gun during a brain fart.

If a guy's strolling around with a broken open double gun I'm not going to yell at him about his muzzle anymore than someone with a disassembled pistol barrel is being unsafe by looking down the muzzle. Someone with an 1100 who has the bolt locked back will not get the same pass any more than I would someone with a slide locked back handgun.

[Chuck Haggard]

I think this calls into question some common shotgun practices.

I used to store my shotgun "cruiser ready" with tube loaded, chamber empty, hammer down, and safety off. Judging from advice on the internet, this is fairly common. More recently I've started storing it with the safety on - it's very easy to just hit the safety regardless, so why not?

Mostly I made this change because I wanted to ingrain "safety on" as the default at all times the shotgun isn't on target after I found myself heading back to the line with a slung (albeit empty) shotgun off-safe. Gave me the willies. This is maybe slightly more complicated with an 870 than with a Mossberg because re-engaging a cross-block safety is not the most ergonomic thing in the world. But making "safety-on" the default and making the act of engaging it second nature just seems like an all-around solid idea...

I don't find using a cross bolt safety any more of an issue than any other safety. It's a training problem.

That my first semi-auto was a Marline model 60 that I bought when I was 12 may have something to do with that though.

[Chuck Haggard]

A while back somebody on a SWAT team center-punched a senior citizen they leaned over. M4 off-safe, left to hang on the sling caught on some bit of gear, and BOOM...dead senior citizen.


It's 2014. Any SWAT team guy running around off-safe is wrong. Any instructor teaching this is a complete and total kittenhead.

It is NOT a valid choice, "the way we do it here", or one way to skin a cat. As Jeff Chudwin well stated, "It's not even up for discussion", as in "should cops sleep with CIs?", or is it a good idea to marry a hooker?, or wash your sleeping pills down with tequila?

Just no.

[Trooper224]

Kudos to the man for turning his tragedy into a PSA. I've seen some pretty squared away and seasoned individuals FUBAR the situation with a moments carelessness, so I won't judge. But wow, he went full Tex Grebner on that one. Last night I sent this to some of my coworkers. Most of them didn't get past the first photo.

[TCinVA]

I've seen some pretty squared away and seasoned individuals FUBAR the situation with a moments carelessness, so I won't judge.

When you hear someone like Kyle Defoor screaming about the safety on your AR while you're moving during a course of fire, rest assured that there is blood behind the volume and intensity of the advice.

Human beings handle weapons and bring their foibles with them while doing so. No amount of training can completely eliminate that. Lots of names famous in the gun world have either had or been present for close calls.

[Tamara]

Kudos to the man for turning his tragedy into a PSA.

Indeed.

[Chuck Haggard]

Indeed.


Agreed, and in more way than one.

I know Mr. Misfire is on this thread now, and don't want to beat the guy up, but the shotgun and training choices made before this event, and the actions taken during the event, are an example of doing everything wrong. Just everything.

Without the self inflicted GSW this may have been written up by most folks as an awesome "there I was post" on many forums.

[KevinB]

I hate crossbolt safeties -- with gloves it is a PITA.

I do not use a safety on a bolt gun or shotgun - mainly as I have been conditioned that way. I use the bolt/slide as a safety, I leave the slide closed on an empty hull after breaching until it is needed again.

Years ago KAC (and I mean years) an aluminum frame 870 with a M4 style safety. While most customers cannot afford the limited lifespan it was a lightweight gun with an ergonomic safety.
I always have wondered why Remington and other companies never followed up with a steel bodied gun with the same type of fire control.


I use a handgun/carbine combo for home defense - for many reasons, however one of those reasons is the safety on the shotty.

[Chuck Haggard]

We use Mossbergs at work, and I have used Mossberg pumps guns since I was like 8 years old. I think the safety is very ergonomic, until one puts a pistol grip on the gun.

My situation may be different that what other folks deal with.


I totally get dudes using a gauge only for breaching letting the gun hang with an empty chamber.

[TR675]

So prompted by this thread I took a look at my 870 with a fresh eye the other night.

