9mm ammo, 147gr Gold Dot vs HST?

[ASH556]

I'm just about out of 9mm HP ammo. I have about 3 mags full and that's it, so time to stock up. I'd like to buy about 200 rounds. I've read Doc's sticky on handgun ammo about 100 times, and based on that, either of these would make a fine choice. My thought/reason for 147 is that I have a 9mm can that goes on my nightstand gun. If I standardize on 147, it should be subsonic and quieter through the can and work equally as well in my carry gun. I've heard some say that the HST is a better performer than the Gold Dot. Any truth to that? Any preference one way or the other for stocking up on 200 rounds? Best prices?

Thanks!

[Kyle Reese]

They're both outstanding loads, and I'd be confident with either one.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[dcscott]

I've been using HST exclusively for off-duty carry in a Glock 19. Like you, I did a great deal of research before settling on HST, and I have a great deal of confidence in this round.

The last time I purchased, I used one of the ammo bot search engines for the cheapest price.

[orionz06]

I have settled on HST over most others after seeing and shooting quite a few cars and other objects.

[Guinnessman]

The Gold Dot seems to have better availability when compared to the HST, so I usually buy what is in stock.

[VolGrad]

I'd prefer HST myself but like Guinness said I can usually find Gold Dots so that's primarily what I have.


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[DocGKR]

The 147 gr HST is a bit better than the current 147 gr Gold Dot; the current 124 gr +P Gold Dot works well.

[Chuck Haggard]

My choices would be "it depends".

Since you are not doing car stops then I'd say the better choice is the HST, and that's what I would pick for off duty use, etc. On duty, given the choice between the two, I'd go with the bonded round since I do car stops fairly regularly.

[hossb7]

I've been using 124gr +P Gold Dots as a defensive round in my handguns since I was old enough to buy one but the reality is BOTH are excellent rounds.

I know I find myself rereading his posts frequently but I think this bit has the most application in this situation:


Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

[Symmetry]

Use what you can find. Given the choice, I prefer the HST in 147gr due to greater expansion, and the expanded petals are more robust due to the extremely thick jacket.

[Glock17JHP]

Winchester Ranger 147 grain JHP (RA9T) was not mentioned... but I prefer that in my Glock 19. Of the 2 loads you are trying to decide between, I would definitely go for the Federal HST 147 grain JHP.

[Jay]

FWIW, My "nightstand" gun is a P30s with a Tirant-9 and from the small amount of JHP i have shot through the can I know for fact that 147 Gold Dot can & will go supersonic out of my setup. That being said it may not have the time and distance to do so at HD/SD distances.
J

[ASH556]

That's interesting about it not being sub-sonic...hmmm.

So here's where I'm at: I've looked around and cannot find 147 HST, even in EE's on forums, gunbroker, etc. Also, even if I did find some, I would not pay the $50/box price the secondary market seems to be demanding right now. Thus, I'm left with the following 3 choices. All are in-stock currently and all are on Doc's list. Between these three, and pros/cons?

-50 round box - 9mm Winchester Ranger ZQ4364 147 grain Bonded Hollow Point Ammo, $25.95/ea
-CCI Speer 9mm 147 Grain Gold Dot Hollow Point - 50 Rounds per Box, $31.97/ea
-Remington 9mm Golden Saber 147 Grain Brass JHP GS9MMC Ammo - 25 Rounds per Box, $15.47/ea, or $30.94/50 to make it an equal comparison.

[Will_H]

That's interesting about it not being sub-sonic...hmmm.

So here's where I'm at: I've looked around and cannot find 147 HST, even in EE's on forums, gunbroker, etc. Also, even if I did find some, I would not pay the $50/box price the secondary market seems to be demanding right now. Thus, I'm left with the following 3 choices. All are in-stock currently and all are on Doc's list. Between these three, and pros/cons?

-50 round box - 9mm Winchester Ranger ZQ4364 147 grain Bonded Hollow Point Ammo, $25.95/ea
-CCI Speer 9mm 147 Grain Gold Dot Hollow Point - 50 Rounds per Box, $31.97/ea
-Remington 9mm Golden Saber 147 Grain Brass JHP GS9MMC Ammo - 25 Rounds per Box, $15.47/ea, or $30.94/50 to make it an equal comparison.

