Losing Your Gun to the Evidence Locker.

[GardoneVT]

It's my impression-correct me if I'm wrong- that a handgun carried for CCW or LE duty is handed over for evidence pending disposition of the self defense case. A process which I'd imagine takes at least weeks , and probably months or years worst case scenario.

While I realize my life and health is a priceless resource, the idea of losing an expensive pistol -or one expertly customized-to the authorities troubles me.After watching Todd's P229 get improved , the throught I had was how much of a crime it would be to see some vindictive DA order that fine piece scrapped just because it was used to smoke a goblin. While my guns arent nearly as expertly modified, there's a certain appeal to carrying a basic Glock with new sights and relegating the "nice guns" to safe queen duty.If a basic G22 is sent to the scrap heap, so what .I'd be a lot more bent out of shape if an HK P30 I dropped $900 on got scrapped.

As far as spares go, that gets tougher the more expensive the gun becomes. Two Glocks or two M&Ps are easier to swing financially then two Sigs ,two HKs or two customized 1911s. Another argument for a basic carry gun .

Much ado about nothing? I'm looking at possibly going the P30 route, but that's a transition which will cost me $2000 factoring in holsters and magazines with two pistols, and I'm concerned about losing a gun to police custody which costs $900 and has to be special ordered in my neck of the woods.

[JV_]

I think that if your gun ends up in the "evidence locker" you'll be far more concerned about your legal bills and/or a guilty conviction than the cost of your gun.

[KeeFus]

Yes, it goes away for awhile which is another reason to have another weapon just like the one sent off. It took me 3 years to get mine (department issued G21) back but the family attorney had an order signed by a judge to hold ALL of the evidence for 2 years. The actual testing part by the State only took a couple months but that order held it and all other evidence in limbo.

Other guys from here have had theirs back within 6 months or so.

Muchado about nothing? I dunno but plan on it being gone awhile. As far as getting scrapped...dependent upon the jurisdiction I guess. Here most folks get theirs back but its after the DA or Grand Jury has made up their mind as to whether or not to pursue a criminal case.

[GardoneVT]

I think that if your gun ends up in the "evidence locker" you'll be far more concerned about your legal bills and/or a guilty conviction than the cost of your gun.

Is it not possible that a weapon could be held by the authorities long after a case is officially cleared?

[JV_]

Is it not possible that a weapon could be held by the authorities long after a case is officially cleared?Anything is possible. My gun count is > 1, once the case is closed and I'm clear, I'll just use something else if I have to.

[ToddG]

Anything is possible. My gun count is > 1, once the case is closed and I'm clear, I'll just use something else if I have to.

This.

If I need a gun to save my life or my wife's, the gun is expendable as far as I'm concerned.

[LSP972]

I think that if your gun ends up in the "evidence locker" you'll be far more concerned about your legal bills and/or a guilty conviction than the cost of your gun.

This^; big time.

I can just about guarantee that, if you discharge your firearm in an "official incident"... IOW, one that comes to the attention of "the authorities", as opposed to shooting your TV and not telling anyone... it WILL be seized as evidence. What happens after that depends on the circumstances.

For instance... last year, a college student was jumped outside of his apartment by two thugs, he drew his pistol that he was lawfully carrying concealed, and convinced them that they had urgent business elsewhere via shooting both. The local PD worked the case, seized the pistol, we processed it, and it was returned to him within a month or so. That's about as good as it gets. We have other guns in evidence here that have not been used in a crime per se, but have not been yet released for various reasons... up to and including officials with the wrong attitude.

So, given that your roscoe WILL be seized, and it may be a long time (if ever) before you get it back, if it is something you really don't want to lose... don't carry it or keep it ready as a vehicle/home defense piece.

.

[Mike C]

You have already stated that your life is priceless. Most people tend to carry something that they feel fits their requirements or needs on a personal level based on their experience, or lack there of, and price. For me and my limited experience, my choice is based on: reliability, my ability to shoot accurately, effectively, function the gun under stress, and lastly conceal-ability. Price for me is moot, and in my experience is often relative to quality. All of this for me equals confidence in the weapon in question. Weapon selection should be based on its intended use/role, (right tool for the job). You should switch platforms only if it better meets your needs than your present. I for one am done chasing a better mouse trap.

I know that it sucks to think of having something you spent hard earned money on tossed in the scrap heap or lost forever but in all honesty it will be inconsequential in the aftermath of a defensive shooting. In the off chance you have something happen, unless you are out looking for trouble I am in agreeance with others that you will be happy to be alive, then somewhere after the possible precessing, jail time, bail, investigation, legal proceedings, civil suit, and money pissed away on legal defense 1-2k is a drop in the bucket. Pick your platform based on your needs and ability to accurately and effectively operate your weapon under stress. Not based on cost or others opinions. One last thing, if cost is truly that much of a factor pick what best meets your needs within your budget then train your kitten off.

[GardoneVT]

You have already stated that your life is priceless. Most people tend to carry something that they feel fits their requirements or needs on a personal level based on their experience, or lack there of, and price. For me and my limited experience, my choice is based on: reliability, my ability to shoot accurately, effectively, function the gun under stress, and lastly conceal-ability. Price for me is moot, and in my experience is often relative to quality. All of this for me equals confidence in the weapon in question. Weapon selection should be based on its intended use/role, (right tool for the job). You should switch platforms only if it better meets your needs than your present. I for one am done chasing a better mouse trap.

I know that it sucks to think of having something you spent hard earned money on tossed in the scrap heap or lost forever but in all honesty it will be inconsequential in the aftermath of a defensive shooting. In the off chance you have something happen, unless you are out looking for trouble I am in agreeance with others that you will be happy to be alive, then somewhere after the possible precessing, jail time, bail, investigation, legal proceedings, civil suit, and money pissed away on legal defense 1-2k is a drop in the bucket. Pick your platform based on your needs and ability to accurately and effectively operate your weapon under stress. Not based on cost or others opinions. One last thing, if cost is truly that much of a factor pick what best meets your needs within your budget then train your kitten off.

Fair enough.

So we can file this under " irrelevancies" then. I suppose if a gun hypothetically costs $50,000 and it saves my life once, it's a worthy sacrifice.

[KeeFus]

I was once sued for $20 million...in 1997...seriously. Won on summary judgement but $50,000.00 was nothing in comparison.

[ToddG]

I suppose if a gun hypothetically costs $50,000 and it saves my life once, it's a worthy sacrifice.

Exactly.

[rob_s]

When asking about inexpensove protective gear many motorcyclists often get the response of "how much is your head worth"?

If I felt like I needed a $2k custom pistol to properly defend myself and family, the possibility of losing it to the man would fall under a similar heading.

[TR675]

When asking about inexpensove protective gear many motorcyclists often get the response of "how much is your head worth"?

If I felt like I needed a $2k custom pistol to properly defend myself and family, the possibility of losing it to the man would fall under a similar heading.

