P30 Initial Impressions

[Lot2Learn]

So...I was able to finally shoot a P30 tonight. The gun even has the TLG LEM trigger in it complete with the Heine sights. My background is with Glocks, I have been carrying a G19 for the past 4 years or so and it has served me well, I have taken a couple of classes with it, including AFHF. I like the G19, it's reliable and accurate as well as easy for me to shoot. In USPSA, I shoot the G17 which for all intents and purposes is like shooting the same gun. Now, back to the H&K.

I have always wanted to shoot one with the LEM trigger, Most people on this forum can understand why. For me, it was because I am bored with my Glocks and I think it is time to learn how to shoot another gun. I also wanted to know what the big deal is about a gun that costs twice as much as glock and I am not really interesting in the M&P at this point. Here are my thoughts.

What I liked:

1. This gun is accurate!
2. Recoil is very controllable and smooth. I like how the sights track.
3. Trigger, I like how the LEM works. This gun feels like it was made for the press-out. Reset will take some getting used to but I don't think it would be too hard.
4. Sights, I had forgotten how much I like the Heine straight Eight. Right now I have been shooting the Warrens but I may change back to these. They are easier for me to stay focused on the front sight.

What I didn't like:
1. I have to change my grip to get the slide to lock back consistently. Frankly, it felt foreign. Again, probably a training issue. Doing a 1R2 drill was downright frustrating.

So besides my grip issues, I really like this pistol. Does it function in a manner totally different than my current pistols? Absolutely! But, that is half the fun. I would really like to buy one, But the price is the hardest part for me to deal with. Yes, I know I would be getting a great pistol I just don't have the funds to buy one. Right now I would just like to have a case of ammo or two...I am sure some of you can relate.

I guess my biggest take away from this was that I like the LEM trigger a lot. It makes me think of what else I may be missing out on, like TDA guns. Time will tell.

[Harm]

I just picked up a TDA version of the P30, decocker only, living it, I'm experiencing a bit of what you describe as struggling with riding the slide release but just modifying my existing grip should be ok.

I like the DA trigger, trying to adapt to the long SA trigger, it's smooth but it's LONG.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

[TheTrevor]

If slide lock back due to interference between grip and levers is a difficult issue to overcome, "shorty" levers are available which drop right in.

I have size-L hands, though, and I've been shooting HKs for nearly 20 years with no issues. It's certainly possible for most folks to adjust to an effective grip which doesn't interfere with running the gun.

[ToddG]

I guess my biggest take away from this was that I like the LEM trigger a lot. It makes me think of what else I may be missing out on, like TDA guns. Time will tell.

That's a great, open-minded attitude, Lots2Learn! I wish more shooters could break out of their "what I've got is best!" mentality and experiment from time to time. Even if you go right back to what you've already got, at least you can appreciate that there are other options that might work for other people. Not everyone has to shoot the same gun.

Having said that, do you feel like you've reached your personal zenith with the Glock? Or are you still improving over time? If you've still got room to grow & learn with the Glock, and it works and you're shooting it well, I'd be the first to say that those cases of ammo are worth more than a new gun (plus a backup new gun, plus all new support gear). Switching guns can be a boon or a curse... and trust me, as someone who's changed every year or two for the past seven years, you can't always predict in advance how it's going to work out in the long term.

[Alpha Sierra]

It's certainly possible for most folks to adjust to an effective grip which doesn't interfere with running the gun.
True. But not everyone has the burning desire to do so. I come to this from a different angle than the majority here. If a pistol system does not lend itself readily to my grip style (which is pretty conventional and always a refinement in progress), it goes away.

That's pretty much why I've settled on Glocks and S&W revolvers while S&W M&Ps, S&W 3rd Gen TDAs, and TDA SIGs have gone on down the road.

Not saying that I am averse to trying other systems (SIG DAK, etc). Just saying that I'm not going to spend an inordinate amount of time/effort trying to adjust to something that doesn't work relatively well for me right off the bat.

[ToddG]

If a pistol system does not lend itself readily to my grip style (which is pretty conventional and always a refinement in progress), it goes away.

I have to make small adjustments to my grip no matter what gun I pick up. Most folks will tell you even a G17 and G19 are slightly different. Certainly as even an identical-platofrm gun gets bigger or smaller there are changes in terms of how your hands reach controls, etc.

