P9HST1 question

[Papalapa]

Like many of you I've read Doc's "approved" service duty handgun sticky over and over. So I can't find any of the Federal 124+p or 147 grain HST 9mm ammo for sale. But I have found a bit of the p9hst1 124 gr 9mm ammo. This round wasn't on the good to go list but does anyone know how inadequate it is? I'm looking for a secondary option as I can't find any of the first choice ammo available.

[JDM]

Does it have to be HST?

[TheTrevor]

I'll just leave this right here...

http://www.rareammo.com/federal-premium-le-9mm-147gr-hst-tactical-hp-50-rnds

[DocGKR]

It works OK, the +P is a bit better, much like with the Gold Dot 124 gr.

[Symmetry]

Never been a fan of standard pressure 115gr and 124gr loads, unless it is out of a subgun which gives it a velocity boost effectively making it similar to +P from a pistol. I only get an average velocity of 1090fps from a 4" barrel with the standard pressure HSTs which is way below advertised. Standard pressure 147gr HSTs run at 980fps from the same barrel. 147gr always suffer less performance loss in 4" or shorter barrels than lighter bullet weights. I would look for 147gr loads in Gold Dot, HST, Ranger Talon, or Ranger Bonded before I would go with the standard pressure 124gr. 124gr+P in those bullet designs would be my next choice which uses larger charges of fast burning powder to muscle the the bullet out of the barrel at the price of more powder detonating outside the barrel generating more flash and blast.

[Rich]

124HST
BG P=11inches
Exp = 880

AG
P=9inches

Pass all the rest of testing according to ATK

(Some 9mm loads on the list wont pass all the FBI barriers like Ranger 127+P+)


I wouldn't have a problem using 124gr HST for SD

Matter of fact I have a couple boxes coming in!

Heck I even use 148gr WC in my M642 with reloads of ranger 130B

[Symmetry]

124HST
BG P=11inches
Exp = 880

AG
P=9inches

Pass all the rest of testing according to ATK



12-18". Coming close is good. 9" is subpar. Plus, 1150fps is not the velocity that you get from either a Glock or Sig 4" barrel. I've tried it in cold and hot weather. 147gr and 124gr+P are much closer to advertised velocities.

[ST911]

I tend to favor 147s for their ability to perform without requiring extra oomph to do so. The best tend to work regardless of barrel length, simplifying inventory for service and CCW size guns.

[Papalapa]

Bom they don't have to be HST. Trevor thanks for the link. My luck sold out when tried to add them to inventory. Thanks for the rest of the input folks. Finally found some 124+p Gold Dots and will likely go that route. Thanks again for the help.

[will_1400]

I snagged 100 rounds of this since it was locally available (alternatives were Hydra-Shoks or Critical Defense both in 115 gr standard pressure flavors), but from now on, I'm ordering my ammo online. Shot accurately enough when accounting for my fairly low skill with a pistol and my M&P9 FS ate them like candy, but I'll definitely be on the lookout for some better ammo in the future.

[Rich]

12-18". Coming close is good. 9" is subpar. Plus, 1150fps is not the velocity that you get from either a Glock or Sig 4" barrel. I've tried it in cold and hot weather. 147gr and 124gr+P are much closer to advertised velocities.


Velocity on the box or catalog don't mean a thing. mother nature plays a role, Temp elevation . and of coarse barrel length

Same with reloading and manuals!


In the 80 and 90`s I admit I thought 10inches would be enough. ( came from shooting pigs/deer and such)

I didn't know about the 12-18 until about 12yrs ago when Doc was at AR15.com !

For now the 124 HST will do for HD. Or if I get surgery and my hand heals I go with the 124+P load.

Since my primary pistol has mild recoil (P229 40cal / 180gr ) compared to my P30S 9mm /147gr I may trade the HK in for another Sig but in 9mm(P229R/MK25) and not worry about using 124+P or 147

Really if someone has broken fingers/hand and wants to shoot 124 HST Or if a person with a good hand , that cant find any SD ammo but 124HST.
I really don't see a problem.

And of coarse there are better loads than the 124 HST. One reason I carry a P229 w/ 180gr HST

[Rich]

I snagged 100 rounds of this since it was locally available (alternatives were Hydra-Shoks or Critical Defense both in 115 gr standard pressure flavors), but from now on, I'm ordering my ammo online. Shot accurately enough when accounting for my fairly low skill with a pistol and my M&P9 FS ate them like candy, but I'll definitely be on the lookout for some better ammo in the future.

