AR15 New User

[texasaggie2005]

At long last, I've joined the AR15 owners club. My previous experience consists of firing three rounds thru a buddy's long range build, coonfingering dozens at gun stores, and a lot of internet browsing.

My goal was a GP / HD, simple, light carbine. Based on the thoughts of some members and SME's on this forum, I bought;

LE6920 Base Model
Aimpoint H1 w/ Daniel Defense Mount
MOE Fixed Carbine Stock
MOE Handguard
MOE Pistol Grip
PMAGS
Independence 55gr 5.56 NATO FMJ
Hornady 55gr GMX TAP OTM

And I'm planning on adding soon;
Surefire G2 on an undecided mount
Blue Force Gear 2-point sling


I have just a few questions;

1) Other than a basic field strip and cleaning, what do I need to look for when I first unbox it?

2) I understand a 100yd zero is a generally recommended zero for 0-200yd engagements, so that's my plan. Do I zero the irons first, then the RDS? What kind of procedure? Please keep in mind, my AR inexperience and the fact I've never zeroed a rifle before.

3) I forget, but I'm sure I'll have more later.

Thanks in advance.

[TR675]

I'm not sure I understand your first question.

Regarding the second question I like to zero irons first; you can then use them as a rough benchmark for getting your red dot on paper. Put the dot on top of the front site and then see where you are.

If you can it helps to take an experienced rifle shooter along to spot and help with zeroing. Especially when starting out zeroing can be a PITA, at least if you're anything like me and start chasing unrealistic levels of precision. My buddy helps tell me to knock it off and call it good.

[texasaggie2005]

I've seen references to improperly staked gas keys, loose FSB's, etc. Anything in particular I need to check, prior to shooting?

I believe the DD mount gives a lower 1/3 cowitness, so would putting the red dot on the front post be beneficial?

I agree on the experienced shooter part, I just don't know one that is familiar with AR's.

[TR675]

Got it. Normally issues like that are not problems with Colts. I wouldn't worry about it too much. A slight cant to the front site isn't really a concern. You only need to be worried about it when it takes a huge amount of adjustment on the rear sight to get it on target.

M4carbine has threads that have pictures of what properly staked gas keys look like. You might want to check them out.

Regarding the one third cowitness, I have one myself and it seems to work just fine. It won't be exact but it'll get you close enough to really dial it in from there.

Where are you at in Texas? I wouldn't exactly call myself "experienced", but If you're near me I have access to a 200 yard range and am happy to lend a hand, for what it's worth.

Sounds like you've got a well thought out set up.

[texasaggie2005]

Thanks for the advice. I'm in NW Houston.

[Suvorov]

My best advice given your location is to head up to Paul Howe's CSAT for the tactical carbine class. He should be running a class soon and it will really give you a good foundation on which to build your rifle marksmanship skills.

http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/

Given you bought yourself a Colt - I really wouldn't worry one bit about the gas key staking or any other quality issues.

[JDM]

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3090-Carbine-Basics

Lots of very useful information in the above thread.

[texasaggie2005]

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3090-Carbine-Basics

Lots of very useful information in the above thread.

I have had multiple pages of that thread bookmarked. F2S's posts were very informative. Pretty sure I've read every AR related thread on this forum in its entirety.

[texasaggie2005]

My best advice given your location is to head up to Paul Howe's CSAT for the tactical carbine class. He should be running a class soon and it will really give you a good foundation on which to build your rifle marksmanship skills.

http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/

Given you bought yourself a Colt - I really wouldn't worry one bit about the gas key staking or any other quality issues.

One of his classes is a goal of mine within the next year or two.

[Odin Bravo One]

At long last, I've joined the AR15 owners club.