Funny thing about that, though - for both guns and bikes - is that the most expensive gear isn't necessarily better at protecting you.

An Arai helmet can cost $500-700. It ain't necessarily better at protecting your brain than a $150 Scorpion.

An M&P9c costs $400-500. It ain't necessarily worse at being a CCW than a $2,000+ custom anything.

Everything has its place. I'd rather wear the Arai if I'm sliding on my head at 100+ mph on a track day. I'd rather wear a plain jane Scorpion DOT helmet if I'm doing a header into a car windshield. Ultimately I'd really rather not do either of those things, but...

[45dotACP]

When asking about inexpensove protective gear many motorcyclists often get the response of "how much is your head worth"?

If I felt like I needed a $2k custom pistol to properly defend myself and family, the possibility of losing it to the man would fall under a similar heading.

True story. That said, I feel like my life is worth enough to buy a pistol regardless of cost (and of a reliable vintage) and spend the money getting to a skill level that is appropriate to defend my life with. I'm certainly a proponent of the 1911 and custom guns, but I think I'm starting to see what all those "non 1911" types are getting at.

If I can pass a specific level of skill (like say a 5.5 second FAST) with a stock Glock 22, but I can do even better (like say a 4.5 second FAST) with a Yost 1911, I'm probably more likely to carry the stock Glock just for the reason alone that I'm pretty good with the Glock and losing a gun that a 1911 fanboy like me would consider priceless would hurt a little more.

I'd still carry it and practice with it, but it would probably be a gun I'd carry if I had another gun confiscated.

[ford.304]

Funny thing about that, though - for both guns and bikes - is that the most expensive gear isn't necessarily better at protecting you.

An Arai helmet can cost $500-700. It ain't necessarily better at protecting your brain than a $150 Scorpion.

An M&P9c costs $400-500. It ain't necessarily worse at being a CCW than a $2,000+ custom anything.

Everything has its place. I'd rather wear the Arai if I'm sliding on my head at 100+ mph on a track day. I'd rather wear a plain jane Scorpion DOT helmet if I'm doing a header into a car windshield. Ultimately I'd really rather not do either of those things, but...


Of course, you're going to be carrying and practicing with that gun every day or week of the year, and only using it in a way that'll get it taken away maybe once. The difference comes in almost entirely in user experience, not efficacy.

[GardoneVT]

True story. That said, I feel like my life is worth enough to buy a pistol regardless of cost (and of a reliable vintage) and spend the money getting to a skill level that is appropriate to defend my life with. I'm certainly a proponent of the 1911 and custom guns, but I think I'm starting to see what all those "non 1911" types are getting at.

If I can pass a specific level of skill (like say a 5.5 second FAST) with a stock Glock 22, but I can do even better (like say a 4.5 second FAST) with a Yost 1911, I'm probably more likely to carry the stock Glock just for the reason alone that I'm pretty good with the Glock and losing a gun that a 1911 fanboy like me would consider priceless would hurt a little more.

I'd still carry it and practice with it, but it would probably be a gun I'd carry if I had another gun confiscated.

To extend Todd's point somewhat, let's quantify what "expensive" actually means.

Let's set the price of a custom 1911 at $5000 . For a gun, that's a lot of money. But I know students here who blow that much on MacBook laptops. In twenty years, that laptop will be landfill fodder.The 1911 will remain a duty capable firearm assuming proper maintenance indefinitely,and could even be passed on to the kids. Try that with a computer sometime.

Further- we drive cars everyday which are many times more expensive then a retail firearm. If I get tboned by a drunk at 2am and walk away from the collision, I won't be wailing about my poor departed car.If a $30,000 automobile is a worthy sacrifice for the safety of the occupants, so is a firearm - regardless of the cost.

[TR675]

Of course, you're going to be carrying and practicing with that gun every day or week of the year, and only using it in a way that'll get it taken away maybe once. The difference comes in almost entirely in user experience, not efficacy.

The confiscation part isn't something I worry too much about, and if your user experience is enhanced with a custom 1911 over the plastic fantastic, by all means go for it. If I had enough (any?) time behind a nice custom pistol I might feel the same. I just think that for the average user the cheaper no-frills plastic gun (or mass-produced DOT-approved helmet) is for all practical purposes at least as good as the custom masterpiece (or handmade SNELL-approved headgear), if they're using it to protect life and limb.

I generally subscribe to the "just have one" school of thought on pistol carryin' and helmet wearin' and won't criticize anybody's choice regarding either. With reasonable exceptions, to include half-helmets and Hi-points.

[ford.304]

The confiscation part isn't something I worry too much about, and if your user experience is enhanced with a custom 1911 over the plastic fantastic, by all means go for it. If I had enough (any?) time behind a nice custom pistol I might feel the same. I just think that for the average user the cheaper no-frills plastic gun (or mass-produced DOT-approved helmet) is for all practical purposes at least as good as the custom masterpiece (or handmade SNELL-approved headgear), if they're using it to protect life and limb.

I generally subscribe to the "just have one" school of thought on pistol carryin' and helmet wearin' and won't criticize anybody's choice regarding either. With reasonable exceptions, to include half-helmets and Hi-points.

I think we're completely in agreement.

[Jaywalker]

I'm sympathetic to the original argument. I sold a SIG P210 in 1981 because I couldn't stand the idea of it ending up in an evidence locker and rusting. I replaced it with a Browning HP that, ironically, I now think is too pretty to carry for the same reason. I wonder if Glock will ever become "too good to carry." Maybe if you can't buy them anymore...

[Dave J]

If cost is an issue, I'm not convinced that your carry gun and backup/training gun need to be exactly identical, as long as they have the same manual of arms, and reasonably similar triggers.

If Todd loses his one-of-a-kind BLR P229 into the evidence locker, and has to carry a stock P229, or any other TDA SIG, out the door the next day, I think he'll be OK. Likewise, the $5000 custom 1911 could be backed up by an $800 Springer RO or S&W E-Series, as long as you have some defensive ammo that the gun is happy with.

What I wouldn't want is to be in a situation where I lose my only SIG into evidence, then have to go out the door the next morning with something radically different, like a 1911, before I've had the chance to put the dry fire and range time in to making the switch. (hypothetical example, as I'm currently using glocks, but you get the idea)

I don't know of a cheap alternative for an HK though. :) I doubt it'd be a huge problem going from, say, a P30 to a P2000 or USP with the same trigger type, but stocking different mags and holsters could eat up most of the cost savings that an LE-trade USP might provide compared to a second P30 (assuming that's what the OP was considering switching to).

Just my opinion, which is probably worth about what you paid for it.

[TCinVA]

Is it not possible that a weapon could be held by the authorities long after a case is officially cleared?

It depends on the circumstances of the case.

I don't know what "officially cleared" means. Generally speaking it can take 6 months to a year for a typical case to go from formal charges all the way through to some sort of adjudication, and during that time your gun is going to be evidence. Even after said adjudication the gun can be relevant for appeals, which can tie it up for years.