I order 2 boxes as well

[Rich]

12-18". Coming close is good. 9" is subpar. Plus, 1150fps is not the velocity that you get from either a Glock or Sig 4" barrel. I've tried it in cold and hot weather. 147gr and 124gr+P are much closer to advertised velocities.

Btw according to ATK own testing . None of the below loads fully pass ALL of the testing barriers.
124gr HST
124gr +P HST
147gr HST

[Molon]

. . . 1150fps is not the velocity that you get from either a Glock . . .




The muzzle velocities in the table below are from a Gen-2 Glock 19 with the original factory barrel.



https://app.box.com/shared/static/os79uvejo8n9vjdo2icp.jpg


....

[Jeep]

Those are pretty nice standard deviation numbers. The small range indicates some very well made ammo.

[LOBO]

The muzzle velocities in the table below are from a Gen-2 Glock 19 with the original factory barrel.



https://app.box.com/shared/static/os79uvejo8n9vjdo2icp.jpg


....


After seeing the above numbers, I don't feel as though I'm really leaving too much on the table by using the 124 gr HST standard pressure load in my 9mm guns (Hi-Power, G17, G19, G26) when I can't find the +P version in stock anywhere.

[RoyGBiv]

^^ why don't those charts ever have a column for momentum? Drives me crazy.

P (momentum) = mass x velocity.
Seems to me that if one of those choices has a distinctly higher momentum, THAT would be a critical factor in ammo selection, combined with reliability of expansion (transfer of energy to target) and wound ballistics (sufficient penetration before transferring momentum).

Example: What's the difference in momentum between the HST 124gr@1165fps and the 147g@1018?
Just because it's going faster or slower doesn't tell me whether the round has more/less momentum.

[Molon]

^^ why don't those charts ever have a column for momentum? Drives me crazy.

P (momentum) = mass x velocity.
Seems to me that if one of those choices has a distinctly higher momentum, THAT would be a critical factor in ammo selection, combined with reliability of expansion (transfer of energy to target) and wound ballistics (sufficient penetration before transferring momentum).

Example: What's the difference in momentum between the HST 124gr@1165fps and the 147g@1018?
Just because it's going faster or slower doesn't tell me whether the round has more/less momentum.



"As clearly illustrated in the relevant scientific literature over the past 20 years,
kinetic energy or momentum transfer from a projectile to tissue is not a wounding mechanism."

Dr. G.K. Roberts



...

[RoyGBiv]

"As clearly illustrated in the relevant scientific literature over the past 20 years,
kinetic energy or momentum transfer from a projectile to tissue is not a wounding mechanism."

Dr. G.K. Roberts...
The quote is relevant but slightly off point. Slightly.
If true........
Then what's the point of reporting muzzle velocity?
What should I be hearing when my brain reads that chart?

[VT1032]

The quote is relevant but slightly off point. Slightly.
If true........
Then what's the point of reporting muzzle velocity?
What should I be hearing when my brain reads that chart?

There really isn't one.

Does it penetrate between 12-18in through a variety of barriers?
Does is expand sufficiently?
Does it group accurately out of your gun?

End of story as far as I'm concerned.

The only value I can see in measured velocities of a pistol round are seeing how much they change in different barrel lengths and how this affects expansion and penetration. Shootingthebull410's short barrel tests have been pretty enlightening in just how bad a lot of 9mm ammo, even stuff on "the list", does out of a 3 inch barrel.

I've got no problem with the P9HST1, I just like the 147's better and that's what I run. If I couldn't find them or P9HST3, I'd get these though.

[RoyGBiv]

There really isn't one.

Does it penetrate between 12-18in through a variety of barriers?
Does is expand sufficiently?
Does it group accurately out of your gun?

End of story as far as I'm concerned.

The only value I can see in measured velocities of a pistol round are seeing how much they change in different barrel lengths and how this affects expansion and penetration. Shootingthebull410's short barrel tests have been pretty enlightening in just how bad a lot of 9mm ammo, even stuff on "the list", does out of a 3 inch barrel.

I've got no problem with the P9HST1, I just like the 147's better and that's what I run. If I couldn't find them or P9HST3, I'd get these though.
Thanks for clarifying.

Now that I'm at a real keyboard..... The Roberts quote speaks to Momentum as a wounding mechanism... and I'd agree that more momentum does not equal better (word use?) wounding. But if I had a choice between two similar bullet designs (HST's, for example), keeping all other design elements the same, and one of those choices had 5% greater momentum while exibiting similar wound ballistics, expansion, etc., I'd likely choose the higher momentum round.