I bought;

LE6920 Base Model
Aimpoint H1 w/ Daniel Defense Mount
MOE Fixed Carbine Stock
MOE Handguard
MOE Pistol Grip
PMAGS
Independence 55gr 5.56 NATO FMJ
Hornady 55gr GMX TAP OTM


2) I understand a 100yd zero is a generally recommended zero for 0-200yd engagements, so that's my plan. Do I zero the irons first, then the RDS? What kind of procedure? Please keep in mind, my AR inexperience and the fact I've never zeroed a rifle before.


F2S is one I know who advocates a 100 zero.
Paul Howe is another.
And there are plenty of other highly knowledgeable, and experienced trainers who do as well.

All have the creds to back up their opinions.

I prefer 200, but that's just me.....it is a much more in depth topic than can really be "This is what it shall be".

LtCol., USMC (Ret.) Freddie Blish of ROBAR wrote an excellent piece on "zero" distances, PROS/CONS, etc. Maybe Tam can help us out here........IIRC, it was published in SWAT.

Tam???

As for the procedure......there are several.

Mine:

I go with irons first, without anything else mounted. I use a QD mount for my AimPoint, for if it goes Tango Uniform, I will be removing it at the first viable opportunity. If my optic fails, I don't want extra stuff to have to look through. Especially if the lens(es) are spiderwebbed.

I ensure all of my mounting hardware for optics (or anything else being bolted on) is tightened to spec. If you don't have a torque wrench, use the "P" factor. (for Plenty). Gorilla grip them on, and use a paint pen to mark the final resting point. This allows me to give a quick glance to every object/item hanging off my gun, and know that the screws have not backed out, and all "should" be just fine.

I use the prone, supported by sandbags or a rest if available, but trying to maintain as much of my unsupported prone as possible. Bench is fine, but unless you are only going to shoot from the bench, prone can be a little more forgiving of other positions than the bench.

At my chosen zero distance, I fire a 5 round group at a target. I prefer to use those that have adjustment grid lines, but it's not a big deal if I don't. They make these crazy things called rulers that I have used and work "good enough". Measure from the center of my impacts/group to the desired point of impact, and adjust based on the manufacturer's assessment of their range of adjustment per click. Not all sights are the same, and not all adjust the same. I either mark with a sharpie, or just pastie the old holes so they don't cause confusion at any point.

Once back, settle back in on my belly, and hit it with another five. Measure again, tweak sights as required.

Once back, fire a group to confirm zero is where I want it.

Paint pen. This time, on the rear sight windage knob......would really suck to find out that has been bumped 3 revolutions. I find my index lines not lined up on this piece often enough to give validation to the practice.

Mount chosen optic.

Repeat.

Done.

For irons, use your front sight to adjust for elevation, even if your rear has adjustments. If the rear does have adjustments, set it to whatever range you are shooting from, and adjust the front sight to desired point of impact. I don't mark the front, since it is held firmly in place by the detent.

For a BNIB gun, I start at 25 yards, and get on paper first. Once I am within 3-5" of my Point of Aim, I move to my zero distance. At 25, close enough is really close enough. Any elevation changes you make to get gnats ass at 25 you will simply have to undo anyway, so close is good enough. You will be able to hit your target at 100 or 200, and make adjustments, which is all you need the 25 yard range to do for you.

I only fire three groups. If you know the sight's/optic's adjustment increments, and apply them properly, there should be no reason to shoot more. (experienced AR shooter can help with this)
1) Large adjustments
2) Fine adjustments
3) Confirmation




I've seen references to improperly staked gas keys, loose FSB's, etc. Anything in particular I need to check, prior to shooting?

I believe the DD mount gives a lower 1/3 cowitness, so would putting the red dot on the front post be beneficial?


It is really hard to go wrong with the gear you have. Everyone makes crap once in awhile, but as has been beat to death already, Colt sucks a lot less often than most.

