DOJ Staff Report on Fast & Furious (Project Gunwalker/Gunrunner)

[Shellback]

I have not had an opportunity to read the report in full but thought others might like to have the opportunity. Please go here (http://oversight.house.gov/images/stories/Reports/ATF_Report.pdf) for the official DOJ staff report on Operation Fast and Furious.

[Shellback]

You can watch the hearings live right now: http://www.c-span.org/Events/Fast-and-Furious-a-Catastrophic-Disaster/10737422274-2/

[NickA]

I really hope they get to the bottom of this mess, though I'm not overly optimistic. At least maybe they can put the "90% of cartel guns come from the US" canard to rest.

[mnealtx]

I really hope they get to the bottom of this mess, though I'm not overly optimistic. At least maybe they can put the "90% of cartel guns come from the US" canard to rest.

That one is pretty well shot down, I think...

From El Universal (Mexican news site, translated via babelfish):

"From year 2007 an annual increase of the seizures of arms on the part of the Sedena, and the information is being registered significant sample that in 2010 the securings, that added 83 thousands 613, grew 83% with respect to the seized thing in 2009, when 45 thousands 630 were seized. "

So, 129,243 weapons seized, and just shy of 30k submitted for tracing per CNN:

"More than 70% of 29,284 firearms submitted to the U.S. Department of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives for tracing by the Mexican government during 2009 and 2010 originated in the United States, according to the report"

15.8% of the seized weapons came from the US (29284*.7/129243)- how many of them were from Gunwalker/F&F?

[NickA]

Sure, WE know that it's actually 90% of a small portion of the grand total, but those who only get their news from the "mainstream" media and the Brady bunch (same thing?) are only hearing the 90%. Of course they also think that all those machine guns and RPG's were bought at gun shows.

[mnealtx]

Unfortunately, that's all too true....

[Mitchell, Esq.]

No shit most of the weapons came from the USA.

They were sold the Mexican Armed Forces, then 'lost' to the cartels.

The reason Mexico hasn't filed it's bullshit lawsuit against US firearms dealers and manufacturers is that they don't want to have to undergo discovery in US Courts and disclose "Yeah...the guns we claims came from the USA were sold to the Mexican Army and are still on out TOE..."

[Kyle Reese]

No shit most of the weapons came from the USA.

They were sold the Mexican Armed Forces, then 'lost' to the cartels.

The reason Mexico hasn't filed it's bullshit lawsuit against US firearms dealers and manufacturers is that they don't want to have to undergo discovery in US Courts and disclose "Yeah...the guns we claims came from the USA were sold to the Mexican Army and are still on out TOE..."

I pray they're that stupid.

I doubt it would matter to the majority of the American public anyways, as long as Dancing with the Stars is on. Bread & Circuses.....

[Josh Runkle]

Lying and buying involves a straw
purchaser falsely filling out ATF Form 4473, which is to be completed truthfully in order to
legally acquire a firearm.

Hmmm...It was my understanding that it was required to "purchase" a firearm not to "acquire" a firearm. I thought it was solely a regulation of commerce and not gun ownership, so that they could legally get around "abridging" the people's right to keep and bear arms.

...Similar to a form 4 being an "Application to pay a tax" since it would be illegal under 2A to make you "apply to own" a firearm, etc...

[TGS]

Hmmm...It was my understanding that it was required to "purchase" a firearm not to "acquire" a firearm.


You can purchase a firearm online with a credit card. It already belongs to you when it gets to your FFL of choice, but to actually acquire it you'll need a 4473.

Here's a good one: In New Jersey, it's actually illegal to own a firearm. You're only able to possess one through exceptions listed in the law......

[JDM]

You can purchase a firearm online with a credit card. It already belongs to you when it gets to your FFL of choice, but to actually acquire it you'll need a 4473.

Here's a good one: In New Jersey, it's actually illegal to own a firearm. You're only able to possess one through exceptions listed in the law......

I'd like to read that statute. That's freaking awful.

[joshs]

You can purchase a firearm online with a credit card. It already belongs to you when it gets to your FFL of choice, but to actually acquire it you'll need a 4473.

The firearm cannot "belong" to you until you fill out the 4473 and undergo a NICS check. What if you failed the NICS check?

Federal law does regulate "commerce" in firearms, or, in the case of the NFA, the taxation of certain firearms. However, many states, like New Jersey, regulate the acquisition of firearms, except in limited circumstances (I think NJ allows firearms to be transferred in the disposition of an estate without a firearm purchaser identification card or a permit to purchase a handgun, as the case may be.) In other states, like Virginia, intrastate acquisition of firearms from non-FFLs is almost entirely unregulated.

Back on the Gunwalker topic. I found the hearing transcript very interesting, especially since no one at BATFE seems to remember who authorized operation F&F in the first place. They've definitely shown that BATFE leadership was at least aware of the operation. During the hearing Issa mentions that Director Melson's office wanted the I.P. addresses of cameras in the targeted gun stores, presumably so he could see the straw purchases occurring himself.

[Shellback]

The only motivation I can see for this operation is to get more guns into Mexico illegally, use them in more crimes, and then point the finger at the "lax American gun laws" as being the culprit in order to enact more gun laws.

[rsa-otc]

[/URL]
I'd like to read that statute. That's freaking awful.

No you don't, you'll be pulling your hair out. It's disjointed hard to follow and of course makes no sense in many ways what so ever. We are the state of exceptions. You can only do A if you meet exception B. Finding that exception can be harrowing.