At a bare minimum, expect a firearm you use in self defense to go away for at least a few months.

I've had stolen property that was tied up in court proceedings for over half a decade, but largely because it was the central piece of evidence against a guy facing serious time for it because he was caught dead to rights and already had a rap sheet a mile long.

[rob_s]

Funny thing about that, though - for both guns and bikes - is that the most expensive gear isn't necessarily better at protecting you.

An Arai helmet can cost $500-700. It ain't necessarily better at protecting your brain than a $150 Scorpion.

An M&P9c costs $400-500. It ain't necessarily worse at being a CCW than a $2,000+ custom anything.

Everything has its place. I'd rather wear the Arai if I'm sliding on my head at 100+ mph on a track day. I'd rather wear a plain jane Scorpion DOT helmet if I'm doing a header into a car windshield. Ultimately I'd really rather not do either of those things, but...

Note that I said "if I felt like". I'm the guy that carries a Leatherman skeletool every day and rarely a 38 snubbie when I can be bothered, so I clearly understand the difference.

There are so many parallels between the motorcycle crowd and the gun crowd it's silly. Basically two equally delusional groups.

[TR675]

No worries, I noticed. I think the two crowds' delusions are pretty common across the board for enthusiast groups of any stripe.

[Beat Trash]

A lot of things are dependent on the jurisdiction, and the case load within that jurisdiction. This is assuming that there isn't anything "News Worthy" about your incident.

My agency issues us an M&P9. If I get involved in an OIS, they will issue me a temporary replacement M&P9 until I get my gun back. Usually running about 10-12 months to get your back. On a rare occasion, the officer will have been involved in another OIS, but with the "loaner" gun.

As a civilian CCW, I feel it is important to pick a platform that you can afford to buy more than one gun for. Dr. Gary Roberts is fond of saying that a person should buy three of the same type of gun. Test and vet all three. Carry one, train with the second, and put the third up. He has a valid point. After being involved in an incident, you will have enough other things going on in your life than trying to train with an unfamiliar handgun. But depending on the facts of your incident, the person you shot may have family and/or friends who have issue with the decision making process that led you to shoot their friend/associate/family member. They may feel obligated to attempt to do bad things to you. Now would be a bad time to have no gun, or a gun you are not familiar with. The holsters and ammunition you have for your primary gun will still work for your new carry gun. And they will work the same.

[Nephrology]

I know it's been said anyway but financial transactions typically associated with life and death usually are not cheap. The cost of a pistol is basically negligible in this context.

The bike helmet is a good example. If you really eat pavement on a motorcycle to the point that the helmet will actually be used to (maybe) save your life, odds are good the absolute last thing in the world you will be worrying about is the cost of the helmet. The hospital bills are pretty much guaranteed to outstrip that in your first 60 seconds in the ED.

[Tamara]

Carrying $1k+ 1911s for many years, I heard this a lot. I still don't get it.

I will say that it's a good argument for not getting too emotionally invested in your carry gat, regardless of the price tag. At the end of the day, no matter how much it cost or how much loving care went into it, it's just a gun and can be replaced, unlike the person carrying it.

[JAD]

I will say that it's a good argument for not getting too emotionally invested in your carry gat

Ding. I have lots of nice pistols and I carry pretty much all of them. However, if I lost one for even a remotely good cause, it just wouldn't be that big a deal.

On the other hand, I have started using a Glock specifically for travel by air. The chances of losing a gun to the gauntlet of thieves my luggage runs seem high, and losing the SuperCommander or Curiosity to /that/ would make me mad.

[Tamara]

On the other hand, I have started using a Glock specifically for travel by air. The chances of losing a gun to the gauntlet of thieves my luggage runs seem high, and losing the SuperCommander or Curiosity to /that/ would make me mad.

I carried my 19 on a trip to New Hamster for just that reason once. It's also eminently disposable if, for some reason, the flight gets diverted to Logan or JFK or somewhere else behind enemy lines.

[JAD]

It is the traveller's equivalent of a throw down gun. See? I found a good thing to say about Glocks!

[Jaywalker]

I keep hearing that guns are just money and not to worry about them - I don't buy it. If we didn't like guns more than money we wouldn't have so many of them.

[JV_]

Guns are not money, but most are easily replaced.

[GardoneVT]

I keep hearing that guns are just money and not to worry about them - I don't buy it. If we didn't like guns more than money we wouldn't have so many of them.

My smartphone costs more then my carry Beretta .I like my piece, but an irreplaceable asset it is NOT.

[45dotACP]

It is the traveller's equivalent of a throw down gun. See? I found a good thing to say about Glocks!

Why not just carry a Glock 7? It's ceramic and you could get it past a metal detector. Although they do cost more than you make in a year :cool:

[Tamara]

I keep hearing that guns are just money and not to worry about them - I don't buy it. If we didn't like guns more than money we wouldn't have so many of them.

Some guns are nicer than others, but I'm really attached to very few of them. Probably a side effect of my line of work for those years.

(On the other hand, if I was skeered to sell 'em, I couldn't have owned so many, so there's that upside.)

[SGT_Calle]

Why not just carry a Glock 7? It's ceramic and you could get it past a metal detector. Although they do cost more than you make in a year :cool:

*presses imaginary like button*
I almost spat coffee on my iPad. Funny every single time.

[JAD]

Why not just carry a Glock 7? It's ceramic and you could get it past a metal detector. Although they do cost more than you make in a year :cool:

It's a meerschaum revolver, made in Ireland.

[Lester Polfus]

There are many reasons why I quit carrying custom 1911's and started carrying Glocks, but this isn't one of them.

I've had the pleasure of attending a gun school where one of the instructors was a County DA for many years, then became a defense attorney. One of the first things I asked him for was a business card. Then I asked questions about the cost of a legal defense.

His estimate for a competent legal defense in an "uncomplicated" even, to get you to the point where a grand jury comes back with "no true bill" was $15K to $30K. When you are talking numbers like that, the line item for "gun" isn't that significant, whether it is a custom 1911 or a ratty old Glock.

When I asked about how much a trial, with things like independent forensics examiners and dueling expert witnesses, might cost, the answer was "As much money as you have, and if you don't start out with at least a half million, you should probably just take a plea deal."

Again, if I'm sitting there considering whether to 1) roll the dice on a jury trial, where the BEST outcome is I will be penniless at the end or 2) Take a plea to some kind of charge where I might do a two or three year stretch, and get out before my kids forget what I look like and my wife has to sell the house, the gun is gonna be the last thing on my mind.

That's before we talk about civil stuff.

[Corlissimo]

There are many reasons why I quit carrying custom 1911's and started carrying Glocks, but this isn't one of them.

I've had the pleasure of attending a gun school where one of the instructors was a County DA for many years, then became a defense attorney. One of the first things I asked him for was a business card. Then I asked questions about the cost of a legal defense.