Co-witness is all well and good......until you have to shoot at night. If shooting at night is not on the playlist, then some people claim it matters/makes a difference. I don't concern myself with it. One the guns I have a T-1/H-1/R-1 on, I don't really care about "co-witness" in terms of where in the optic the front sight assembly is showing. I do want it inside the circle of the optic, so if I get a battery or electronics failure, (vs. broken due to impact or bullet impact) I can use the tube of the micro as my rear sight aperture. I use only Troy BUIS's on my rifles, which gives me a relative amount of similarity in SA/SP between guns similarly equipped, allowing me a reasonable degree of predictability, and ability to still consistently hit inside the combat standard of accuracy out to 50 yards.



My best advice given your location is to head up to Paul Howe's CSAT for the tactical carbine class. He should be running a class soon and it will really give you a good foundation on which to build your rifle marksmanship skills.

http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/

Given you bought yourself a Colt - I really wouldn't worry one bit about the gas key staking or any other quality issues.

Yeah. This......

You actually have a large pool to choose from in TX. Granted, it is a BIG state, but you can probably find several that will be in an area near you.

And you don't have to figure it all out at once. It's ok to ease into it. Do not take anything as gospel (even from expert trainers, there are a variety of different, but very valid opinions), and evolve your gun, gear, needs, and desires as you evolve as a shooter, and become more experienced with your AR.

Enjoy your new rifle.........good luck!

[Tamara]

LtCol., USMC (Ret.) Freddie Blish of ROBAR wrote an excellent piece on "zero" distances, PROS/CONS, etc. Maybe Tam can help us out here........IIRC, it was published in SWAT.

Looking through back issues here now. I know Pat Rogers had a pair of articles on zeroing in 2012, April and August issues.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm a big fan of the 50 yard/meter zero for 5.56/.223 class carbines, but 100 works too. 25 is right out, mid range trajectory gets stupid.

[texasaggie2005]

Sean M, thanks for taking the time to write that out, I really appreciate it.

Chuck, I can see the benefit of a 50/200 zero. It's basically a +/- 2.5in all the way out to ~250yrds or so. I like the idea of the 100yd zero, simply because it eliminates the need for a holdunder. I've shot bolt action rifles for hunting, so I'm more used to the idea of holdovers, than I am to holdunders, so I was trying to simplify my processes.

[Default.mp3]

I'm assuming that this is the article Sean M. was referring to: http://robarguns.com/blog/2013/11/24/battle-sight-zero-bzo-who-has-it-right/

I'm actually having a bit of difficulty finding an intro carbine course around me (also NW Houston) from an instructor I trust, besides Paul Howe (I am signed up for his course coming up in May). Originally was going to go with Kenan Flasowski, but he hasn't been teaching recently due to other work commitments.

I'm still curious about the basic mechanics of the 50/200 zero. It is my understanding that zeroing at 50 yards will get you a crossover point at 200 meters... or so the basic idea goes. Am I suppose to be doing a rough zero at 50 yards, and then adjusting for POA/POI at 200 meters? Does this hold true for any barrel length, e.g., there will be minimal differences in POI at 50 yards if both a 14.5" and a 10.5" are POA/POI at 200 meters? If I'm having trouble finding a 200 meter range, would a 200 yard zero be sufficient, and I'd just have to remember my holds accordingly?

[texasaggie2005]

Here is great post on AR15.com by Molon (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_18/328143_.html). Below is a picture of his, showing the differences between the 3 main zero's.

2183

[Tamara]

I'm assuming that this is the article Sean M. was referring to: http://robarguns.com/blog/2013/11/24/battle-sight-zero-bzo-who-has-it-right/

Derp. Thank you for that! I don't know why I didn't think to GTS. :o

[TheTrevor]

For what it's worth, I use the 50/225yd zero for iron sights on 5.56; 40/240yd zero for iron sights on 5.45x39, and 100yd zero with reticle-based bullet drop compensation for my rifles with Burris MTAC scopes. I do the vast majority of my rifle shooting in the 100yd-and-under range, so most of my aim adjustment consists of compensating for height-over-bore at short ranges rather than bullet drop at extended ranges.