Example: In 2c:39 the who may possess a firearm section, it states that no one under the age of 18 may possess/handle a long gun and not one under the age of 21 a handgun (you may not lend your gun to another person to go to the range and try it without personally being there, you may not lend your shotgun to a family member to go hunting unless you are personally present and in both cases no longer than 8 hours). This same section gives all the exceptions for target practice, hunting etc. but doesn't mention any exceptions for underage persons. It would seem to me to be proper place to mention any age exceptions. So if you just read this section you would think that by handing your underage child a firearm for hunting or target practice you are breaking the law. You can get a Jr hunter lic. at the age of 10 in this state. You need to go to the end of 2c:58 to find the underage exceptions. 19 sections later.

Under the law the Police have 60 days to approve or carry permit (for the few of us who can qualify under very strict and limited parameters) or else the permit is "Deemed to be approved" by the Superintendent of the State Police or Chief of Police. In the AG's version called NJ Administrative Code Title 13 Law and Public Safety Chapter 54 this is totally left out. In reality the way the process works is that once the Chief or Superintendent approve the permit it goes to the Superior Court Judge of the County you reside in, who must approve the permit and sign it as well. They won't do so without the Chiefs or Superintendent's approval. In 30 plus years of doing this I have only seen one superior court judge take the police to task for their handling of an application, and that judge was moved out of that position because he rubbed to many people the wrong way. I liked him he shot fairly and straight from the hip. I have seen "RENEWALS" go as long as a year.

Link to the laws: http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_ag2.html

Other NJ "HELPFUL" Firearms info:http://www.njsp.org/about/firearms.html

[rsa-otc]

However, many states, like New Jersey, regulate the acquisition of firearms, except in limited circumstances (I think NJ allows firearms to be transferred in the disposition of an estate without a firearm purchaser identification card or a permit to purchase a handgun, as the case may be.)

That is the law, but in reality the law states that you must the requirements of section 2C:39 to take the gun into your possession. In a recent case that was interpreted that the only way for the executor of the estate to know this was if you possess a firearms ID card.

[TCinVA]

Back on the Gunwalker topic. I found the hearing transcript very interesting, especially since no one at BATFE seems to remember who authorized operation F&F in the first place.


Ample evidence that some people should be unemployed. Leadership of a federal LE organization saying that they don't know who authorized an op is nonsense.


The only motivation I can see for this operation is to get more guns into Mexico illegally, use them in more crimes, and then point the finger at the "lax American gun laws" as being the culprit in order to enact more gun laws.

I have a rule:

Never attribute to conspiracy those things which can easily be explained by stupidity. While there are many hard working, honest, competent people working within the BATFE, I've maintained for years that the leadership of that organization is perpetually three beans short of a burrito. Have you seen that commercial where a middle-aged man tells a woman that being smart won't get her anywhere in the company and then asks the old CEO type if he's smart?

I rather imagine it runs like that.

[rsa-otc]

With regards to the topic of this thread. This whole thing is a cluster. It has become politically motivated and I don't see a resolution. We all know what the actual statistics are but the gun haters will not address them and claim it is us who are misrepresenting the case as it were.

What should have happened when the Mexican President addressed congress and chastised us, any red blooded American congressman should have got up and walked out. It was an affront and an insult.

This whole gun runner/fast and furious debacle is an embarrassment. Holder and company especially the head of the BATF need to be at least thrown out if not criminally charged.

[TCinVA]

Upon hearing that drivel the speaker of the house should have stood up and run down the litany of criminal and social problems Mexico is exporting to the United States while he was still standing there.

[JDM]

Snip


Thanks for the rundown and the links.

[Shellback]

Never attribute to conspiracy those things which can easily be explained by stupidity.

You always have a great way with words! :cool:

[NickA]

Upon hearing that drivel the speaker of the house should have stood up and run down the litany of criminal and social problems Mexico is exporting to the United States while he was still standing there.
+1000. Embarassing that none of our "leaders" had the balls to call him on that. I guess it wouldn't be diplomatic, but I say f*ck a bunch of diplomacy when someone dumps on you in your own house.

[rsa-otc]

+1000. Embarassing that none of our "leaders" had the balls to call him on that. I guess it wouldn't be diplomatic, but I say f*ck a bunch of diplomacy when someone dumps on you in your own house.

A-right, he wasn't worried about diplomacy in his address to us was he? See thats the problem we spend to much time trying to be touchy feelly while the rest of the world craps on us.

[Kyle Reese]

Upon hearing that drivel the speaker of the house should have stood up and run down the litany of criminal and social problems Mexico is exporting to the United States while he was still standing there.

If we have the capacity to conduct predator drone attacks in the tribal regions of Pakistan, we can conduct them against the cartels.....

[Mitchell, Esq.]

If we have the capacity to conduct predator drone attacks in the tribal regions of Pakistan, we can conduct them against the cartels.....

Clear and Present Danger...

Been done before, and Jack Ryan ended up making the president throw the elections...

[JM Campbell]

I'm sure us Texans would feel a lot safer with armed Predators flying our boarders, shit I'd tow the smoker out to the ground crews once a week to provide lunch.

A brisket and sausage plate with potato salad, jalapeno bacon beans, and sweet tea for every JDAM dropped.

[John Ralston]

I'm sure us Texans would feel a lot safer with armed Predators flying our boarders, shit I'd tow the smoker out to the ground crews once a week to provide lunch.

A brisket and sausage plate with potato salad, jalapeno bacon beans, and sweet tea for every JDAM dropped.

I like the way you think!

[dookie1481]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/08/27/issa-goes-to-war-with-new-york-times-over-false-story/?test=latestnews