His estimate for a competent legal defense in an "uncomplicated" even, to get you to the point where a grand jury comes back with "no true bill" was $15K to $30K. When you are talking numbers like that, the line item for "gun" isn't that significant, whether it is a custom 1911 or a ratty old Glock.

When I asked about how much a trial, with things like independent forensics examiners and dueling expert witnesses, might cost, the answer was "As much money as you have, and if you don't start out with at least a half million, you should probably just take a plea deal."

Again, if I'm sitting there considering whether to 1) roll the dice on a jury trial, where the BEST outcome is I will be penniless at the end or 2) Take a plea to some kind of charge where I might do a two or three year stretch, and get out before my kids forget what I look like and my wife has to sell the house, the gun is gonna be the last thing on my mind.

That's before we talk about civil stuff.

Okay. Now I'm officially depressed. I think I'm gonna stop carrying and just let whoever shoot me from here on out. :(

[Tamara]

Okay. Now I'm officially depressed. I think I'm gonna stop carrying and just let whoever shoot me from here on out. :(

Hospital bills are pretty atrocious these days, too, so you gotta hope he's carrying enough gun and is a decent shot, which is unlikely, so we're back to shooting back...

[KevinB]

Several states have laws that stop civil suits if your not criminal charged.

To me (not yet being the subject of a use of force lawsuit), I'm not concerned as to a lawsuit in a good shooting.

[ST911]

Losing a gun to an evidence locker post-shoot is the least of your worries. Given the incredible unlikelihood of an event likely to result in seizure and charging, I'd not even factor it into a buying or carrying decision. At the end of the day, even a $2k-5k custom gun is a pretty small sum.

Evidence lockers aren't immune to claims for failures to protect valuables that result in depreciation. If your expensive blaster rusted shut in a locker, seek damages. The days of shelving and forgetting without consequence are gone.

[KevH]

People seem to get really wrapped around the axle on this topic.

In the case of LE, my own department (and the ones around us) usually have the gun back to the owner in less than a week. It gets a detailed armory inspection and a few rounds test fired with the brass and projectiles collected and then get's given back.

If it's a citizen's gun in a shooing it usually gets held until the DA decides whether or not to file or the case is adjudicated. Best case that's a week or two worst case a couple years.

The reality is you will eventually get it back and even if you don't who cares? The value of the gun is meaningless compared to the fact it saved your life or the life of someone else.

[tomrkba]

The county I live in will not return the gun, even if ordered by a judge. The gun I carry is merely a minor $600 expense compared to attorney fees. Therefore, I carry a gun that has no sentimental value and is easily replaceable. I will be irritated that they're stealing my property, but my focus will be upon the legal defense and getting through the after-incident effects. The practical reality sucks, but I cannot change their corrupt behavior.

[LHS]

I carried my 19 on a trip to New Hamster for just that reason once. It's also eminently disposable if, for some reason, the flight gets diverted to Logan or JFK or somewhere else behind enemy lines.

The one and only time I carried a Glock, that was the reason. It was even New Hampshire, too. Go figure.

Now I have a cheap 92F that I carry when I travel out of state and need a familiar blaster.

[KevinB]

The county I live in will not return the gun, even if ordered by a judge. The gun I carry is merely a minor $600 expense compared to attorney fees. Therefore, I carry a gun that has no sentimental value and is easily replaceable. I will be irritated that they're stealing my property, but my focus will be upon the legal defense and getting through the after-incident effects. The practical reality sucks, but I cannot change their corrupt behavior.

Sue the county -> contempt of court, theft etc.

[JohnK]

Sue the county -> contempt of court, theft etc.

I would take that case.

[tomrkba]

Sue the county -> contempt of court, theft etc.

Of course, but it is only a $600 gun. It is something I would have the attorney file if the cost were reasonable. But, I doubt I would get it back even after all that. My info is old and I should bring it up with the pertinent people.

[BLR]

Of course, but it is only a $600 gun. It is something I would have the attorney file if the cost were reasonable. But, I doubt I would get it back even after all that. My info is old and I should bring it up with the pertinent people.

You know, this is just another example of why I like where I am so much. Wilmington, Xenia, Clinton County, and Greene County are full of first rate coppers.

tomrkba, sounds like you don't have that advantage. If it were me, I'd make an example out of them.

[GJM]

Bill, here is a free marketing idea -- develop a special coating that will keep a pistol "rust free and in top operating condition" while sitting without care in an evidence locker for up to six years. You can have a policy, that if there is any rust, you will re-coat for free and throw in a trigger job.

[KevinB]

Bill, here is a free marketing idea -- develop a special coating that will keep a pistol "rust free and in top operating condition" while sitting without care in an evidence locker for up to six years. You can have a policy, that if there is any rust, you will re-coat for free and throw in a trigger job.

All well and good till some ass decides to tumble it in a paint shaker with some gravel...

[ST911]

Bill, here is a free marketing idea -- develop a special coating that will keep a pistol "rust free and in top operating condition" while sitting without care in an evidence locker for up to six years. You can have a policy, that if there is any rust, you will re-coat for free and throw in a trigger job.

I think that's called Tenifer, seen on a G22 discovered in a forgotten evidence locker in the Denver metro area. It wasn't quite 6 years, but close.

[Moonshot]

Interesting thread. I have a related question...

Lets say you take Doc's advise and buy three identical guns - one for training, one for carry and one to keep as a spare. You are on your way home from the range and you end up needing to use your carry gun to defend yourself. Will the police not take into evidence both your training gun and your carry gun? They will both have been shot recently. No way for the police to know with certainty which one was used for the self-defense shooting.

What if the defensive shoot occurs in the home? Even if only one of the three shows signs of having been recently used, would the police not take all three into evidence? How do they know with certainty which one was used? For that matter, would they not take all guns into evidence? Perhaps you've got a recently shot 9mm and empty brass strewn about, but you also have a .38 wheel gun. I'm guessing most cops can't look at a body and tell if the holes were caused by a 9mm or a .38.

I understand you may not mention that you have other guns stashed about the house, but would the police not search? They may not pull up the floor boards, but I expect a gun safe will catch their attention.

I guess my question is if one is going to keep a spare gun for use in case their carry gun is taken into evidence, it might be best to keep it somewhere else. Does this make sense?

[Casual Friday]

Does this make sense?

No, not to me anyway.

[Al T.]

one to keep as a spare

Buddy's house. ;)

[BigT]

I think a spare carry able pistol kept off site makes great sense. I've hear here of guys having everything at the house taken for ballistics after a shooting. And here buying and licensing another gun will take months.

So something stored safely and legally off site at least gives more piece of mind.

[LSP552]

Moonshot,

Everything depends on the totality of the circumstances. This is really why you need to have a BRIEF discussion with the responding officers. Something as simple as I shot the home invader with my nightstand pistol because I was in fear for my life and my family's lives. You need to get on record the basic facts that you shot due to being in fear of your life. Under these circumstances, it would made no sense for the investigating officer to seize every gun ilocked n your safe.