One of these days I'm going to mount an Aimpoint Micro directly on the front tube of a 5.56 gun and see if I can get comfortable running a low-and-forward sight for short range work. It'd be pretty cool to have a usable 15m zero on a sight with <1.5" height-over-bore.

[BoppaBear]

Second spending the money on a course. I also prefer zeroing with irons and optic separately...and second, third, and fourth reading Sean's post multiple times. Soup to nuts, that's very much the way I've been "trained"...I'm far from an SME, but it's nice to have one validate how I've been taught.

[TheTrevor]

I'm still curious about the basic mechanics of the 50/200 zero. It is my understanding that zeroing at 50 yards will get you a crossover point at 200 meters... or so the basic idea goes. Am I suppose to be doing a rough zero at 50 yards, and then adjusting for POA/POI at 200 meters?

Nope. Rough zero at 25 to get you on paper, then zero at 50. Just remember that you'll need twice as many clicks on the sights to shift POI at 50yd as you will at 100yd.

Also, strictly speaking, it's more like a 50/225 zero for typical 55gr or 62gr 5.56 ammo.


Does this hold true for any barrel length, e.g., there will be minimal differences in POI at 50 yards if both a 14.5" and a 10.5" are POA/POI at 200 meters? If I'm having trouble finding a 200 meter range, would a 200 yard zero be sufficient, and I'd just have to remember my holds accordingly?

You're not going to get the same external ballistics out of a 10.5" barrel because the muzzle velocity is going to be lower. There are ballistics calculators out there which can take the data for, say, XM855 out of a 10.5" barrel at a particular muzzle velocity and predict where the second zero crossing will be -- but I'm pretty sure it isn't going to be 225yd.

In my limited personal experience, a 14.5 with a pinned muzzle device (shortest legal non-SBR setup) is close enough to a 16.0 barrel that I haven't noticed any significant difference when zeroing the 14.5 at 50yd and shooting out to 100yd. I'm sure the difference would begin to be noticeable if you wanted to make precise shots past ~250yd, but IMHO, that's not the typical application of a civilian 14.5 AR.

[Odin Bravo One]

I'll jump in with my "words have meanings" rant.........

Your "Zero", is the range at which you have sighted in, verified, and achieve POA/POI.

In this case, there is only a single number. If you zero at 50, you will not be zeroed at 200, or 210, or 225. You will be zeroed at 50.

Due to the lack of ranges with the capability to get to 200, and the general lack of students to efficiently get a 200 yard zero, many trainers who advocate a 200 yard zero use 50, as it is likely good enough for their purposes. In most gun/ammo combinations, it will probably be good enough, and fairly close to the same POI at both 50 & 200...... But when limited to 50 yards I'll get an initial 50 yard zero, but the first chance I get..........I'm reaching out to 200 for the real "zero". Marksmanship errors masked at 50 will be evident at 200........and that tends to change things when trying to hit small targets.

[TheTrevor]

Sean, no disagreement on any point. It can be tedious and sometimes confusing to civilian newbies to differentiate between initial 50yd zero (as you so clearly defined it) vs the second POA/POI intersection point which will be somewhere around 200yd, so it's easy to slip into calling both points "zero" even though only one is an actual verified zero. You were right to point out that I got sloppy with that, and I'll correct that going forward.


But when limited to 50 yards I'll get an initial 50 yard zero, but the first chance I get..........I'm reaching out to 200 for the real "zero". Marksmanship errors masked at 50 will be evident at 200........and that tends to change things when trying to hit small targets.

Wisdom.

(BTW, we missed being classmates in elementary/middle school by a year or two. Small world.)

[Chuck Haggard]

I'll throw out that every new AR shooter needs to buy or borrow a copy of Kyle Lamb's 'Green Eyes, Black Rifles' book and read it, front to back.

[rob_s]

I'll throw out that every new AR shooter needs to buy or borrow a copy of Kyle Lamb's 'Green Eyes, Black Rifles' book and read it, front to back.