I bought 200 rounds of exactly what you're looking for here, $30 per box of 50.

http://www.rareammo.com/federal-premium-le-9mm-147gr-hst-tactical-hp-50-rnds

[ASH556]

I bought 200 rounds of exactly what you're looking for here, $30 per box of 50.

http://www.rareammo.com/federal-premium-le-9mm-147gr-hst-tactical-hp-50-rnds

Dude, nice! Thank you! They only had 2 boxes in-stock, but I was able to get both. Thanks again!

[Will_H]

I have 2 more boxes of 147 gr I can send you, if you need. I've got plenty of 124gr HST, and that's what I prefer to carry. PM me if you're interested.

[ASH556]

I have 2 more boxes of 147 gr I can send you, if you need. I've got plenty of 124gr HST, and that's what I prefer to carry. PM me if you're interested.

PM sent.

[md8232]

Is there a reason to prefer the P9HST4 over the P9HST2?
50 FPS more at the muzzle and 34 Foot Pounds, but no info on penetration at le.atk.com

[Chuck Haggard]

Doc has tested those, the results are very similar, as one might expect due to the velocity being close.

I tend to prefer +p in most 9mms most of the time because I think it helps insure the gun cycles when conditions aren't "good day at the range" quality.

[Symmetry]

Is there a reason to prefer the P9HST4 over the P9HST2?
50 FPS more at the muzzle and 34 Foot Pounds, but no info on penetration at le.atk.com

9mm 147 gr HST (P9HST2) at 1014 f/s:
BG: Pen = 12.2", Ave RD = 0.63", Ave RL = 0.39", Ave RW = 147.5 gr
4LD: Pen = 15.4", Ave RD = 0.53", Ave RL = 0.50", Ave RW = 147.2 gr
AG: Pen = 13.0", Ave RD = 0.50", Ave RL = 0.59", Ave RW = 143.6 gr

9 mm 147 gr +P HST (P9HST4) at 1069 fps:
BG: Pen = 14.4, RD = 0.64, RL = 0.41, RW = 147.5
4LD: Pen = 16.3, RD = 0.59, RL = 0.43, RW = 147.8

No autoglass test for the +P, but as you can see you get a little more penetration ability from the +P along with slightly better expansion.

[md8232]

9mm 147 gr HST (P9HST2) at 1014 f/s:
BG: Pen = 12.2", Ave RD = 0.63", Ave RL = 0.39", Ave RW = 147.5 gr
4LD: Pen = 15.4", Ave RD = 0.53", Ave RL = 0.50", Ave RW = 147.2 gr
AG: Pen = 13.0", Ave RD = 0.50", Ave RL = 0.59", Ave RW = 143.6 gr

9 mm 147 gr +P HST (P9HST4) at 1069 fps:
BG: Pen = 14.4, RD = 0.64, RL = 0.41, RW = 147.5
4LD: Pen = 16.3, RD = 0.59, RL = 0.43, RW = 147.8

No autoglass test for the +P, but as you can see you get a little more penetration ability from the +P along with slightly better expansion.

Thanks for this. Now to decide if it is worth almost twice as much for the P9HST4.

[Chuck Haggard]

Thanks for this. Now to decide if it is worth almost twice as much for the P9HST4.

You mean the 2 vs the 4?

No.

[DocGKR]

There is no reason to use the +P 147 unless you can get it cheaper, then go for it.

[jstone]

There is no reason to use the +P 147 unless you can get it cheaper, then go for it.

Whats the deal with the 147 +p. I have a case of it. I got it for the little edge in velocity. Why is the standard 147 better?

[DocGKR]

Not better, but the +P does not give you anything extra.

[jstone]

Not better, but the +P does not give you anything extra.

Thanks for the reply.

[Symmetry]

Thanks for the reply.

For what it's worth, the extra momentum helps with punching through barriers. I've found that 9mm loaded to +P levels(124gr and 147gr) will punch through materials that standard pressure 9mm loads will not penetrate. For instance, a 124gr+P GD, the Winchester 127gr+P+ RT, and the Federal 147gr+P HST will punch all the way through a 6x6 piece of pressure treated pine(I am sure other loads at +P levels will have similar penetration performance). Usually the standard pressure loads in 124gr and 147gr stay in the 6x6 somewhere. That's 10 shots per load and they all performed the same. I have yet to find a .40S&W or a .45acp(or +P) that will do this. In fact, most .40 and .45 loads will not penetrate through a piece of 4x4 pressure treated pine. For FBI testing, I agree with Doc that in terms of those test criteria the +P probably isn't a game changer.