I don't have any problem setting out the basic facts of I shot him with this gun because he put my life in danger by kicking in my door at 2:00AM. Beyond this, talking to a lawyer is a great idea before you give a DETAILED statement. Your brain needs to slow down a bit first. In fact, you probable need to ask the police to call you an ambulance because you are having chest pains. That buys you time, and could be a normal stress response or heart attack so no one can every say you didn't.

To the original question, bottom line is don't get emotionally attached to your guns. I have a very nice old Colt New Frontier SA in .44 Spl with elephant teeth stocks. I don't carry it concealed but it does ride to the range on occasion, and to the woods. I'd plink a car jacker in a heartbeat with a 240 gr. hard cast without a 2nd thought to loosing the gun if it was the quickest to put into action. Everything is secondary to saving your life.

Ken

[GardoneVT]

Interesting thread. I have a related question...

Lets say you take Doc's advise and buy three identical guns - one for training, one for carry and one to keep as a spare. You are on your way home from the range and you end up needing to use your carry gun to defend yourself. Will the police not take into evidence both your training gun and your carry gun? They will both have been shot recently. No way for the police to know with certainty which one was used for the self-defense shooting.

What if the defensive shoot occurs in the home? Even if only one of the three shows signs of having been recently used, would the police not take all three into evidence? How do they know with certainty which one was used? For that matter, would they not take all guns into evidence? Perhaps you've got a recently shot 9mm and empty brass strewn about, but you also have a .38 wheel gun. I'm guessing most cops can't look at a body and tell if the holes were caused by a 9mm or a .38.

I understand you may not mention that you have other guns stashed about the house, but would the police not search? They may not pull up the floor boards, but I expect a gun safe will catch their attention.

I guess my question is if one is going to keep a spare gun for use in case their carry gun is taken into evidence, it might be best to keep it somewhere else. Does this make sense?

So what if you do.I'd imagine any ownership permits or CCW licenses you hold will be suspended pending the outcome of the investigation, during which time you won't be legally allowed to carry -or in some states, even OWN a gun. New York comes to mind , as does IL via the FOID card.

Even if the cops do take every gun you own-.I'd rather be alive and gun-less, then to have missed the bad guy and been injured or killed because the gun I like the most sat in the safe when I carried a piece I was less familiar with.

I disagree in one respect with the "no emotional attachment" part ; a gun you like is one you'll be motivated to train with . If shooting a pistol or dry firing it is something you have to force yourself to do, it won't be as relevant as a gun you can't wait to practice with. Just realize in a shooting, the loss of the gun is a worthy sacrifice to preserve your life.

I emotionally like and am attached to my car. But if I get hit by a drunk driver and I walk away alive and intact but with a totalled car,I won't shed a single tear. I'll be too grateful being alive to care.

[DocGKR]

Just like Nyeti has done in the past, LSP552 is giving some good advice here. Giving a brief and concise statement to the police about what happened is prudent. As an example, there is NO reason responding LE officers would need to seize firearms locked in a safe in the basement or garage, if a citizen needed to use lethal force to defend themselves against a felon attacking them in their bedroom.

[BLR]

Interesting thread. I have a related question...

Lets say you take Doc's advise and buy three identical guns - one for training, one for carry and one to keep as a spare. You are on your way home from the range and you end up needing to use your carry gun to defend yourself. Will the police not take into evidence both your training gun and your carry gun? They will both have been shot recently. No way for the police to know with certainty which one was used for the self-defense shooting.

What if the defensive shoot occurs in the home? Even if only one of the three shows signs of having been recently used, would the police not take all three into evidence? How do they know with certainty which one was used? For that matter, would they not take all guns into evidence? Perhaps you've got a recently shot 9mm and empty brass strewn about, but you also have a .38 wheel gun. I'm guessing most cops can't look at a body and tell if the holes were caused by a 9mm or a .38.

I understand you may not mention that you have other guns stashed about the house, but would the police not search? They may not pull up the floor boards, but I expect a gun safe will catch their attention.

I guess my question is if one is going to keep a spare gun for use in case their carry gun is taken into evidence, it might be best to keep it somewhere else. Does this make sense?

Unless you have a Parker Invincible, I'd not spend my time worrying about the guns in my house.

[BigT]

Just like Nyeti has done in the past, LSP552 is giving some good advice here. Giving a brief and concise statement to the police about what happened is prudent. As an example, there is NO reason responding LE officers would need to seize firearms locked in a safe in the basement or garage, if a citizen needed to use lethal force to defend themselves against a felon attacking them in their bedroom.

Theres no reason to do it. But I've met policemen here who think it's perfectly logical nonetheless. I would not be surprised if there are policemen there who share that sentiment. The argument I got is that they can't be sure of your actions until they arrived on scene.

[DocGKR]

Let's see--I have a smoking gun in my hand or nearby with cartridge cases on the floor that match said weapon and the remaining ammunition in said weapon. If an LE officer cannot figure that out, they have no business being in LE. There might be occasions to seize more weapons during the course of an investigation, but a self-defense shooting is not one of them...

[GardoneVT]

Let's see--I have a smoking gun in my hand or nearby with cartridge cases on the floor that match said weapon and the remaining ammunition in said weapon. If an LE officer cannot figure that out, they have no business being in LE. There might be occasions to seize more weapons during the course of an investigation, but a self-defense shooting is not one of them...

Unless the casings get stuck or lost. I read of a case where the detectives seized a citizens guns for testing because his statement at the scene was three shots fired, but the evidence techs only recovered two shell casings .The prevailing impression was a missing gun somewhere in the story.

Once the tests came back negative for ballistics, both homeowner and the detectives scoured the scene for the missing casing, but to no avail. Weeks later they check the pajama pants he wore that night.....and found the third casing in the rolled up cuffs .

[BigT]

Not all LE officers are on side. The fact is that it's happened here. And I'm sure it could happen there. Probably has already.

[KeeFus]

In fact, you probable need to ask the police to call you an ambulance because you are having chest pains. That buys you time, and could be a normal stress response or heart attack so no one can every say you didn't.



One of our firearms instructors said this very thing not long ago. When I asked him why he had no good reason other than he just didn't want to talk to investigators immediately after shooting someone. He's never shot anyone so he was speaking hypothetically of course...:rolleyes: Why feign illness? Why not just tell the investigator that you would rather not talk at that moment? That's what I have done and it seemed to work well for me.

Otherwise I agree with you.

Sorry for the drift.

[DocGKR]

"I read of a case where the detectives seized a citizens guns for testing because his statement at the scene was three shots fired, but the evidence techs only recovered two shell casings .The prevailing impression was a missing gun somewhere in the story."

That does not make sense. Investigate a few incidents. The first thing I am thinking is a lost/missing shell casing, not another gun if all the other physical evidence (number of holes, remaining rounds in weapon, etc...) match the facts of the case. Shell casings get displaced all the time--the stick to the boots of paramedics, get kicked in the scuffle, etc...