My #1 concern when I started my P30 test was whether the slide would lock back. So as soon as I got the gun I tested that and quickly found a very minor change (angling my WH thumb down into the grooves of the light rail) that guaranteed success. If I'd insisted on keeping my thumb angled a few degrees straighter, I never would have been able to use the P30.

Now I've made one of the trickiest transitions in the shooting world: after two years of religiously riding a 1911 thumb safety, I'm shooting a SIG that won't lock back if I put my thumb in the same location. With a few days of dry fire, I was able to accommodate and on my first live fire training day with the SIG had no problems gripping the gun tightly enough to control recoil and guarantee lockback on an empty chamber.

Being unable to adapt to a gun is one thing. Being unwilling to make inconsequential changes will simply close a lot of doors for potential learning and experimentation. It's no different than people who say they'll only shoot guns that point like a Glock... even though the grip angle shouldn't make much difference if you're using the little bumpy things atop the gun to aim.

[hufnagel]

Lot2Learn: congrats on liking it. You'll be in good company here. :cool:

That being said if you get one do all you can to train around the slide release "issue." If you can't though, don't consider it a failure on your part. I've tried to for 5 years now but the start of arthritis in both thumbs (and trigger fingers! :mad:) has rendered that effort futile. I switched the releases to the Safety/shorty style on one of my guns and things improved markedly for me. That's me though. It's also meant I'm giving up using the slide release to drop the slide on reloads and switching to slingshotting the slide instead. Not because I can't reach the shorter release but it's less reliable because I have less of a perch on it with my thumb.

[warpedcamshaft]

I have to make small adjustments to my grip no matter what gun I pick up. Most folks will tell you even a G17 and G19 are slightly different. Certainly as even an identical-platofrm gun gets bigger or smaller there are changes in terms of how your hands reach controls, etc.

My #1 concern when I started my P30 test was whether the slide would lock back. So as soon as I got the gun I tested that and quickly found a very minor change (angling my WH thumb down into the grooves of the light rail) that guaranteed success. If I'd insisted on keeping my thumb angled a few degrees straighter, I never would have been able to use the P30.

Now I've made one of the trickiest transitions in the shooting world: after two years of religiously riding a 1911 thumb safety, I'm shooting a SIG that won't lock back if I put my thumb in the same location. With a few days of dry fire, I was able to accommodate and on my first live fire training day with the SIG had no problems gripping the gun tightly enough to control recoil and guarantee lockback on an empty chamber.

Being unable to adapt to a gun is one thing. Being unwilling to make inconsequential changes will simply close a lot of doors for potential learning and experimentation. It's no different than people who say they'll only shoot guns that point like a Glock... even though the grip angle shouldn't make much difference if you're using the little bumpy things atop the gun to aim.

Quick question (I've wanted to ask this for a long time): Do you think that most people, say over 90 percent, could learn to shoot just about any reputable duty handgun at a high level given training and dedicated practice? (There are some ergonomic issues I've seen with my little wife and trigger reach, but she can still shoot most handguns fairly well.)

I've spent a good amount of time performance tracking with a wide variety of handguns... Beretta's, Sig's, HK's, Glock's, M&P's, 1911's, etc... and aside from some precision issues (had an M&P benched that couldn't hold 8 inches at 25 yards), I can usually get around the same performance level. (Hack standards 280's-290's, CSAT standards, Defoor Standards, etc...)

When I initially have issues with something new, I usually find that it is ME and not the handgun... I notice that a lot of people tend to blame the handgun rather than focusing on improving their skill and familiarity. (Big examples: LEM trigger, Traditional Double/Single action trigger, SIG's...(palm to face)... "bore axis", etc)

People get seem to get so wrapped up and invest a lot of ego in their "flavor of choice", and it seems silly to me... I've also noticed that a lot of these folks are more interested in talking about guns than learning to shoot them well.

[ToddG]

Quick question (I've wanted to ask this for a long time): Do you think that most people, say over 90 percent, could learn to shoot just about any reputable duty handgun at a high level given training and dedicated practice?

I absolutely think that 90% of the people could learn to shoot multiple "platforms" at a high level.

But once you start reaching that level, preferences are going to set in. For example, I really prefer a reversed mag button. Have I run guns without that capability and done well enough? Yes. But it's a hindrance and I'd prefer to do it "my way."