[jstone]

For what it's worth, the extra momentum helps with punching through barriers. I've found that 9mm loaded to +P levels(124gr and 147gr) will punch through materials that standard pressure 9mm loads will not penetrate. For instance, a 124gr+P GD, the Winchester 127gr+P+ RT, and the Federal 147gr+P HST will punch all the way through a 6x6 piece of pressure treated pine(I am sure other loads at +P levels will have similar penetration performance). Usually the standard pressure loads in 124gr and 147gr stay in the 6x6 somewhere. That's 10 shots per load and they all performed the same. I have yet to find a .40S&W or a .45acp(or +P) that will do this. In fact, most .40 and .45 loads will not penetrate through a piece of 4x4 pressure treated pine. For FBI testing, I agree with Doc that in terms of those test criteria the +P probably isn't a game changer.

Thats pretty impressive. I never thought any pistol bullet would make it through a 6x6.

[Symmetry]

Thats pretty impressive. I never thought any pistol bullet would make it through a 6x6.

Velocity, elongated ogive, and smaller cross sectional area help it to do that. We had the option of going to .40S&W MP5s in the late 1990s, but part of our decision to stick with 9mm was that it was more accurate at longer ranges and it would punch through a wider variety of barriers than .40.

[Chuck Haggard]

Unfortunately we see that often here, when guys are shooting from the 40 or 50 and don't get the round past the 25 yard barricade post.

I have also seen better penetration in other non-standard barriers. One reason why I like the 9mm for my needs as much as I do.

[Symmetry]

Unfortunately we see that often here, when guys are shooting from the 40 or 50 and don't get the round past the 25 yard barricade post.

I have also seen better penetration in other non-standard barriers. One reason why I like the 9mm for my needs as much as I do.

In my experience, it becomes exponentially more difficult to penetrate dense substances such as wood, fiberglass, rubber, or steel the larger and slower the caliber is.

[Up1911Fan]

I've been happy with the 147gr Ranger Bonded but wouldn't hesitate to carry either the GD or HST.

[DocGKR]

Mass beats glass, velocity beats metal and wood.

[Glock17JHP]

As some have said before, however... heavy clothing performance is the best thing to look at unless you are LE and expect more barriers, like automobiles, etc. That is why I see no need for more than the Winchester Ranger 147 grain JHP (RA9T). I prefer it over the Federal HST in the same 147 grain weight because of what I feel is a slight edge in heavy clothing performance...

Winchester Ranger: 14.0" Pen. w/ .66" Exp.
Federal HST: 12.5" Pen. w/.69" Exp.

I know many here are LE, but I am sure some are civilians like me.

[DocGKR]

I tend to prefer the 147 gr HST these days by a slight margin after getting to see nearly 10 years of OIS incident results with each load.

[ASH556]

As some have said before, however... heavy clothing performance is the best thing to look at unless you are LE and expect more barriers, like automobiles, etc. That is why I see no need for more than the Winchester Ranger 147 grain JHP (RA9T). I prefer it over the Federal HST in the same 147 grain weight because of what I feel is a slight edge in heavy clothing performance...

Winchester Ranger: 14.0" Pen. w/ .66" Exp.
Federal HST: 12.5" Pen. w/.69" Exp.

I know many here are LE, but I am sure some are civilians like me.
I'm a civilian but prefer barrier loads in my pistols and carbines. I just got 200 rounds of HST 147 so that will be my carry load in my G17's and my AR's are SBR's so barrier loads like the 55gr TSX and 55gr 5.56 Gold Dot (I have and carry both) are not hampered by the velocity loss of the shorter barrel. Not only that, but who really knows what situation you might find yourself in. If the bullet needs to go through auto glass or something, I won't have to worry. If it doesn't, I still get more than adequate performance.

[Glock17JHP]

I tend to prefer the 147 gr HST these days by a slight margin after getting to see nearly 10 years of OIS incident results with each load.