This is a good suggestion, and while it won't replace going to a class it is a great supplement. I find that there are several things I personally do different, but I. The absence of "a way" this is a great start.

[Odin Bravo One]

I'm assuming that this is the article Sean M. was referring to: http://robarguns.com/blog/2013/11/24/battle-sight-zero-bzo-who-has-it-right/

I'm actually having a bit of difficulty finding an intro carbine course around me (also NW Houston) from an instructor I trust, besides Paul Howe (I am signed up for his course coming up in May). Originally was going to go with Kenan Flasowski, but he hasn't been teaching recently due to other work commitments.


Indeed, that is the article. And printed in it's entirety, best as I can tell at a glance.

Trident Concepts (Sean M is obviously biased by his common background, and is also a sometimes employee of TRICON) is located in Cedar Park. Jeff offers quite a few classes every year in the local area, and I know he has hit Houston more than a few times in the past. Might be worth looking at his schedule.

Combative Carbine I is a course, that if I could, I would take every year as a student.


You were right to point out that I got sloppy with that, and I'll correct that going forward.


(BTW, we missed being classmates in elementary/middle school by a year or two. Small world.)

Sorry, after re-reading, realized that came off kind assh*ole-ish......not meant to be. But since we have many folks following the topic who are using the numbers interchangeably, it is important to make distinctions, as it tends to create more confusion, (or perhaps misunderstanding is a better description) for folks still trying to wrap their head(s) around the concept.

The issue with using two numbers (as well as some other assumed/presumed info re: zero) is that it is 100% theoretical math. Gun to gun, ammo to ammo, optic to optic, even using the proper "formula" for sight adjustments and zero/in flight ballistic data, there are flaws where the theory does not match what is happening down range. This is why serious precision shooters have and use a DOPE book.

Many people tend to use elements of other's DOPE such as velocity, bullet weight/type, barometric pressure, air density, humidity, temperature, etc. EVERY ballistic chart published is using someone else's DOPE. Taking that Data Of Previous Engagments, they hypothesize the probable (or sometimes just hope/desire) outcome of their engagement(s) with their given set up. The issues associated with using someone else's data (and expecting the exact same results), is that (1) it is only as accurate and reliable as the person collection the data, and (2) the variables involved will be different from shot to shot in any engagement, but they are exasperated the further from the initial variables they get. Using someone else's info can get you close, but the only way to know for sure is to get out and do it yourself, with your gear.

Consistency is the key component to accuracy. Using a 77 grain SMKBTHP as an example.......... Black Hills has published data for their loading of the Mk262 Mod 1 ammunition they produce. It is widely available to anyone who has the mojo to GTS. But their results are drastically different than mine. Ammo manufacturer's publish/advertise velocities that many of us will never achieve with our guns, using the same bullets. They generally produce their data in tightly controlled (consistent) conditions, and use equipment we don't.

With my 16" Noveske VTAC Recce, using a 200 yard zero, I hit about 1" low at 50 yards, and my max deviation is about 3" high @ 130 yards. After about 225, that round falls off the cliff and begins to plummet, fast.

With my 16" Daniel Defense V2, using the exact same everything, I am about 1.5" low at 50, and 3.5" high @ 130, with an even sharper drop beyond 200.

Same shooter. Same barrel length. Same ammo (even same lot number). Same optic. Same range. Same day. Different results. Not drastic by any means. And for practical purposes, the differences are virtually irrelevant. But differences just the same.......

I consider the correct understanding of "zero" to be essential to be able to move beyond basics, and grasp an understanding that leads to capability increase, and can help prevent newer shooters from being so focused on getting a nickel, they don't bother to pick up dollar bills, or properly prioritize or put "practical reality checks" on what they are doing, using, buying, etc.