A Vang Comp big dome safety makes disengaging the safety no problem. Easy. Reengaging the safety - I just rotate my hand and reengage it with my middle finger. As easy or as positive as an AR, no - and I've never tried it with gloves - but not difficult. You've got to remove your strong hand from the grip, but BFD. Ok, so I need to spend some time with the gun.

Just a reminder to me, as Chuck pointed out, that saddle-time and training are important, and I don't have much with shotguns outside of the skeet range. Time for nyeti to schedule a shotgun class...

[Corlissimo]

I think this calls into question some common shotgun practices.

I used to store my shotgun "cruiser ready" with tube loaded, chamber empty, hammer down, and safety off. Judging from advice on the internet, this is fairly common. More recently I've started storing it with the safety on - it's very easy to just hit the safety regardless, so why not?

Mostly I made this change because I wanted to ingrain "safety on" as the default at all times the shotgun isn't on target after I found myself heading back to the line with a slung (albeit empty) shotgun off-safe. Gave me the willies. This is maybe slightly more complicated with an 870 than with a Mossberg because re-engaging a cross-block safety is not the most ergonomic thing in the world. But making "safety-on" the default and making the act of engaging it second nature just seems like an all-around solid idea...

Totally agree regarding the safety discipline. Like you, I also stored my Moss 590a1 "cruiser ready" but with the safety on. I still do it that way, mainly because the 590a1 can be "bump fired" rather easily. Since it's my HD gun I don't want any rounds in that chamber until I need to use the gun. My logic is that all it takes is a lack of good footing and a drop of the gun in the right way and "BANG". I'd rather not chance that.

[Aray]

Totally agree regarding the safety discipline. Like you, I also stored my Moss 590a1 "cruiser ready" but with the safety on. I still do it that way, mainly because the 590a1 can be "bump fired" rather easily. Since it's my HD gun I don't want any rounds in that chamber until I need to use the gun. My logic is that all it takes is a lack of good footing and a drop of the gun in the right way and "BANG". I'd rather not chance that.

Right, almost all shotguns tend not to be drop safe.

[Urban_Redneck]

We use Mossbergs at work, and I have used Mossberg pumps guns since I was like 8 years old. I think the safety is very ergonomic, until one puts a pistol grip on the gun.


Exactly.

[Dagga Boy]

This is an example of why those safety rules need to be adhered to, to the point of unconscious habit. Otherwise, all the "I'll just do them when I need to" never really works out.

[Tamara]

A Vang Comp big dome safety makes disengaging the safety no problem. Easy. Reengaging the safety - I just rotate my hand and reengage it with my middle finger. As easy or as positive as an AR, no - and I've never tried it with gloves - but not difficult. You've got to remove your strong hand from the grip, but BFD. Ok, so I need to spend some time with the gun.

That's pretty much my view, except that my right thumb is already pretty hep to the idea of safeties, so if Sumdood were to start trying to kick in my door right... now, I'd grab the gun I have a lot more confidence in my ability to run without putting a ton of thought into it. :o

[SeriousStudent]

...... Time for nyeti to schedule a shotgun class...

April 20 in Dallas.

[TR675]

D'oh! What I really meant was "time for nyeti to schedule a shotgun class for a weekend when I don't have other plans."

HiTS really should check my schedule before making theirs, I do declare.

[Dagga Boy]

D'oh! What I really meant was "time for nyeti to schedule a shotgun class for a weekend when I don't have other plans."

HiTS really should check my schedule before making theirs, I do declare.


Being April 20th is Easter, and we have now been consistent on scheduling a holiday class, we are moving the Adv. First Responder and the Shotgun class to May 24/25......does that help:)

[SeriousStudent]

Being April 20th is Easter, and we have now been consistent on scheduling a holiday class, we are moving the Adv. First Responder and the Shotgun class to May 24/25......does that help:)

But I was going to shoot bunnies.... :(

[Chuck Whitlock]

We use Mossbergs at work, and I have used Mossberg pumps guns since I was like 8 years old. I think the safety is very ergonomic, until one puts a pistol grip on the gun.


My logic is that all it takes is a lack of good footing and a drop of the gun in the right way and "BANG". I'd rather not chance that.


Right, almost all shotguns tend not to be drop safe.