I will admit, I have teetered back and forth between the standard Ranger and standard HST in 147 grain, and the HST looks to have a better mushroom/jacket effect, sort of like the Gold Dot but larger diameter and better. But then I look at the slight (yes, slight) advantage in the penetration depth of the Ranger, and that sways me back to the Ranger. I guess I am biased a bit toward penetration depth after looking at shootings like the Miami FBI Firefight... :o

I know up here (points to cranium) that either is good... and I still consider the HST...

Doc, can you elaborate on what sways you toward the HST?

[Symmetry]

I will admit, I have teetered back and forth between the standard Ranger and standard HST in 147 grain, and the HST looks to have a better mushroom/jacket effect, sort of like the Gold Dot but larger diameter and better. But then I look at the slight (yes, slight) advantage in the penetration depth of the Ranger, and that sways me back to the Ranger. I guess I am biased a bit toward penetration depth after looking at shootings like the Miami FBI Firefight... :o

I know up here (points to cranium) that either is good... and I still consider the HST...

Doc, can you elaborate on what sways you toward the HST?

If you want more penetration from the 147gr HST.....go 147gr+P :D

[Rich]

I'm just about out of 9mm HP ammo. I have about 3 mags full and that's it, so time to stock up. I'd like to buy about 200 rounds. I've read Doc's sticky on handgun ammo about 100 times, and based on that, either of these would make a fine choice. My thought/reason for 147 is that I have a 9mm can that goes on my nightstand gun. If I standardize on 147, it should be subsonic and quieter through the can and work equally as well in my carry gun. I've heard some say that the HST is a better performer than the Gold Dot. Any truth to that? Any preference one way or the other for stocking up on 200 rounds? Best prices?

Thanks!

I think the HST is the best bullet of the bunch. be it 124+P or 147gr ( good luck finding it in stock.
I have no love for the Gold Dot 147gr although its on the list. If I had to use GD I would choose the 124+P

[Rich]

If you want more penetration from the 147gr HST.....go 147gr+P :D

I notice that in SOME bare gel test the faster bullet penetrates less.

Like comparing 5.56mm SP and the 223 Rem SP ( loaded with same bullet)
The 223rem will have more penetration because the bullet is moving slower.

Or with standard pressure vs +P using the same bullet.

[Symmetry]

I notice that in SOME bare gel test the faster bullet penetrates less.

Like comparing 5.56mm SP and the 223 Rem SP ( loaded with same bullet)
The 223rem will have more penetration because the bullet is moving slower.

Or with standard pressure vs +P using the same bullet.

Yes, sometimes the +P bullet expands more than the standard pressure load.....or expands more quickly resulting in a more shallow final position in the soft gel. The end result is higher degree of trauma earlier during penetration, a larger expanded bullet resulting in more trauma.......or if expansion is the same as the standard pressure load you would get greater penetration. Higher impact energy and momentum are multiplied by the higher velocity of +P loads generating better barrier penetration too. Other than the concerns about additional recoil, its hard to find a downside to the 147gr+P load.

[campbed]

Some data about HST and others, this series of FBI compliant tests this guy is doing is perfect for me as I have a 3" barrel Nano.

Enjoy.


http://youtu.be/K3VfWkWMzOI

147gr HSt standard is tested here. +P test will be posted soon.

I carry HST 124gr. That test is here:

http://youtu.be/-lGqdMdbir0

[Rich]

Yes, sometimes the +P bullet expands more than the standard pressure load.....or expands more quickly resulting in a more shallow final position in the soft gel. The end result is higher degree of trauma earlier during penetration, a larger expanded bullet resulting in more trauma.......or if expansion is the same as the standard pressure load you would get greater penetration. Higher impact energy and momentum are multiplied by the higher velocity of +P loads generating better barrier penetration too. Other than the concerns about additional recoil, its hard to find a downside to the 147gr+P load.

I agree! I think the 147HST+P is the first +P in the weight class that I know of.

[Rich]

I saw a test using a 9mm with a barrel under 3inches . Gold Dot 124+P vs SB 124 GD +P
In the test the SB load did a better job.


Im going to use Federal Bonded 124 and If I cant get a hold of it I will be using 124 HST.

Chuck states that the Barnes 115+P 1100FPS (midwayusa velocity) is low recoiling. So you might check it out? I know I'm going to.

[Spr1]

I saw a test using a 9mm with a barrel under 3inches . Gold Dot 124+P vs SB 124 GD +P
In the test the SB load did a better job.