Then there are even smaller, possibly inconsequential things we call preferences but are likely really more affectations when we start measuring performance in the most trivial tiny detail. My personal example/confession is the difference between the reset on an HK LEM (which I shot just fine) and the SIG SRT (which is an easy button for fast blind splits and may make a fraction of a fraction of a second difference in real shooting). Do I really need that? No. But it made a huge impact on my decision as to which gun to shoot this year.

[1slow]

With size XL hands to keep from inadvertently interfering with the slide stop, I have to put WH thumb in light rail grove and SH thumb piggyback behind/on top of WH thumb.
Bill Rogers suggested this grip change in 2009 when I was having issues with my GL17 during class. I was having the GL17 occasionally lock back while still loaded and fail to lock back when empty. This was with stock slide release.

I have to be slightly more emphatic about WH thumb behind SH thumb with the P30, HK45, P2000SK.
I find the HKs to be worth the trouble and have not found a downside to this grip change.
Shooting 1 handed I curl the thumb down and forward to my middle finger so it does not interfere with the slide release.

[LangdonTactical]

I spent about 4 hours on the range this past Sunday trying to figure out what I shoot the best or even if there was a difference. This included an LEM P30 and a Glock 19. The test was done with guns that I have a good amount of time behind. Maybe I should post the results?

2189

[GJM]

I, and I am sure many here, would be very interested in the results!

I did an unscientific test, including a number of your pistols some weeks back, and will be curious if your results tracked mine. :)

[BCL]

I spent about 4 hours on the range this past Sunday trying to figure out what I shoot the best or even if there was a difference. This included an LEM P30 and a Glock 19. The test was done with guns that I have a good amount of time behind. Maybe I should post the results?

2189

Yes please.

[warpedcamshaft]

i spent about 4 hours on the range this past sunday trying to figure out what i shoot the best or even if there was a difference. This included an lem p30 and a glock 19. The test was done with guns that i have a good amount of time behind. Maybe i should post the results?


Yes, please!!!

[ToddG]

What? People want to see objective comparative data from someone at Ernest's level?

I need to go downstairs and get my surprised face. :cool:

[GJM]

What? People want to see objective comparative data from someone at Ernest's level?


I didn't read that it was purported to be "objective comparative data," given it happened over the course of just part of an afternoon, but yes, I am extremely interested, regardless of whether the impressions are anecdotal, "objectively comparative," or somewhere in between!

[45dotACP]

I'd definitely be interested in seeing the results! Mostly on the side of a TDA gun however, as I have been contemplating making the shift between my striker fired glock and a TDA Sig. It was before Todd got the 229 as the 2014 test gun I swear!

[ffhounddog]

I want to know how the FNS shot compared to the LEM P30.

I already know how well Mr. Langdon can shoot with a TDA gun....amazing.

[Alpha Sierra]

Being unwilling to make inconsequential changes will simply close a lot of doors for potential learning and experimentation. It's no different than people who say they'll only shoot guns that point like a Glock... even though the grip angle shouldn't make much difference if you're using the little bumpy things atop the gun to aim.

The changes that I would have needed to make to make TDA SIGs work for me were not inconsequential. Could I have done it eventually? Sure, I
ve done stuff way harder than that. Does it matter that much to me? Nope. Sold the 226 and moved on.

I gave the M&P series a good two years of effort before I gave up.

[ToddG]

AS -- Totally understand. It's a matter of degree. Some things are worth trying, some things aren't worth investing in enough to see if you can force it to work as well as what's already working fine. No criticism on my end.

[Dagga Boy]

What is funny is that I do not necessarily "shoot" the P30/HK45 "better" than other systems, but I do "run" them better across the board. "Running" them is a subjective conglomeration of a bunch of stuff, but it falls into my view that it's more than just "shooting" for what I am looking for in a carry pistol. With that said, some of the best scores I have shot on various drills lately have been with the HK's. (All LEM guns).
I figured out a long time ago with the subtle guidance of a legendary firearms instructor in SoCal that I need a different grip for every gun ("son, that ain't a 1911, so stop holding it like one"). Luckily, I have a ton of time teaching and carrying USP's with their gigantic slide release, and my "weird" HK grip works really well with the P30/HK45. The one thing I have found, particularly with the LEM guns is that you need to give them time. Most can pick up a Glock and shoot them fairly well (low and left, but well). The HK's seem to need to be learned a little, but I find a better return on the investment in the long run.