[Symmetry]

Shell casings get displaced all the time--the stick to the boots of paramedics, get kicked in the scuffle, etc...

Yep. Worked a case recently where shell casings got moved from the area where the shooting took place, to the spot where the guy fell dead after running 25yrds away. At first we thought the shooter followed him to the spot where he fell and executed him. Turned out the shells were moved by EMT boot treads.

To the OP, you never know what the disposition of your weapon could be after a shooting. So, it would be better to have your $600 Remington 870 in lockup rather than your $30,000 class III MP5.

[Chuck Haggard]

I have seen a bunch of brass moved around in the treads of fire trucks or ambulances. It happens, often.

[LSP552]

One of our firearms instructors said this very thing not long ago. When I asked him why he had no good reason other than he just didn't want to talk to investigators immediately after shooting someone. He's never shot anyone so he was speaking hypothetically of course...:rolleyes: Why feign illness? Why not just tell the investigator that you would rather not talk at that moment? That's what I have done and it seemed to work well for me.

Otherwise I agree with you.

Sorry for the drift.

KeeFus,

My comment about getting checked out at the hospital was really directed more for the non-law enforcement shooter. Sorry, I didn't made that clear. I think it's a good way to hold off detailed questioning until later without appearing uncooperative with the investigators. This may be more useful in some areas than others. Down here we expect home invaders and car jackers to get shot. Elsewhere, maybe not so much.

I also think it helps paint a picture of the shooter that will be a bit better than someone standing around saying I shot that asshole. People in stressful situations often say things that can be misunderstood or taken out of context. Getting away from the scene may reduce the impulse to talk. I'm thinking civilly as well as criminally. Also, using deadly force is pretty stressful, even for the trained. Getting checked out can't be a bad thing.

I'm been both a shooter and investigator but it's still just one man's opinion. Heck, I was back in the Narcotics squad room the next day. That's not the image I'd want to paint today. As an old retired guy, I'm probably going to feel chest pains if I plink a burglar in my home tonight.

Ken

[Lester Polfus]

And as an aside, it's a good idea to at least be checked out by EMT's and such at the scene, as you may have some boo boo's you missed in the midst of all the excitement.

This saves you for example, from coming homer from graveyard shift, taking off your dark blue uniform pants, which hides a surprising amount of blood really well, and finding pieces of bullet jacket and aluminum window frame sticking out of your leg, where you thought you had merely been pricked by the thorn bushes...

This avoids 1) chain of custody issues with the evidence and 2) being checked for injuries every night by your sergeant before you go home.

[Rex G]

When I fired my personally-owned duty GP100 in 1993, it was collected for testing purposes. I carried my Colt Python, which fit my duty holster, for the few weeks my Ruger was being kept for testing. I was not asked to surrender any secondary/back-up guns for testing, though a subsequent policy change now mandates that all weapons present at the scene of an officer-involved shooting will be collected for testing. As this does, it seems, include any spare/secondary pistols I may have in the patrol car, this means I need to have at least one carry weapon in secure storage elsewhere.

Until recently, largely due to this policy, I had three .40 DAK SIG P229 pistols, all function-tested and on my "qual card." Then, in 2012, in anticipation of a policy change that would allow me to carry 9mm duty pistols, I sold all but my first SIG. (Age and recoil have not been kind to my right wrist.) The proposed policy change did not take effect, so I am still carrying the SiG at work, but I now have a G17, and a pair of G19 Glocks.

The ideal is to use one weapon system for duty and carry, but sometimes life is not ideal. Fortunately, shooting mostly Glocks does not seem to harm my performance with the DAK SIG. Grip angle, shmip angle, they point the same in my hands, and the principles of trigger control are the same. To hedge my bets, however, I do bring the G17 to work with me, and it rides up front, so I can elect to selectively grab it, leaving the SIG holstered, if the situation allows. (My PD rules do not prohibit using a "back-up" pistol selectively, if the weapon has been fired on the off-duty/back-up qual course.)

In my last all-1911 period, 1997-2002, I carried one Kimber on duty, and also used it for carry, used another Kimber for training, and had a nice, Royal-Blued Colt for carry I felt like it. All three of these were on my "qual card" as primary duty pistols. I later added a Les Baer TRS to the ensemble, and it became my usual off-the-clock carry gun.

[ST911]

Until recently, largely due to this policy, I had three .40 DAK SIG P229 pistols, all function-tested and on my "qual card."

Slide sidetrack... Do you have to maintain a qual and record for each of those 229s, or are you good for the model/config rather than the individual serial frame? I see both practices. For some, a 229 is a 229. For others, a different 229 than the last one shot for record would be something completely different.

[Rex G]

Slide sidetrack... Do you have to maintain a qual and record for each of those 229s, or are you good for the model/config rather than the individual serial frame? I see both practices. For some, a 229 is a 229. For others, a different 229 than the last one shot for record would be something completely different.

My employer requires a qual with each individual weapon, by serial number, during my birth month. With a month-long window of time, to shoot each weapon, and the range running three shifts, five days a week, it is not overly burdensome to get it done. Any weapon not renewed by the end of the month expires, though I can renew an expired weapon at any time, and then resume carrying it.

My employer considers off-the-clock defensive shootings to be line-of-duty, so any handgun I carry beyond the property lines of my residence, and plan to use defensively, should be on the qual list. It is generally understood that we may grab a "weapon of opportunity" at home.

[KeeFus]

To be covered by LEOSA, shouldn't we LEO's all qualify with weapons that we carry off-duty? That's the way it has been explained to us...and why it takes me and a few others a few relays on the range to qualify each year. Policy will not allow us to carry anything other than an issued weapon at work. We are not held to that standard off-duty and I generally do not carry my duty weapon away from work...but I do qualify with others so that LEOSA will apply.

I don't mind losing weapons I carry off duty to the evidence room, which 99% of the time a M&P 9fs...I have another one almost identical to it, sans night sights.

[Symmetry]

To be covered by LEOSA, shouldn't we LEO's all qualify with weapons that we carry off-duty? That's the way it has been explained to us...and why it takes me and a few others a few relays on the range to qualify each year. Policy will not allow us to carry anything other than an issued weapon at work. We are not held to that standard off-duty and I generally do not carry my duty weapon away from work...but I do qualify with others so that LEOSA will apply.

I don't mind losing weapons I carry off duty to the evidence room, which 99% of the time a M&P 9fs...I have another one almost identical to it, sans night sights.

My agency's policy dictates that the weapon must be approved and qualified on with the off duty holster......with approved ammo. From my perspective it is by no means worth the risk to jeopardize your agency's backing when the shit hits the fan and every one who can make a buck from a lawsuit comes out of the woodwork. I speak from experience when it comes to this.

[Chuck Haggard]

Here you have to qualify with your issued pistol, and carbine if you have one issued.

We have a fairly wide open off-duty policy on both handguns and ammo, and easy to get to quals, so that's not an issue.