Im going to use Federal Bonded 124 and If I cant get a hold of it I will be using 124 HST.

Chuck states that the Barnes 115+P 1100FPS (midwayusa velocity) is low recoiling. So you might check it out? I know I'm going to.

Lot to lot variation? My understanding is that in 9, the SB is identical to the normal flavors.

[Symmetry]

Lot to lot variation? My understanding is that in 9, the SB is identical to the normal flavors.

The bullet is the same. Short barrel uses a faster burning powder to get the pressure high enough for adequate velocity out of a shorter barrel.

[Spr1]

I was under the impression that they modify the loads in every caliber other than 9. I could be wrong.....

[Symmetry]

I was under the impression that they modify the loads in every caliber other than 9. I could be wrong.....

Can't say either way on that. I haven't heard anything other than the bullet is the same between the standard pressure, +P, and SB 124gr GD loads.

[DocGKR]

Last I checked, the 124 gr 9 mm is the same; the other loads have differences.

[Glock17JHP]

If you want more penetration from the 147gr HST.....go 147gr+P :D

I can feel more recoil (and see more flash) with the standard pressure Federal HST 147 grain JHP load compared to the Winchester Ranger 147 grain JHP load. For that reason I prefer the Ranger load, and think I would like the +P version of the HST even less in terms of 'shootability'. I know for many the differences I am describing are not very noticeable, perhaps I am like the Princess and the pea... I guess I will stick with the Ranger RA9T load.

Thank you for your comments, Symmetry...

[Frank R]

I like the Barnes bullet better for short barreled 9mm.

[Rich]

The bullet is the same. Short barrel uses a faster burning powder to get the pressure high enough for adequate velocity out of a shorter barrel.

Whats funny I read a article by Speer saying its a different bullet by design. Also stated it had a deeper HP.

I may of read it at the ATK website. I look it up. but no doubt the performance is different.

[Rich]

I can feel more recoil (and see more flash) with the standard pressure Federal HST 147 grain JHP load compared to the Winchester Ranger 147 grain JHP load. For that reason I prefer the Ranger load, and think I would like the +P version of the HST even less in terms of 'shootability'. I know for many the differences I am describing are not very noticeable, perhaps I am like the Princess and the pea... I guess I will stick with the Ranger RA9T load.


In my P30S I don't care for the felt recoil of the 147gr loads at all. I think Ranger 147T is loaded under 1000fps. HST147 ATK specs state 1050fps last I knew.

Might try federal tactical 124 gr bonded ! Its a standard pressure load. (Be aware it is listed at a few websites as a 124 +P )

The 124 standard pressure loads in my P30S make for soft shooting and fast recover.

[Symmetry]

In my P30S I don't care for the felt recoil of the 147gr loads at all. I think Ranger 147T is loaded under 1000fps. HST147 ATK specs state 1050fps last I knew.

Might try federal tactical 124 gr bonded ! Its a standard pressure load. (Be aware it is listed at a few websites as a 124 +P )

The 124 standard pressure loads in my P30S make for soft shooting and fast recover.

You might need to consider moving to a different platform. The two things I don't like about the P30 is that the slide release interferes with thumbs forward grip, and it is much more jumpy compared to other pistol designs.

[Rich]

You might need to consider moving to a different platform. The two things I don't like about the P30 is that the slide release interferes with thumbs forward grip, and it is much more jumpy compared to other pistol designs.

You are 100% right!!

My Gut said to buy a P226R in 9mm! But with all the love for the P30 here . I took a chance on it.


BTW
I've been told the P226R 9mm is softer shooting when compared to the P30 9mm.

[Rich]

Whats funny I read a article by Speer saying its a different bullet by design. Also stated it had a deeper HP.

I may of read it at the ATK website. I look it up. but no doubt the performance is different.

UPDATE
I went back to the ATK website and click on SB Gold Dot There Speer goes on to tell about the changes made. Who know maybe they lie.

[DocGKR]

All the loads EXCEPT the 9 mm 124 gr +P are different; that one is identical because it worked as is and did not need modifications.

[Fordtough25]

I run Federal HST 147 gr in my 9mm's, great round and performance IMO.

[Up1911Fan]

Both are good loads. I carry 147gr Ranger Bonded but wouldn't think twice about carry either load mentioned, the Ranger's were just available in bulk when I needed to restock on carry ammo.