[rob_s]

The only way to know ones zero and drop for sure is to go shoot the gun. At least that's been my experience. Everyone in classes starts out with a theoretical this and a maybe that, and sometimes gets bogged down in their own preconception as to the way things ought to be.

If you want a 200 yard zero, go shoot at 200. If you only shoot at 50 all you have is a 50 yard initial intersection("near zero", if you must) and not much else. That may well be good enough, but not usually. Get a good 200 yard zero, then check the POI at various other distances.

Randy Cain teaches the 200 yard zero, and if you take his class on a 200 yard range you'll get a real understanding of the way to archive that zero, along with working on positions. There might be an article in an old issue of SWAT about that too...

[Chuck Haggard]

I have to strongly concur with the idea of working the longer ranges to confirm dope if one has the range in order to get that done.


As has been noted, I also start out at the 25 to get tuned on paper, "zero" at the 50, then start walking back to confirm my zero. The ranges I have available allow me to take our officers back to the 150, and the gun club I go to allows on paper to the 250 and beating up on the steel at 300.

I do the same thing with my deer guns and log my dope, a habit I picked up when I was a designated shooter on my team. If I change even the lot of ammo on a scoped gun I will reshoot at various distances to recheck things. There is often a change in POI with changes in ammo.


For the average dude wanting to have a carbine for home defense and such, some of this may be overkill, but it's good stuff to know.


On that subject, working with various makes of ARs, various shooters, and various ammo, I find that one can get a workable defensive zero using the 50 yard "zero" if that is all of the range one can get to due to range restraints.

At one point at work we had pool guns assigned to the cars, a stupid idea, but I wanted to see exactly what we had to work with. Using carbines zero'd at the 50, and using a mix of 60gr TAP and 55gr M193, I found that every capable shooter could pick up any of the guns with either ammo loaded and get head shots on target at the 50 and torso shots at the 100 almost 100% of the time.
I file it under "not the best way to do business in a perfect world, however, comma, crude but effective"

[Molon]

I'm still curious about the basic mechanics of the 50/200 zero.

AR-15 Zeros and Trajectories . . . http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_18/512335_.html

[TheTrevor]

AR-15 Zeros and Trajectories . . . http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_18/512335_.html

Definitely recommended reading. I referred to that article extensively when I was zeroing the 45* offset iron sights on my carbine, and I'm a huge fan of the RIBZ.

Also: thank you for writing it, Molon.

[texasaggie2005]

http://i.imgur.com/vVQqM7H.jpg

Finally got out to the range this morning, 300 "flawless" rounds. Couldn't be happier with it. Though I do feel like it took me too many rounds to zero the irons and RDS.

[Odin Bravo One]

300 rounds is a lot to zero...........!!!! (I am assuming it took less....I hope?)

But, that is going to happen until you are intimately familiar with every aspect of the gear you are using. Bullets, front sight assembly, rear sight, optic, etc. Not all sights adjust at the same intervals. With irons, that can be very frustrating. Give it time, and you will soon pick up more and more info, and any time you need to re-zero, or confirm, the number of rounds fired and time spent will decrease.

Zeroing those particular back up rear sights can be a chore as well. In my limited AR experience, I have found those sights to be only one small step better than no back up sights at all.

[texasaggie2005]

300 rounds is a lot to zero...........!!!! (I am assuming it took less....I hope?)

No sir. About 50-60 to get my irons and RDS zeroed at 50yds. At around 100, I was keeping all my shots within a 8" circle.

[Odin Bravo One]

Ok, so roughly double of what someone with significantly more time and experience on the gun is expected to be able to zero irons and RDS.

I wouldn't get too wrapped up about it. It will get better with more practice.

In Restricted LE (i.e., dedicated tactical team) classes, with guys who have significant time and experience on their guns, we have had 50 yard "rough" zero take more rounds by individual shooters. Had one course where the team used the entire first day of a 5 day course to get solid zero's.