Personally, I am excited about the HK striker fired pistol not because of the trigger, but because I can now have a teaching gun that works and feels like the rest of my stuff...essentially "runs" the same with simply a different trigger.

[bobdavis]

I spent about 4 hours on the range this past Sunday trying to figure out what I shoot the best or even if there was a difference. This included an LEM P30 and a Glock 19. The test was done with guns that I have a good amount of time behind. Maybe I should post the results?


I'd be very interested - especially since I already own a few of the pistols in the picture you shared. After starting with and only shooting Glocks for years, I'm discovering TDA pistols, and I like them.

Bob

[ToddG]

"Running" them is a subjective conglomeration of a bunch of stuff, but it falls into my view that it's more than just "shooting" for what I am looking for in a carry pistol.

Thank you in advance for the blog article I will now steal from this statement. :cool:

[Guinnessman]

Lot2Learn,

Here is a great thread on the LEM that our friend Nyeti posted a while back: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot&highlight=street+trigger

It is one of my favorite threads as of lately and you may find it quite useful.

[Dagga Boy]

Thank you in advance for the blog article I will now steal from this statement. :cool:

Cause I'm a giver...................:cool:

[ToddG]

Cause I'm a giver...................:cool:

I thought the penicillin fixed that.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I thought the penicillin fixed that.
I don't think penicillin cures that, Todd.

[Lot2Learn]

Having said that, do you feel like you've reached your personal zenith with the Glock? Or are you still improving over time?

Todd, to answer your question yes I am improving over time. The sole reason for me shooting the P30 was, I wanted to try something different. There are a lot of things that I am discovering about the Glock pistol still. For instance, I can perform a reload on a G17 faster. I am confident that this is due to the length of the handle, I am sure that there are some shooters on the forum that have gotten blood blisters or worse from the base pad on a 19. I also think that while the glock 34 is good gun for both games and carry, I prefer the way the 17 shoots. Sounds weird, but that is MY perception. You are absolutely right that changing guns is expensive and that the ammo would be a better investment in the long run. I guess my ultimate goal here would be to be able to shoot any pistol with proficiency, cold and on demand. Hence the "experiment" with the P30.

So now what? Maybe I should get a JM AIWB for the 17 and go from there....Would be nice to have "The Gadget" though ;)

[Rich]

So...I was able to finally shoot a P30 tonight. The gun even has the TLG LEM trigger in it complete with the Heine sights. My background is with Glocks, I have been carrying a G19 for the past 4 years or so and it has served me well, I have taken a couple of classes with it, including AFHF. I like the G19, it's reliable and accurate as well as easy for me to shoot. In USPSA, I shoot the G17 which for all intents and purposes is like shooting the same gun. Now, back to the H&K.

I have always wanted to shoot one with the LEM trigger, Most people on this forum can understand why. For me, it was because I am bored with my Glocks and I think it is time to learn how to shoot another gun. I also wanted to know what the big deal is about a gun that costs twice as much as glock and I am not really interesting in the M&P at this point. Here are my thoughts.

What I liked:

1. This gun is accurate!
2. Recoil is very controllable and smooth. I like how the sights track.
3. Trigger, I like how the LEM works. This gun feels like it was made for the press-out. Reset will take some getting used to but I don't think it would be too hard.
4. Sights, I had forgotten how much I like the Heine straight Eight. Right now I have been shooting the Warrens but I may change back to these. They are easier for me to stay focused on the front sight.

What I didn't like:
1. I have to change my grip to get the slide to lock back consistently. Frankly, it felt foreign. Again, probably a training issue. Doing a 1R2 drill was downright frustrating.

So besides my grip issues, I really like this pistol. Does it function in a manner totally different than my current pistols? Absolutely! But, that is half the fun. I would really like to buy one, But the price is the hardest part for me to deal with. Yes, I know I would be getting a great pistol I just don't have the funds to buy one. Right now I would just like to have a case of ammo or two...I am sure some of you can relate.

I guess my biggest take away from this was that I like the LEM trigger a lot. It makes me think of what else I may be missing out on, like TDA guns. Time will tell.

I shot a P30S V3 9mm w/ TLR-1 for the first time yesterday.
I to was worried about the slide stop and a place to rest my thumb. I rest my thumb on part of the rail. I had 0 problems but only shot 200rds.