[j.d.allen]

Did they ever clear up the hard primer issues with the Ranger Bonded? Was the PDX1 also affected by that?

[j.d.allen]

Did they ever clear up the hard primer issues with the Ranger Bonded? Was the PDX1 also affected by that?

Does anyone know the answer to this? Ive got some PDX1 147 gr 9MM that has a date code of 10/2013...

[jtohio]

I am new here and have read some of the threads and of course Doc's ammo list.My question being a newbie and I am sorry if this has been answered....What is the difference between these? They are all federal, all 124, I don't see a +p mentioned in the description when I am searching online for it. Sportsmanguide has it for roughly $1 per round, but ammunition depot has them for $30 for 50.
P9HST1
LE9T1
P9HS1G1
P9HST1S

Rare Ammo has P9HST1 50 count for $30, but right next to it they have these P9HST1S 20 count for $25...I am assuming I am missing something?

Then I see other federal 147gr like this
ederal Hi-Shok 9MM 147 Grain JHP Ammo - 50 Rounds Per Box
Price / Box: $23.97
Manufacturer: Federal

Stock Status: In Stock
Product Code: 9MS
Are these different than the ones from the list?

Thanks in advance for all of your help.
John

[j.d.allen]

P9HST1 is ok but P9HST3 or P9HST2 are a bit better. Good luck finding those two items though. Stay away from any Hi shok or HydrA shok unless you want it just for practice ammo.

LE9T1 and LE9T5 are good to go

[jtohio]

Thank you

[Distinguished Rick]

I use HST in my 9mm's.

[Paxamus]

Unless my google has become very weak all of a sudden, I cannot find any HST 147 anywhere. Anyone know where I can locate some?

[Symmetry]

Unless my google has become very weak all of a sudden, I cannot find any HST 147 anywhere. Anyone know where I can locate some?

Be patient, it will pop up on the net. Kyle's Gun Shop, and SG Ammo are good sources for it. We've done a lot of non FBI testing on 9mm ammo, such as auto body, frozen jugs, 50yrd windage, etc and the 147gr HST has the best all around perfornance of any 9mm round we have tested.

[Paxamus]

I'll have to add kyles, SGAmmo is one of my regulars

[jstone]

Unless my google has become very weak all of a sudden, I cannot find any HST 147 anywhere. Anyone know where I can locate some?

You have to jump on it when you find it. I got lucky and picked up a case 2 months ago. Check out luckygunner, ammunition to go, and the shops others have mentioned.

When I found the cases at luckygunner they had iirc 30+ cases. I thought I will get it tomorrow. I got busy and did not get to it till the day after. They only had one case left. I was planning on getting 2 but I was happy just to get the one.

[Noah L Goddard]

I'm just about out of 9mm HP ammo. I have about 3 mags full and that's it, so time to stock up. I'd like to buy about 200 rounds. I've read Doc's sticky on handgun ammo about 100 times, and based on that, either of these would make a fine choice. My thought/reason for 147 is that I have a 9mm can that goes on my nightstand gun. If I standardize on 147, it should be subsonic and quieter through the can and work equally as well in my carry gun. I've heard some say that the HST is a better performer than the Gold Dot. Any truth to that? Any preference one way or the other for stocking up on 200 rounds? Best prices?

Thanks!

I wonder if anyone besides me is using Underwood 115 gr. +P+ JHP 1400/500. I have a S&W 5906 that I bought new in 1995. A little heavy but I like it for CCW. Underwood has two high velocity 115 gr. JHP, item # 131 & item # 740
Thanks,
Noah

[PPGMD]

Unless my google has become very weak all of a sudden, I cannot find any HST 147 anywhere. Anyone know where I can locate some?

That is actually something we civilians don't consider when selecting defensive ammo, availability.

That is why I prefer Gold Dots as I have both the LE and commercial channels to purchase from. I may not like it when I have to pay $1 a round for the commercial boxes, but if I need it and it is the the only box available I can do that.

Though I also have a half a case of the Gold Dot load I like, so it is pretty rare I have to purchase any.