I always thought that the Mossberg 590DA1 with the DA trigger was a great idea...too bad it never caught on.

[TR675]

Being April 20th is Easter, and we have now been consistent on scheduling a holiday class, we are moving the Adv. First Responder and the Shotgun class to May 24/25......does that help:)

It might!

[Lester Polfus]

That's pretty much my view, except that my right thumb is already pretty hep to the idea of safeties, so if Sumdood were to start trying to kick in my door right... now, I'd grab the gun I have a lot more confidence in my ability to run without putting a ton of thought into it. :o

Zactly. I've gotten very used to the idea that my index finger is my finger that makes things go bang, and my thumb is what puts the safety on and off. It was that way with my M9, 5906, 1911, CZ-75, and AR15, so when I went shotgun shopping that was one of the main reasons I bought a 590.

[Jack Ryan]

So...I should not engage the safety whenever I'm not ready to shoot?

Perhaps I should clarify that I was practing on my own, not at an event, and my action was (almost certainly) open because that's the way it stays when the gun is empty anyway - but I'm still not seeing how "safety-on" all the time is a bad thing. :confused:

I never said it was a bad thing. I said it "is not safe".

If having it on all the time makes YOU think it is safe and act like it is safe, then well I suppose it is a bad thing.

[Jack Ryan]

Sporting events are different than a gun kept for "social" purposes. Any gun I keep ready for defense is the kept in the same condition; chamber loaded & all safeties engaged.

As in Misfire McCoy's case (kudos for publicizing this) a gun habitually kept safety off, chamber empty tends to stay safety off even after chambering a round because one is not conditioned to use the safety at all.

You are absolutely correct but at the same time any gun that needs to be absolutely safe should be treated the same at a sporting event, socialy, or at home. The difference being at home, you do what ever you want to do. MisFireMccoy did. Good for him.

[TR675]

I never said it was a bad thing. I said it "is not safe".

If having it on all the time makes YOU think it is safe and act like it is safe, then well I suppose it is a bad thing.

Good advice, and I'll certainly reconsider my previous practice of muzzling the next door day-care playground with my on-safe firearms.

[Jack Ryan]

I think Jack Ryan's post specifically was referring to how skeet/clay pigeon long guns are "made safe" when not on the firing line. In pretty much all practical shooting sports it's empty chamber and safety on (if possible or applicable) and chamber flags in long guns.

I agree that unless you always default to safety on and disengage the safety when the conscious decision to shoot has been made you will end up with the safety off when it really ought to be on which jives with the thread about proper safety usage.

The point of an open action at sporting events is the same as the barrel flags, just about any one who can see the gun from any where, can also see the gun is safe and not a danger to them or any one else. It's common sense, a common courtesy, and was common knowledge for near since we advanced beyond muzzle loaders until the last decade or two. "Back in the old days..." at the first couple clubs or so I was learning trap shooting, even turning around to face the club house with a closed action could get you knocked flat on your "brains" and kicked out of the club permanently if it happened again.

That's not the only reason you don't trust a safety. It's pretty common knowledge at most trap clubs, at least it used to be, that dropping a shot gun on the butt can defeat a safety and make it go off on some guns.

I never met any one who shot their self until the new internet generation really got it all figured out for us though. They are really on top of it all. Back then if you had one guy in town who had actually shot his hunting partner you lived in a pretty dumb town.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/JackPatrickRyan/Gun%20Safety/shotgun05.jpg

[TR675]

And the point of this thread is that a gent shot himself with his shotgun during a self-defense incident in part, I would argue, because he didn't default to "safety-on" at all times he wasn't ready to shoot. Hence my "Well then, I'm going to default to safety-on at all times" post.

So your arguments about what is truly "safe" at sporting events, while they may be correct in that context, seem inapropos to this particular incident.

[Tamara]

The difference being at home, you do what ever you want to do. MisFireMccoy did. Good for him.

The pistol in your avatar doesn't have the slide locked back.

As an aside, I hate the "Ballistic Golf Club" attitude you find at some shooting sports. Shot a CMP Carbine match once and was appalled at the way the guns were treated off the line.

"Quit pointing the gun at me, Cletus."

"It's got a chamber flag in it."