At 100 for true zero (their SOP).........we had a team leader who fired 80 rounds to get zero on both sighting systems. This was AFTER the rough zero @ 50. He was a 20+ year cop, 10+ years on the full time tactical team, department firearms instructor for 15 years, SWAT firearms trainer for 5 or 6 years, and had just finished his assignment as the lead sniper for their team prior to his team leader position. He was a very talented marksman, who took his shooting seriously. He was just having a rough day.

I try to do 15/15 when starting from scratch. Three volleys of five rounds each with irons, and repeat with RDS. But even then, I've had it take double. We all have rough days.

[TGS]

No sir. About 50-60 to get my irons and RDS zeroed at 50yds. At around 100, I was keeping all my shots within a 8" circle.

Got any NRA Service Rifle clinics planned?

[texasaggie2005]

Ok, so roughly double of what someone with significantly more time and experience on the gun is expected to be able to zero irons and RDS.

Yeah. I even screwed up some. Zeroed my irons while closing my left eye and using only my right. Thought I would take a shortcut, and adjusted my RDS to roughly cowitness with the irons. Then I started banging away with both eyes open on the red dot, and couldn't hit anything. I was chasing the dot all over the target trying to find my shot. Got pissed and took a break. While eating a snack, it dawned on me, and man did I feel dumb. Had to start all over. I probably wasted 25 rounds out of the 50+.

[texasaggie2005]

Got any NRA Service Rifle clinics planned?

Hadn't heard of that, I'll look into it. Thanks.

[Odin Bravo One]

Well, it's done anyway...........

[TGS]

Hadn't heard of that, I'll look into it. Thanks.

They might ask you to take off your RDS, but I think that's a small concession for what you could gain. Granted, the last clinic I attended was over a decade ago.....but zero'ing was covered, as well as writing down your D.O.P.E. It's an excellent opportunity if you find one by you.

[TGS]

Zeroing those particular back up rear sights can be a chore as well. In my limited AR experience, I have found those sights to be only one small step better than no back up sights at all.

What's their issue(s), Sean?

[Odin Bravo One]

What's their issue(s), Sean?

Where to start?

Poor QC.
Plastic, and not good plastic at that= Flimsy and easily broken.
They do not lock into the deployed position.
Wandering zero.


Cheap, "look cool", and featured on Call of Duty are about the only things I have found going for them.

[shootist26]

They do not lock into the deployed position.


That was the issue that made me ditch them pretty fast. They are very easy to accidentally fold down when the rifle is handled/manipulated. Something I didn't really think about until I got out on the range and put some work into them. They were inexpensive which was the main attraction for me, and my thinking back then was "it's just a backup, who cares."

[texasaggie2005]

Where to start?

Poor QC.
Plastic, and not good plastic at that= Flimsy and easily broken.
They do not lock into the deployed position.
Wandering zero.


Cheap, "look cool", and featured on Call of Duty are about the only things I have found going for them.

Yeah, I wasn't impressed with them, but its what came on the rifle. What would you recommend for a folding rear?

[rob_s]

Yeah, I wasn't impressed with them, but its what came on the rifle. What would you recommend for a folding rear?
I haven't kept up with all the new hotness, and I know we are supposed to hate the company now (although I forget why) but I've had great luck with the Troy flip fonts & rears for a long time now. I think they even have a new model coming out that's made some improvements.

[texasaggie2005]

I think it's because they hired somebody that was involved with Ruby Ridge.

Troy's look nice. Quick question though, it looks like that when you switch from the large to small peep, it may change your zero since it's rotating a half turn on the adjustment screw?

2209

[rob_s]

I believe they advertise the apertures as same-plane is I assume they've taken that into account.

I use the fixed version on my irons-only gun and have had no POI problems going from one aperture to the other.

[orionz06]

I haven't had issues with mine out to 300 yards swapping apertures.

[texasaggie2005]

rob_s & orionz06

Thank you for the answers, that makes sense. I'll add it on to my "future upgrade list".