[Chuck Haggard]

I wonder if anyone besides me is using Underwood 115 gr. +P+ JHP 1400/500. I have a S&W 5906 that I bought new in 1995. A little heavy but I like it for CCW. Underwood has two high velocity 115 gr. JHP, item # 131 & item # 740
Thanks,
Noah

You won't find a lot of fans of ammo such as that here. I greatly prefer makers that load to spec and have a presence in the LE market.

If you just gotta have +P+ though; http://www.sgammo.com/product/speer/50-round-box-9mm-luger-p-speer-gold-dot-115-grain-hollow-point-le-ammo-53612

[Paxamus]

Has anyone seen the 147s or 124 +p out there?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chuck Haggard]

The makers build ammo in batches, or runs, tool up for a caliber, make a metric shot ton of that ammo, then literally stop the presses, retool again, and go make something else.....

People forget that, or never knew it. This is why guys like Doc and me tell people to find something that works for their needs and go buy a case or two of it.

Anyway, I am guessing that the last run of HST and the ever popular 124gr +P Gold Dot is sold out, so one has to wait till it gets made again and buy it when it's available.

[witchking777]

That's interesting about it not being sub-sonic...hmmm.

So here's where I'm at: I've looked around and cannot find 147 HST, even in EE's on forums, gunbroker, etc. Also, even if I did find some, I would not pay the $50/box price the secondary market seems to be demanding right now. Thus, I'm left with the following 3 choices. All are in-stock currently and all are on Doc's list. Between these three, and pros/cons?

-50 round box - 9mm Winchester Ranger ZQ4364 147 grain Bonded Hollow Point Ammo, $25.95/ea
-CCI Speer 9mm 147 Grain Gold Dot Hollow Point - 50 Rounds per Box, $31.97/ea
-Remington 9mm Golden Saber 147 Grain Brass JHP GS9MMC Ammo - 25 Rounds per Box, $15.47/ea, or $30.94/50 to make it an equal comparison.

the 135 gr Hornady Critical Duty ammo is pretty easy to find,priced well too

[Rich]

That's interesting about it not being sub-sonic...hmmm.

So here's where I'm at: I've looked around and cannot find 147 HST, even in EE's on forums, gunbroker, etc. Also, even if I did find some, I would not pay the $50/box price the secondary market seems to be demanding right now. Thus, I'm left with the following 3 choices. All are in-stock currently and all are on Doc's list. Between these three, and pros/cons?

-50 round box - 9mm Winchester Ranger ZQ4364 147 grain Bonded Hollow Point Ammo, $25.95/ea
-CCI Speer 9mm 147 Grain Gold Dot Hollow Point - 50 Rounds per Box, $31.97/ea
-Remington 9mm Golden Saber 147 Grain Brass JHP GS9MMC Ammo - 25 Rounds per Box, $15.47/ea, or $30.94/50 to make it an equal comparison.

In the beginning I wanted to use 147gr HST but didn't like the impulse the 147gr loads have in my P30.
So I went with the standard pressure 124gr HST and its easy to find.

Now that my right hand has healed up I started using 124gr +P loads.

I choose Rem GS 124gr +P bonded!
#1 In Docs test it did a excellent job when compared to HST 147gr and 124gr +P.
#2 I saw two 4 layer gel test using a 2.7inch barrel and all the loads expanded.
#3 Golden Saber Bonded isn't a popular load.
*4 Comes seald up at both ends UNLIKE HST and hit and miss with ranger T /B .

[BurtGummer]

That is actually something we civilians don't consider when selecting defensive ammo, availability.

That is why I prefer Gold Dots as I have both the LE and commercial channels to purchase from. I may not like it when I have to pay $1 a round for the commercial boxes, but if I need it and it is the the only box available I can do that.

Though I also have a half a case of the Gold Dot load I like, so it is pretty rare I have to purchase any.

Police officers are Civilians.

[Trooper224]

Police officers are Civilians.

Not according to Webster's Dictionary, you know just those books we use to define the fracking english language. I know everyone likes to get their 'tude on over this point of semantics, but I really wish people would get the f**** over it.

[Paxamus]

ok so now that I am waiting for the next batch of 147 HST to come out and I will buy more than I need next time. How do yall feel about 147 Speer GD? I am thinking about getting some of those until I can get my HSTs

[Chuck Haggard]

The 147gr Gold Dot was the FBI issued 9mm duty loading for quite some time.