Don't like

stock sights that about it !

And I don't care for the recoil of the lawman 147gr TMJ loads. ( also have broken finger that refuses to heal) So that might of added to things??

The 124 Lawman was pleasant to shoot ! very mild compared to the 147gr.. I was surprised I shot 147 in my 5906 and never notice such a big difference before.

Accuracy seems good with both TMJ loads.

New sights and better quality JHP ammo I know it will only get better.

BTW
Still packing my Sig P229 40cal

[Lot2Learn]

Guinnessman,

Thanks for the article. I remember reading it a while ago. It is one of the reasons I wanted to shoot the P30 in the first place. It does bring up some valid points on different triggers. Good read, Thanks!

[Guinnessman]

Guinnessman,

Thanks for the article. I remember reading it a while ago. It is one of the reasons I wanted to shoot the P30 in the first place. It does bring up some valid points on different triggers. Good read, Thanks!

Lot2Learn,

No problem. Glad you enjoyed it!

In December I picked up a P30 V1 for the simple reason that I missed owning a HK. Several years ago I dumped all of my HK's because they were .40 S&W's, but I still really liked HK's. A whole bunch of Glock 9mm's showed up in the safe and it was only Glock shooting for me. When I saw a brand new P30 listed for a good price in December I thought MERRY CHRISTMAS, and ordered it right away. After only 2 months of shooting it here are my initial observations:

1. As a lefty the ambidextrous controls really help with my reloads and weapon manipulations. My slide lock reloads are 0.50 seconds faster than a Glock because of the paddle magazine release and ambi slide release.

2. My bill drills are a little slower with the HK.

3. Distance shooting from 10-25 yards is better with the HK.

4. My FAST times are TBD since I just received my Lefty Holster courtesy of our very own Dark Star Gear :)

5. Weak hand shooting with the HK is better than the Glock.

The LEM trigger has a great feel, and the hardest part for me is the longer trigger travel compared to the Glock. I plan on working hard with the LEM, and a J-frame revolver to help improve my trigger skills this year. This is going to be my year of mastering trigger control (well as much as I can)!

[Lot2Learn]

I wish you the best of luck on your goals! You can do anything you put your mind (and the work) to. Have fun with your learning process. I know that is what gets me wanting to try new things every once in a while.

[LSP972]

The one thing I have found, particularly with the LEM guns is that you need to give them time. Most can pick up a Glock and shoot them fairly well (low and left, but well). The HK's seem to need to be learned a little, but I find a better return on the investment in the long run.



This, in spades. My introduction to the LEM was via a pal's FFDO USPc .40. I had been carrying an MP-5 on SWAT for years, but was quite underwhelmed with HK handguns. The LEM was certainly different, but it was a real "Pardon me while I yawn..." moment.

Then my bride surprised me with my very own USPc .45 LEM. I wanted nothing to do with it; but you do NOT tell your bride that about the very expensive surprise gift she just gave you. So I began shooting it... and within the first 500 rounds, the light dawned. I had been carrying/shooting Glocks for a few years at this point, with 12 years of heavy Sig TDA carrying/shooting/teaching prior to that, with a solid leavening of 3rd Gen DA/SA S&W work in amongst the Sig experience. I realized that the LEM made the most sense, for a "combat pistol", of all the various actions I had been exposed to; including the 1911 "platform".

This next observation isn't an issue on this board, but most everywhere else you'll find a bunch of folks decrying the LEM who have never even handled one, much shot it extensively. That used to annoy me, and I would attempt to "school" such heathens. Waste of time, mainly. Nowadays, I just smile and nod a lot. My blood pressure needs the relief.

Interesting thread, and while I agree with the premise that one should try new things (and give them an HONEST try... i.e., more than a couple of magazines), there are times when its best to stay with what is working for you. I re-discover this dictum every time I try, yet again, to go back to Glocks. I do that to utilize the advantages of my Bowie/JPoint G19s. But I have so... melded, perhaps, is a good word?... with the HK45C (and to a lesser extent the P30) that I just cannot bring myself to give up the LEM.

Besides... Glocks are soulless. HKs have panache...:D

.