"I don't care if it's got fifty kittening chamber flags in it; quit pointing the kittening gun at me."

[Jack Ryan]

And the point of this thread is that a gent shot himself with his shotgun during a self-defense incident in part, I would argue, because he didn't default to "safety-on" at all times he wasn't ready to shoot. Hence my "Well then, I'm going to default to safety-on at all times" post.

So your arguments about what is truly "safe" at sporting events, while they may be correct in that context, seem inapropos to this particular incident.

He shot his self because his gun was not made safe when there was no more threat. He then behaved as if it were safe.

I am merely pointing out that a safety on a shotgun still does not make that gun safe. Less dangerous, yes, but "safe" no. It should still be treated as a dangerous weapon. If he had, he would still have his leg, sporting event or not. I just bring up the topic of sporting events because people act and talk as if the safety on the gun is the problem here. It is NOT, the safety between his ears is the one that failed him and IS failing a few other people here. If we are lucky no one will ever confirm it. Again. At least no one I know.

Treating a gun like it's safe just because they THINK they flipped a little switch or pushed a little button has gotton a lot of people killed a ruined at least twice as many lives. It a applies to a lot of firearms but it especially applies to shotguns and the CONCEPT IS ESPECIALLY SUPPORTED by the shooting sports.

Safeties are not safe. Action open is safe. That's a pain fact. You can argue your hypothetical what if's and when evers all you want but it won't change. NO ONE has ever been shot with the action open, loaded or not. Lot's of people have been "accidently" killed with the safety on.


http://smg.photobucket.com/user/JackPatrickRyan/media/Gun%20Safety/kilgore.flv.html

[Jack Ryan]

The pistol in your avatar doesn't have the slide locked back.

It's pointed down range to.

[Tamara]

It's pointed down range to.

Do you carry a gun?

[TR675]

Ok, I agree with your basic premise. I don't know that it applies to this incident.

Mr. McCoy chased a trespasser off with his shotgun. He went to call the police, presumably not knowing if the trespasser was still in the area, was coming back, etc. Do you expect him to unload his shotgun and lock it back at that point? Or should he have put it on safe, while also following the four rules, while he made his call?

The point of the safety, as I think you are correctly arguing, is not to render otherwise unsafe behavior ok - and nobody is asserting that. You should treat a gun on-safe like any other gun - don't point it at anything you aren't going to destroy, etc. The point of the safety, as I see it, is to provide a last ditch backup in case the user commits a human error of the sort that are common in highly stressful situations, breaching the four rules and would, but for that safety, pop off a shot into an unsafe direction, like his leg.


"I don't care if it's got fifty kittening chamber flags in it; quit pointing the kittening gun at me."

No kidding. If you'll do it on the range, you'll do it anywhere.

[Tamara]

No kidding. If you'll do it on the range, you'll do it anywhere.

Precisely. The oft-derided "Rule #1" is there for a reason, and that's it.

[Trooper224]

He shot his self because his gun was not made safe when there was no more threat. He then behaved as if it were safe.

There's a metric ton of reasons why the OP shot himself, involving attitude, mindset, behavior, critical thinking skills, etc. We don't want to beat him up since going through life with a ready made Captain Ahab costume is bad enough, but putting it off on the mechanical safety alone really oversimplifies the situation.

[peterb]

Ok, I agree with your basic premise. I don't know that it applies to this incident.

The point of the safety, as I think you are correctly arguing, is not to render otherwise unsafe behavior ok - and nobody is asserting that. You should treat a gun on-safe like any other gun - don't point it at anything you aren't going to destroy, etc. The point of the safety, as I see it, is to provide a last ditch backup in case the user commits a human error of the sort that are common in highly stressful situations, breaching the four rules and would, but for that safety, pop off a shot into an unsafe direction, like his leg.
.

Exactly. That seems like a fine reason to reinforce the use of the safety as a habit. I'm human, and I'll take all the help I can get.

[Jack Ryan]

The pistol in your avatar doesn't have the slide locked back.

As an aside, I hate the "Ballistic Golf Club" attitude you find at some shooting sports. Shot a CMP Carbine match once and was appalled at the way the guns were treated off the line.