When we went back to 9mms in 2006 Indiana State Police did the same thing. They went with the 147gr Gold Dot as well.

It's a decent load.

[Paxamus]

I might pick up a box or 2, but I will follow everyone's advice and buy a BUNCH of HST next time I see it!- I almost even thought about paying the absurdly high prices on GB for it!

[DocGKR]

While the 147 gr GD is acceptable, the 124 +P GD is a bit better. This is the exact opposite of HST, where the standard pressure 147 gr HST is the best load, although the 124 gr +P HST is acceptable.

[Paxamus]

Thanks doc! Should I go with the standard GD or the new G2?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DocGKR]

The current 124 gr +P or 147 gr GD are quite prevalent, relatively inexpensive, and work well--seems to be a win. G2 can be expensive, hard to find, and is as yet not well proven in actual use (only 2 OIS I am aware of).

[Paxamus]

Thanks again doc, I'll start looking for GD124+P until HST comes available

[Trooper224]

Doc,

How does the standard pressure 124 grain GD compare to the standard pressure 147 grain GD? Any substantial difference there?

[ILoveSigs]

I myself have faced this same dilemma several times and always opted to stick with Gold Dot. Why? Penetration. The GDs consistently penetrate further, on average, than the HSTs in almost every test (bare gel, 4LD, auto glass, etc.).

Penetration trumps expansion and the GDs will give you about an extra 1.5-2" or so.

[DocGKR]

Actually both HST and GD have worked very well in numerous OIS incidents...

[Gewehr3]

I can only find the standard pressure 9mm 124 gr. Gold Dot. Is this round acceptable? It is not on The List, but it is available.

[Kyle Reese]

I can only find the standard pressure 9mm 124 gr. Gold Dot. Is this round acceptable? It is not on The List, but it is available.

Good to go.

[Chuck Haggard]

In the old Firearms Tactical articles on the subject, the standard pressure 124gr Gold Dot was actually recommended for folks using service sized 9mm pistols.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs9.htm


I'd carry it without losing sleep if I couldn't get my preferred +P, same-same with the 147gr

[Paxamus]

Just picked up 200 rounds of 124 HST, couldn't find any GD

[DocGKR]

Both the standard pressure 124 gr GD and HST work fine.

[Mr_White]

When I've chronographed the 124 grain standard pressure and + P Gold Dot loads out of my G17 a while back, most of it was running at a velocity over factory spec. The standard pressure was right about the factory spec velocity for + P (1220 fps) and the actual + P rounds were going between 1260 and 1310 or so, depending on the specific lot. I carry the + P because I have it, but the standard pressure would be just great too.

The only exception to the above that I personally have run across is some surplus standard pressure 124 gr. Gold Dot that was supposedly rejected from a French National Police contract for being loaded hotter than they wanted. I chrono'd it at the stated factory velocity of 1150 fps for standard pressure. Also great ammo from my use of it. Very accurate.

[ILoveSigs]

When I've chronographed the 124 grain standard pressure and + P Gold Dot loads out of my G17 a while back, most of it was running at a velocity over factory spec. The standard pressure was right about the factory spec velocity for + P (1220 fps) and the actual + P rounds were going between 1260 and 1310 or so, depending on the specific lot. I carry the + P because I have it, but the standard pressure would be just great too.

That's at least partially because you were shooting it out of a 4.5" barrel and the chrono numbers for that stuff are based on a 4.0" barrel. Also, your barrel had polygonal rifling which probably resulted in an (admittedly very slight) increase in velocity over the factory test barrel's likely standard rifling.

Shoot it out of a 4" barrel with conventional rifling and I'll bet you'll get numbers a lot closer to Speer's.

[El Cid]

G2 can be expensive, hard to find, and is as yet not well proven in actual use (only 2 OIS I am aware of).
That didn't take long. Any details you can share?

[Chuck Haggard]

Ammo varies from lot to lot. I've crono'd the +P 124gr Gold Dot as high as 1275 average from my 5906s when we were carrying those, and as slow as in the 1220s.

[DocGKR]

Nope. But it did work acceptably in both shootings, although neither were shots to the torso.

No BS question: What defines of an ammo "Lot"?

[Sigfan26]

Nope. But it did work acceptably in both shootings, although neither were shots to the torso.

No BS question: What defines of an ammo "Lot"?

Were they to the head, then?