By LEOSA, you only have to qualify with the "type" of handgun you are going to carry. That is defined, but many legal minds and experienced trainers I have spoken to think this means qual with revolver=carry revolver, same-same for semi-autos.

[Mr. Goodtimes]

If I ended up turning a couple bottom feeders into compost, the last thing I would worry about is losing my pistol. The only thing that can't be replaced is my life and the life of my loved ones. The weapon, no matter what the intrinsic value, is a tool. That's it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FotoTomas]

Covering the bases of the several concepts discussed over the original and preceding posts ...
As Gardone mentioned in the OP and aptly articulated by many others here...A pistol is a minor point in the financial equation of a shooting incident. The sacrifice of a simple Glock or high end custom wonder blaster is well worth the cost if your life was in the balance.

On the job I am issued a specific pistol and am required to use that pistol only for duty. If a duty gun is used in an on duty shooting it is taken for evidence and a duplicate duty gun is issued. Does not matter when the original duty gun comes back because they simply qualify you on the new gun and it becomes the official issued piece.

Off duty carry is covered by policy in that the agency recognizes the LEOSA applies to us and we have their blessing to pack a gat off duty and show our LE credentials if necessary. On the other hand my jurisdiction is limited and the agency refuses to accept any responsibility for the carrying of arms on our own time. In addition I am prohibited from using the government gun for off duty carry. Not only that I am prohibited from taking any "official on duty time" training with personal weapons or allowed to qualify with personal weapons through the agency. The Liability sharks in Washington have so said. Thus the no duty guns on personal time and no personal guns allowed on duty/training time or off duty qualifications allowed policy.

For this reason I often carry a duplicate of the current duty pistol (SIG 229) or past duty pistol (Beretta 92D) as my off duty choice because I have an official training history with these weapons that is relevant. In addition I as a matter of routine have several other pistols about the house I like and carry off duty. All do have a DAO lock work or are used in DAO mode. These are strictly off duty and competition guns. None of the off duty weapons are overly expensive or custom pieces. Mostly out of the box examples of used quality handguns with little to no emotional ties to the individual pieces.

I do qualify with them on my own time at a neighboring agency but those are "unofficial" quals. I hope the need never arises but I really am not that concerned with what might end up in a evidence locker. In fact I have a Beretta 92D sitting in one right now. Stolen from me some months ago and recovered by the local S.O. Still waiting on all the bureaucratic bull malarkey to get it processed through the FDLE crime lab, S.O.’s crime lab, S.O.'s property room and into the OPD property room to the OPD crime lab and then to get back to me. Might be another week to 90 days. I am told it was run over before recovery and is a rusted mess. We will see soon I hope.

As for choice and variety, we have had several discussions in the past about one gun or several when it comes to personal defense training. The infamous "Carry Rotation" threads. I am a believer in options are good as long as the operation is basically similar and training with some of the odd stuff is good as well because you never know what might be at hand when trouble announces itself. My Ruger Blackhawk single action hunting revolver could well be the gun of choice in a limited self-defense situation in the woods. Best to keep up to speed on whatever might be available in lieu of the "one gun".

Of course this extended post is worth every penney you paid for it. :)

[Chuck Haggard]

I attended a LEOSA class at the Tac Conference in Memphis just a few weeks ago, taught by a gun savvy attorney from NJ (obviously has to deal with a mess of gun laws) and who is also a reserve officer on the side.

One of the things I was shocked to learn was that LEOSA does not cover officers when they are off duty and out of state ref the "gun free schools zones" BS. People with valid CCW permits are exempt, but coppers are not.

LEOSA also doesn't require that a specific pistol be shot in a qual, only that the officer has qualified under a COF recognized by their state, or the state they now live in if retired.

What we do for our retired guys is have them shoot the type of gun they will be carrying. Say they have a G17, 19 and 26, they pick one to qual with and call it good (unless they really want to shoot a lot then they can shoot all of them if we have time). If they also have a model 66 and a 36 then we have them qual with one of the wheelguns.

All of the lawyers I have talked to ref LEOSA think that a copper qualifying with a revolver and a similar action type of semi auto would cover a guy with almost all of the guns they might want to carry.

I once qual'd one of our retired guys with a Ruger Vaquero just because he did lots of cowboy shooting and travelled to matches, thus he might actually have to use one of his single actions if things got stupid on a road trip.

[Rich]

Question

I know they take your handgun away.

What about your BUG that wasn't used?

[Chuck Haggard]

Question

I know they take your handgun away.

What about your BUG that wasn't used?


Depends on a number of factors.

[Don Gwinn]

I once qual'd one of our retired guys with a Ruger Vaquero just because he did lots of cowboy shooting and travelled to matches, thus he might actually have to use one of his single actions if things got stupid on a road trip.

Way off topic, an instructor friend was recently told by another instructor friend about an elderly lady who insisted that she wanted to qualify (for Illinois CCL) with a single-action revolver. This she did . . . from the hip. Fanning it. Other friends, active in SASS locally, confirmed for him that she's a well-known SASS competitor.
The qualification is 30 rounds at a B27, no time limit, 10 from 3 yards, 10 from 7 yard, and 10 from 10, with 70% of shots hitting the silhouette. I don't know that it's a good idea to screw around on it, but I know there are people drawing smiley faces and such, too. The state police never see the target, nor do they find out what firearm or ammunition you used, so I suppose it doesn't do a lot of harm, but I figured I'd rather be able to say in court that I qualified with the gun I intended to carry at the time.

Anyway, back to the conversation: I don't have anything terribly valuable money-wise, just a few sentimental pieces. But if it comes to it, the cops can have 'em as long as I walk away. I will someday lose my wife, my children, my life . . . a couple of guns more or less are really no big deal.

[ST911]

One of the things I was shocked to learn was that LEOSA does not cover officers when they are off duty and out of state ref the "gun free schools zones" BS. People with valid CCW permits are exempt, but coppers are not.

For a variety of reasons, I recommend that current and former LEOs maintain their local CCWs (and non-resident UT/FL) rather than relying solely on LE creds.

[KeeFus]

For a variety of reasons, I recommend that current and former LEOs maintain their local CCWs (and non-resident UT/FL) rather than relying solely on LE creds.

Agreed, Ive had mine for about 8 years.

[LSP972]

For a variety of reasons, I recommend that current and former LEOs maintain their local CCWs (and non-resident UT/FL) rather than relying solely on LE creds.

I'd be interested to hear those reasons.

Because its a pretty good bet (unless your state promulgating agency doesn't keep up with its permittees) that anything one does that causes him/her to lose his LE creds (retired or active) will also cause a state-issued concealed carry permit to be revoked.

Not trying to argue with you; I'm genuinely curious.

.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'd be interested to hear those reasons.

Because its a pretty good bet (unless your state promulgating agency doesn't keep up with its permittees) that anything one does that causes him/her to lose his LE creds (retired or active) will also cause a state-issued concealed carry permit to be revoked.