[GJM]

This, in spades. My introduction to the LEM was via a pal's FFDO USPc .40. I had been carrying an MP-5 on SWAT for years, but was quite underwhelmed with HK handguns. The LEM was certainly different, but it was a real "Pardon me while I yawn..." moment.

Then my bride surprised me with my very own USPc .45 LEM. I wanted nothing to do with it; but you do NOT tell your bride that about the very expensive surprise gift she just gave you. So I began shooting it... and within the first 500 rounds, the light dawned. I had been carrying/shooting Glocks for a few years at this point, with 12 years of heavy Sig TDA carrying/shooting/teaching prior to that, with a solid leavening of 3rd Gen DA/SA S&W work in amongst the Sig experience. I realized that the LEM made the most sense, for a "combat pistol", of all the various actions I had been exposed to; including the 1911 "platform".

This next observation isn't an issue on this board, but most everywhere else you'll find a bunch of folks decrying the LEM who have never even handled one, much shot it extensively. That used to annoy me, and I would attempt to "school" such heathens. Waste of time, mainly. Nowadays, I just smile and nod a lot. My blood pressure needs the relief.

Interesting thread, and while I agree with the premise that one should try new things (and give them an HONEST try... i.e., more than a couple of magazines), there are times when its best to stay with what is working for you. I re-discover this dictum every time I try, yet again, to go back to Glocks. I do that to utilize the advantages of my Bowie/JPoint G19s. But I have so... melded, perhaps, is a good word?... with the HK45C (and to a lesser extent the P30) that I just cannot bring myself to give up the LEM.

Besides... Glocks are soulless. HKs have panache...:D

.

After a decade of LEM experience, my view is people carry an HK LEM for a bunch of good reasons, but that choice is despite the trigger as opposed to for the trigger!

[Dagga Boy]

After a decade of LEM experience, my view is people carry an HK LEM for a bunch of good reasons, but that choice is despite the trigger as opposed to for the trigger!

I carry 1911's for the trigger...........and not a lot of logical reasons (soul and manly are good reasons, but not really logical), the P30 is sort of the opposite.

[LSP972]

After a decade of LEM experience, my view is people carry an HK LEM for a bunch of good reasons, but that choice is despite the trigger as opposed to for the trigger!

Opposite for me. The combination of an external hammer and the way the LEM functions is what does it for me. If the DAK didn't have that bizarre double reset, I'd be just as happy with a Sig.

For that matter, I'd be fine with a standard DA/SA Sig, if it came to that. I imagine the decocking habit and DA-to-SA transition muscle memory is still there, beneath the surface. And as far as I'm concerned, the Sig decocking lever is in the best possible place for such a device, for the support thumb if holding the pistol in my strong (right) hand, or trigger finger if in my support hand.

OTOH, I have no use for the V1 DA/SA/decocker variant of the USP/HK45 pistols. If there were no LEM, I wouldn't own an HK… period.

All jokes aside, the HK "panache" is just icing on the cake. Considering the job at hand (i.e., defensive shooting), they don't out-shoot a Sig in terms of practical accuracy. Unless Cohen's gun-of-the-week bling program has messed that up as well, the barrel/slide lock-up on a Sig classic P-series is as good as it gets on a service pistol. ATAP had some P228s with many tens of thousands of rounds through them; they literally rattled like crazy when you shook one. But they would still hold a three inch group off the barricade at 25 yards, if you did your part.

Truth be told, reading about Todd's new baby, and other Sig talk around here, has had me mightily resisting the urge to get one for old time's sake, if nothing else. I bought my issue P228 when I retired, and foolishly traded it for something a few years later. And it was a like-new example, too. I drew it brand new, fired it for qual twice, and put it in the closet, where it stayed for years.

What an idiot...:rolleyes:

.

[GJM]

A P30 with a Sig SRT or tuned CZ quality DA/SA trigger would be a beautiful thing.

[ToddG]

After a decade of LEM experience, my view is people carry an HK LEM for a bunch of good reasons, but that choice is despite the trigger as opposed to for the trigger!

Speaking for yourself, fine. Speaking for everyone, nope. In many cases I shoot the LEM as well or better than a Glock or 1911. It has a longer reset but from a practical standpoint once I'm shooting sub-20 splits it's getting academic. Faster is fun and I'm the first to admit the SRT > P30's DA/SA drove a lot of my choice toward the P229, but there are a ton of people who like and choose the LEM because they shoot it well.