"Quit pointing the gun at me, Cletus."

"It's got a chamber flag in it."

"I don't care if it's got fifty kittening chamber flags in it; quit pointing the kittening gun at me."

I agree 100%.

That pistol isn't pointed at any one or at anything I would care if it got shot, nor is it in any one's hands regardless of what it is pointing at.

[Jack Ryan]

Do you carry a gun?

Yes.

[Jack Ryan]

Ok, I agree with your basic premise. I don't know that it applies to this incident.

Mr. McCoy chased a trespasser off with his shotgun. He went to call the police, presumably not knowing if the trespasser was still in the area, was coming back, etc. Do you expect him to unload his shotgun and lock it back at that point? Or should he have put it on safe, while also following the four rules, while he made his call?

The point of the safety, as I think you are correctly arguing, is not to render otherwise unsafe behavior ok - and nobody is asserting that. You should treat a gun on-safe like any other gun - don't point it at anything you aren't going to destroy, etc. The point of the safety, as I see it, is to provide a last ditch backup in case the user commits a human error of the sort that are common in highly stressful situations, breaching the four rules and would, but for that safety, pop off a shot into an unsafe direction, like his leg.



No kidding. If you'll do it on the range, you'll do it anywhere.

I suspected we might be closer to agreement than argument if we could just get to looking at the same topic at the same time. At least close enough to get along.

[Tamara]

Yes.

Is the action open?

[Jack Ryan]

Is the action open?

No, and it's not safe either. It's dangerous. That's why I have it. It's dangerous and I treat it like it's dangerous.

[Tamara]

No, and it's not safe either. It's dangerous. That's why I have it. It's dangerous and I treat it like it's dangerous.

Is there a threat nearby?

[Jack Ryan]

Is there a threat nearby?

Not that I know of. That's why it's in my holster.

[Lomshek]

The video you linked looks like a guy walking with his finger on a Glock trigger and ND'ing when he trips.
Not sure what poor trigger finger discipline has to do with unsafe safeties.


He shot his self because his gun was not made safe when there was no more threat. He then behaved as if it were safe.

Actually (McCoy can correct me if I am off here) he shot himself because he knew how to chamber a round but was not at all practiced in handling a loaded gun or operating the rest of the controls (like the safety and trigger discipline). Had he spent much time shooting the gun at the range he might have learned that PGO shotguns absolutely suck for accurate shooting or safe handling and are one of the worst guns to use in a stressful situation.

You're arguing that a safety isn't safe and only an action open gun is safe. I agree that a safety does not make a gun safe but it adds a layer of safety while keeping your gun in a ready state. A broken open gun is as useful as tits on the boar hog in a defensive capacity so it's a little disingenuous to argue that that is the only "safe" gun.

A gun kept for defense (for me) will always be round chambered and all safeties engaged. If someone wants to keep their social guns disassembled into the component parts they're welcome to but I'll pass.

[Slavex]

The linked to video is of Tim and Kilgore at the range, it was a purposeful trip and fall video. Back in the day of Fullauto.com they had a bunch of similar videos and pics.

[Tamara]

Not that I know of. That's why it's in my holster.

I thought it was only "safe" with the action open? Now you're adding all kinds of other special situations where it's "safe". You're confusing me.

Do you have a round in the chamber?

[Jack Ryan]

I thought it was only "safe" with the action open? Now you're adding all kinds of other special situations where it's "safe". You're confusing me.

Do you have a round in the chamber?

Tamara if you are looking to learn the differences between hand guns and shot guns and how to handle them you should really take a class or something.

If you bleed this long every single time you learn something new it's going to be a slow process, find somebody with the patience to deal with that kind of student. It's not me.

[KevinB]

Jack, I believe she is simply pointing out you seem to have a different state of expectations for different weapon systems.

I do, and I accept that will put me at odds with some. However you made some absolute statements earlier, and then are caveating it with well that is a pistol...

I don't trust safeties period -- however I view them as an additional layer of protection on many weapon systems, and thus use them on some weapons.

[Slavex]

Kev, thanks for the post, I don't think anything else needs to be said along that line. Lets move back onto the original discussion please.