Not trying to argue with you; I'm genuinely curious.

.

Read my post again, you'll note that out of state CCW folks don't have some of the issues that LEOs have to deal with.

A CCW permit would also cover a guy if he gets a Chief that pulls people's ability to carry off-duty on their creds, etc.



Way off topic, an instructor friend was recently told by another instructor friend about an elderly lady who insisted that she wanted to qualify (for Illinois CCL) with a single-action revolver. This she did . . . from the hip. Fanning it. Other friends, active in SASS locally, confirmed for him that she's a well-known SASS competitor.

Our qual starts with three rounds from the holster in three seconds, my guy did the same thing. Everyone else on the line was still trying to clear leather as he fanned off the three shots in like 3/4 of a second.

[Don Gwinn]

That put a smile on my face. :)

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk HD

[ST911]

I'd be interested to hear those reasons.

Because its a pretty good bet (unless your state promulgating agency doesn't keep up with its permittees) that anything one does that causes him/her to lose his LE creds (retired or active) will also cause a state-issued concealed carry permit to be revoked.

Not trying to argue with you; I'm genuinely curious.

.

Disciplinary action, righteous or otherwise, resulting in temporary or indeterminate removal of creds/arming authority.

Discretion, need/want to carry without disclosure of LE status to others.

CCW rules and regs tend to be more definitive and commonly understood than LEOSA.

CCW may circumvent employer restrictions on what/how to carry, or use/display of creds.

[LSP972]

Discretion, need/want to carry without disclosure of LE status to others.

.

Okay, that one I'll buy.

The others are a reflection on agency policies, etc.

Thanks.

.

[sheriffoconee]

I have a different way of looking at it. IF I have to use a firearm to save my life, then it has fulfilled it's intended purpose. Whatever the gun cost me is irrelevant. WHEN I get it back, and I suspect that I will, it will have a special place in our family history of firearms...such as the 1907 made Model 94 38-55 that my family shared to hunt meat with in the wilds of Ontario that I have, or my Model 94 that I took my first deer with. Or my Dad's Model 10 that he used to beat a bank robber in Chattanooga TN in the head so the guy wouldn't choke another FBI agent to death....
It isn't the financial value of the gun that matters to me, it is the intrinsic value of the gun, the history, or the memories....
I was blessed to be raised with a family history that includes firearms...and THAT is what is important to me. I have a variety of guns, and I can go get more, or trade what guns I have....but I can't replace myself, or my son....or that innocent person who may depend on me to make a decision that might save a life. The firearm itself is just the tool....

[Rich]

Depends on a number of factors.

Thanks

[Chuck Whitlock]

For a variety of reasons, I recommend that current and former LEOs maintain their local CCWs (and non-resident UT/FL) rather than relying solely on LE creds.

Depends on where you are at. In Nebraska it doesn't make much sense, but is valid here in Texas.

[md8232]

I carried my 19 on a trip to New Hamster for just that reason once. It's also eminently disposable if, for some reason, the flight gets diverted to Logan or JFK or somewhere else behind enemy lines.

What would be the result for a civilian if the flight does get diverted to an evil place? Loss of weapon? Jail time? Say "I'll never do it again" and walk away smiling?

[Malamute]

I believe whats supposed to happen is you refuse delivery of your checked baggage and insist it be kept in airline possesion until they get you on a flight to free territory.

[GardoneVT]

I believe whats supposed to happen is you refuse delivery of your checked baggage and insist it be kept in airline possesion until they get you on a flight to free territory.

Or, according to the Federal Bench , surrendering the weapon to local LE and accepting whatever disposition they decide. What cannot happen is the owner taking possession in any way, and at any time, in Gunsarebadville.

[Tamara]

I believe whats supposed to happen is you refuse delivery of your checked baggage and insist it be kept in airline possesion until they get you on a flight to free territory.

IANAL ("Worst Apple product evar!") but that's what I'd do.

[Chuck Haggard]

Depends on where you are at. In Nebraska it doesn't make much sense, but is valid here in Texas.

With federal law being the way that it is it actually makes perfect sense for an LEO anywhere.

[LSP552]

With federal law being the way that it is it actually makes perfect sense for an LEO anywhere.

Must admit, I'm thinking about adding a CCW. I don't see any negatives.

Ken

[LSP972]

Must admit, I'm thinking about adding a CCW.



Because of all the traveling you must do these days?

Have you run across any locale where your retired creds weren't good enough? I ask because Marie and I are planning some travel in the fall; and I have yet to put these retired creds to the test outside of our state.

.

[Chuck Haggard]

Because of all the traveling you must do these days?

Have you run across any locale where your retired creds weren't good enough? I ask because Marie and I are planning some travel in the fall; and I have yet to put these retired creds to the test outside of our state.

.

LEOs when out of state, even with LEOSA, are NOT exempt from that "gun free school zone" BS. Seriously. Was at a class at the tac conference being taught by a lawyer experienced in this area, he threw up a map of Phoenix on one of his slides, but it could be any big city, which showed that it was physically unpossible to drive across that city without violating the law multiple times.

[LSP972]

LEOs when out of state, even with LEOSA, are NOT exempt from that "gun free school zone" BS. Seriously. Was at a class at the tac conference being taught by a lawyer experienced in this area, he threw up a map of Phoenix on one of his slides, but it could be any big city, which showed that it was physically unpossible to drive across that city without violating the law multiple times.

I understand that. What I was asking about involves professional courtesy (or, more to the point, the lack thereof in certain locales I have been to) to a LEO- active or retired- as opposed to observance of reciprocity priviledges on a "civilian" CCW permit.

.

[Tamara]

As my friend Johnny Guest said "Professional courtesy would be not breaking the law in my jurisdiction."

[LSP552]

I understand that. What I was asking about involves professional courtesy (or, more to the point, the lack thereof in certain locales I have been to) to a LEO- active or retired- as opposed to observance of reciprocity priviledges on a "civilian" CCW permit.

.

I'm spending time on the East coast. I'd hate to trust professional courtesy concerning guns to folks who grew up with the guns are evil culture. Makes me nervous.

Ken

[Chuck Whitlock]

Depends on where you are at. In Nebraska it doesn't make much sense, but is valid here in Texas.


With federal law being the way that it is it actually makes perfect sense for an LEO anywhere.

Chuck,

My comment was based on my understanding of the governing NE statutes (for NE LEOs), based upon my reading of the statutes.

It would be too long-winded a tangent, but I would be happy to get into the specifics via PM or email if you would like.

[Chuck Haggard]

As my friend Johnny Guest said "Professional courtesy would be not breaking the law in my jurisdiction."

^This^

[Beat Trash]

As for the LEO/CCW permit, I've done it since Ohio came out with the CCW permit. At least in my state, you don't have to pay to take the classes. A Department letterhead stating you are full time LEO and qualified within the last 12 months. Depending on the county Sheriff, their fee's are waived for LEO's. So why not have it?